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Author Topic: Warp Travel, Andromeda and Tyranids  (Read 3416 times)

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Offline Lord Commissar Spiteful

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Warp Travel, Andromeda and Tyranids
« on: October 24, 2009, 11:55:28 AM »
Alright, I admit it, I got bored while studying for exams. So I dug up an old critical hit article that i had and had a look at warp travel times.

After a bit of maths it seems that Andromeda (the nearest galaxy) is only 2 500 000 Light Years away. High Speed warp travel (that is to say High-Risk travel) indicates that I can take an Imperial ship there in upward of 190 years (Real Time). After I played around a bit with the comparison of time in the warp to real time i came up with about 5 years to those on board.

So: Assuming best case scenario:
You can make a round trip to Andromeda and back in a little under 10 years. The rest of the Imperium sees this as 400 years time. Now that was a cool thought. Intergalactic travel should also be less dangerous in terms of warp storms and warp denizens.

And I never believed that nonsense about travel without the light of the astronomicon. During the worst warp storms ever (just before the rise of the Emperor on Terra) the Adeptus Mechanicus sent out hundreds of missions "blind" into the galaxy to start colonising/looking for technology. So personally I can't see what most of the fuss is about. Especially with navigators on board.

Anyways, that's the first interesting bit of info that i found.

Next I superimposed a map of the directions of the Tyranids invasion on a galaxy map of the Milky Way (from NASA). After some research and extrapolating I saw that the earliest tyranids came a full 90 Degrees from the nearest galaxies. Behemoth and Kraken Came from NGC 1023 (or that direction) with secondary fleets from the direction of Andromeda reaching us about 250 years later.

Now I know that the writers never intended this to happen (or never thought on such a grand scale), but from here you can see that if the Tyranids were coming from that direction chances are that after a few more waves of the scale of Kraken or Leviathan we won't encounter any more for millennia to come. There are just too many other tempting/tasty superclusters and galaxies in different directions, indicating that even if the tyranids are a potential universe destroying threat, we'll only be getting small splinters for millennia to come (and that we've probably already copped the worst of it for the forseeable future).

Anyways, I'll post up my hastily edited paint modifications of the Real Milky way galaxy with directions etc to Andromeda and the main axis of the tyranid hive fleets later. 

Just thought that this would be for a fun bit of discussion (with flimsy evidence now rather than "tyranids pawn all OMG" ;))

Enjoy guys. I'll be around

Spite

PS Congrats to Gornon. Definitely Deserved it Mate!
@Mods: Sorry for starting another tyranid thread. Sure you are sick of them by now.


EDIT: oops spelling and changed 25 yers to 250 years. Miss-type
« Last Edit: October 25, 2009, 03:19:00 AM by Commissar Spiteful »
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Offline Benis

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Re: Warp Travel, Andromeda and Tyranids
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2009, 12:11:09 PM »
It's always interesting with theories, even if the resources 40k has concerning the subjects your theory is based on are limited. I found some things I would like to point out though.

Intergalactic travel should also be less dangerous in terms of warp storms and warp denizens.

As far as I can remember there is no information concerning intergalactic warp space but I guess your assumptions are correct while at the same time it might also mean that you are very correct: that the warp space is a dead calm sea, with no "winds" and "streams" so the speed might be extremely slow or even impossible with conventional warp drives.


Next I superimposed a map of the directions of the Tyranids invasion on a galaxy map of the Milky Way (from NASA). After some research and extrapolating I saw that the earliest tyranids came a full 90 Degrees from the nearest galaxies. Behemouth and Kraken Came from NGC 1023 (or that direction) with secondary fleets from the direction of andromeda reaching us about 25 years later.

We know that the Tyranids have done recon on our galaxy so I'm unsure if the position of their intrusions can actually be derived as "the direction they came from",
 it might just be the best routes they found into our galaxy.

It is all interesting and it would be fun if the GW writers aimed a little bit more on indepth information concerning the 40k universe, but I guess warporn sells better.

Offline Fugitive

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Re: Warp Travel, Andromeda and Tyranids
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2009, 05:44:37 PM »
And I never believed that nonsense about travel without the light of teh astronomicon. During the worst warp storms ever (just before the rise of the Emperor on Terra) the Adeptus Mechanicus sent out hundreds of missions "blind" into the galaxy to start colonising/looking for technology. So personally I can't see wat most of the fuss is about. Especially with navigators on board.

Well, I agree that warp travel is certainly possible without the astronomicon. But isn't it established that it is slower? Ships have to make shorter "warp jumps" to stop and make new navigatory calculations? Although considering the size of the imperial fleet it is surprising they haven't made any attempts to reach other galaxies (if your calculations are correct) . It would certainly be in the interest of at least some imperial factions to explore other galaxies.

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Offline Galadhar

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Re: Warp Travel, Andromeda and Tyranids
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2009, 09:51:44 PM »
Now that's an interesting idea. I agree with Commissar Spiteful, that the lack of warp storms might make travel slower, but that doesn't seem to be a reason not to do it all together. I can see why the imperial navy wouldn't bother (as the threat to the imperium has to be their number one priority), but an overly ambitious rouge trader might chance something this crazy. After all the rewards could be huge (even if your factor in something more like a 30 year round trip). I think that GW actually missed a trick with their new Rouge Trader game here. An adventure to another galaxy is something that most 40k fans would go mad for, as they probably never thought it would be possible... But it would be scary as hell to just arrive in a galaxy swarming with tyranids though.

I'm sure that GW will probably just try and explain why mankind can't reach other galaxies though. I just don't theink that GW are finished with this one.

Offline twilight_reaver

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Re: Warp Travel, Andromeda and Tyranids
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2009, 10:06:56 PM »
It's possible that warp travel like this is indeed impossible without the currents of the warp.  This might account for why the old ones used webway travel instead of direct warp travel... because before they created the psyker races, there was no disturbances in the warp to help push them around.  Basically they would have had to go slower than light and seed the webway gates, before they were all "zoom zoom!"


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Offline Lord Commissar Spiteful

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Re: Warp Travel, Andromeda and Tyranids
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2009, 04:02:29 AM »




Alright, those are two of the pics. Now to get a look at those posts :D

The only information that I know of of life outside the galaxy is that of Imperial Probes returning information of Orks outside the galaxy. So, being orks FTL or sublight travel may have been possible, but FTL is most likely.

As for warp currents, well it's possible that they ships may become becalmed between galaxies, but I can imagine (in vivid GW imagery) ships riding the equivalent of the "roaring forties" into the next galaxy, plunging deeper and deeper into the warp to ensure they keep moving.

As for navigation without the Light of the astronomicon, well my little red ring I drew on my first picture shows the limit of the astronomicon in the first place. Normal astral navigation can come into play once you come out of the warp. It's not as if you are aiming for a planet or even a system, but an entire galaxy. Once there navigation will be tricky. Short jumps into systems to look for life is needed. Let's face it though, it's not like you need pinpoint navigation. As long as you know which direction the milky way is you can go home, and local choirs can be established on small habitable planets to guide you in small trade routes. If serious thought is given to the expedition we can plan our way around not having an emperor to guide you.

Also, should the tyranids have come through here (and i'm thinking that they may have) it would give valuable insight onto their axis of attack, with the added benefit of getting behind the spearhead. Tyranid fleets are a bit like ant armies. Massive swarms, but they do have a beginning and an end.

Final thoughts that come to me is that since there is a chance that warp-entities are low in the new galaxy (assuming nids have come through here before) your faith in the emperor may spawn smaller, benevolent entities. 

Anyways, those area a few thoughts that i have. Wonder what you thnk. Forgive the poor paint-job
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Offline Sir_Godspeed

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Re: Warp Travel, Andromeda and Tyranids
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2009, 02:46:08 PM »
Wow, this thread is beginning to cover a huge area, but I'll comment on what I can.

First of all, I've never really heard of any extra-galactical reports, neither concerning orks or anything. But if it exists, then it exists.

As much a fan of the Emperor I am in all His Awesomeness, I must admit that while the Imperium is pragmatic on small-scale it is too rigid and dogmatic on a large scale. The Mechanicus should have begun the research on additional and more efficient Astronomicans millennia ago, without the need of an Emperor and smaller scale if needed be. I agree with you there. But this is the grimdark of the far future after all. And the signluarity of the Terran Beacon does serve a unifying purpose. I suppose it's politics as much as anything.

The thing with Warp-Entities though, is that they come in a variety of types, including and not limited to the Chaos Gods, Daemons (possibly lesser Chaos Gods, or the Chaos Gods are greater Daemons, it's a bit sketchy) which are anthromorphizations of the intense emotions of living beings.
Then there's beings like the Eldar Gods, with possibly the Stachild belonging in that group, which seems to the anthr. of ideals, archetypes or whatnot of a culture.
Then there's the things like the Enslavers and such, which seems to be older and less reliant on direct soul-sustenance. To be frank, no one knows exactly what these things are.

Chaos Gods would always be "bad", due to their nature; they are by defintion single-minded and unrestrained. They have no ultimate plan except from following their inherent nature. Khorne rages for the sake of rage, Tzeentch plots for the sake of plotting, etc.

Cultural/Racial gods will probably vary with the beliefs of the culture that spawned them, and probably also the different opinions of the culture. (ie. Aspects of Khaine). Perhaps they are less common that we think, seeing as our major example is from the Eldar, who are after all a very powerful psyker-race. Though it would be very interesting to see if a NEW god would spawn in the new Galaxy, or if the consciousness of the old one would expand to encompass this new "pasture".

Wow, that was a mouthful. Hopefully it made some sense.

Offline Gornon

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Re: Warp Travel, Andromeda and Tyranids
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2009, 09:13:17 PM »
First off, thanks for the congratulations, I appreciate it, Spiteful.  The other is that I am impressed with the amount of effort you put into making your maps and figuring out the galactic coordinates.

Quote
The only information that I know of of life outside the galaxy is that of Imperial Probes returning information of Orks outside the galaxy.

Hmm, I've heard that, too.  Can't quote the source, though.  The question is do we take that information seriously.  I recall the information to be very old; Rogue Trader days even.

Quote
Final thoughts that come to me is that since there is a chance that warp-entities are low in the new galaxy (assuming nids have come through here before) your faith in the emperor may spawn smaller, benevolent entities.

Hmmm.  I like that idea and I certainly like the idea of little warp creatures popping up that aren't automatically evil.  I would think that little entities have a better chance at popping up in this other galaxy. 

I would imagine that 'little gods' in the Milky Way don't form often for two reasons.  The first, is that the Big Four and their minions probably eat them fast.  The second is that warp creatures are formed by emotions and the like merging together; not only is positive emotions in the Milky Way smaller than negative, but the rip-roaring currents probably tear a lot of bundles of emotions apart before they can form anything resembling an entity.  It's like a salmon laying eggs in the rapids. 

Local, small gods, spirits, saints, ect get away because they form in sheltered nooks where the waters are slower moving.  If they move away from their shrine, village, hive city, ect, they step out into the big currents and get torn apart.  A quiet, calm galaxy would allow multiple, smaller, galactic level entities to form since there would be less intense currents to rip bundles of emotions apart.

Also, it occurs to me if the currents are slower, and the gods less nasty, psykers can let rip with more powers.  They will have a much smaller chance of getting eaten and so they can turn up the gas without worrying about attracting something nasty to their soul.  Also, they might be less prone to being insane; since there would be less nasty visions awaiting them in their dreams.

Quote
Anyways, those area a few thoughts that i have. Wonder what you thnk. Forgive the poor paint-job

I quite like the map, actually.  Most 40k maps are, is it isometric I'm looking for, and thus its really hard to tell where things are, how big things are, and just how far apart everything is.

Quote
An adventure to another galaxy is something that most 40k fans would go mad for, as they probably never thought it would be possible... But it would be scary as hell to just arrive in a galaxy swarming with tyranids though.

I quite like that idea.  It might make a fun Rogue Trader adventure.  It would certainly be a fun way to add a new race in.  Sort of what like GW did with the Old World and New World in Fantasy.  Pockets of 'Race X' could be found in the Milky Way, and races from the Milky Way are invading the new galaxy looking for adventure, knowledge, plunder, ect.

Quote
It's possible that warp travel like this is indeed impossible without the currents of the warp.

As much as I stated I like the idea of adventures in a new galaxy above; I do kinda agree with this statement.  I always thought that Warp currents between galaxy's were non-existent.  That was why we would not find Khorne worshipers in another galaxy, its influence simply can't cross the barren wasteland of emotions in the voids between galaxies. 

However, it would not be that hard to imagine that there might be a 'jet stream' of Warp energy that ships could travel on between the galaxies.  Since the stream is so small and intense, the differing god's influences can't cross the void to another galaxy on them; it would be like swimming up river.  Differing galaxies' gods would depend on their followers to spread their influence in new galaxies.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2009, 09:28:21 PM by Gornon »
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Offline Guildmage Aech

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Re: Warp Travel, Andromeda and Tyranids
« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2009, 04:16:06 PM »
But there is the theory that things get weirder the further you go from the centre. Consider Macharius's crusade that faltered at edge of the halos stars, quoting from the 3ed IG codex "The Halo is no place for living men, it is a realm populated by ghosts of centuries past and sirens call to men..." doom and gloom etc about lightless depths that you really don't want to go to.

On the other side of the map has an area listed as the Ghoul Stars... I'm not convinced they sound like a nice holiday destination either.

So while in theory a ship could make the journey perhaps the key question is to ask if the crew manages to stay sane as its not much good if they're wibbling too much to turn their ship around and come back and tell you what they found. If there are as many disappeared ghost ships in the halo reaches as some of the stories suggest its unlikely you're going to do much except lose your scoutship. Possibly explains why nids arrive in deep hibernation.

Besides if you did get to a galaxy that nids are coming from theres probably not a lot of things to see except dead worlds and hungry hive ships!
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Offline GaleRazorwind

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Re: Warp Travel, Andromeda and Tyranids
« Reply #9 on: November 1, 2009, 12:48:28 AM »
Hymirl brought up a point I made here about why Nids are the only race to have crossed from one galaxy to another. The conciousness aspect of the Tyranid race, being essentially the Hive Mind, is not a factor to consider. Any people from a normal race like Humans or Eldar that went on a long trip into the vast expanses of the intergalactic void would most likely become insane due to the sheer emptiness involved, but for the Tyranids, nobody goes insane because they are either dormant or completely controlled by the will of the Hive Mind, which seems to be a primal psychic force that, despite its obvious intelligence, is driven only by its immortal hunger. It has no feelings or emotions to bog it down.
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