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Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Age of Sigmar - thoughts?
« on: July 4, 2015, 03:25:48 PM »
So what is everyone's onion of Age of Sigmar, now that the rules are out for free access?

There are some things I find odd so far.  First being that I couldn't find anything about matches that are uneven in model count or wounds, now that point vales areally gone.  The other is that there are some messed up ways to get benefits for units.   Take Grail Knights for instance.  I get rerolls to hit if I "raise a grail or goblet and shout 'for the lady' in a heroic voice"?  Or reiksgard getting rerolls if you have a more impressive mustache than your opponent?

What the crap?
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Re: Age of Sigmar - thoughts?
« Reply #1 on: July 4, 2015, 03:43:56 PM »
It just seems strange and unnatural for the rules to be so readily available. Unclean even.
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Offline Slick Samos

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Re: Age of Sigmar - thoughts?
« Reply #2 on: July 4, 2015, 04:33:22 PM »
I tentatively suggest people play with the old fashioned point values in their army books until someone (probably a student on their summer holidays) updates all the points values for this rule set...
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Offline Calamity

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Re: Age of Sigmar - thoughts?
« Reply #3 on: July 4, 2015, 04:40:13 PM »
So...this is all really happening then?  :-\

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Re: Age of Sigmar - thoughts?
« Reply #4 on: July 4, 2015, 04:54:26 PM »
I'm not sure what to think about this. Who knew they'd change their business model so radically? ???

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Re: Age of Sigmar - thoughts?
« Reply #5 on: July 4, 2015, 04:55:43 PM »
We always dared them to do it.....

Offline khaine

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Re: Age of Sigmar - thoughts?
« Reply #6 on: July 4, 2015, 07:14:44 PM »
They seem to really be heading for a game abut “fun” and trying to break up the 2000pts vs 2000pts (Or whatever value you want) mind set that has become so firmly entrenched over the last 15 years or so of gaming.

“Fun” of course is an objective concept; I’m already looking forward to arguing out the moustache rule… Does a real moustache trump a fake moustache of any size? Does the moustache need to be attached to my face or could I shave it off and keep it in a box? Could I sell my moustache to another player? It’s light hearted and a step away from the uber seriousness that has ruled Warhammer (And 40K) over the last few years. And if you’re gaming group doesn’t like it, don’t use it.

The no points seems to have thrown a lot of people, but go back to the early days of GW games and while they did have points values the random rolls involved in a lot of list building meant the points were pretty much irrelevant. Yes in WFB a Chaos warrior was xxpts, he stayed the same pts if you rolled a mutation that meant he suffered fear against everything or if you rolled for a Heavy Bolter (Yes, in Fantasy) We’ve also all known for years that the points values on a lot of units make no sense and are not balanced.
The question will really come down to how the rules and players will balance things. I was reading a post on FB the other day about a guy who had come up with a scenario where one army attacked a smaller but well fortified force, his regular opponents wouldn’t play the scenario because “It wasn’t points balanced” and “Was unfair”. Does a game need to be points balanced to be fun? Hell no.

That’s not to say that massively one sided games are the way to go, just that sometimes a heroic last stand type game can provide a great afternoons entertainment, something that very few people will even try “because points values”.

Now I’m not saying that AOS has got everything right, there is a chance that a company that has been making games for years has totally screwed it up, but for the first time in years I’m looking at giving Fantasy a try and maybe just having some good old fashioned “fun” rather than the super serious-ultra competitive stuff that has been the norm lately.

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Offline Spectral Arbor

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Re: Age of Sigmar - thoughts?
« Reply #7 on: July 4, 2015, 09:01:51 PM »
I imagine that, from their business perspective, the "serious gamers" have moved to 40k anyhow. This gives them a completely different style of game to sell.

Part of the scary part of getting into Warhammer was that you need to spend a gajilliion dollars. The rules have no cost barrier now. By "encouraging" imbalanced armies to be played. That way, the Poboy in the group can still play against Timmy Trustfund. Nobody complains about not having enough models, since everyone is making their own rules up anyhow. I guess... we never had problems with proxies. :)

Again, from their business perspective, this allows them to appeal to a different audience than they had been doing. The... I can't even call it casual gamer. I consider myself a casual / competitive gamer. They could be appealing to the "Disposable" gamer? Someone that can drop into a game for a short while, pick up some simple rules [I haven't read the rules, I don't know] and play for a little while, then enjoy the models as display pieces. Maybe? It would be different from previous audiences, I think.

It's not a type of game that would appeal to me, but I wasn't spending money on Fantasy, so they haven't lost anything there. From what I hear, they're planning to change the scale of the game to maybe being a Formation's size? Something you could spend a few hundred dollars on models [no books to buy!] and then have an army you could play. Models are being changed, getting larger? I saw some comparisons, and dudes that looked like wingless Sanguinary Guard were larger than a tactical marine.

Given that balance is being tossed out the window, I don't mind the social rules. I'm the guy at the store that's getting into it to that degree anyhow, and mostly lacking in a sense of shame, would giddily compare moustaches for a reroll. Even if I had to draw it on my face with a marker. I'd totally bust a move for a bonus to hit in 40k. I already yell Waaagh! even if I'm not playing Orks. I think that it would be a silly, fun game to play, which might actually draw me in if I had the disposable income, and even a vague sense of balance between armies. I'll have to do some research.
« Last Edit: July 4, 2015, 09:04:55 PM by Spectral Arbor »

Offline Dread

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Re: Age of Sigmar - thoughts?
« Reply #8 on: July 4, 2015, 09:08:25 PM »
I've been playing fantasy since 5th ed. Now I'm not sure what to think, seems like there is no structure anymore. I own 6 different armies and can't make heads or tails of this "new rules" stuff. It seems to play something like the old warhammer quest but just not in a dungeon or against card generated opponents.
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Offline Spectral Arbor

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Re: Age of Sigmar - thoughts?
« Reply #9 on: July 4, 2015, 11:14:07 PM »
HAHAHAHAHAHA!

I just read the "rules"! It's satire. I didn't realize it until I got to the end, where they say, "In a game as detailed and wide-ranging as WH:AOS..." All FOUR pages of rules.

But in all seriousness, house ruling a point structure based on the few stats shouldn't be too hard. For example, 10 points for a MV 5, SV 4+, BV 7, W 1 model. Assuming no range, hit and wound on 4+, with no rend, single Dam.

I mean, it's completely arbitrary based on looking at a couple units, and a single read through of the rules, but figuring out points for an army shouldn't take much more than an afternoon. Add a point / subtract a point for each increase / decrease in stats. Add a point for every 6" of ranged weaponry. Add some reasonable value for extra abilities, that sort of thing.

Again, moving away from the structure of 40k towards something different makes this game NOT 40k without Power Armour. It seems like it would appeal to people like Forgefather Vulkan Tangi. ;)

Given that there's no comparison tables, a unit's combat ability seems pretty predictable. Rend has a somewhat variable effect, depending on how "elite" the victim is. That said, looking through the Orc Codex, I only noticed a single Rend Value of "3" on one unit. Characters seem to have a rend value of 2, even the best of the best. So that's nice.

I imagine that within a month, someone will emerge with having the recognized "unofficial point set" for AoS. For the competitive types. But I don't think that's what this game is. Having read the "rules" I'm convinced this is aimed at the "Disposable" gamer. It is also somewhat interesting, as games with simpler rules often have deeper nuggets of strategy and tactics. Chess being a prime example. There seems to be a lessening of random... which is good.

*cough*hack*urk* I *huh* might just *hreee* try this *glurt* out. I really do like the Lizardman models... Who wouldn't want to kill pointy-ears with dinosaurs?

Though I feel dirty, this might just get me back into WH. Wow.
« Last Edit: July 4, 2015, 11:16:22 PM by Spectral Arbor »

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Re: Age of Sigmar - thoughts?
« Reply #10 on: July 5, 2015, 12:23:11 AM »
We always dared them to do it.....

No matter what happens, it'll still be viewed as *wrong* and *how dare they* do this to their *true fans* that will never support them after this! Rinse, repeat.
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Offline Spectral Arbor

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Re: Age of Sigmar - thoughts?
« Reply #11 on: July 5, 2015, 12:53:53 AM »
We always dared them to do it.....

No matter what happens, it'll still be viewed as *wrong* and *how dare they* do this to their *true fans* that will never support them after this! Rinse, repeat.

As mouldy-fresh as old grumps complaining about, "The kids these days?" People don't always like change. I don't like the changes of 7th edition 40k, the game is wrecked for me as it is. But I like the look of the changes to AoS, given that I'd be willing to put the effort into creating points values for the units. Of course, I'm not a long time player of WHFB, haven't played since 5th. Sometimes things are wrong for some, that are right for others. Dif'rent strokes and all that.

Complaining about the complainers is complaining about complaining. Complaining about the complainer complaining about the complainers is complaining about complaining about complaining. I'm not sure at what point irony becomes satire, as my English classes are now 15 years behind me. I'm pretty sure we're in the right territory, though.

The game genuinely looks to be an effort to bring new blood into the game. Simpler rules, a viable game with only 5 or so units, completely different structure. Not unlike going from 2nd edition 40k to 3rd. Even more so. So, yeah, this is kind of a kick in the pants for anyone that bought into the last edition / End Times. Those people have legitimate beefs to hash. As it is, the game has no balancing factor, except what two players wish to bring to the table. Easy for friends in a basement, harder for pickup-players. Dismissing that, is a serious case of cranial-rectal interlock.

These complaints aren't mine, like I said. I'm interested in the game now. I wasn't for the last 10 years or so. I'm interested because of the dramatic changes.

Offline khaine

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Re: Age of Sigmar - thoughts?
« Reply #12 on: July 5, 2015, 04:22:48 AM »
HAHAHAHAHAHA!

I just read the "rules"! It's satire. I didn't realize it until I got to the end, where they say, "In a game as detailed and wide-ranging as WH:AOS..." All FOUR pages of rules.

I've seen a lot of comments on the number of pages of rules, now I don't have the last WFB rule book so I dug out my 40k rule book (close enough) and did some counting...

208 pages...

52(ish) pages of that is special rules, weapon reference tables and general reference tables... With the Warscroll system covering units now you don't need any of that in the rule book.

47(ish) pages on preparing for battle. How to build an army (No points so not needed) pages of scenarios (That the majority of 40k players don't ever use) and Warlord tables (Again Warscrolls)

7 pages of terrain... We could live without.

31 pages of vehicle and character rules. 10 "pages" of that is pretty pictures of models, another 10 that would fit better on Warscrolls and a good deal dedicated to tables that most people probably never look at as they have either memorised them or use the reference cards.

That leaves 71(ish) pages. Scrap the pictures, oversized title text, tables and other "junk" and you could probably get it down to 20 pages.

So 30 pages of solid rules. AOS trims that down even more, at first glance I think a lot of that shedding comes down to the Warscrolls, you don’t need to be told how to work out number of attacks or what you need to hit or to wound because it’s all on the scroll, something that has worked very well for both WarmaHoards and X-Wing with their card system.

So yes it's a big change but one that seems to be drawing back the intrest of some players with both real and penned on moustaches.  :)

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Re: Age of Sigmar - thoughts?
« Reply #13 on: July 5, 2015, 07:30:51 AM »
I'm really excited to start fantasy now with Age of Sigmar. I think the rules are really cool. I like how monsters actually get weaker when they are damaged.
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Re: Age of Sigmar - thoughts?
« Reply #14 on: July 5, 2015, 10:12:23 AM »
I'd like to know what building structure to use.
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Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Re: Age of Sigmar - thoughts?
« Reply #15 on: July 5, 2015, 01:28:00 PM »
The way my LGS is looking at it is that maybe the way to balance the game is through number of wounds in a list.
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Re: Age of Sigmar - thoughts?
« Reply #16 on: July 5, 2015, 01:35:59 PM »
I don't play Warhammer at all but reading the reactions to this completely whacked rules set and perusing the Warscrolls has been very, very entertaining.  No one plays Ogre Kingdoms so I perused the Warscroll and immediately found this gem:



Read that rule.  Now, read it again.  It sets up no parameters for what you can bribe someone with.  Sexual favors, actual money, anything.  Just go nuts.   ???

It's Magic The Gathering: Unhinged.  I don't play that, either, I was startled several times when some fat weirdo with bad body odor would scream something in the store.  Example:

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Re: Age of Sigmar - thoughts?
« Reply #17 on: July 6, 2015, 09:09:47 AM »
I feel like GW took a salty dump on my face and the one true miracle is that they didn't make me pay for it. I've invested hundreds of dollars in warhammer fantasy and I'm not going to stop playing it just because of this. I wish they'd made some official ruling and settled some long standing disputes in warhammer fantasy before they'd amputated it. That's not to say I'm refusing to play AoS with the models I already have, but it's not a game that I feel like investing money in at all.

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Re: Age of Sigmar - thoughts?
« Reply #18 on: July 6, 2015, 10:10:43 AM »
The rules seem like a thinly veiled attempt to copy Kings of War.  I'm happy with shorter and fewer rules.  Both 40K and Fantasy Battle suffered from rules bloat for years, but I can't get very excited about what I'm reading with Age of Sigmar, because I can't get my head around how it's supposed to be balanced, and it still relies on the D6 system.  There also seem to be some rules which are rather too opaque, and some rules are just funny (for all the wrong reasons).

If GW had really wanted to make a revolutionary change, they could have converted dice with more outcomes, or even better, opted for percentile dice.  That would have made me think about giving these rules a go.
« Last Edit: July 6, 2015, 10:11:49 AM by Irisado »
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Re: Age of Sigmar - thoughts?
« Reply #19 on: July 6, 2015, 01:17:42 PM »
I just went through the rules and, while not exactly impressed, I can see it at least being playable. I actually don't mind rule-bloat, though, as long as the rules make things interesting. This doesn't have much to recommend it as "fun" so much as it's simply "easy." I guess that's a selling point for people, but not for me.

Eh. There has never been a healthy WHFB group in these parts, and nothing seems likely to change. If I'm going to play a game this simplistic, I'll just break out a board game. This won't get my hobby-juices flowing.

 


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