Topic: Harlequin Revision - EO!

[HarleyQuinn]

Out of curiosity, has anyone ever attempted to compare the two rules sets w/ standard die results?  It would eliminate the luck factor and provide a better gauge of how the rules differ.

As an example: If your 6-man Troupe charges a 12-man squad of Space Marines, count 18 of the 24 "to hit" rolls as hits, then take straight odds as "to wound" rolls.  Apply Save rolls the same.  FoF movements are always 3.5".  Morale checks always roll 7 (3+4), unless Dread Mask is used, in which case you can make the third die oscillate between 3 and 4 every other Morale check roll.  Your opponent does the same.

Think this would help identify unbalancing powers easier?

-HQ

[InfinityCircuit]

That's what I attempted to do, HarleyQuinn, but in a game sense.  I'd recommend reading my last post for the last results.

Just for fun though, on my favorite Harlequin Setup (6 Harlequins, PW, HK, Leader w/ DM, Tangles, Neuro-D) counting in Hit & Fade against SM

Old rules: 2.7 Marines Dead

New Rules: 3.7 Marines Dead

A whole Marine difference in deaths on charge.  Got to go now but that's just a taste

BTW with Mask of Fear and Dread Mask average roll will fail

[Rasmus]

Hit and fade is changed, and I have uploaded a new copy.
Do you think this will add without overpowering, then?
I also put in the "have to have heavy weapon"-line for the Spiritwalker.

[Roy]

I don't understand how you could think furious charge is more powerful than re-rolling to wound rolls?
Statistically, you will inflict more wound with a reroll.

I won't bother arguing the point beyond that, I just don't see how the logic works.

[Rasmus]

Well, how about the current incarnation? How do you all like that? It does not lessen the power of the kiss, which furious charge does.

[InfinityCircuit]

Thanks Rasmus, the new list looks good.  I'll try to play a game or two with the new Hit & Fade and see how much it changes things.

Also I think that for the Shadowseer it should say, "as in CJ39, with some changes noted below" as I've glossed over the points change a couple times--but maybe it's just me.  (I remember similar problems with the EoT 13th Company List)

[Rasmus]

Ok. I will look over the wording then.

[InfinityCircuit]

I don't understand how you could think furious charge is more powerful than re-rolling to wound rolls?
Statistically, you will inflict more wound with a reroll.

I won't bother arguing the point beyond that, I just don't see how the logic works.

Furious Charge allows wounding vehicles on charges, allows wounding on Talos on charge, and is the same against T5 as a reroll.  Granted, a reroll is better against T4 but nonetheless the flexibility of Furious Charge makes me against it.

EDIT: In case you still don't understand, look at the DE Agoniser and the Punisher.  IMHO, the Agonizer is like Furious Charge.  Very versatile, and often the same as the Punisher.  The Punisher is like re-rolls to wound--on a strict power level it is better, but in reality not so much.

[Manny-Kun]

i would have to personally say that furious charge would proabley be best if it stays for a reason i just thought of. on the to wound chart it, a S3 cant make a wound against a T7 enemys. such as an upgraded carnifix. sure there are ways to still kill it but what if that carnifix is left and your best chance units are dead? (DJ is the only one on my mind right now)

well thats the only situation where i can think of furious charge being a need. unless there is an equipment that helps and i am not aware of it... 

[InfinityCircuit]

i would have to personally say that furious charge would proabley be best if it stays for a reason i just thought of. on the to wound chart it, a S3 cant make a wound against a T7 enemys. such as an upgraded carnifix. sure there are ways to still kill it but what if that carnifix is left and your best chance units are dead? (DJ is the only one on my mind right now)

well thats the only situation where i can think of furious charge being a need. unless there is an equipment that helps and i am not aware of it... 

Harlequin's Kisses are quite nice in this situation.

The problem is that I think being able to wound T7 enemies, etc. would make Harlequins too strong.  We aren't trying to fix all their problems--the problems are what define a race.  We are instead trying to bring them up to the power level of other armies and make a fun list.  This is why I'm glad that Furious Charge is gone.

[Manny-Kun]

Yes i would agree the Harlequin kiss is quite a good suggestion for such enemys as the carnifex.

To me, wounding T7 enemys wouldnt make the Harlequin too strong, well considering if it is balance correctly with the rest of the army. I see every army has a way to handle tough models (T7 and armour 14 and such) but i dont see anyway the Harlequins could handle a T7 model.

i will like to state i dont want to make the Harlequin powerful but able to handle such situations. i believe it would be some what unfair if your opponent sends out 3 carnifex with T7 upgrades and would take the fun out of a challanging battle if you are already aware you have no chance agaisnt such an enemy.

hmm but then again theres them venoms with the fusion upgrade..

Also i dont really think a re-roll is really needed considering they have high weapon skill gives them the odds of being able to hit their opponent at a 3+.

sorry if i sound whiney 

[InfinityCircuit]

I played a game today with the list I have in this forum.  See that post for details.  I used the current re-roll hit Hit & Fade.  I was very pleased.  Furious Charge wasn't needed to kill the Carnifexes--a total of 30 or so Harlequin's Kiss attacks put an end to those beasts .  The re-roll hit was balanced, and didn't make the PW more powerful than the Kiss, IMHO.  I didn't see any problems with this incarnation of the list.  (Although I couldn't make cover or assault saves to save my life )

Manny-Kun: we appreciate your ruminating, it helps us organize our thoughts

[Manny-Kun]

squeee. okies ill take you word for it. just with my luck and all ill be seeing alot of T7 models on the battlefield.. 

....... 

oh poo i just re-read the Harlequin's Kiss info... i forgot it wounds on a roll of 2+... Whoops-e-dee.. never mind the above.. 

[Rasmus]

I tested out the re-roll hit Hit & Fade as well, and I was pleased with the results. it solves the problem of the Harlequins missing a lot of wounds on 5+ against marines when using powerweapons, as you get a lot more hits to try on, but with furious charge you just bucher them. I am a lot happier with it this way. Why didn't we di this in the first place, and go for wounds instead?
*smacks head*

[Roy]

Hmm, yes, I like the new hit & fade.

But I'm not sure my opponents will be as pleased. "Are you kidding me? 41 attacks on the charge, and reroll failed to hit rolls? Never mind the reality of the situation.

And, of course, it's overkill against many squads out there. Guard, gretchin, gaunts, guardians, and similar units, but these squads will be 1/3 of the price as well.

The mechanic works, I agree, though I could wish there was a mechanic that more accurately portrayed pure skill, rather than an insane attack rate, but that was a digression.

[InfinityCircuit]

It's good to know it's somewhat fixed.

One more slight issue I have with wording: On Masque of the Dark Veil, it says you 'may' start rolling on turn 1 for reserves.  Does mean you don't have to?

Last night, unable to think, I got started on the topic of retinues.  This is pure digresion btw.  I was thinking how Harlequins didn't have retinues, and other races do.  However, then I got to thinking about if retinues would somehow make Harlequins too strong.  Then I looked at Masque of the Dark Veil.  It seems to me the biggest weakness and balancing factor of this Masque is the fact that often troupes arrive without character support or vice-versa.  A retinue would solve this problem, but probably also make the Masque overpowered.  Therefore my conclusion is that we don't want retinues.

[Rasmus]

But there is a Retinue; for the Shadowseer. And yes, I will look over the wording for the Masque of the Dark Veil.

[Fenix7729]

hey everyone, ive read most of the post on this thread and just got the latest version of the harly rules.  but im still a little confused.  im not sure if i just didnt read it or if it wasnt talked about but please help me on this one.  does the holo suit still cut the opponents WS in half (rounding up) in CC like it says in CJ 39 along with the other rules or is the opponents WS the stay the same?  and also the mask of fear, does that cut the opponents Ld by 2 or just 1.  CJ39 said 1 but the EoT troll issue said to cut it by 2.  thanks for the help and good to join the site and u all are doing a great job with the codex. 

i really need to know those things by tonight because im going to go and hopefully play my first game in about 4 months tommorow.  CANT WAIT!

Rasmus: can u please PM me the address to the main GW headquarters.  ill help out the harly cause by sending a in a copy of ur codex with all the appropriate names on it. (not mine in other words)  thanks.

[InfinityCircuit]

hey everyone, ive read most of the post on this thread and just got the latest version of the harly rules.  but im still a little confused.  im not sure if i just didnt read it or if it wasnt talked about but please help me on this one.  does the holo suit still cut the opponents WS in half (rounding up) in CC like it says in CJ 39 along with the other rules or is the opponents WS the stay the same?  and also the mask of fear, does that cut the opponents Ld by 2 or just 1.  CJ39 said 1 but the EoT troll issue said to cut it by 2.  thanks for the help and good to join the site and u all are doing a great job with the codex. 

"Special rules...see CJ39 page 6"  This means that the rules for both the Mask of Fear and Holo-suit are the same as they are in CJ39.

i really need to know those things by tonight because im going to go and hopefully play my first game in about 4 months tommorow.  CANT WAIT!

Wonderful!  Good luck.

Rasmus: can u please PM me the address to the main GW headquarters.  ill help out the harly cause by sending a in a copy of ur codex with all the appropriate names on it. (not mine in other words)  thanks.

I don't know the address but I'd definetly recommend putting the names of all the forums listed on pg 10 of the codex in the mail, along with Rasmus's name.

EDIT: Yes the Shadowseer has a retinue, but I meant a retinue of troupers, or at least more than three models in the retinue!

[Rasmus]

Rasmus: can u please PM me the address to the main GW headquarters.  ill help out the harly cause by sending a in a copy of ur codex with all the appropriate names on it. (not mine in other words)  thanks.

  You can find all the adresses you want (depending on who you want your letter to reach) on GWs homepage, under "Contact-information".