Topic: Harlequin Revision - EO!

[Rasmus]

When the entry was made the Wraithlords did not suffer Wraithsight, only Wraithguards did. Since they did not there was never a reason for the Harlequin variant to suffer it either.
This may be modified in the 5th ed update.

[Rasmus]

I am considering revising this for 5th ed, but doing the new layout without some serious violation of copyright is going to be very very tricky.

[IGBunker (-Hela - Finnail-)]

good to here that you are doing a 5th ED one, cant wait for it. im thinking of playing harlequins cause they are so damn cool

[Rasmus]

I got hold of another copy of 5th ed (my last one was misplaced somewhere) so I will get on making a 5th ed rendition of these rules when I get the time, if there is still interest in it.
Also, there was a Pirate-list made a while back - I wonder if I should go through the effort of adopting it to 5th ed as well or just leave it? Harlequins and Squats are first up in either case.

[Wuestenfux]

Well, 5th ed updates would be welcome. 

[Rasmus]

I have been looking into this. There are basically two paths to go:

1. Adapt the current list to 5th ed, disregarding the Codex Eldar entry completely
or
2. Adapt the codex to be an expanded entry from the Codex.

Both have advantages, but it is a LOT of work regardless of pick.

[Khain Mor (/kharandhil)]

I have been looking into this. There are basically two paths to go:

1. Adapt the current list to 5th ed, disregarding the Codex Eldar entry completely
or
2. Adapt the codex to be an expanded entry from the Codex.

Both have advantages, but it is a LOT of work regardless of pick.

I would say that second is a bit better.

The flip belt and dance of death are a bit better in the eldar codex.
A invuln 5+ save is better than 4+ cover save.
You simply can't always use your cover face.

The dance of death rules are pretty good, so no reason to be mad about those.

The 2 main things that concern me are the point costs and weapons.

I wouldn't change too much or add too many units...

GW didn't pul out those new rules out of their butts, they've been tested and they are somewhat reliable. Ignoring these new rules would be a terrible waste.

btw are you planning on doing an update any time soon? My harly force is getting nicely big, up to around 1700 pts lol (with the old rules)

[Rasmus]

Yeah, I should be able to start crunching some numbers in the coming week or so. It will be a while longer after that that it starts to make sense, but now that the Squat-list is just tuning, and not refitting at every revision, I should have more time.

Edit: What I can tell you right now is that the Harlequins have been hit hard with a nerfing-bat, as the profile in the Eldar codex and the options they have been given (and the dropping of several special rules for "simplicity's sake") is a LOT weaker than they were in CJ 39, let alone in RT. So far I have worked out the points for some units, and they are a LOT cheaper than the CJ-list was. I don't want to hype them back up either, but stick to that profile as a base, so that it can be somewhat more accepted than the "omg! 10 10 10 10 10 10!"-statlines that I have seen proposed for some of these units. I have so far just gone through some basics, and the task is made a LOT harder, as a LOT of it has to be cut and reworded not to breach IP. My copy, so far, is an extrapolated copy of the Eldar Codex, breaking apart that entry to make the basis of an armylist.

[Rasmus]

Ok, posted a premilinary math for 5h Ed. Copyright-note at end.

[Zemanova]

OK, posted a preliminary math for 5h Ed. Copyright-note at end.

I've had a look at ur 5th Ed revising and compile a few comments.

Most of ur characters have an I of 7 which is equivalent to that of  Phoenix lord. This seems a little to high. I would recommend u remove one point of initiative & tag it on to BS instead.

The cost of the shuriken cannon on the venom seems a little steep & the fusion gun one the bikes a little cheap. I'd recommend making all of these 10 points.

I think your Jetbikes are to cheap. I had mine costed at 35 when they only had one hand weapon. With 2 I think they are worth closer to 50 (similar to warlock bikers anyway).

Death Jesters are spot on.

Spirit Lord too.

I think the venom could be upped to BS 4 & still justify a price cut to 35Pt's (ala Rhinos & Orc Trucks) I think u could probably remove any references to BS 3 from a Quin list.

Mockingbird also has BS 3 - I'd up it to 4 for an extra 10 Pt's (BS 3 is for guardians).

Are the mimes really meant to be without holo-suits or flip belts?


All in all - good work

[Rasmus]

The cost of the shuriken cannon on the venom seems a little steep & the fusion gun one the bikes a little cheap. I'd recommend making all of these 10 points.

  This was what was the cost in 4th ed. As none of stuff is tested I am sure those can be adjusted.

I think your Jetbikes are to cheap. I had mine costed at 35 when they only had one hand weapon. With 2 I think they are worth closer to 50 (similar to warlock bikers anyway).

  Maths are simple that way. Craftworlder Bike = guardian + bike. Remove cost of guardian to get he pure bike, add a Harlequin and you get the base cost of a Harlequin jetbike. Then this gets tested, and we can see how well that holds up. What would you base it on that the cost is too low?

I think the venom could be upped to BS 4 & still justify a price cut to 35Pt's (ala Rhinos & Orc Trucks) I think u could probably remove any references to BS 3 from a Quin list.

Mockingbird also has BS 3 - I'd up it to 4 for an extra 10 Pt's (BS 3 is for guardians).

   Fair enough, seems they learned how to shoot, simply.

Are the mimes really meant to be without holo-suits or flip belts?

Yes indeed.

[Zemanova]

I think your Jetbikes are to cheap. I had mine costed at 35 when they only had one hand weapon. With 2 I think they are worth closer to 50 (similar to warlock bikers anyway).

  Maths are simple that way. Craftworlder Bike = guardian + bike. Remove cost of guardian to get he pure bike, add a Harlequin and you get the base cost of a Harlequin jetbike. Then this gets tested, and we can see how well that holds up. What would you base it on that the cost is too low?

A guardian bike costs 14 but a warlock bike cost 20 & Autarch bike costs 30.

As a rule of thumb the cost of the bike seems to increase with the potency of the rider.

Also - If u give 5 Quins, bikes, kisses & a troupe leader & do the Math hammer in both offence and defence then absolutely dump on Shining Spears - which should then suggest that they cost more than said Spears for balance.

[cythron]

Not a bad 5th ed revision that  I have a few questions though....
1), Will you be including the Benathai again? Little touches like these guys give the masque a bit of flavour (plus I've still got my models from CJ 17 - it'd be a shame for them to go to waste!)
2), As we don't have much in the way of ranged firepower, will you be giving the Spiritwalker the option to carry a heavy weapon too? The downside of this is that he'd become a static fire platform and wouldn't benefit from wraithsight from the Shadowseer, unless you gave the SS the option to become a spiritseer too.
3) While I'm on the subject of heavy weapons, how about giving the Mockingbird the option to carry a twin-linked weapon turret like the Wave Serpent? Or even create a similar new vehicle to fill this role and put it in the Heavy Support section?

[Rasmus]

1. Yes
2. My bad - it does, the list is just incomplete due to copyrightissues.
3. The Mockingbird is rare in that it fits perfectly into the fluff and the list. It is subtle in fluff and excellent in execution. I doubt I could ever cobble together anything half its brilliance. Sad VDR are out the window or you could try yourself. In the end though - the Harlequins do not rely on heavy weapons, so adding more of them makes very little sense. It is not what they are about.

[Khain Mor (/kharandhil)]

the Harlequins do not rely on heavy weapons, so adding more of them makes very little sense. It is not what they are about.

There's no reason why harlequins should remain the samen, I find their fluff incomplete so far.

LIke the black library, it's a craftworld, if harlequins have such a thing as a craftworld, why wouldn't they have some falcons, or something similar to that. I still do understand your point, harlies are not about waging war on a big scale...

Like harlies back in the 4th were playable, you could have done apoc with them. In the game it was possible, according to their fluff it wasn't.
Though I know you'll disagree with me on this I do think that harlies will ask somekind of help in bigger battles...

Maybe you can just come up with a harlequin troupe datasheet, with great harlequin, solitaires, mimes, etc... These would just be a part of an apoc eldar army. That's actually what my plan is, but the datasheet will be available for both eldar and dark eldar, as the old fluff did say that harlies visit commoragh...

[Rasmus]

the Harlequins do not rely on heavy weapons, so adding more of them makes very little sense. It is not what they are about.

There's no reason why harlequins should remain the samen, I find their fluff incomplete so far.

  That is as you may think, but that is not what this project is about. This is just about making the original RT-list of the Harlequin playable in the current edition, in one form or another (through 2nd ed codex, CJ-list and now C:E-listing). If you want something else, feel free to make it, but it is not what this thread is about, sorry.

[Zemanova]

Will you be including the Benathai again? Little touches like these guys give the masque a bit of flavour

What were the Benathai??

[cythron]

Will you be including the Benathai again? Little touches like these guys give the masque a bit of flavour

What were the Benathai??

When the Harlequin update appeared in Citadel Journal 17, they included a familiar group for the Shadowseer, small creatures called the Benathai that added to his powers and defended him. If you check out the EO 3rd ed Harlequin Revision Rasmus has included them in it and gives a bit of a description of their powers etc

3. The Mockingbird is rare in that it fits perfectly into the fluff and the list. It is subtle in fluff and excellent in execution. I doubt I could ever cobble together anything half its brilliance. Sad VDR are out the window or you could try yourself. In the end though - the Harlequins do not rely on heavy weapons, so adding more of them makes very little sense. It is not what they are about.

I haven't got the 5th ed rulebook yet, but I'm led to believe that Vibro-cannons aren't so good anymore...

Vibro's used to be the weapon of choice but getting the arrival of 5th Ed and -3 to any rolls on the vehicle damage chart pretty much killed them off in most lists.

I never made a Mockingbird for my 4th ed Harly list, so I don't know how they fared in battle sadly..





Serial-posting is bad. Use the modify-button to add contents to an existing post rather than post another in response to yourself.
Posts cleaned.
Have a nice day

[Rasmus]

What were the Benathai??

The benathai are the symbols of the last Eldar Deity to die during the Fall, the Heavenly eagle which sacrificed itself to allow teh Laughing god to escape. In the list they are familiars to the Shadowseer. If you read the revision for 4th ed they are in there.

I haven't got the 5th ed rulebook yet, but I'm led to believe that Vibro-cannons aren't so good anymore...

They are actually quite decent, especially against big units of infantry, or heavy tanks. I have had great luck with mine, and it serves the purpose for which it was designed very well. It is not a falcon, and when people use it as such it tends to fail miserably, but when used for what it is then it works like a treat.

[Zemanova]

What were the Benathai??

The benathai are the symbols of the last Eldar Deity to die during the Fall, the Heavenly eagle which sacrificed itself to allow teh Laughing god to escape. In the list they are familiars to the Shadowseer. If you read the revision for 4th ed they are in there.

Ok I've had a look & it has to be said I'm not sure I like them as I can see Chaos having familiars but not Eldar.

Also, can u expand on "symbols of the last Eldar Deity to die during the Fall" i.e. where did this come from & how did it arise?