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Offline Crawfskeezen

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Vast collection of threads regarding "Exponential Price Growth"
« on: January 13, 2013, 02:06:43 PM »
So all this lovely new DA kit is up on the GW site. And don't get me wrong, some of the stuff looks like it is well aged premium cheddar - you know, the good stuff.

Perhaps it is just that this occurs at a junction when I am drafting an appeal to Games Workshop in regards to price disparity (which I will later post [not here] for peer review prior to submission) but aren't they Crazy Overpriced?

The new Vengance land speeder is the same price as a Valkyrie and the battleforce (for standard battleforce price) comes with 6 bikes (presumably 5 in a troop and an hq) an attack bike and a speeder.

Am I disillusioned here? It just seems we're drawing nearer and nearer to the days of $100 land speeders.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2013, 11:20:36 PM by Grand Master Lomandalis »
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Offline Benis

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Re: Exponential Price Growth
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2013, 02:34:45 PM »
The new Vengance land speeder is the same price as a Valkyrie and the battleforce (for standard battleforce price) comes with 6 bikes (presumably 5 in a troop and an hq) an attack bike and a speeder.

The battleforce is the same as it has been since last time Dark Angels got a codex and stuff like Land Speeder Vengeance/Darkshroud, special kits will always be more expensive since GW can't expect to sell as many as more standard kits. The Land Speeder at least comes on three sprues, the Heldrake is strictly two sprues with a single extra bit left over after completion and costs the same so it isn't really anything new for Dark Angels. Units such as troops or standard transports will be cheaper compared to other plastic entries simply because GW will sell more of them so their investment will pay back sooner even at a cheaper price, just look at the difference between Greatswords and Soldiers of the Empire boxes for Empire, they pretty much contain the same amount of plastic but have vastly different prices.

Offline Alienscar

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Re: Exponential Price Growth
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2013, 02:42:46 PM »
I can't see this thread lasting too long Crawfskeezen as in one way or another this subject has been touched upon numerous times. I not sure but there might even be a rule that says you aren't allowed to moan about GW pricing.  ;) You will quite a few responses pointing out that this hobby isn't that expensive when compared to other hobbies. Console gaming is a popular example. Personally I like my scalextric example were each car is now £45. All that said I kind of agree with you. Not about being overpriced because that is all relative but about the disparity. My guess is that some of the disparity comes from the age of the moulds. The Battleforce has been around for awhile so I guess they can recuperate the cost of those moulds over a longer period but as the DA may have a limited customer base this might, in GW's view, justify the higher price of models as they will need to cover the cost of new moulds.
I've said it before the price of an item can only be as high as the customer is willing to pay. In my case when scalextric reached £45 I stopped buying then because as a collector I could no longer afford to buy every one of the new releases. For you maybe GW has reached the same point.
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Offline Crawfskeezen

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Re: Exponential Price Growth
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2013, 04:37:06 PM »
I can't see this thread lasting too long Crawfskeezen as in one way or another this subject has been touched upon numerous times.

I apologize, I'm not trying to dredge graves here, I was just alarmed by those main two points.

The battleforce is the same as it has been since last time Dark Angels got a codex and stuff like Land Speeder Vengeance/Darkshroud, special kits will always be more expensive since GW can't expect to sell as many as more standard kits.

Point taken on the Vengances, they won't sell as many. I'm just curious as to how effective they will be bang/buck wise.

@ Benis: As for the battleforce, are you saying that the new one is model for model the same as the 4th ed one? If so, lame.
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Offline Koval, Master Verispex

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Re: Exponential Price Growth
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2013, 04:51:07 PM »
It's also the exact same price (£70 before, £70 after). They've just changed the packaging and brought attention to it in light of the new Codex.

Offline Benis

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Re: Exponential Price Growth
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2013, 06:06:09 PM »
I'm just curious as to how effective they will be bang/buck wise.

About as bad as Heldrakes, Valkyries, Storm Talons and the like. Most flyers/skimmers will be big models due to wings etc. but are usually quite light so not as point heavy as, say, a Land Raider.

@ Benis: As for the battleforce, are you saying that the new one is model for model the same as the 4th ed one? If so, lame.

It is not so much a Battleforce as a complete Ravenwing Squadron, it contains all the entry's model options (excluding special weapons) so if you look at it as a Ravenwing complete squadron box you might not get so disappointed. Not to mention that it is quite a good deal...

Offline angel of death 007

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Re: Exponential Price Growth
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2013, 07:57:46 PM »
I dunno the price of the new DA termie set seemed to be very worth it considering, you now have new DA termies from Dark Vengeance and it comes with a lot of options in one set, for not very much price increase over that which termies have cost for awhile now.  A pretty decent deal in my mind with plenty of extras for conversions.

The new codex's got a price hike as well.  But they are argueably a bit better than before.  They look a lot nicer and if taken care of should last longer than soft cover books.  So price increase there was kind of a given.

The Dark talon about made me cry.   I hope it doesn't set the new stage for fliers to follow at $75... yikes.  Not sure where they pulled that cost from but it is bad.

Battleforce is right on and comparable with other battleforces.

The command bike squad and the vengeance also had considerable price hikes for models in their comparative price range.  (or should be comparative). 

Overall I thought the codex was really nice and the new termies are awesome.  With a few sets of the DV core set termies and the new termie set, it should make a nice basis for a Deathwing army at a pretty reasonable price.  I guess it just depends on the type of DA army you want to field.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2013, 08:00:20 PM by angel of death 007 »

Offline Idaho

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Re: Exponential Price Growth
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2013, 05:59:25 AM »
I have noticed a substantial increase in prices actually. I'm used to the steady increase over the years (Tactical squads used to be £12!) but there seems to be a big jump recently. £30 Codex, Samuel Jetbike and £15 for a rubbish model like Belial...

With costs approaching Forge World, we can expect a drop in sales and damage to the profits of the company. But the Share Holders don't care of course, not short term.

GW has a serious problem with it's pricing and it will hurt them sooner or later.

Offline Arquarian

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Re: Exponential Price Growth
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2013, 06:33:18 AM »
I tend to agree. I rarely buy anything fro GW anymore opting for online retailers, indi shops and ebay.


Coupled with the shop business model here in the UK to cut down staff and opening time I'm actually thinking there;s not much point going into a Games Workshop anymore.  Seems a bit daft to me.


As a business model you'd think that encouraging people into the shop would be a good idea.


Some of the models you can explain away. The HQ & Lord/hero models are waay expensive but you HAVE to have them. Therefore GW charge a premium.  Troops sell more, are generally generic and don't get updated as often therefore their long term profitability is higher so GW can charge (relatively) less. Chapter specific models, Abomination vengeance landspeeder for example, will generate only a finite amount of interest so will cost more. Still I agree they are too expensive.


The Codex book I disagree with. £30 for a 100 page ir so hardback book is extortionate in my eyes and will only drive more people to 'acquire' the book through illegal digital means. Again it is the case that you HAVE to have the book to run the army and so GW charge more. I'm not a fan of hardback army books I thought the paper back version were perfectly adequate. If you can't look after a paperback book chances are you also can't look after a hardback.




Offline Nemo vas Varya

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Re: Exponential Price Growth
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2013, 02:00:59 PM »
There was actually a pretty interesting fight Saturday between a Store manager of a GW store, and a player who came in, the day of the release of the DA Codex, with the entire thing printed out of a home printer. He didn't even bother to staple the pages together, and flaunted it to people who had just bought the codex. "You had to wait till today, I had this Wednesday and for free suckers." That was the line that drew the manager over who asked him to either pay for the codex, or leave the store, stating quite reasonably, "It is absurd to think you could bring obviously pirated, that is to mean stolen, property from the company who operates this store, and expect everything to be cool."

When faced with the consequences, the kid backed down, and bought the book. (Then tried to sell his photocopies for 20 bucks, which got him kicked out.) The point is that prices going up have less of an effect then people realize when like video gaming, the industry is supported by the impulse buys of teenagers and young adults who are either spending mommy and daddy's money, or live at home/have a cheap apartment with room mates and little to no debt or other expenses at the time.

It wont increase piracy, because the line is pretty clear on who will resort to it or wont. It might drive people on the fence over, but at this point we all know who around us will pirate and who wont. I gave up stopping those around me who I know will do it.

As a Dark Angel player who is looking at those black knights, who is unemployed with no hope of that changing any time soon despite job searches, I know that the official kits are out of reach for me most of the time, occasionally or monthly budget works out and my fiancee and I each get a splurge item. (I got a Codex, plus used the last of the online gift certificates I got to get a LSV.) I do know when I pick up the Black Knights kit, to which I want to get three of to have a full squad of Black Knights, I have already figured out how to make four bikes from each kit using a Ravenwing Bike squad kit. And that is the secret every veteran of this hobby has told me. You don't take the kit for as is, you take the kit and stretch as far as possible, kit bash to make a three bike kit, a four bike. So on, so forth.
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Offline Bobman

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Re: Exponential Price Growth
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2013, 02:41:38 PM »
What can you say. The prices will always go up whether justified or not. I know I had a stun when I went in to get a combat squad and saw the price recently.

As the previous poster said it makes you stretch. For me that meant learning to magnetise and such.

It is also true that while I love the game at this rate it won't be long before GW price me out of the game. Starting a family means that I surely won't have as much spare cash.
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Offline Eldar_Atog

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Re: Exponential Price Growth
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2013, 03:20:01 PM »
I do wonder what will happen to the prices as 3D printers become more common/cheaper. My game store owner is planning on getting one soon so that we could make some custom terrain. I doubt he would try to print out any GW models but I could see someone else giving that sort of thing a try... espicially with the really big things like titans.

Offline Arquarian

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Re: Exponential Price Growth
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2013, 05:21:33 AM »
What can you say. The prices will always go up whether justified or not. I know I had a stun when I went in to get a combat squad and saw the price recently.

As the previous poster said it makes you stretch. For me that meant learning to magnetise and such.

It is also true that while I love the game at this rate it won't be long before GW price me out of the game. Starting a family means that I surely won't have as much spare cash.



And this is why I think the business strategy needs thinking about. Instead of pricing you and many many others out of the game GW should be nurturing and encouraging you to collect for longer. £100 per year for 20 years is better than £300 one your and nothing the next.


The example of the Codex show quite blatantly that people are willing to acquire illegal copies of codex as the book itself is too expensive. couple with the fact that GW seem to be moving away from making their shops hobby centers means less people will attend GW shops and will frequent gaming clubs where most people will frown upon but not thrown out people using illegal army books.


and what about collectors? Once upon a time I had all the codex's and most of the army books. there's no way I can buy them all now.


I've gone from having 8 different armies to 3. I collect less and spend less.

Offline enlg

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Re: Exponential Price Growth
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2013, 06:00:46 AM »
I have to say its sad to see these kinds of threads, since they are so common. The fact is, Games Workshop has always been very expensive, much too expensive for all the people who show interest. The sad thing is, it also is too cheap for people to "dabble" in it, or try getting used to it.


Here is my understanding of the trend of the hobby itself though, which also is annoying gamers.


The idea behind the old books was that there were a range of options that could be tested out, and that people would play for fun, and that while points limits would limit games in scale, people could obviously make accommodations so that the game was fair. People also could look around for units that they thought were better. This would make playing the game encourage spending, which wasn't always too difficult. If you really needed a predator tank, hey, you could wait three months, and have it for the next eight years.

Then, on top of this, there were a couple categories of lists that were socially monitored.

"Power lists" were what we called "competitive lists" today, lists that are finely tuned to maul someone.

"Cheese lists" were either gimmicks, or competitive lists that seemed to shaft a realistic vision of an army to abuse the force organization chart. A marine army with scouts and land raiders could be considered one of these. People shied away from these lists to encourage a more thematic setting.

"Normal lists" were lists that were not tuned as much as competitive lists, that most people used. People experimented with these lists, and had fun. I made these lists and for tournaments I made slightly competitive lists.


Once codex creep kicked in though, what happened is, people started to have worse match ups. While I didn't experience this much myself, the Grey Knight codex was obviously the easiest book to use and do well with. So few of their basic units can be outfitted in terrible ways, so if you take a Grey Knight player, and an Eldar player, who are both new, I bet on the Grey Knight player winning more games.

This in turn might discourage the Eldar player, either making him spend a lot of money, or leaving him in the dirt. Who knew that Grey Knights were amazing at killing Eldar Guardians? Who knew that Vypers weren't very powerful, and were overpriced? Not them of course.


I'm not trying to distract too much from the main topic. All I'm trying to say is that I think people should try actually doing something about these trends. Making a visible, tangible petition to change Games Workshop for the better. Even when I started, I always thought about how to make more models per boxed set, or how to convert things to save money, but its ridiculous if you can't even buy the conversion parts without looking at similarly priced items outside of this hobby.

This is why I haven't bought anything. I converted Obliterators for my 5th edition list, and use parts from my now obsolete Lost and the Damned army (which once was a tournament legal traitor/mutant list).

Offline Crawfskeezen

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Re: Exponential Price Growth
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2013, 01:53:06 PM »
I'm not trying to distract too much from the main topic. All I'm trying to say is that I think people should try actually doing something about these trends. Making a visible, tangible petition to change Games Workshop for the better.

I totally agree enlarging cloud.

I am drafting an appeal to Games Workshop in regards to price disparity (which I will later post [not here] for peer review prior to submission)

And you make a very valid point about posing alternatives. GW isn't going to take well to some gongshow bashing the way they do business without suggesting anything better. Not that that was my intention.

As many other posters have mentioned I too am shying away from GW for my purchases choosing eBay and independent party retailers for their lower prices. But that said I have not bought a full kit in some time (tending towards bitz and components) and the last one I did buy was from GW.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2013, 01:54:20 PM by Crawfskeezen »
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Offline Shas'La robo

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Re: Exponential Price Growth
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2013, 07:32:54 PM »
I'm not trying to distract too much from the main topic. All I'm trying to say is that I think people should try actually doing something about these trends. Making a visible, tangible petition to change Games Workshop for the better. Even when I started, I always thought about how to make more models per boxed set, or how to convert things to save money, but its ridiculous if you can't even buy the conversion parts without looking at similarly priced items outside of this hobby.


http://www.facebook.com/groups/109577025797447/

Here's a facebook petition for the price disparity in Australia and New Zealand compared to the rest of the world. We save roughly 40% including shipping when ordering from online stores in the US... :(

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Re: Exponential Price Growth
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2013, 08:27:04 PM »
yes I agree its an expensive hobby, but I look at it like this, my space wolves army cost me around 500 pounds give or take and with building, painting, thinking about and penning army lists and gaming iv easily had 500 hours enjoyment out of it. For something I enjoy as much as I do 40k id say it was a fair price. try going to the pub and having a good time on 1 pound an hour, cant be done. going to see a film will set u back the best part of 20 quid these days with your ticket and snacks, that's like 10 quid an hour!

Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Offline Bobman

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Re: Vast collection of threads regarding "Exponential Price Growth"
« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2013, 05:04:05 AM »
It is an expensive hobby and always has been. As are most hobbies, and as they go this one good value when you look at it per model. They are good quality models too.

I haven't had a problem with prices until now because it is becoming harder and harder to find the cash. As I said earlier soon I won't be able to buy their products. If I'm not alone surely that's bad for GW.
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Re: Exponential Price Growth
« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2013, 05:57:14 AM »
Once codex creep kicked in though, what happened is, people started to have worse match ups. While I didn't experience this much myself, the Grey Knight codex was obviously the easiest book to use .....

You think codex creep started with Grey Knights? I guess someone should go back to 1998 and tell the blood angel players their 3rd edition codex wasn't actually a massive broken cheesefest. (Seriously it was cheese, 32" charge range for models in rhinos, with free death company using free powerfist, riding in a free rhino of course... and Mat Ward wasn't even potty trained back in those days so you can't blame him!)

There is no change in how GW has been doing things, and the hobby contines despite people predicting its death more often than the new Dark Eldar codex...
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