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Offline Farceseer Syranaul

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Re: Cheese
« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2007, 11:41:10 PM »
GW already did something like that to Eldar farseers inside transports.
"Simple Changes, and Small Additions"
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Offline sebster

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Re: Cheese
« Reply #21 on: June 21, 2007, 12:45:23 AM »
Hahah, funny, Laz.

It reminds me of the Senator a few decades back, during a debate about pornography, when asked to define pornography said he couldn't, but he'd know it if he saw it.

Sal.

Um, that’s a pretty common concept, the reasonable man test.  Basically something can be defined as x if a reasonable ‘man on the street’ would consider it such.  It’s saying that just because something is impossible to absolutely define it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.  To continue the example, its hard to define porn, but it certainly exists.

It means you have to use a little common sense and honesty in knowing what cheese is and what it isn’t, but that’s why God created adults.

Now, what situations cheese is and isn’t acceptable is a whole other discussion, but there certainly is a thing that people like to call cheese.

Offline The Reborn

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Re: Cheese
« Reply #22 on: June 21, 2007, 07:53:19 AM »
@Rightfire...there was a time i thought like you....many moons ago now.  I appeared on various 40k sites and forums extolling the virtues of taking "the best list you can within the rules".

But the truth is darker than that.  The truth is that these type of lists are unsporting, and the players behind them win through a few standardised tactics because they can.  Their armies require no real ability to field and virtually no real ability to win with.  Think of it as a chess game, where one player has 3 queens....

I do play regularly against tough, hyper-lists....and i lose to them.  I also beat them and enjoy doing so to prove a point, but rarely, if ever, do i find an opponent with such a list who is a pleasure to game with.  They follow the same character traits as each other...irrascible, impatient, immature and whiny.  I'm not saying every gamer ought to have totally balanced army lists...because eventually that in itself, would breed stagnation and too many samey lists.  But you do reach a stage in your gaming, where you begin to see the harm powermongering can do......we all see these ass-heads in stores and gaming groups, who would rather lean on hyped-up unit choices than pure tactical nouse....

My three penneth...

-Reborn. :)

Offline Ianos Stormbringer

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Re: Cheese
« Reply #23 on: June 21, 2007, 08:43:06 AM »
Ok, whenever I want to play a game I always have this certainty in my mind, no matter what I field no matter how I play, people will, 9 out of 10 times, call my army cheesy as long as the outcome of the battle is me emerging victorious. I have played 3 falcons with all other squads different, I have played 2, I have played none, I have played with light Eldar lists like one out of everything 1 guardian squad, 1 WL, 1 pathfinders, 1 reapers, 1 falcon, a 6 man dragon squad a simple Autarch and some spiders and people will still call my army cheesy.

Let me give you another good example: One day we where playing for a campaign and I was up against a marine, no force org chart, no rules he even had more points. I used my standard Mech list expanded to 2500 following force org chart and theme, using transports and fast units. I had no ap3 or better weapons except for the 10 dragons and banshees in 2500 points!!! My opponent new what was coming and designed a list disregarding force org and having all the las/plas, devastating, predatory, terminating goodness ever, plus of course the classic librarian in a powered up HQ squad and a few ACs here and there! In the end of the game he had lost every single man (painstakingly refused to retreat to fight another day), and I had lost my banshees and 7 dragons. So what do I hear after that?: “Dang you Ianos and your CHEESY Eldar!!!”
Or this other guy in a tournament who fielded a large Ork army with 3!!!! Rockit launchas as his ONLY anti-tank weapons!!! Is it my fault that I crushed him? He should have simply known better.

As for definitions, in Greece we have a saying “opinions are like as***les, everybody has one!” (Excuse the language but I really think it fits…) One guy says 2 monoliths are cheesy and another is vomiting at the sight of just one. 2 las/plas is ok but three is too much where the other guy thinks that even one is abusive, are 12 ACs cheesy? And if they are what about 11? 10? 6? How about 1? Since 12 are cheesy that means they create an aggregate of overpowering hence in my mind even one is overpowered as if it wasn’t then 12 would also not be, so I can go to a tournament and zero a guy at comp just because he has a single AC!

As for the “know when I see” argument your politician was simply ill informed and not right:

Pornography, sometimes shortened to porn or porno, is, in its broadest state, the explicit representation of the human body or sexual activity with the goal of sexual arousal and/or sexual relief. It is similar to erotica, which is the use of sexually-arousing imagery used mainly for artistic purpose. Over the past few decades, an immense industry for the production and consumption of pornography has grown, due to emergence of the VCR, the DVD, and the Internet, as well as the emergence of more tolerant social attitudes.
(Source: Wikipedia online encyclopedia)

But who can give me a definition of cheese here? Nobody, I ‘ve been to countless forums, game events, clubs, played with tournament players, noobs you name it and everyone has his own perception of cheese and yes they all “know it when they see it” according to their own interests. If I make a list full of guardians the horde nid player will yell cheese whereas the nidzilla player will say “piece of cake!”. My three falcons are the Necron joy of life and an Orkish nightmare.  So let me also give my definition of cheese:

“Cheese in Warhammer 40k is an attribute attached by a player to a game option(s), most usually found in his opponent’s army, that he considers nigh impossible to tackle. This characterization is mainly used by the player as a defensive mechanism which he believes will reduce the opponent’s effectiveness or sentiment of victorious joy, but also alleviates the losing player’s stress of admitting to his errors and changing his army/tactics/self. It is also used by players to force their opponents into fielding army lists and combinations that the player can more effectively deal with and ensure more victories”

In other words, cheese crying and comp scoring are a totally unsportsmanlike behavior and such practices should not be accepted by the company which produces the game. Yes the game is not balanced and everyone knows that, but apart from simply pointing out imbalances, the player’s role is to play the game and not to think he is the game’s developer, or dictate what his opponent is supposed to like.

If people hate to loose and want to have fun games they can play GI Joe for all I care, 40k is a War-game with tactics, statistics, right and wrong moves, right and wrong combos, and missions that are never exactly the same. But on top of all 40k is a game of a winner and a looser and it takes two to win!



So to sum it up I believe there is no cheese, and even if some things are imbalanced I will not blame anyone for using the best (or what they perceive as best) choices in their army because after all is said and done “fluffy” and “balanced” is whatever is allowed by the rulebook and the codex. And I mean I won’t even take on a player who uses 12 assault cannons (even though me and the world including maybe himself believe the AssCannon needs a fix) because I firmly believe he has every right to do so and in every single game casual or not, and this is a fairly solid belief for no one can judge how much and how little is just right except for the designers and in our case the codex we use. If something is wrong it is addressed in the new codices and FAQs and none has the right to blame anyone else for fielding what they like.

Cheers!

The strands of fate being pulled, foresight brings more gifts, treasures with pain, knowledge with strife and the laws of anarchy. For when the jurney ends, and the stardust settles, all that lies in the mirror of infinity is thyself.

Offline Democratus

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Re: Cheese
« Reply #24 on: June 21, 2007, 09:06:23 AM »
I'm definately in the "there is no cheese" camp.

Whenever I encounter someone who tells me that they should be able to take a weaker list and still be able to beat my army it reminds me of working for the state.  My first day at that job I was informed by my coworkers that I needed to work slow so that they wouldn't all look bad.

Building an ineffective list isn't a justification for calling another player a cheater - which is in effect what the "cheese" cry is trying to invoke.  Build your own good army or accept the fact that you are sacrificing victory for personal preference.

That said...if you play in a private leage or only amongst friends - even the rules are up to you to decide.  In the larger world (tournaments, store games, etc.) it is dangerous to bring your prejudices along with you.

Offline The Reborn

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Re: Cheese
« Reply #25 on: June 21, 2007, 11:18:32 AM »
Quote from: Democratus
Building an ineffective list isn't a justification for calling another player a cheater - which is in effect what the "cheese" cry is trying to invoke.

Who said anything about building an ineffective list?  I haven't, and i'm certain no one else in this thread has either D.  This thread isn't about weaker lists mate, but the lists at the total opposite end of the scale, ok? :)

@Ianos....you wanted a definition of cheese i believe?  Here's mine:

Quote
But the truth is darker than that.  The truth is that these type of lists are unsporting, and the players behind them win through a few standardised tactics because they can.  Their armies require no real ability to field and virtually no real ability to win with.  Think of it as a chess game, where one player has 3 queens....

If you carry forward the Chess analogy, how do you think you would fare against half a dozen queens Ianos?  Sound fair to you?  In chess, imbalance cannot exist, except perhaps in the individual player's experience and ability....but in terms of pieces, no.  With 40K there are a much wider choice of pieces and abilities tied to those pieces....the codex set-up is inherently flawed as it clearly allows the option to build ramped-up lists.  As i mentioned, these lists require little thought or ability to execute them, and win through list strength rather than player ability.  if you want a definition from me, then it is that.

The term "cheese" is not another word for "cheat".  No one is saying that, least of all me. 
As you point out, or was it Rightfire......? .......it's within the rules, and as far as that goes, you are correct.....but cheesiness is a question of conscience really.  If we all took the very hardest list we could, we might all have some uber-powered Chaos Iron warrior list with 4 defilers and 9 Obliterators etc...how much fun would that be?  You seem to be ignoring the fun aspect to the game. Just how much actual fun can be derived from crushing some newb with your top list?  It's sad....sad.

I bet when you have kids, you'll be the kind of dad that goes in for soccer tackles with his kids two-footed..... ;D

Quote from: Ianos
apart from simply pointing out imbalances, the player’s role is to play the game and not to think he is the game’s developer, or dictate what his opponent is supposed to like.

Fine.  But codices are in a state of flux constantly because imbalance is so prevalent.  It is not we gamers who change the stats and rules, it is the games devs....and you better believe they are doing that for a reason..(apart from money-spinning that is).  As for gamers' opinions, well, they are allowed them...heck, even you are!! ;D

Quote from: Ianos
If people hate to loose and want to have fun games they can play GI Joe for all I care, 40k is a War-game with tactics, statistics, right and wrong moves, right and wrong combos, and missions that are never exactly the same. But on top of all 40k is a game of a winner and a looser and it takes two to win!

Oh, 40K is a man's game is it?  And here's me thinking it was little painted figures on a table top.....you are under some delusion that disliking cheese is a thing only losers do.  I have an excellent record actually, and another disliker of cheesiness on this thread, Lazarus, has an excellent tournament record.  Neither of us is a loser Ianos....nor do we need to be to see cheese for what it is....a poor tactician's crutch.

Aha!!! Another definition......a poor tactician's crutch.  Happy gaming mate,

-Reborn. :)

« Last Edit: June 21, 2007, 12:14:10 PM by The Reborn »

Offline Spyke

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Re: Cheese
« Reply #26 on: June 21, 2007, 12:13:03 PM »
Well put Reborn! I'm gonna have to jump in and say I agree with you completely. Also, do you mind if use that definition of yours in the future:

Quote
a poor tactician's crutch.

I think it really does sum up what cheese means. Cheesiness is really just wanting to win more than anything else you can think of (including having a good time). Who cares if everyone hates me. Who cares if I have to find a new gaming group. Who cares if I don't even have a good time playing. I won!!! Not really the mentality the game is going for I think. I at least try to make sure both players have a good time in every game I play. Sure it's more difficult for the loser, but a good, friendly game can and should be enjoyed by both players.

Offline The Reborn

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Re: Cheese
« Reply #27 on: June 21, 2007, 12:25:11 PM »
Quote from: Spyke
I at least try to make sure both players have a good time in every game I play. Sure it's more difficult for the loser, but a good, friendly game can and should be enjoyed by both players.

And you Spyke have located the definition of why i play the game. :D

More than anything, it is about FUN.  Hey, it's great to win, no one's knocking winning.  But if you are not having fun unless you win, you are truly getting nothing from the experience.

Happy gaming, Reborn. :)
« Last Edit: June 21, 2007, 12:30:26 PM by The Reborn »

Offline Farceseer Syranaul

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Re: Cheese
« Reply #28 on: June 21, 2007, 12:33:47 PM »
If one is responsible for their own cheese.  Then one is responsible for their own fun.
"Simple Changes, and Small Additions"
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Offline rightfire

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Re: Cheese
« Reply #29 on: June 21, 2007, 12:34:34 PM »
I believe in using the most effective lists.

I think that if someone isn't using the best list they can, they're using a less effective list, rather than the most effective one,

It feels the same as if they're LETTING their opponent win.

40k is a game, and winning and losing is in the spirit of the game.

LETTING your opponent win because you're afraid you might hurt his feelings makes the game seem boring.

I personally won't get the satisfaction of victory if I knew my opponent used a less effective list rather than the best list he can.

I believe a fair match is when both sides use 100% of their strength.
LETTING your opponent win by using a weaker list makes the whole game pointless.

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Offline eternallybored

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Re: Cheese
« Reply #30 on: June 21, 2007, 12:49:19 PM »
I mostly try to ignore cheese because it is very hard to define when a list is cheesy and when its just your list/tactics not being up to scratch. We've all had those games where a newbie with space marines whose been indoctrinated into thinking theyre unstoppable plays with no regard for tactics or strategy and calls the other persons army cheese because they lose horrendously. Personally, I don't like it when it happens to me and I try not to do it to someone else. Yes, its possible that their list uses a lot of powerful weapons that are very difficult to beat. But its one of the things you have to accept when you play 40k and not chess - that things may not be completely fair all the time. Otherwise you come off sounding like the new kid who doesn't understand tactics and is whining simply because he lost.
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Offline kerg

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Re: Cheese
« Reply #31 on: June 21, 2007, 12:51:39 PM »
I believe in using the most effective lists.

I believe a fair match is when both sides use 100% of their strength.
LETTING your opponent win by using a weaker list makes the whole game pointless.

Has nothing to do with letting your opponent win just that different people like different things.  If everyone should have the most effective list then just design a box set that say 'Most Effective Space Marines army' and don't allow variances.   Some people like power gaming, some people just like building different armies and some are in the middle.  Just as long as you are comfortable with whatever group you find yourself in and don't have an issue with another group and understand where they are coming from.. so be it.


Offline The Reborn

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Re: Cheese
« Reply #32 on: June 21, 2007, 01:00:43 PM »
@Rightfire....i totally understand your viewpoint mate, really i do but i disagree that it is letting your opponent win by taking a lesser force.  The way i see it, there is winning through tactics and there is winning through models.  Cheese for me is the latter.

Each to his own.  Happy gaming, Reborn. :)

Offline Democratus

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Re: Cheese
« Reply #33 on: June 21, 2007, 02:10:57 PM »
When both players have an optomized set of models, then victory again goes to tactics.

If either player takes a sub-optimal force, then tactics play a much smaller role and the list becomes the most important thing.

Offline kerg

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Re: Cheese
« Reply #34 on: June 21, 2007, 03:31:09 PM »
In the end, doesn't matter what list I use because my dice rolling mojo stinks...  ;D

Offline Lazarus

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Re: Cheese
« Reply #35 on: June 21, 2007, 04:30:15 PM »
Posted by: rightfire

Quote
I believe in using the most effective lists.

In any format? What about an RTT that includes composistion scoring? It would seem by your posts that winning is indeed the point of competition. With that in mind it is difficult to win the best overall title with a force that others might perceive as "cheesey" or "min-maxed" etc.  If this is the case then taking the strongest list possible actually hurts you when you are trying to win the whole thing.....winning all of your games is often not enough in these type environments.



Quote
I believe a fair match is when both sides use 100% of their strength.

The problem arises in that both sides even at 100% are often not evenly matched at all...


Lazarus.
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Offline Erenthal

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Re: Cheese
« Reply #36 on: June 21, 2007, 05:09:12 PM »
I really shouldn't be getting into these debates, but I'll throw common sense overboard and dive in anyway.

My definition of cheese: The act of constructing an army list using specifically researched or otherwise commonly known combinations of models/wargear/compositional options whose effectivness when used in those specific combinations are far greater than their assigned points-values would otherwise suggest, thereby netting the offending player an advantage over any opponent not utilizing these combinations himself.

In short, 40k has a dozen different codexes, and a massive number of choices and combinations within those. As with all such collections, it is nigh impossible for GW to perfectly balance each and every option and every possible combination. That's why codexes gets updates, or a FAQ is written, when the known unbalances of a list is reaching a critical mass.

A cheesing player is also basing his assumptions on his opponents model-collection. The cheese-player on the defensive will always shout: "Everything can be beat, just take this combination!" but in this he proves his crime. Sure, you can construct units to beat other units, but what casual player has for instance 12 lascannons in his collection? Or 3+ units of Ogryns, or whatever the cheesing player suggests? No, the cheesing player in many cases preys on the casual player and newbie, counting on the fact that they wont have the rare models or sufficient numbers of whatever is needed to counter him.

Now, I don't mind at all when two power players/cheesers meet and do battle. Sure, the battle will certainly be dull and probably charged with malice since both players will be using every dirty advantage "math-hammer" can bring him. But hey, let them have their "fun."

Further, I think obsessive cheesing waters down the game, stripping the fun out of it. Cheese tends to move lists to a few trite compositons, such as the hallowed Iron Warriors shooty-shooty list. Cheese kills creativity, creating a loop of successive cheese-cycles where specific units are overused.

I do have a problem when cheesers walk into a casual club, whip out their maxed-out cheesy lists and proceed to crush new players or casual players, then only to gloat and whoop.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2007, 05:14:25 PM by Erenthal »
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Offline Redlion

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Re: Cheese
« Reply #37 on: June 21, 2007, 06:24:09 PM »
Oh no here I go again  ::). I really try guys, truthfully, and I apologize, but I just can't help myself here.

As far as cheese goes, does it exist, yes. On Pizza, lol. Its also a by product of milk. Lol.

It has a definition as well.

Ok as far as cheese in this game. Usually its yelled when it really isn't even defined.
Just because one army beat another, is often times all it takes.

I have absolutely no problem with people that play by the rules, and make tough armies to play against. None.

That being said however, there are indeed certain rules, that can be stretched so far, as to cause an unfair balance in the game. So my definition of cheese is something (Rule) stretched so far, it actually breaks the rule.

As a prime example of what I mean....Is free artistic license on bases. I am sorry that rule can be stretched so far, it can actually break game balance. As in a tournament game Laz actually played in, and against the army, and even beat it. Which really is unbelieveable in and of itself.

I am sorry someone putting a bike model on a base the size of a land raider, in all dimensions, is breaking the rule imo. Even though the rules per RAW might allow it, does not mean it is fair at all. That is but one example.

So my definition of cheese is taking such things to the utmost extreme, and twisting them, to make/gain the utmost benefit. IE....another example for you guys, is using the sky leap rule for swooping hawks, to do so every turn, I would definitely contest it, and rule against it in a game.

So those are the types of things I call cheese. Now there are also degrees of cheese on unbalancing factors in this game as well, but its going to be subjective to the individual.

Do I think asscannons should have rending, no I don't. I think the weapon was fine without rending, however, I am not GW, and they think differently, the problem is, even when GW knows they make a mistake in game balance, they never admit to it.

They might put restrictions on the use later, or change the rules later, on said offending item. Which actually is what is happening now, but they will never openly admit they made a mistake, and didn't, or couldn't have really tested it very much to put that on a long range gun. Perhaps I am wrong though. Perhaps it was GW's intention all along, to increase the firepower of such units, so they could sale more of them very fast. Sometimes, GW goes way overboard on the corrections of said items as well.

However, the old rules for the asscannon were really fine as they were, and did not need the rending ability added. Now that is my opinion on it. Does that mean I can't beat an asscannon army, no it doesn't. Does that mean it is cheesey when someone maxes that weapon out in their army, well thats going to be a subjective opinion based on the individual opponent really. Its like the old 3rd edition star cannon, I definitely didn't think it was cheesey, however many people obviously did. I never used more than 2 in my army anyway though. People thought our wraithlords were cheesey, to me they were not, I used 2 in an 1850 point army. Yeah they were tough, but they had some downsides as well. I definitely didn't think they were cheesey.


The biggest issue I have, is getting comp scores docked because of someone not really having a clue what cheese is, they have just heard the term used to describe a unit, or model, and whenever they see it regardless the number, or total army makeup of the opponent, they are going to zero them out. Thats a problem, its not something I have to personally worry about myself, however, the comp scoring in tournaments definitely needs to be revised. If GW won't do it, than Tournament organizers can, and should.

Thats what happened near the end of 2nd edition. When tournaments started banning the use of special characters. Which I used to use in tournaments BTW. My army wasn't cheesey, and I might add I lost quite a few games in 2nd edition. Thats not to say they couldn't be made tough though. However thats the reason today they still carry that stigma. Some people will dock your comp score just because of the special named character in your army, regardless of fluff, regardless of anything. Personally I didn't use GW named characters as per their names. I made up my own, and created my own little heroes, etc. Because GW hosed over named characters from the end of 2nd edition, and throughout 3rd edition, their stigma still follows them though.

Now the fluff hounds will dock you because of your use of the named character of Eldrad in your army (not all, but enough will, all it takes is 1). It does not matter why he is in your army, to them he should not be there. Period. It causes issues and problems, that needs to be looked into by GW as I have stated, if GW will not look into it, and do something about it, then Tournament organizers, definitely should.

Then you get the ones that think they are the so called fluff experts, when fluff is totally a creative part of the individual in question, and also from an individuals Point of View. Yes there are guidelines, but, thats all they are GuideLines, not that there can't be any exceptions. Nor that a persons army can't break the mold from that guideline.

Ok guys, tear me apart, thats my points of view, and opinions though. Keep in mind, I no longer even play the game, I haven't in quite sometime, however I do like the game, and just want it to be better for all concerned, not just myself, plus, I respect everyone's opinion. Even if it doesn't match mine. I am starting to have to say this in every post now because of past issues that have been brought up by others thinking differently though.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2007, 06:54:40 PM by Redlion »

Offline Lazarus

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Re: Cheese
« Reply #38 on: June 21, 2007, 07:17:29 PM »
Posted by: Redlion

Quote
Keep in mind, I no longer even play the game, I haven't in quite sometime,

You had best be getting busy then.....models do not like to sit on the shelf collecting dust you know...

Lazarus.
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Offline Andro Ist Keine Schwedischen

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Re: Cheese
« Reply #39 on: June 21, 2007, 07:51:59 PM »
I believe I defined cheese earlier on.  Obviously no-one noticed.

Cheesing and Power Gaming are two completely different concepts.  No-one can deny that Power Gaming exists, can they?  Yet cheese, the one I defined as 'going against the spirit of the rules to maximise advantages and minimise weaknesses', gets denied?

I seriously don't get some of you guys.  But I do notice the ones who claim it doesn't exist seem to be the main offenders...

If anything, Cheesy lists are often easy to defeat if you have the right models yourself.  They are just utterly overpowering to the majority of players, which is a real problem in tournament situations.  And they tend to be no fun at all to play against as well.

Example: 3rd edition codex Blood Angels spamming Assault Cannons and Death Company, with minimum Scouts as troops.

This goes against their background, agreed?  Blood Angels are basically a codex Chapter with a few ad-hoc units, so they should be mostly made up of Tactical Marines with a balanced selection of support units.  When they show up with 3 Baal Predators and 9 Land Speeder Tornados, and an utter minimum of Scouts then something is very wrong indeed.

And against most opponants this is going to be crushing, as the combination of the Death Company's (which is often called cheese by itself, but I don't agree as it's a manditory unit...) sheer assault power and the massed Assault Cannon will turn most armies into mush.  The fact a Necron Monolith spam will utterly crush such an army is irrelivant.  It's still abuse of the background and of the unit selections.

People are blaming GW for the more restrictive lists in the Eldar and Dark Angels codex.  But really, they are just trying to solve a problem caused by abusers.  So we should be thanking them for attempting the balance out the game.

~Andromidius
aka. Boris the Bear

 


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