Topic: "The best upgrade to boyz" 1750 pt list

[Azonalanthious]

So got a local torny coming up next month, 1750 points.  I also recently picked up 3,000 pts worth of orcs from a friend who is shifting to another army.  Those, with my existing models, give me one heck of a lot of boyz, and with very few additions I can fill out the following list.  And I have to admit, I like the thought of my foe's face when I setup the army.  I plan on a literal green wall, orcs 3 deep the entire width of the board.  Realize its probably not the ideal, optimized list (vehicles in general will likely be a pain) but it will amuse me to play it and that's really the point after all.  Any thoughts and comments are welcome.

HQ:
KFF mek, pk, bosspole: 115 pts
KFF mek, pk, bosspole: 115 pts

Elite:
11x kommandos, nob w/ burna, bosspole: 140 pts
11x kommandos, nob w/ burna, bosspole: 140 pts

Troops:
30x slugga boyz, nob w/pk, bosspole: 220 pts
30x slugga boyz, nob w/pk, bosspole: 220 pts
30x slugga boyz, nob w/pk, bosspole: 220 pts
30x slugga boyz, nob w/pk, bosspole: 220 pts
30x slugga boyz; 180 pts (mek unit)
30x slugga boyz: 180 pts (mek unit)

Exactly 1750.

[OD from TV]

Well Azonalanthious congrats on the big purchase of Boyz!  Thats alot of Orcs/Orkz, and a great way to remodel your force into a fluffy looking Snakebite or Feral Ork band.

And as for your force of Footslogging madness without vehicles (3000 points of Fantasy Orcs is what 150 Orc Warriors and some Black Orcs right?) I think you'll be fine.  Heck I've been playing Footsloggers recently (although that's because I lost just about all my vehicles), and you'll be able to do alright.  Just be careful though as a smart opponent will deploy all his units in one small quadrant in an attempt to break your force into chunks that can be dealt with one unit at a time.

When you do start adding or modifying what you got remember that you can turn some of those boyz (aka Orc Warriors) into Stormboyz (although you'd have to do more conversion work than before to make them jumpin in the air) and you can easily convert Black Orcs into Meganobz by just bulking them up a bit and giving them the Pk and twin Shootas.

Anyway onto your list...
Firstly there is some debate on whether or not a Nob is allowed to take kit from his unit's selection.  Read as Written (often abbreviated RaW) does not support one's ability to, but one can make the case for Read as Intended as there is no specific statement that a Nob cannot, and there is a photo on pg 88 of a converted Nob with a Pk and what appears to be a Big Shoota.

I wouldn't do it.  If not because of the question of legality, but the fact that I'd much rather have a Pk.

Additionally on the Kommandos 11 is a little small for them if you are Outflanking (and suicide if your infiltrating with them).  I would advice altering your list by only having 1 Kommando mob of 15 with 2 Burnas and a Pk Bosspole Nob
and then using the remaining 60 points to add Cybork bodies to both Meks and a Pk Nob to one of the Nob-less Mek squads.

Well that or add 2 Nobs with Big Choppas to those Squads and give Cybork and Eavy Armor to both Meks, which would add tremendously to the Mek's survivability.

Other than that you could consider replacing the Kommandos with something like Lootas which could give you something to do in Shooting other than run and Waaagh movement, or something a bit faster like Stormboyz or buggys.
Stormboyz could fairly easily be made of the Orcs your not using (assuming that there are some your not using as Sluggas) and would be a faster squad which could support your boyz where they need it and/or counter opposing jump troops (although such uses of Stormboyz often end with the unit being severely reduced).  If you go the Buggy (or as some people prefer Kopta) route you'd add in some fast moving Anti-tank, which at the moment your best chance to take out a Tank is to get into CC with it.

Another possibility which could give you some shooting for cheap (and would also play into the heavy potential you currently have for Snakebites or Feral Orks) would be a couple Kannons, preferably each in its own Force Org slot so they don't have to target the same enemy.  I've found Kannons to be little blessings against MC's and Tanks, and they are the cheapest unit in the codex (next to Grots) with a Kannon and 3 Ammo Grotz weighing in at 29 points.

Okay, I'm blabbering on way way too much, and I think its obvious that I'm not the biggest fan of Kommandos as most of this post is about other units to replace them.

So onto a more important thing for you to note when you are using such a Green Tide list.
Unit distinction.

With One Hundred and Eighty Sluggas encompassing 6 Troops slots you really need to find a way to distinguish which unit is which.  This can be done in a wide variety of ways such as each unit as a different colored shirt, each unit is based differently, or if you wanna be real Old School put on back glyphs and back banners on each Ork with distinct markings so you can tell which unit is which.

Sure there are other ways, but I believe those are the most common and easiest.

Peace (and may Mork and Gork bless your band of Orcs/Orkz)
~OD

[kadeton]

I doubt you'll have any trouble winning. Nothing can effectively counter that many boyz at 1750 points, you just keep on advancing and sweep them off the board.

The problem you'll have is getting a game finished in any reasonable amount of time. Between moving, running, shooting and assaulting, 180 boyz takes a hell of a long time to play each turn. Make sure to ask your opponents if they will allow you to roll your run move in the Movement phase in order to save time.

[Deathpepper]

I doubt you'll have any trouble winning. Nothing can effectively counter that many boyz at 1750 points, you just keep on advancing and sweep them off the board.

Sadly, the reality is a little different on the table.

This looks similar to the lists people were throwing around right after the codex came out.  It loses badly to fully mechanized armies.  No shooting means your mobs are reduced to chasing after transports praying for lots of 6's.  Mobile temlates or cc units wreck boyz when there's no fire support or walkers to back them up. 

[RedOnesGoFasta]

Anyway onto your list...
Firstly there is some debate on whether or not a Nob is allowed to take kit from his unit's selection.  Read as Written (often abbreviated RaW) does not support one's ability to, but one can make the case for Read as Intended as there is no specific statement that a Nob cannot, and there is a photo on pg 88 of a converted Nob with a Pk and what appears to be a Big Shoota.

I have to disagree with this, the codex specifies one model may be upgraded with a burna and then again one model may be upgraded to a Nob. By going purely by what is written there is nothing stopping you from choosing the model that received the burna upgrade  to upgrade to a Nob. I know that the vast majority of the time it's a moot point since you would want him to have a power klaw but in this case where his points are maxed out it's not a bad choice. The Nob will have one higher Initiative, Strength, and attack.

[OD from TV]

As I said 'there is a debate' as to the legality of it.

The argument that you can upgrade a Boy with a special/heavy weapon and then upgrade him again to a Nob is the main argument at the heart of it, and no matter how many times this debate comes up there is nothing in the codex or in the FAQ that states one can or can not do this.

I think in my first post I was very nice and objective presenting both sides of the argument so there really is no need to disagree with my opinion which I refrained from stating in my previous post.

But yes RedOnesGoFasta I do have an opinion counter to yours, as I don't think that Nobs were meant to have access to special kit like the Big Shoota, Rokkit Launcha, or Burna anymore, even if members in their squad are.  If you look back at the previous incarnation of the Ork Rulebook a Nob had such a wide variety of weapon options, which often supported the squad tremendously, but almost always at the expense of a CC attack and eating approximately the price of a Boy (in the previous codex).  But the most used Nob was still the Pk Slugga Nob with a Bosspole, which for the most part is still the standard Nob.

But under the Nob section under the Boyz Slot on pg 100 it doesn't say that he can be upgraded with the squad's special weapons.  In fact if you look in other recent Codex's with the same layout it is clear that unit upgrade Characters (such as the Nob) are listed with their options separate because they can't access the special kit options from the rest of the squad, just as the rest of the squad can't access his special kit options.

Take for example Imp Guard, whose Codex is still relatively recent and in the same style as the Ork Book.  Note how there is a distinction between your standard infantry man, known as a Guardsman and their unit upgrade Character known as a Sergeant.  Now a Guardsman can and seems to often have kit like a Flamer or a Meltagun, but you never see a Sgt with one.  That's because the army book makes the distinction between Guardsman and Sgt, just like the Ork Codex makes the distinction between Boy and Nob.

If there were no distinction than any Boy in say a Slugga Mob could take a Pk or Big Choppa while the Nob took a Rokkit Launcha.  Both are valid pieces of kit that are offered in the Unit Selection under the heading of Boyz, but just because they form the same unit doesn't mean that they can all get the same stuff.

Here's the general process for a Nob in the squad, exchanging an Ork Boy with a Slugga and Choppa, with a higher Stat model with the same equipment which can be replaced for a Pk or Big Choppa.  We know from the FAQ that before we exchange a unit's Sluggas and Choppas to Shootas that a Nob as his choice to replace that Choppa with a Pk or Big Choppa.

Furthermore to get a special weapon you are replacing the Slugga/Choppa or Shoota with the special weapon, which as evidenced by the FAQ, the Nob's Slugga/Choppa as a different order of operation than that of the rest of the squad.

But this was a debate I didn't want to get into, so lets just say that there is a debate as to the legality of having a Nob with upgraded equipment options garnered from the Unit Entry and not listed as options under the Nob section of the Unit Entry.

Peace
~OD

[RedOnesGoFasta]

I'm not going to push strongly either way....I was simply stating that RaW supports both arguments, hence why there is actually something to debate. In your first post you made it sound like giving a Nob a special weapon had nothing written to back it up. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.

[kadeton]

I doubt you'll have any trouble winning. Nothing can effectively counter that many boyz at 1750 points, you just keep on advancing and sweep them off the board.

Sadly, the reality is a little different on the table.

This looks similar to the lists people were throwing around right after the codex came out.  It loses badly to fully mechanized armies.  No shooting means your mobs are reduced to chasing after transports praying for lots of 6's.  Mobile temlates or cc units wreck boyz when there's no fire support or walkers to back them up.

Mmm, I didn't really have that close a look at the list, I suppose. I've played similar lists with fewer boyz and had no trouble at all, but I always take Lootas rather than Kommandos and three rokkits in every mob, so meched-up Guard and Marines haven't fazed me much (Land Raiders are a pain). Even without rokkits, a mob gets so many attacks that I generally don't have any trouble rolling enough 6's to immobilise tanks. A rokkit boy is also handy against tank shock.

If the OP is set on Kommandos, maybe a full-size mob with Snikrot would be better, to come in behind the enemy and harry them forward into your advancing boyz. You should definitely think about how to crack light tanks at range, though, as it will make things much easier.