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Offline Wyddr

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The New Thousand Sons: Initial Thoughts
« on: December 6, 2016, 10:03:26 PM »
Okay, I've been pouring over the Wrath of Magnus for the last day or two, and here are my initial thoughts regarding the Thousand Sons:

Overall
So, the Thousand Sons got more interesting, here, but I'm not overly convinced they got substantially better. A little better, yeah, but they are still overpriced and sort of limited. They still require the psychic phase to function (as is appropriate) and have difficulty making that phase actually work at most point levels.

The Units
Rubric Marines are as lame as ever, really. The ability to boost their invul would be handy if there were decent blessings easily accessible to the ksons, but there aren't, really. Warpflamers are okay, but hard to use on a Slow and Purposeful unit, not to mention making a very overpriced unit even more pricey. The Soulreaper Cannon? Please. That gun is a piece of garbage for the cost, even assuming anybody would ever take a full squad of rubrics. It needed either a point more strength or a foot more range to be useful.

Scarab Occult Terminators are pretty cool, overall. Their weapon options are great, the sorcerer is cool, and so on. They are, however, about twenty points too expensive. The soulreaper still kinda sucks.

Exalted Sorcerers are fairly sweet--the boosted BS and attacks and wounds and the Silver Tower thing are all cool. Also overpriced, though.

Ahriman is still basically the same--very good at what he does, but overpriced. The prospect of using formations to reroll Perils is very handy, given how much that guy melts his own brain.

Magnus is a beast, but, again, he costs so damned much he can barely fit in an army. Plus his restrictions of powers basically makes him a psychic artillery platform. This has its uses, but he costs as much as 2 Imperial Knights or so, which is a bit much for that. He isn't even gargantuan, so some enterprising pack of snipers are just gonna gun him down.

Tzaangors are kinda cool, but slightly too expensive for their rules. Only by a point, mind you, so they're useable as cannon fodder. Not much more, though, and Cultists are superior in that role.

In general, this overpricing indicates what has been GWs problem with the Ksons since 5th edition: they consider psychic power and invul saves better than they actually are, so everything gets this cost bump without actually getting substantially more killy or durable except in specific instances.

More to follow...

Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Re: The New Thousand Sons: Initial Thoughts
« Reply #1 on: December 6, 2016, 10:50:57 PM »
Magnus is a beast, but, again, he costs so damned much he can barely fit in an army. Plus his restrictions of powers basically makes him a psychic artillery platform. This has its uses, but he costs as much as 2 Imperial Knights or so, which is a bit much for that. He isn't even gargantuan, so some enterprising pack of snipers are just gonna gun him down.
Emphasis mine.

I'm sorry, but this makes me laugh.  The model is beslubbering huge, his points value is beslubbering huge, but he is going to get stomped to death by a Knight that is half his points!  Although, I figure that if you beslubber up enough that Magnus is getting into combat with a knight, then you deserve to have him stomped.
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Re: The New Thousand Sons: Initial Thoughts
« Reply #2 on: December 7, 2016, 06:30:36 AM »
Given how few models the Ksons can put on the board, there isn't a hell of a lot to stop those knights. Even the much vaunted "Gaze of Magnus" isn't going to be enough.

I guess if he's swooping all the time...

Still, I'd generally prefer a pair of Lords of Change.

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Re: The New Thousand Sons: Initial Thoughts
« Reply #3 on: December 7, 2016, 06:49:03 AM »
I guess he does have FMC working for him, so that helps.  I think the problem will be that a FMC of that size may have difficulty being set down in crowded areas.
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Re: The New Thousand Sons: Initial Thoughts
« Reply #4 on: December 7, 2016, 07:38:52 AM »
Magnus the Red sounds very unimpressive to me.  He is meant to be psychic artillery, his beam of power from Epic was the ultimate super heavy tank destroyer and titan wrecker, assuming it had lost its shields, but he is massive and should be a gargantuan creature.  I hope that GW has just made a mistake there.

The rest sounds in line with that which I was expecting.  I still think that there's enough there for good players to get something out of them, but over dependence on the psychic phase is still a major weakness in this edition of the rules.
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Re: The New Thousand Sons: Initial Thoughts
« Reply #5 on: December 7, 2016, 07:44:34 AM »
I think Magnus is fantastic. A flying monstrous creature who'll probably be shrouded the whole time, with the best re-rollable Invuln save you can get, with more wounds than a Wraithknight and almost equal toughness flying around blasting up to 2 destroyer-class shooting attacks per turn and one of which is a beam hitting everything underneath? I think he's insanely good!

Why would you ever have him tough the ground to engage a Knight? I think he's totally worth his points.

But other than that yeah, the rest of the guys are over-priced and its too difficult to get their special weapons...

While I don't like that as a rules design choice, I do like how they have access to the potentially hundreds of points of cannon fodder via the Horrors. So it may be a workable trade off... sort of like running a 6th edition Iyanden army but with access to a horde of free cannon-fodder and objective holders. You also have summoning to supplement any Horrors you may have actually payed for.

Definitley a more challenging road to go down as opposed to World Eaters, Death Guard or Emperor's Children but I think its very much workable and with the edges given by Magnus himself and all the Horror shenanigans it may end up being very powerful after a number of in-game test drives.
« Last Edit: December 7, 2016, 07:45:42 AM by Cavalier »
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Re: The New Thousand Sons: Initial Thoughts
« Reply #6 on: December 7, 2016, 10:55:29 AM »
To be honest I completely agree with Magnus only being a FMC, even if the model is massive.
With his psychic might and special rules he is easily going to be able to achieve a 2+ Invulnerable or 2+ Jink. To give him Feel no pain on top of this is just going to be nuts. At the moment all he needs is a Malefic Herald and a Biomancy Daemonprince nearby and he is going to be near untouchable.
I don't think you'll ever see Magnus actually ever land unless it's to grab an objective on the last turn. He'll fly around hitting things with easily cast witchfires (including the gaze which is nasty).
Definitely worth his points, if not more.

The rest of the army is a little disappointing though, I do find that the cult Chaos Space Marine units (Plague Marines, Noise Marines, Rubric) do seem to be really quite overpriced and GW don't really want to do anything about it. Even in the new book they aren't changing anything, just offering some new additions to their rules.
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Re: The New Thousand Sons: Initial Thoughts
« Reply #7 on: December 7, 2016, 10:57:29 AM »
The other cults are amazing. Noise Marines with 4+ FNP, combat drugs and sonic wepons with shread and +1 strength is awesome. All death guard units have fearless and relentless, so you can have havocs walking around shooting autocannons.


I almost want to ditch my KDK for a legion. I have just committed so much into buying Daemons, I don't want that money to go to waste. Maybe I'll do Word Bearers or World Eaters

Magnus is cool as a gunboat. He'll dominate the psychic phase, although I think you get better bang for your buck just getting sorcerers.
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Offline Wyddr

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Re: The New Thousand Sons: Initial Thoughts
« Reply #8 on: December 7, 2016, 12:14:23 PM »
While I don't like that as a rules design choice, I do like how they have access to the potentially hundreds of points of cannon fodder via the Horrors. So it may be a workable trade off... sort of like running a 6th edition Iyanden army but with access to a horde of free cannon-fodder and objective holders. You also have summoning to supplement any Horrors you may have actually payed for.

It's worth noting that the Ksons do not have *direct* access to Horrors, but would need to take them in a separate formation (like an allied detachment, etc.). Definitely worth trying, though, if only to try and off-set the low model count.

As for Magnus: how does he get himself a 2++? He can't do it himself (he doesn't have the lores with which to do it--he doesn't select his powers as normal but has *all* the powers in two specific lores), he doesn't have any wargear that gives it to him.

No Telepathy. No Divination. Maybe I'm missing something here, but I don't think this adds up.

Plus, even when pulling warp charge on 2s, he only adds a measly 5 dice to the Psychic die pool. When you factor in his cost, any given army you run is going to be running with a depleted Warp Charge.

As Killersquid says, For Magnus's cost, you could pretty easily squeeze in 12 psychic levels in bog-standard sorcerers (with familiars) and have a cool hundred points left over. Or 8 psychic levels of Exalted Sorcerers. You're pretty close on points to taking the full Ahriman's Exiles formation, which kicks out 10 levels harnessing on 3s, one of which is Ahriman, who is arguably as good a gunboat as any. 

I'm just not that convinced on Big Red.

The other cults are amazing.

Hey! This is the Thousand Sons thread! We haven't spent 10,000 years getting the short end of the stick just to have Death Guard hijack our thread! Go start your own!  ;)

Formations
All right, here's what I think of the various formations the Ksons now have. Let's just assume, for the moment, that I think *everything* is overpriced, and move on from there.

War Cabal
This has some sweet special rules to make their units a little better in the shooting and assault phases, which is very handy. The required two sorcerers is a bit annoying, though. One of the problems I'm running into with the Ksons is finding units in which to stick all the damned sorcerers. It's looking more and more like a unit of nothing but sorcerers is becoming the best solution, but the lack of bullet-catchers for such expensive models is worrisome.

Sekhmet Conclave
I like this one, except for the fact that the durability boost only works if you're close to *two* other units. Since this thing will probably only consist of 3 units (unless somebody goes Ksons Deathwing), they're going to have to spend the whole game walking around in a damned triangle, which sucks.

War Coven
This is a cheaper version of Ahriman's Exiles, but the boosted warp charge for only *one* discipline is annoying for two reasons. Reason the first is that, should you wind up putting all these guys in the same unit (see above), only a couple of them will practically be generating powers from the same discipline, since GW has ruled you can't double up on powers being cast from the same spot. Reason the second is "Look, it's the Telepathy Brothers!" because anybody who takes this is going to try to generate as much invisibility as possible and then spread them out. This is not bad as a strategy goes, but given that much of the *rest* of Telepathy is kinda lame (Shrouded and Psychic Shriek excepted), you'll wind up with a bunch of guys with Domination and crap.

Tzaangor Warherd
I like this one a lot, actually. I think the only real drawback here is that this isn't a core detachment for the Grand Coven formation. Tzaangors get substantially better here--actually worth taking.

Ahriman's Exiles
Damn, this one is tempting. I've always liked Ahriman, and slapping him on a disc with three of his best buds in a kind of Legion of Doom super-villain team is very, very cool. Of course, you're dropping at least Magnus + 60 on this thing to field it (more with Discs), which is rough. But the bonus to harness and the 10 Warp Charge dice *base* is pretty damned awesome.

Rehati War Sect
There's kinda no way to take this formation without spending a godawful amount of points. And then, if Magnus is flying around all the time (which makes sense), everybody else needs to fly around with him. This would lend itself to Daemon Princes, but a Prince of Tzeentch with wings is a major point investment that suddenly means you've got an army of Magnus and 3 Princes and that's it. I'd be curious to see what people can come up with using this one, but I'm guessing it won't be much south of a 2000 point army.   

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Re: The New Thousand Sons: Initial Thoughts
« Reply #9 on: December 7, 2016, 01:22:18 PM »
Magnus would need a little help to get the 2++ but it's not a stretch to do it, either Sanctuary or Cursed Earth will give him +1 and then VoTLW does the rest.
He is a very big points sink but there aren't going to be many games where he dies. It's just whether he can do enough damage to make it worthwhile. I'd say with a Strength D beam he stands a pretty good chance.
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Re: The New Thousand Sons: Initial Thoughts
« Reply #10 on: December 7, 2016, 02:50:10 PM »
You get psychic dice by getting a beslubber-ton of brimstone horrors.
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Re: The New Thousand Sons: Initial Thoughts
« Reply #11 on: December 7, 2016, 04:06:21 PM »
Magnus would need a little help to get the 2++ but it's not a stretch to do it, either Sanctuary or Cursed Earth will give him +1 and then VoTLW does the rest.

Sanctuary can't target him as he cannot cast it. Cursed Earth is a gamble for which you will need to burn lots of power selection rolls on Malefic Daemonology, which sounds attractive until you realize the Ksons *entire* offensive potential basically relies on *not* burning dice summoning daemons.

(And then, in as many games as not, you won't even roll Cursed Earth and will be stuck making perils rolls because you need to use Yhwh-condemneded Infernal Gaze.)

And as for VotLW, the only blessing Magnus can cast himself is the abysmally bad (and I mean straight up awful) Boon of Tzeentch, for which Magnus gets to suffer a weak hit and maybe turn himself into a spawn (100% not worth the risk). So that leaves other guys to cast blessings, which means you can't burn all your psychic selection dice on Malefic (because it, too, has no blessings that can target Magnus).

I guess there's the Grimoire of True Names, so long as you don't mind occasionally cursing the guy. So, yeah the 2++ is something of an uncertainty. Hell, getting him the 3++ is a pain in the ass (well, unless you don't mind the 1-in-18 chance of losing your Lord of War to spawnhood).
 
Quote
He is a very big points sink but there aren't going to be many games where he dies. It's just whether he can do enough damage to make it worthwhile. I'd say with a Strength D beam he stands a pretty good chance.

The problem with the Strength D Beam (and, indeed, the problem with the entire psychic phase) is you have to pay (and handsomely) for any amount of offense you produce. Given the Warp Charge on Gaze of Magnus (which is one higher than it should be, but I digress), even with his special warp harnessing awesomeness, you are going to be spending 6-ish dice to cast that thing, maybe even 7 if you want to feel safe.

That's a big-ass chunk of your psychic phase, all for a beam that may screw up some vehicles, yeah, but might also plonk off a cover save or roll a 1 or even get (somehow) stopped by a Deny roll (if you're targeting some psykers, for instance). You could also just roll a few too many 1s (either in the psychic test or when rolling to damage) and nothing happens.

So you just invested a huge amount of psychic capital on a shot that, optimistically, is going to kill 3 vehicles/gribbles if you've lined it up just perfectly. Much more likely, its going to blow up one vehicle, plonk off the cover save of a second, and Stun/take off a hull point on the third. In the meantime, you might have taken those 7 dice and cast a cool half dozen other powers and shot up more things.

Honestly, were I ever to run Magnus, I don't think I'd touch his beam power with a 10 foot pole unless I had a line of 2-3 Superheavies heading my way. You can get better results for less power by using his other stuff.

You get psychic dice by getting a beslubber-ton of brimstone horrors.

Sure, sure. But, again, Daemon allies are then needed. I'm trying to do this *without* them, frankly.

So, are you then proposing an army including Magnus, some bare bones troops, a herald of Tzeentch, and a hundred billion brimstone horrors? Good god. 
« Last Edit: December 7, 2016, 04:09:12 PM by Wyddr »

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Re: The New Thousand Sons: Initial Thoughts
« Reply #12 on: December 7, 2016, 04:15:26 PM »
Why would you ever have him tough the ground to engage a Knight? I think he's totally worth his points.

Well, for one if you only have him flying around and never touches the ground, then you are wasting that impressive Primarch stat line.  Also, just because you are flying around avoiding the knight doesn't mean the knight won't get an opportunity to stomp your precious Primarch.  One wound sneaks through and you fail that crash test and it is time for some stompy-stomp!
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Re: The New Thousand Sons: Initial Thoughts
« Reply #13 on: December 7, 2016, 06:43:52 PM »

So, are you then proposing an army including Magnus, some bare bones troops, a herald of Tzeentch, and a hundred billion brimstone horrors? Good god.

180pts gets you six objective secured units and 6 more psychic dice. Stick all the horrors in cover, and they can go to ground for 4+ or 3+ cover saves, re-rolling 1's. Then take Fate Weaver as the HQ.

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Re: The New Thousand Sons: Initial Thoughts
« Reply #14 on: December 7, 2016, 07:23:05 PM »
That's pretty obscene.

I haven't really got into what Daemons got in this book  (different thread), but they made out like bandits.

They need to get blue and brimstone horror boxes out pronto, though.

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Re: The New Thousand Sons: Initial Thoughts
« Reply #15 on: December 8, 2016, 07:24:43 AM »
Yeah sorry Wydrr I should have elaborated on that. I talk in sort of short-hand sometimes thanks to Killersquid for explaining for me.

Yeah so with just a small wing of Daemons and Thousand Sons and Magnus OWN the psychic phase. Magnus + Fateweaver (or even just another Daemon Prince if you don't want go totally crazy) with a wing of 3-4 Horror units (and summoning more). With a good core of Thousand Sons with a Sorcerer or two leading a elite band of Rubrics (with their own Sorcerors) and you are just dominating the psychic phase. You are just slinging so many psychic dice you'll never wanting for more especially with all the modified rolls they get to manifest their powers.

@GML- Heheh its certainly possible, but I wouldn't worry to much about that. It'll take severely unlucky rolls considering how insane his various saving throws are, plus he's re-rolling some of those failed saves, on top of his fantastic toughness and then failing the ground check and be in range of the knight and then not beat him in combat (where he'll certainly be challenged). It would be tragic if it happened, but if you get that lucky to ground the Big Man I say you deserve to stomp him out! lol  ;D ;D ;D
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Re: The New Thousand Sons: Initial Thoughts
« Reply #16 on: December 8, 2016, 07:31:19 AM »
Even more crazy if you take pink horrors instead of brimstones. Unless they kill the whole squad in one phase, you'll keep generating new units of blue horrors who are Ml1 and generate their own powers too, and then they will spawn new units of brimstone horrors who generate psychic dice as well.

Horrors were already the best troops, now they are obscene. Split is the dumbest rule for 40k.
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Re: The New Thousand Sons: Initial Thoughts
« Reply #17 on: December 8, 2016, 08:36:42 AM »
Soul Blaze is still the dumbest rule. Or random Daemon gifts, if taken 50+ times to make the pre-game setup longer than the actual game...

...I dunno. I would say they're "better" but not good enough to truly be take-all-comers. I can at least see them being an allied/secondary component to another Chaos army now, which is something I otherwise wouldn't have recommended.

On one hand, the formations are mostly overcosted with questionable bonuses and most the new units overpriced; it's not until you reach 2000 pts that you can reasonably try to run a max War Cabal for reroll 1s on saves. While rerolling Perils results is nice, casting an extra power beyond your ML generally doesn't matter since the Tzeentch Primaris is still so awful! I "know" it's there for casting Force+another power, but still...I suppose you could be cheeky and take a minimized War Cabal so you have models to man a Plasma Obliterator, thanks to the FAQ allowing reroll 1s to protect against Gets Hot...

On the other hand, there are some dirty tricks here and there. With Ectomancy, it's possible to get a Daemon Prince with a 2++ rerollable, but that itself cannot be relied on. The Astral Grimoire screams utility of course.

Despite Firestorm being so awful, I would say the rest of the Lore of Tzeentch has...improved considerably. Treason of Tzeentch is obviously going to be awesome ("mind if I borrow your Stormsurge? Thanks!") That said, I imagine a BL Cyclopea Cabal could do that better with a lower Sorcerer tax, and getting Shroud of Deception on top. The Focused Witchfire is...potentially decent for chipping wounds off MCs, even before accounting for the chance of ID-Spawnhood.

Siphon Magic is going to be the funniest though. Have Magnus cast it first, his buddies cast their spells, then have him finish off. The RAW for it is funny and will definitely require a FAQ, but a literal reading would allow you to use it to "store" dice between turns to gradually amp your Psychic Phase.

Speaking of Magnus, while he is expensive, I think he might actually be usable. 2+ Manifestation, plus auto-knowing powers + immunity to Perils does have its advantages...just watch out for Dark Eldar of course. While folks are gushing about D and guaranteed Doombolts, he also can reliably summon Burning Chariots as Pseudo-Heldrakes.

I don't like Exalted Sorcerers that much due to their restricted options, and being stuck with only a Force Staff. Discs are nice of course but otherwise meh. I can see one of them with Seers Bane being usable as a beatstick; the one from the Warherd formation gets Fleet at least. The bonuses for Tzaangors are nice...except the Run and Charge doesn't work if you join any units to them...so make sure you win that combat or can make them Fearless some other way (...Telepathy it looks like). If I really want to spam Witchfires for a War Cabal...might as well stick with Ahriman, get Infiltrate, and reroll 1s on BS 5. Stick him on a disc and fish on Biomancy for Iron Arm, and he becomes a killing machine. Or he can life leech.

I kind of like the Scarab Terminators in concept. I wouldn't field them but I can see them being usable, at least before one takes Grav into account. I imagine the most realistic option would be one or two units tops as shooting support+additional WC batteries.

Rubric Marines are still pretty bad though. The extra equipment is still not worth it. At least the Tzeentch Lore is more usable now, and with Blessing of Tzeentch, you can run Sorcerer as an assassin/Monster hunter. Pop Force, and he and his unit now get a 3++ as well (don't forget the Grimoire of course).

Removing moderation comments is as against the forum rules as posting excessive stats, so please refrain from doing so - Iris.
« Last Edit: December 9, 2016, 05:18:17 AM by Irisado »

Offline Wyddr

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Re: The New Thousand Sons: Initial Thoughts
« Reply #18 on: December 8, 2016, 09:16:54 AM »
Generally agreed on most counts, MagicJuggler. I do still like Exalted Sorcerers for their boosted BS and A stats, if nothing else--takes a bit of randomness and risk out of the psychic phase (they hit with witchfire more often) and makes them less attractive assault options. Granted they can't carve through power armor, but on a disc with that strength makes everything less than that worry a lot.

@Cavalier

No one is saying you can't dominate the psychic phase. What I'm saying is dominating the psychic phase *isn't enough.* The army you just described is about 2000 points, assuming you take it with minimal options or boosts. It draws 20 dice in the psychic phase, so great, but it also contains a grand total of 8 Inferno Bolters and four bolt pistols and has only one assault unit worth a damn (Magnus). So, you might win the psychic phase, but you lose in every single other phase.

And the psychic phase is the least reliable phase of them all! Witchfire, which is what you will absolutely need in order to even hope to compete, requires, on average, 2 dice per power to use. Witchfires are also basically equivalent to heavy weapons of various description, so you've kinda purchased a 2000 point army with 10 heavy weapons, 25% of which won't even shoot most phases. If we pretend to ignore this by saying "well, Magnus will always get off 5 witchfires" and we don't summon anything or waste dice on blessings, that's still *approximately* 10 heavy weapons firing per turn. The real kicker then becomes that (1) some of those heavy weapons won't work because they'll be denied and (2) you don't even get to pick the heavy weapons in question before each game. Hopefully you begin to see the problem.

So, instead of taking Magnus, you could take Ahriman's Exiles (by shaving points off Horrors and saving points by taking a Daemon Prince instead of Fateweaver, perhaps) and rock 25 dice and try to throw even more dice at the problem and have more of those dice boosted and hope for the best. But you're still engaged in a losing struggle against more armies, who can invest points on reliably firing heavy weapons that work *every turn* and often have better range and are available more cheaply.

I've been dominating psychic phases for ages (an old school Tzeentchian sorcerer here) and I can tell you, with confidence, that psychic power has never been very good. Granted it is better now than it ever has been, but tales of its supremacy are greatly exaggerated. Outside of a couple game-changing powers (Invisibility, some of the funkier movement powers like Writhing Worldscape), it's really just a literally random collection of overpriced, unreliable heavy weapons with Split Fire. Dropping the cost of a couple Knight-class superheavies on one dude to try and make that work better is impractical to my eyes.

Now, go ahead and prove me wrong by taking Magnus and wrecking face, but I've been screwing with the damned psychic phase long enough (and been *consistently* disappointed) to say that I'm very, very skeptical of any guy that expensive who only has those tools at his disposal. If the list you describe is a winner, it is mostly because the damned Horrors split so often that they overwhelm the board with numbers and score objectives. 
   

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Re: The New Thousand Sons: Initial Thoughts
« Reply #19 on: December 8, 2016, 09:18:30 AM »
EDIT: @Wydrr- Typed all this while you were posting! But yeah, the list concept I'm describing is not pure Rubric Marines. It leans heavy on Magnus,the Horrors, summoning with the actual Marines operating in an elite shock troop role. Also the way I'm envisioning the use of the psychic phase is not as an auto-win exploit, more just a very strong advantage in that phase of the game. So yeah its totally a hybrid approach but one I think will be very strong.

While still too expensive in my opinion I actually like the Rubric Marines and Terminators as sort of ultra-elite Sternguard type unit. I would only use a few of them 2x5 or 3x5 max, probably using a Chaos Storm Eagle to drop them off to wipe out high priority MEQ type units and even more deadly units like Scatter Laser jetbikes, Ravenwing Black Knights or White Scars bikers.  They can blast them with their AP3 guns and I'd definitley have one of those nasty flamers they have too which'll deny saves of any kind to MEQ regardless of jink.

Terminators I'd lean heavy on those flamers deepstriking them in and uprooting any high value MEQ or biker units.

I'd then swamp the rest of my opponent with Horrors while Magnus and Fateweaver cruise around buffing and blasting.

I think that kind of combo will not only be very competitive but also fluffy and fun. You balance the endless hordes of Horrors and all the cheesiness that comes with that by having expensive, challenging to play units like Rubric Marines and Occult Terminators who can actually go and dislodge stuff with all their low AP guns and flamers.

Still expensive, still challenging but definitely workable. In my preliminary estimation, I think its gonna be more effective by a decent margin than say Deathwing or possibly even Iyanden Wraithost builds. Their is a lot of variety with Flyers, Summoning, hordes of infantry and super elite shock units like the Rubric Marines and Scarab Terminators.
« Last Edit: December 8, 2016, 09:24:32 AM by Cavalier »
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