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Author Topic: 1850 - Wraithbikes and the big D - Competitive.  (Read 2605 times)

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Offline Lyonic

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1850 - Wraithbikes and the big D - Competitive.
« on: July 27, 2015, 03:49:47 PM »
Windrider Host

Farseer Skyrunner
Warlock Skyrunner
Windriders x3
Windriders x3
Windriders x3
Vyper

Wraith Host

Spiritseer
Wraithguard x5
Waveserpent
Wraithguard x5
Waveserpent
Wraithguard x5
Waveserpent
Wraithlord + Dual Flamers
Wraithknight + Ghostglaive & Scattershield

Heros of the Craftworlds

Eldrad Ulthran


This is the list I have been using for a while now. Its just jam packed full of Eldar trickery, that if the gods are looking down on you, has one of the most powerful alphas in the game. The army is suited to high point elite armies or those with highpoint single models like knights etc. This army is very vulnerable to turn 1 Alpha.

So, why such a crazy list? At the start of the game you line up your wave serpents ready to advance. Jetbikes you can do what you want with but I like to hide them, along with the warlock and viper tax units.


Inside the middle waveserpent is Eldrad and the spiritseer. By taking Eldrad you get d3 scout which in this army is huge. So you scout Eldrads serpent first then, if you get lucky, scout the others.

Alrighty so turn 1 Eldar.

6" Waveserpents move forward while spinning and presenting their rears to the enemy.
6" Dis-embark the wraithguard and co

Psychic phase - Invisibility, Forewarning, Fortune are the spells you will have hoped to have gained and hopefully you get them off.

Shooting.

6" Battle-focus and shooting time!

If you add up the 6" scout, 6" serpent move, 6" disembark, 6" battlefocus and your 12" range that's, 36" range or picture your units being able to shoot whatever is on the table.

Because of the formation, your spiritseer should be within 18" of whatever you are shooting, meaning all 15 d-weapons become twinlinked.

This is really devastating. If your opponent has anything on the table it can be taken off with pretty much a certainty. You can take out 3 big models or combine fire if needed to take out big deathstar units.

The wraithknight and wraithlord make their way all the time and should be good to attack turn 2.

Make sure if there is any chance of being attacked in combat, to cast things like prescience or force on the HQ squad.

==================================================================

So that's the list, let me know what you think. There are 0 points to spend on anything else its that's tight. I chose to sacrifice things like scatbikes, d-scyhes etc so I could bring eldrad and get that scout move. I feel that its mega important that turn 1 goes well and its worth it.

Offline Partninja

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Re: 1850 - Wraithbikes and the big D - Competitive.
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2015, 05:07:16 PM »
I'm not sure you really need the warhost or the wraithhost. Seems a CAD could fit all of the same things without any model taxes. Your bikes get objective secured which will be more beneficial since you're hiding them for late game grabs. Only loss would be the 3rd HQ.

Offline Lyonic

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Re: 1850 - Wraithbikes and the big D - Competitive.
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2015, 05:39:57 PM »
Erm.. Do u own a codex? XD

the formations gives me battlefocus om wraith units and guarenteed 6" rrun..

its like without the formations this just would not work at all

without mobility, wraith units will be kited.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2015, 05:47:23 PM by Lyonic »

Offline Partninja

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Re: 1850 - Wraithbikes and the big D - Competitive.
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2015, 07:00:56 PM »
I do in fact own the codex. Your wraithguard have ranged weapons, and are in transports. Battlefocus is hardly needed. I don't buy into bonus rules when it costs extra for them, and they're really not needed if played properly. Not to mention your 36" gimmicks is easily counterable, or totally messed up is several circumstances.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2015, 07:04:13 PM by Partninja »

Offline Lyonic

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Re: 1850 - Wraithbikes and the big D - Competitive.
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2015, 07:38:25 PM »
Well having 36" range is a pretty big deal. I would be curious how you would counter it? And jst ao u know.. Alot of people don't know about the 36" range thing so last tourney i didn't lose a game xD

Offline Partninja

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Re: 1850 - Wraithbikes and the big D - Competitive.
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2015, 08:15:23 PM »
With the right amount of AT, and proper target priority, this list is easily neutered by popping the Serpents early. Namely, the one with you spiritseer. Horde armies won't be too afraid of your wraithguard either. Just allows Tyranids and Orks to not run as far to get to you :)

Sadly, now you have lost the element of surprise.

This is a very niche, and one trick pony list. Doesn't leave you very flexible.

Offline Lyonic

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Re: 1850 - Wraithbikes and the big D - Competitive.
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2015, 09:29:14 PM »
Sure it has some weaknesses, but it is pretty resilient with alot of toughness 6 and 8. The tax u its can still hold backfield objectives and having a strong psychic core is handy. Ill throw my wraithknight and lord into these hordes and watch as they tell me they cant hurt them. The wraithguard hopefully taking out their big hitters turn 1 makes me last a while.
you say there is no flexibility however a wraithknight, wraithlord, 3 units of jetbikes able to snag objectives along with the bikelock. Not to mention a strong psychic centre with eldrad, ss and skyrunner. Again having the wraithhost giving twin linkage to all wraith units in shooting and combat is huge. A 6" run on something like a lord really helps him get through the cover into battle. Having 430 pts of psychers is handy too. As i said though you are vulnerable to a turn 1 alpha but, because you deploy second, you can easily hide or out range the enemy. Even still, placing the jetbikes in the open to take some jinks or jinking the serpents will negate some of the damage. I have only lost once in 15 or so games with this list so its not like it hasent done well.

Offline dog_of_war

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Re: 1850 - Wraithbikes and the big D - Competitive.
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2015, 08:02:32 AM »
Don't think you're invincible against horde armies. Orks can take enough power klaws and killsaws to make your wraith units have a really bad day. And being a horde they can put enough models up front to take any overwatch or higher initiative strikes before they deliver their blows. Put a couple of ork mobs against your knight and he's going to be tarpitted the whole game.

Offline Wyddr

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Re: 1850 - Wraithbikes and the big D - Competitive.
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2015, 10:18:50 AM »
Well having 36" range is a pretty big deal. I would be curious how you would counter it?

By deploying 37" away? Or only leaving units which your D-Cannons don't do too much to (horde infantry) in range?

Then there's the games where you don't get first turn and can shoot down 1-2 of those Wave Serpents before you close.

Don't get me wrong--I think this is a strong list with a neat opening move. It's hardly foolproof, though. It would suck playing certain armies against this (Marines, for instance, unless they tailored to you, but even then various grav-heavy lists or bike lists would do fine), but other armies wouldn't be terribly bothered (Tau, Dark Eldar, Orks). They just need to drop back a few inches and your alpha strike is delayed by a turn--a turn they have to counter it.

You're bringing all Wraith stuff. Armies that have good counters to Wraith stuff are going to play just fine. Oh, and never, ever rely on the psychic phase. It's the least reliable part of the game by far, even when playing Eldar.

Offline Lyonic

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Re: 1850 - Wraithbikes and the big D - Competitive.
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2015, 11:47:42 AM »
From my 12" deployment zone, 36" is their table edge. There wouldent be alot of places to hide with that kind of movement. Also they have a 30" threat range all game so its not just at the start.

i would say Eldrad is the best caster in the game bar a seer council. He gets charges back has runes of seer and is at the highest level of mastery.


i still say the wraithknight is capable against hordes. Most models cant hurt him and stomps are basically counter horde.

Offline Wyddr

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Re: 1850 - Wraithbikes and the big D - Competitive.
« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2015, 12:05:47 PM »
From my 12" deployment zone, 36" is their table edge.

In exactly 33% of all games. Unless all you do is play Dawn of War.

And the psychic phase can always, always screw you over. It has three levels of uncertainty (rolling the power, getting the power off, avoiding Deny rolls) even before you get into the uncertainty inherent in the regular game. Add in all the re-rolls you want, and it is still prone to failure more than any other phase.

Offline dog_of_war

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Re: 1850 - Wraithbikes and the big D - Competitive.
« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2015, 12:30:29 PM »
Just to compare orks to a wraithknight in close combat. For the points of a vanilla wraithknight you can gain 12 nobs with a big choppa and throw in a waaagh banner to up their WS. Let's say that at the higher initiative the wraithknight makes statistically 50% of its attacks and we can assume both are a kill unless a 1 is rolled. Thats' 2 orks down. That leaves 10 nobz. On the charge that's 40 attacks at one under the knights toughness, at a higher WS than the knight. That's statistically almost 27 hits causing 9 wounds. Sure you have a save, but you'll take on average 3 of those wounds. Now orks never fight alone, add two of those units against your knight and he's toast even before you try your stomp attack.

I'll compare 3 units of regular boyz with a nob with a power klaw, which is 10 less points than a wraithknight. The knight makes his 2 kills. The klaws hit the same time as his stomp attacks. Statistically half go through, wounding on 3s that's 4 wounds on average.

A warboss on his own with a killchoppa dishes out 5 attacks at a higher WS and at a strength equal to your toughness and has rending and instant death and he's worth a third of your knight.

Add a combination of any 2 of these units and the knights dead before you can even make those stomp attacks and that's assuming the knight goes in at full wounds. Putting him on that table makes him an instant bullet magnet. You'd have to be pretty lucky to go 2 or 3 turns without taking a wound.

You also shouldn't rely on winning a combat resolution. Even if you end the phase alive and win combat most horde armies, once they're in close combat are almost impossible to break. Orks mob rule keeps them stuck in pretty well and 'nids aren't running any time soon.

Offline haunt

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Re: 1850 - Wraithbikes and the big D - Competitive.
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2015, 10:39:45 AM »
A warboss on his own with a killchoppa dishes out 5 attacks at a higher WS and at a strength equal to your toughness and has rending and instant death and he's worth a third of your knight.

This one I can't see this happening, since a gargantuan can't be I-Ded, and the WK will attack first and hope your warboss survives all those glaive hits, since their at Str D.

To not even digress further, I like the list try it and do remember that a great list is nice to look at but once it comes in contact with your opponent in a game everything changes.
This is where Death rejoices, as he teaches the living.

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Offline Wyddr

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Re: 1850 - Wraithbikes and the big D - Competitive.
« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2015, 11:31:25 AM »
This one I can't see this happening, since a gargantuan can't be I-Ded, and the WK will attack first and hope your warboss survives all those glaive hits, since their at Str D.

Two problems here:

1) The Warboss is not in a challenge with the WK (which isn't a character) and so those Strength D attacks will kill Nobs, not the Warboss.

2) ID does have a potent and important effect on Gargantuan Creatures. Check the BRB.

Quote
To not even digress further, I like the list try it and do remember that a great list is nice to look at but once it comes in contact with your opponent in a game everything changes.

100% right on this. You can't expect complicated plans to work all the time (or even much of the time), so try to remain flexible and have back-up plans.

As I've mentioned, this isn't a bad list by any means. It can't just rely on the Alpha Strike plan, though. That can go south quick, even by just having second turn.

Offline Lyonic

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Re: 1850 - Wraithbikes and the big D - Competitive.
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2015, 10:30:08 PM »
You have a 50% chance of going first, pet the dice. And a 16% chance to seize as does your opponent.

as for the comments about 33% of the time having the right board well... I beg to differ. How many games have you played where someone hides his army at the extremeties of the map? How many people when they see an Eldar list lined up along the deployment line will think. "ok ive got till turn 2 before they can do anything". To know our tricks you have to know Eldrad's warlord trait, the wraith host bonus, matchless agility bonus and add that all together with a turn 1 disembark. Now i will admit maybe some might know but most don't. And even if they do; they what, place their entire army 36" away from me and out of range of their shooting? How many armies have 36" ranged weapons in enough supply to kill 3 jinking serpents.. Perhaps with night fighting. It matters not, the point is that even if i don't get to shoot till turn 2, my list is strong enough without the turn 1 trickery. I have not always had the opportunity to use it, but i still win the matches.. I have alot of t8 and t6. And i can promise you one thing, by turn 3 your lines will be knee deep in wraiths. Heck i even throw forward all my bikes sometimes.. Kind of a sacrifice. The amount of times people have wasted shooting on bikes while my wraith units deliver my D to their lines....


as for hordes well... Sure, its gonna be tough. I still have 3 waveserpents, 9 bikes and a couple of flamers before you take my D. Not to mention i can keep everything in my tanks and kite you if i have too. I would not shy away from the challenge that's for sure!
its also worth noting things like psychic powers. I do Generate 4+3+2+1= 10 dice that can help either shoot, buff, maledict etc. Things like fear from my wraithknight get scarier to weak minded enemies, easily corrupted!
« Last Edit: July 30, 2015, 10:32:24 PM by Lyonic »

Offline Spectral Arbor

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Re: 1850 - Wraithbikes and the big D - Competitive.
« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2015, 11:33:45 PM »
Whenever you are relying upon your opponent to "not know" something, you're running a one-trick-pony list. Because next time, they will know. :)

If your opponent asks what Eldrad's trait is, they'll know you've got a redeployment in the works.

EVERYONE knows what Eldar get for their Decurion bonus. :)

So when they read your list, and figure out you're going for Alpha-Omega, they will deploy back. Or take reserves. Or counter the Alpha-move by splitting forces. Or Super-Castle. A veteran opponent has seen this style before. Pods were once a way to victory. As was the Rhino Rush. ..

It looks like a strong list. The very theme I'd expect from a fully competitive list. I'd say it will depend how seasoned your opposition is. I mean, I'd probably rock at least one unit with Scythes, but that's just me.

With your Psykers, you're unlikely to generate more than one instance of Invis... and then you've got to get it to go off. You'll want to throw at least 5 dice at it, even with higher-than usual ability to harness warp charge. You don't want it denied. And then you're risking Perils, which doesn't stop the power that turn, but if you're dead you don't get to rock again. :) And it's one unit at 1850 pts. Yes, that will be the Wraithknight, because you want a melee beast to take most advantage of that power.

I dunno. I'm facing off against lots of Knights and Necrons these days. If the Necros get your WG into combat, they're screwed. If they manage to down your WK, or severely weaken it, they'll chop him down with the Necro Super-Scythe. And you'll see it on the required Overlord. :)

One of the best Knight formations gives a bonus to their already respectable Invul. They will rip and tear you, if they get to combat. Which they will, if you're barreling head first into them.

Solid list, but I think you've weakened it by skipping the Scats and Scythes altogether.

Offline Lyonic

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Re: 1850 - Wraithbikes and the big D - Competitive.
« Reply #16 on: July 31, 2015, 12:26:07 AM »
Thanks for your reply spectral. This is like the best reply so far. On your points.

This new list includes eldrad. Before i used to roll one unit of scythes, all cannon bikes etc. The reason i took Eldrad and trimmed the fat was because yes i get scout, but i also get Another psycher. I don't like spiritseers. They are cool and all but i feel runes of the seer are just to good. Having eldrad and the skyrunner roll on Tele should give me invis. (i know you are not guaranteed anything but cmon). More importantly still, he has a force weapon with fleshbane at MEQ Ap. So its not too bad. Oh and a 33% chance to harness a warp charge after a spell is handy. Not to mention ghosthelm... Another thing the spiritseer lacks.

what i like about my list is its high toughness. By casting stuff like invisibility on the wraithknight or my HQ unit, people usually hit on 6's and then 6's to wound. Cuts down alot of dice. I do feel fortune is up there for the wraithknight for useful spells. Having to pass 4 saves before you take a wound is OP imo.

The main thing is by your turn you should have 3 units of wraiths, with eldrad, spiritseer and farseer there. (farseer joins squad after disembark). A wraithknight ready to charge next turn. A wraithlord who people always forget about being high toughness and ap TEQ with dual flamers. And if i feel like it I throw all my bikes and the vyper forward. If only to give my opponent choices. I find when you give your opponent choices he has the chance to make a mistake. EG shooting bikes or a solo vyper for an easy firstblood, while my wraith goto town
 Or focusing fire. Its amazing how many times people ignore the wraithknight and shoot the wgaurd even though the knight is a way bugger threat. (fear, blind, HoW, Dtable to wound with the same number of attacks as 5 wraithguard have shots, with re-rolls thanks to seer oh and stomp)

 


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