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Author Topic: Shining spears vs Armour  (Read 3600 times)

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Offline Lyonic

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Shining spears vs Armour
« on: September 1, 2015, 03:17:39 PM »
How effective is a squad of 3 bikes with the exarch and star lance at killing say, a land raider?

Offline Ibushi

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Re: Shining spears vs Armour
« Reply #1 on: September 1, 2015, 03:50:13 PM »
Not very effective.

With mid strength lances, the two riders are not going to do much, and are basically your exarch-delivery-system. Best case scenario they cause one hull point between shooting and charging.

With one high strength shot, the exarch has just under a 50/50 chance of removing a hull point in shooting.

Then you should be able to charge, at which point the exarch gets 3 swings, each with a slightly lower chance of taking a HP again. So maybe 2 HP between all of his shooting and combat.

Excepting freakish luck, you may glance out the land raider in one turn, but it is unlikely.
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Offline Partninja

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Re: Shining spears vs Armour
« Reply #2 on: September 1, 2015, 05:53:01 PM »
A squad of Swooping Hawks would be much more effective.

Offline Ibushi

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Re: Shining spears vs Armour
« Reply #3 on: September 1, 2015, 06:03:47 PM »
I did forget to mention the Exarch's ability to re-roll armour penetration, which helps a fair bit, but it is still a longshot.

In my opinion Spears just need a few tweaks to make them brutal:

#1) Lances should be AP2/AP3, with that extra AP on the charge, whereas star lance is AP2/AP2
#2) They need 2 base attacks, or some way to gain an extra attack, one attack each is just silly.
#3) Why did they lose hit & run? They had it stock last edition, and for purchase before that...

Would make more sense for the Exarch's current ability to become their "stock" aspect power instead of Aerobatic Grace, and for the new Exarch ability to be Hit & Run. Aerobatic Grace is kind of annoying considering they get a 3+ jink anyway.

In terms of sheer disruption power or tank glancing ability, especially for points, the cake goes to Hawks and even spiders. Last codex I tried several times to use Shining Spears, and really struggled.

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Offline Grizzlykin

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Re: Shining spears vs Armour
« Reply #4 on: September 1, 2015, 06:32:50 PM »
Why do you say hawks are better? Just so that i know, because grenade can only be used once when shooting.

Ah and they did not have hit and run stock, not last codex at least you had to buy it. I'm pretty sure of this.
« Last Edit: September 2, 2015, 05:51:42 AM by Grizzlykin »
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Re: Shining spears vs Armour
« Reply #5 on: September 1, 2015, 06:55:34 PM »
Swooping Hawks are better at killing armour because of their speed and Haywire Grenades.
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Offline Fenris

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Re: Shining spears vs Armour
« Reply #6 on: September 1, 2015, 08:13:37 PM »
How effective is a squad of 3 bikes with the exarch and star lance at killing say, a land raider?
From shooting:
0.42 glance & 0.43 pen OR 0.31 glance & 0.46 pen if you re-roll glances.
and from melee:
0.94 glance & 1 pen OR 0.67 glance & 1.11 pen if you re-roll glances.

All pens are AP2 so 1/6 will explode the LR potentially doing 0,1,2 or 3 HP bonus damage.
(0+1+2+3)/4/6 = 0.25 That means alla pens can be multiplied by 1.25 to get the total average HP damage.

That gives us a total of 3.15 HP (2.94HP if re-rolling glances)

They are not horribly bad, but I wouldn't rely on them.
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Offline haunt

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Re: Shining spears vs Armour
« Reply #7 on: September 1, 2015, 08:23:49 PM »
Their actual usage is more against Lightly armored vehicles, monstrous critter hunting or small squad destroyers or clean-up. IF you really want armour destruction that's another aspect warriors' job, since they're fully equipped for it. Fragons (Falcon + Dragon combo.)
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Offline Lyonic

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Re: Shining spears vs Armour
« Reply #8 on: September 2, 2015, 03:24:44 AM »
The main reason in asking about spears is because they have the best mobility of any anti armour. Being able to hide them behind los cover then move 12and charge 2-12 gives them a good bit of manoeuvring. To be honest, in going to be using these puppies in a 750 list, so was thinking about including the autarch with a lance and banshee mask.

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Re: Shining spears vs Armour
« Reply #9 on: September 2, 2015, 05:57:13 AM »
oh do you know what you are playing against ? I mean what army because that just flashed into my head but shinning spear might be excelent at hunting far away target hidding in the back of the enemy army, you could possibly be in cc by turn 1 or 2 for something like devastator or reaper for example. I think that's more the job of this guy's, or hunt light armor vehicule, kinda like ryhno and razorback, or landspeeder and vyper, because they can keep up with there speed. I'm not too sure going for heavy armor is you best bet with these guy's but it's worth the try.
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Re: Shining spears vs Armour
« Reply #10 on: September 2, 2015, 08:21:38 AM »
In a scale that small, then IF you have to worry about AV14s then you won't have to worry about speed from your opponent or vice versa due to the point requirements.

In any case relying on them to do that job is a bit of a tall order and hopefully you don't to bogged down by it.

The jetbike autarch is just as good as the regular spears, since his weapon is the same as theirs. The exarch is the only change out the group. Hope that helps in your decision.
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Offline Partninja

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Re: Shining spears vs Armour
« Reply #11 on: September 2, 2015, 09:54:04 AM »
Why do you say hawks are better? Just so that i know, because grenade can only be used once when shooting.

Ah and they did not have hit and run stock, not last codex at least you had to buy it. I'm pretty sure of this.

you can only throw one per squad in the shooting phase. However, in assault, they all get a haywire attack :) 5-6 models should easily net you 3-4 glances.

Offline davethemadorc

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Re: Shining spears vs Armour
« Reply #12 on: September 2, 2015, 06:31:02 PM »
6 dragons is a reliable number to take down a raider at 6" - especially if they can charge to finish it off

6 hawks isnt enough to be 'reliable' even with an exarch getting a grenade hit on a '2'  with 6 more attacks in cc you 'should' get at least four glances - but i reckon to be safe you need to run hawks in sevens

running 6 dragons and a ship or 7 hawks that then have survivability issues starts to make a group of four shining spears like a reasonable option - put an exarch in there with a fusion gun and haywire grenade and there 'speed around the table' and better survivability make them look a bit more attractive.

not supposed to go into point values. but i would generally rate fragons as the best option - but if you are playing lots of armour 3 opponents - then squadrons of shining spears arent terribad. 

and yes i know ppl rave about them but in my meta hawks are just blood and feathers !!!

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Re: Shining spears vs Armour
« Reply #13 on: September 2, 2015, 07:27:27 PM »
To give you guys a little feedback; played a few games with shinig spears today. Turn 1 i turboboosted my spears with autarch into a building where my enemy was hiding his thunderfire. Which i killed sharp. Firedragons or hawks can only dream of that mobility. Running an all jetbike list, this allows me to stay mobile while being able to deal a hammer blow if i need to with 12" move 3d6 charge (choose best 2). Having skilled rider means i can boost into LOS blocking terrain also. These units are also fun to play and i feel they look badass! Which is a bonus!

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Re: Shining spears vs Armour
« Reply #14 on: September 2, 2015, 08:17:52 PM »
Badass factor definitely counts.

How do you get 3D6 charging, that is news to me.
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Offline Lyonic

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Re: Shining spears vs Armour
« Reply #15 on: September 3, 2015, 03:40:28 AM »
Because they are jetbikes! Woop! Atleast that's what i heard last night

Offline Grizzlykin

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Re: Shining spears vs Armour
« Reply #16 on: September 3, 2015, 04:31:28 AM »
Huuuu btw you can't so anithing after you turbo bost normally ... did i read that wrong aswell?
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Re: Shining spears vs Armour
« Reply #17 on: September 3, 2015, 07:38:00 AM »
Because they are jetbikes! Woop! Atleast that's what i heard last night
Jetbikes charge the same way as everyone else; but in cases where they are not charging, they are able to move in the assault phase by rolling that many dice.
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Offline Partninja

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Re: Shining spears vs Armour
« Reply #18 on: September 3, 2015, 07:47:50 AM »
6 dragons is a reliable number to take down a raider at 6" - especially if they can charge to finish it off

6 hawks isnt enough to be 'reliable' even with an exarch getting a grenade hit on a '2'  with 6 more attacks in cc you 'should' get at least four glances - but i reckon to be safe you need to run hawks in sevens

running 6 dragons and a ship or 7 hawks that then have survivability issues starts to make a group of four shining spears like a reasonable option - put an exarch in there with a fusion gun and haywire grenade and there 'speed around the table' and better survivability make them look a bit more attractive.

not supposed to go into point values. but i would generally rate fragons as the best option - but if you are playing lots of armour 3 opponents - then squadrons of shining spears arent terribad. 

and yes i know ppl rave about them but in my meta hawks are just blood and feathers !!!

Of course a dedicated AT unit is best at AT. However, 5 dragons and a transport costs more than a 5-6 man squad of hawks or a min squad of Spears. That was my only reason for mentioning them at all, and the fact that the Hawks would be more efficient, in a bubble, than spears when going against armor. Obviously there are other factors.

Adding in Fusion gun Autarch isn't a worth while point, as they are not inherent to the squads themselves, and can be added to any of them for the same effect.
« Last Edit: September 3, 2015, 07:49:19 AM by Partninja »

Offline Lyonic

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Re: Shining spears vs Armour
« Reply #19 on: September 3, 2015, 08:14:05 AM »
The problem i felt with fire dragons are it takes too long for them to be able to kill for their points cost. Aye true enough if they get within 6 inch few are better.

in my 75o a host is not possible so no battlefocus 6". Aslong with that u need a serpent which is really expensive as its around 220 for both. Now a serpent can move 12" and flat out 18", giving you 30" threat range. It also means next turn the enemy has to be within 7-12" of the serpent and within 12" of the guns minimum. Never mind melta range. So a flatted out serpent has a threat range of 19"-24". So the chances of the serpent lasting until my turn are very slim. Sure i can jink but i feel it will die. This means the troops are out in the open ready to take saves. You only have to kill a few dragons out a 5 man to make them unreliable and that's 220 points gone. If they do manage to kill their target they have rubbish movement in the rest of the game and will struggle to grab objectives.

now consider you could have more tank killing models for the price of the dragons and transport.. Not to mention, skilled rider and 12" move 2-12" charge range.


i feel in my circumstances the spears off more as objective takers. Remeber aswel if there is no armour the dragons are kinda useless.. Whereas the spears can grab and hold objectives anywhere on the board!

 


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