Topic: World of darkness

[Irandrura]

Wraith was always my favourite due to how easy it was to slot such stories into any theme and/or time period without much loss. Mage and Vampire were close seconds each due to their own background qualities. Now, the Technocracy myself and my peers could fit right behind as we were all uni students at the time. 

I rather like the Technocracy. As villains go, they actually make some sense. The Sabbat in Vampire was far too vulnerable to simply being evil for the sake of evil - Chaotic Stupid, if you know the expression. Pentex had motivations as three-dimensional and well thought out as those of a Captain Planet villain. 'Mwahaha! Pollution! Pollution for all!'

The Technocracy makes a kind of sense, and you can construct several decent arguments in its favour. When I first read their background, I wasn't entirely clear on why they're villains. They have flaws, certainly (the incredible love of science and disdain of anything supernatural or religious was a turn-off for me, though I'm sure some people sympathise with that point of view), but their overall agenda, i.e. enforce Consensus and protect the mundanes from supernatural threats, isn't an evil one. You can imagine a rational person choosing to serve it, which isn't something you can say for all villainous organisations. After all, protecting humanity from the myriad supernatural threats in the World of Darkness is quite admirable, and there are good reasons why Consensus must be kept in place. One could probably run a good campaign about a group of player Technocracy agents hunting down Reality Deviants.

I would suggest having a look at Demon, Irandura, as the background material at least is rather interesting to read.

That I will, thanks. More blatant Paradise Lost imagery, now where have I seen that before...

[4084595657]

Well i play the vampire RPG and its awesome! I think (not sure) we play the newer version. The dude who runs it is God

[Heretek]

The easiest way to tell if it's the new version is the tagline. Is it called Vampire: The Masquerade, or Vampire: The Requiem?

Does anyone know if there's a game set from the point of view of average Mortals? My brother made a vague reference to something of the sort, and I'd like the chance to hunt down a few supernatural freaks. Maybe it's my inner Inquisitor crying out to be released...

[Irandrura]

Hunter: The Reckoning is probably the closest. The concept was ordinary humans, gifted with supernatural powers (of course ) by vague guardian forces and sent to take back the night. As Rummy says, it didn't work out quite right.

Still, aren't there rules for humans in the other game systems? With a few creative house rules I don't see why you couldn't play a few human characters. It's about time they get their own back on those inexplicable hordes of supernatural creatures infesting the world that no one seems to be aware of. For, in the words of Red Mage, 'if you read enough White Wolf books, you get the feeling that 98% of the Earth's population is made up of Vampires, Werewolves, Wraiths, Mages, and Changelings. They're all waging this secret war for the benefit of one old guy named Henry living in a cramped apartment in Kent, Ohio.'

[Heretek]

Heh, thanks for that link, Irandrura. I'll see if I can't find this 'Hunter' sourcebook, and take a flip through it. If I don't like what I find, I may try and cobble together my own ruleset.

Now I have a whole new webcomic to chew through the archives of in a desperate attempt to catch up with the regular schedule. 

[The GrimSqueaker]

I rather like the The Sabbat in Vampire was far too vulnerable to simply being evil for the sake of evil - Chaotic Stupid, if you know the expression.

That's as much the fault of the players as the background material. Petty evil rather than actually having a goal behind the acts. Consider the difference between a calculated act of terror compared to merely shooting up some people at a mall. If you have a group of people who understand that they're not required to kill everything that walks every single night then you've got the makings of a decent story rather than Vampire war porn.

They have flaws, certainly (the incredible love of science and disdain of anything supernatural or religious was a turn-off for me, though I'm sure some people sympathise with that point of view), but their overall agenda, i.e. enforce Consensus and protect the mundanes from supernatural threats, isn't an evil one.

You were looking at it wrong. There was no distain for the religious or supernatural, such aspects merely had to be controlled and disected using matrialistic methods. The Void Engineers certainly had no issue at all with spooks, kooks, and flukes. Mapping the Net, as they put it, was all about discovery and once something has been discovered and analysed then it becomes part of science rather than being an uncontrolled unknown. It's still a spook, kook, or fluke but with a different name and a different role. Interation X were the ones with the problems with anything not solid.

[Irandrura]

The vague image is there, and that's enough.

It is very calculating, very rationalist, though. Still, upon further thought, weren't there those Lightkeeper people? The Technocratic rational deists? A compromise between the religious groups in The Sorcerer's Crusade and the more modern M:tA setting - they're somewhere in the New World Order now, aren't they?

Oh, forget it. You know how personal bias is. Guess who's a fan of the Celestial Chorus?

[The GrimSqueaker]

Still, upon further thought, weren't there those Lightkeeper people? The Technocratic rational deists? A compromise between the religious groups in The Sorcerer's Crusade and the more modern M:tA setting - they're somewhere in the New World Order now, aren't they?

Not ringing a bell but it has been a while since I've read the books. Started rereading them last night though as the interest has been sparked.

Oh, forget it. You know how personal bias is. Guess who's a fan of the Celestial Chorus?

One of my least favourite of the Traditions. Go figure.  I did have a Verbena Mage based on Finn from 2000AD though.

[Irandrura]

The way I see it, the Chorus is just one of many openly religious traditions. It makes sense - I imagine there would be quite a lot of people who, if immediately gifted with magical powers that operate according to their perception of reality, would conceive of those powers through a religious lens. The Chorus are the monotheists, but we also have generic Eastern mystics, a catch-all shamanic tradition, Neopagans... and all of them have some interesting philosophies.

Some of them are somewhat shallow, though. The Akashics and Dreamspeakers seem rather one-dimensional to me. The Chorus too suffers from the same problem at times, but on the whole I would say comes off better. The game's developers were likely more familiar with Christianity and the other Abrahamic faiths, and so handled them better. With less experience with other belief systems, the Asian and tribal Traditions ended up more stereotypical.

[The GrimSqueaker]

The Chorus I see as being an overly Abramaic version of "The Way" shown during the Andromeda TV series. The WW universe leans very heavily towards the Abramaic religions being "true" in essence as well as detail. Consider the notable individuals still wandering around the place. I would consider the defection rate of the Chorus to be somewhat high as those who join with their new found abilities also discover their disillusionment with how they're portrayed. Consider - what great miracle is water into wine, or walking on water when you have an understanding of certain Spheres?    You get to see that those of whom certain faiths are built upon may have been no-one more than yourself at an earlier time.

[Irandrura]

The Chorus I see as being an overly Abramaic version of "The Way" shown during the Andromeda TV series.

Syncretic pluralism is surprisingly common in speculative fiction, for some reasom. I've been doing some reading of BattleTech sourcebooks recently and when you said that, the first thing I thought of was the Way championed by Clan Cloud Cobra. Plus possibly the Unfinished Book - even Dune's whole Orange Catholic thing.

That said, I don't have a terrible problem with it in this context. The Chorus, as I recall, began as explicitly Christian and only later began to open up to other belief systems as aspects of God - and unsurprisingly it's still overwhelming Christian, and other religious interpretations of their supernatural powers are relegated to the other Traditions.

The WW universe leans very heavily towards the Abramaic religions being "true" in essence as well as detail. Consider the notable individuals still wandering around the place.

Caine, you mean? Plus Demon, as you pointed out to me, and it certainly does seem that much Abrahamic dogma is literally true.

I would consider the defection rate of the Chorus to be somewhat high as those who join with their new found abilities also discover their disillusionment with how they're portrayed. Consider - what great miracle is water into wine, or walking on water when you have an understanding of certain Spheres? You get to see that those of whom certain faiths are built upon may have been no-one more than yourself at an earlier time.

An interesting point. While religious doctrine can provide Mages with a framework within which to interpret their power, that power also simultaneously makes the miracles associated with religious leaders more plausible and less remarkable. A crisis of faith seems quite possible on the part of some Mages.

[The GrimSqueaker]

Caine, you mean? Plus Demon, as you pointed out to me, and it certainly does seem that much Abrahamic dogma is literally true.

Eve also turns up, as it were, at the "end" of Wraith. She was waiting for her son to die before moving on.

An interesting point. While religious doctrine can provide Mages with a framework within which to interpret their power, that power also simultaneously makes the miracles associated with religious leaders more plausible and less remarkable. A crisis of faith seems quite possible on the part of some Mages.

Thus begins many a great storyline. 

[Heretek]

Caine, you mean? Plus Demon, as you pointed out to me, and it certainly does seem that much Abrahamic dogma is literally true.

Eve also turns up, as it were, at the "end" of Wraith. She was waiting for her son to die before moving on.

And I believe Longinus was the first vampire, right?

[The GrimSqueaker]

And I believe Longinus was the first vampire, right?

No. Vampires were making bad poetry long before that time.

[Irandrura]

And I believe Longinus was the first vampire, right?

That's the new game - Vampire: The Requiem. The Lancea Sanctum covenant believes Longinus was the first, turned into a vampire as punishment for maiming Christ.

The Lancea Sanctum is rather interesting, actually, or at least I find it so (for as we've already established I have an irrational love of Judeo-Christian religious organisations). Think the Catholic Church, except they believe that vampires are a plague on mankind created by God, and thus to serve God they must be the monsters God intended them to be.

Needless to say, the other covenants don't agree. The Circle of the Crone (vampire pagans) certainly disagrees, and the Ordo Dracul (Dracula's covenant; wants to overcome vampiric weaknesses. The Lancea hates them for they think you shouldn't change a vampire's nature) may well, as it generally doesn't get on with the Lancea Sanctum. I doubt the Carthians (young reformers and political idealists) or the Invictus (nobles and aristocrats) care much, though, as they don't really bother with substantive religious belief. I understand a fair number of Invictus support the Lancea, though.

Anyway, the Lancea Sanctum believes Longinus was the first. Maybe they're wrong, maybe they're right. But in Vampire: The Masquerade, the first vampire was Caine - yes, that Caine, Genesis Chapter 4 with an 'e' stuck on the end - and Longinus never comes up to my knowledge.

[The GrimSqueaker]

Whoops, I do apologise. I'm still locked into the previous edition rather then the current. Mea Culpa.

Here's a link to some info - Yes, a Wiki!

[4084595657]

So you guys are experienced in WoD? i have only played a few times and i love the informality about it also the fact that its a game for alot of people so i can really show of my sense of humour 

[The Voivod]

Me and my group never saw the need to make the step to the new games.
With a rather big library of WoD books and enough rpg experience to costumize the rules to any kind of campaign we have neough material to rest us as long as we live.
I'm pretty sure WW made a decent new world. I'm just curious what the big changes in the rules are.

[The GrimSqueaker]

The rules haven't changed as much as the background. Vampires, Werewolves, and Mages are now all drastically different as to how they came about. For example with the Fae (IIRC), rather than being a Fae you're now one of the children that had been abducted in the past and taken to Arcadia. Now you're free and kind of pissed about the whole thing. With Werewolves, rather than being creatures of "balance" they're not more Ghostbusters is trying to halt incursions into this reality.

It's been quite a while since I've read any of the new material, recently only just started getting back to grips with the old, and so my summary above may be rather flawed. 

[BunniRabbi]

If you're looking for normal humans, the core WoD book in the new system is all you need.

Mechanically, the new system requires fewer dice rolls and revised the logic behind a lot of stats. 

Appearence was taken out, which I like because it was always too subjective.  Composure was added, which is good because every other book tried to create something like it.