40K Online

Main => Beginners and Newbies => Topic started by: gazz on October 13, 2002, 09:00:15 AM

Title: !DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW TO BEAT A IPM GUARD BASILISK!?
Post by: gazz on October 13, 2002, 09:00:15 AM
 ???DOES ANYONE ANSWERING THIS KNOW HOW TO BEAT A IPM BASILISK? IF YOU DO PLEASE ANSWER!
Title: Re:!DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW TO BEAT A IPM GUARD BASILISK!?
Post by: liruisheng on October 13, 2002, 09:13:47 AM
bwahaha! there is no defense!
*mimics basilisks batterys*
Boom! Boom! Whoooosh BANG! argh argh! dont kill us we surrender!

seriously though,
basilisks are always at the back, so best way is to deepstrike something to explode them. you gotta be able to do it in one turn though. cos at least my guard army isnt very far forward. so i just go "about face! fire!" and all the deep strikers go bang. or you could ignore them. heh heh. "what cannon? oh this cannon. it does nothing. dont worry. its like a griffon only it can fire 20 foot as ordnance and is as strong as a lascannon"
Title: Re:!DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW TO BEAT A IPM GUARD BASILISK!?
Post by: Maureth the Ranger on October 13, 2002, 02:45:42 PM
He he he...stop a basilisk. I have 3 in my Imperial Guard Army. The only way someone ever stoped my Basilisk was by deepstriking a special character he had into them. After a turn he realized Commisar Yarrik was assaulting him and he ran away (volunteer fallback) a special rule we made up.
Title: Re:!DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW TO BEAT A IPM GUARD BASILISK!?
Post by: Val'Jean on October 13, 2002, 02:52:52 PM
3 basilisks in an army? hmmm ....

Try putting fire dragons in a falcon and moving 24" a turn towards the offending tank. Even if it gets destroyed/stunned etc it's still going to be distracting the enemy from whatever else you have

(lets face it, anyone's gonna be worried if a tank is speeding towards your tank with some specialist anti-tank squad on board - and then your opponent will start making mistakes (hopefully)
Title: Re:!DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW TO BEAT A IPM GUARD BASILISK!?
Post by: Maureth the Ranger on October 13, 2002, 03:04:59 PM
After the fire dragons dissembark right in front of the basilisks they have to get through 5 lines of 20 Guardsmen in defensive Picket lines. 2 seconds after they touch the ground....Guardsmen FIRE!!!! Most likely 80 Rapid Fire shots reach the enemy....ha ha ha
Title: Re:!DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW TO BEAT A IPM GUARD BASILISK!?
Post by: Harlequin Solitaire on October 13, 2002, 04:26:40 PM
Mwahahahaha! Puny imperial lapdogs! I'll just Deep-Strike my OBLITERATORS behind your weakling cannon and show it my Meltaguns and Lascannons! Blood for the Blood God!
Title: Re:!DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW TO BEAT A IPM GUARD BASILISK!?
Post by: Val'Jean on October 13, 2002, 04:36:58 PM
After the fire dragons dissembark right in front of the basilisks they have to get through 5 lines of 20 Guardsmen in defensive Picket lines. 2 seconds after they touch the ground....Guardsmen FIRE!!!! Most likely 80 Rapid Fire shots reach the enemy....ha ha ha

....... 5 lines of 20 guardsmen in Picket lines?!? What scale battle are we talking about here? For that amount of points I could probably take 2 more waveserpents filled with scorpians/banshees to deal with the guardsmen.  We'd get to fire the Dragons first as well you know...

And in any case, if the Fire Dragons disembark in front of the Basilisk, how are you going to fit 100 guardsmen in between them and the tank?

Don't be so stupid in future please
Title: Re:!DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW TO BEAT A IPM GUARD BASILISK!?
Post by: Culeagh on October 13, 2002, 05:12:26 PM
Keep in mind that 100 guardsmen with lasguns only costs 500 points. It doesn't matter that they couldn't fit between the Basilisk and your AT squad, they have 24" range. You'll be looking at enough small arms fire to obliterate your dragons just as soon as they kill the transport with heavy weapons. Scorpions would be better (IMO) haywire grenades blow the crap out of tanks with less risk to the AT squad.

If you can't beat the basilisk just get within 36" of them. They can't indirect fire at that range and you can do the CTM trick with a vyper or falcon and a brightlance or pulse laser or whatever. Basilisks don't have very good armor. Waahm no more basilisk. If they have more than one, then you counter with multiple tank destroyer units.
 
Title: Re:!DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW TO BEAT A IPM GUARD BASILISK!?
Post by: Val'Jean on October 13, 2002, 05:25:20 PM
I did also say the squad would have distraction value...

It would also be petty to point out that  500 pts could buy me 2 wave serpents with 2 fully kitted out squads of aspect warriors, but by saying that I just have so ignore it ...

I don't like antagonising people (this post isn't meant as anything but justification by the way) but what he said was annoying considering all the other possibilities there can be to defend/attack a tank.

I could just as easily start talking about 6 wave serpents full of aspect warriors (although I appreciate that's more points than 100 guardsmen) or about 3 wraithlords with brightlances.

A major factor of the game is that there are near-infinite possibilities of dealing with any type of enemy unit, and in playing the game what you are doing is exploring these possibilities. This then becomes the basis of tactics (method A works better than method B, therefore I will use method A to achieve X)

At least I'm trying to offer some form of advice to the origional question, constructive critisism (e.g. scorpians with haywire grenades would be better) is welcomed but just inventing a scenario to put what i said down is, as I said origionally, stupid.
Title: Re:!DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW TO BEAT A IPM GUARD BASILISK!?
Post by: Maureth the Ranger on October 13, 2002, 07:35:46 PM
Quote
Quote

....... 5 lines of 20 guardsmen in Picket lines?!? What scale battle are we talking about here? For that amount of points I could probably take 2 more waveserpents filled with scorpians/banshees to deal with the guardsmen.  We'd get to fire the Dragons first as well you know...

And in any case, if the Fire Dragons disembark in front of the Basilisk, how are you going to fit 100 guardsmen in between them and the tank?

Don't be so stupid in future please

Hey here's an idea, Hey Spiritseer Besly, why dont you stop being so stupid in the future....now there's an idea! Thanks Culeagh for clarifying that to Spiritseer Besly. And now that i think about it scorpions wold tear through the lines, and then destroy the basilisks. The problem is that min. of 36" is only for indirect fire, not the regular setting
Title: Re:!DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW TO BEAT A IPM GUARD BASILISK!?
Post by: Silent_runner on October 14, 2002, 10:41:01 AM
Besly - you just keep right on going.

Maureth - Grow up child.

As an actual suggestion.....

I'm not sure how well this would work, the only Basilisk that I've come up against was one looted by Orks! However - I managed to get rid of it by getting to a piece of cover within 36" with my favourite Shining Spear kill team (3 models, one of them an Exarch with Evade and Skilfull rider) as fast as I could - I then hopped out 6" in the movement, fired (characters can't block line of sight to vehicles - so the hundreds of orks in the way made no difference) and then used the 6" move during the assault phase to get back under cover. It did take two turns before I got a penetrating hit , and even then it didn't blow up - but "weapon destroyed" was enough to be getting on with. If you manage to get the side armour then you only need a 2 for a glancing hit and 3+ penetrates - so a fork attack on it is quite useful - the unit approaching from the front doesn't really need to fire, just threaten so that, whichever way he turns, one of the units will get the side armour.

You could use a Falcon in the same way using the Crystal Targetting Matrix to move-fire-move to stay under cover - but Falcons are more difficult to hide that Shining Spears.

If you come up against three of them - good luck, 'cos you're going to need it! Just hope that, after he's spent all that time, effort and money on the figures, he keeps his troops close to them to try and protect them! that way you shouldn't have to get into close combat or (if the terrain's favourable) let him shoot you either.
Title: Re:!DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW TO BEAT A IPM GUARD BASILISK!?
Post by: Culeagh on October 14, 2002, 03:40:36 PM
Direct fire basilisks can't shoot what they can't see unless they get a lucky scatter. If you get within 36" they more than likely won't be able to hit your CTM vyper, CTM falcon, Shining Spear Exarch or whatever

Besly, I wasn't trying to refute your suggestion (that means I wasn't trying to crap on it). My intent was to point out the glaring weakness of rushing a lone wave serpent at IG. It is costly and pointless. They won't be distracted for more than the time it takes to fire half a dozen autocannons.

Dragons might work if you get lucky (they can get two of them in one go, scorps can't), scorpions might work if you get lucky. Both of them will probably get gunned down by infantry unless they can kill the Basilisk and then get into an hand-to-hand post haste. Scorpions are, by far, better at killing guardsmen in hand-to-hand, that is why I suggested them. If they live they will be more effective and they have a better chance of living because of the better armor.

Title: Re:!DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW TO BEAT A IPM GUARD BASILISK!?
Post by: Maureth the Ranger on October 14, 2002, 08:03:07 PM
Hey just an example, Silent_Runner, if three Shining Spears tried to charge alone into my basilisk battery, they would be Eldar Toast. First shining Spears aren't even that good (unless used correctly), and alone they down right suck! I dont know if you had plans for other things to back them up but alone as I said earlier they're dead. Just a little friendly piece of advice.
Title: Re:!DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW TO BEAT A IPM GUARD BASILISK!?
Post by: Silent_runner on October 14, 2002, 08:27:41 PM
OK Maureth, font of all wisdom, three Shining Spears, one of whom is an Exarch equiped with Skilfull Rider, Evade and a Bright Lance.

The group rush forward not, as you seem to think, straight at the Basilisk, but towards intervening cover. At the point that they are within range (36" for the Bright Lance, which just happens to bring them within the minimum range for indirect fire from the Basilisk) they pop out from behind cover, but no more than 6" - just enough to see the the target, fire and, during the assault phase, drop back into cover.

Assuming that they've managed to actually get within range - which, with guess range, scatter and 3+ save (3+ invulnerable for the Exarch) is quite likely. Let's say that I roll badly on the first attempt. I drop back into cover. Hmm - your go - Oh look - no target - what a shame.

Go two. Well let's see - 2+ to hit (5 in 6 odds is pretty good). Strength 8 against armour 12 means I need a 4 for a glance and 5+ to penetrate. If I manage to get to the side armour, then I need a 2 to glance and 2+ to penetrate.

Who said anything about charging - I play Eldar - which means I need a plan, not just charge blindly forward.

In future come out with a reasoned argument - not "Nah Wah - I'll beat you - bang bang you're dead" comments - it just makes you look about 12.

Oh - and don't forget, I've detailed the Shining Spears as "Tank Busters" - the rest of my force needs to be dealt with - and if you want to concentrate all of it's fire on one small unit (one of the ones with a good chance of surviving) - that's OK too - that frees the rest up!
Title: Re:!DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW TO BEAT A IPM GUARD BASILISK!?
Post by: Maureth the Ranger on October 14, 2002, 08:58:13 PM
Ok, one, i am not the all knowful. Neither are you though but you do have, lets see you're 41 and playing warhammerminus 14 and oops, you have a good 27 years on me. OK number two, basilisks have AP  3 so ur regular shining spears wouldnt get an armour save although ur exarch would. Third I believe (not sure) that ur SP are toughness 4 and thus wouldnt get an armour save. Fourth please stop with the god damn sinical remarks! I was just trying to give the guy my answer!!!!
Title: Re:!DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW TO BEAT A IPM GUARD BASILISK!?
Post by: spacepiper on October 14, 2002, 10:05:16 PM
Step 1: Buy 4x Wolf Scouts (1 w/ Meltagun)
Step 2: Convert a Grey Hunter in a Wolf Guard Leader, with Chainfist and Bolter-Melta
Step 3: Put behind enemy lines
Step 4: Enjoy.
Title: Re:!DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW TO BEAT A IPM GUARD BASILISK!?
Post by: Silent_runner on October 15, 2002, 05:01:46 AM
Eldar Tactics.

The following comments are made to show one method of working out how to take a tough unit out.

When it comes down to it, it works like this (trying to cut through all the various comments!).

The Basilisk can hit you anywhere on the board even if you’re behind cover and, as Maureth rightly points out AP3 would knock out the saves of all but invulnerable ones (apart from things like Terminators obviously) and ignoring his comment about toughness which is null – how can you reduce the advantages and what weaknesses are there to be exploited and how?

First we need to work out how to survive….

1)   Speed. The Basilisk is basically immobile. Don’t hang around. To fight immobile shooters you either need to very hard indeed (which the Eldar aren’t) or to keep moving. Don’t stay at the same range as you were the turn before otherwise he’ll zero in. Likewise don’t move directly towards or away from it, as this will allow him to easily add/subtract your movement to/from the previous guess. Diagonal moves are best to increase your chances against guess weapons ("You zig, I'll zag").

2)   Saving throws. With the Shining Spear example, given earlier, I suggested giving the Exarch an invulnerable save – this is a must in this case. For the non-Exarchs the only save they’re going to get is cover saves – so keep jumping from cover to cover if you can.

3)   Scatter. With a small unit it is better to keep them in a tight formation. Large groups should be spread out as much as possible. The reason for this is that with a small group (such as three Shining Spears) any casualties would cause morale checks and, due to scatter, a small tight formation stands the best chance of being missed all together ("a small tight formation stands the best chance of being missed" - Police Squad). Conversely, a large unit is likely to get hit anyway; so spreading them out reduces the number that are under the template. Additionally, don’t clump your units together unless you really have to. There’s nothing more inviting to him than three units that will all fit under the one template.

Edit:-

Addition to the above! Small units should be grouped closely together only if you expect that your opponent will be using the large template against you! When the smaller one is used, it is still better to spread the unit out. The reason for this is, again, scatter - or rather the lack of it. When the small template comes into play all the opponent does is roll to hit and then places the template - a small unit could get seriously damaged this way.

Secondly identify its weaknesses

1)   Guess/Scatter. As detailed above – inaccuracy. No matter how good his guessing is (and I’ve been up against some pretty accurate distance estimators myself) the template has a damn good chance of scattering.

2)   Minimum Range. He can’t shoot indirectly under 36” range, so close the range down as fast as you can and kill it. Assuming a standard war gaming table size of 6’ by 4’, even assuming that you are fighting corner to corner, this gives a maximum range of 7’ 2.5”. Assuming that you’re using 18” deployment zones, then you can knock off about 2’. Of the rest of the distance, 18” can be covered in the first move leaving you just outside his minimum range – survive one barrage and that’s it. Waveserpents, Falcons and Fire Prisms (all easily able to take him out) would be able to get within the minimum range in one move.

If you are fighting across the table then, once you’ve deployed, you’ll be within his minimum range anyway.

3)   Direct Fire. Once within his minimum range he can only hit what he can see – so don’t let him see you. This is difficult if he has multiple Basilisks but, even then, is not necessarily impossible. What Maureth chooses to ignore (possibly because the opponents that he has been up against charge straight at him) is that even if he needed a 1+ to hit with a strength 99 AP1 attack, if he can’t see you, you’re safe. So don’t let him.

Thirdly identify your strengths.

1)   Manoeuvrability. All of the Eldar vehicles, when properly equipped, can move/fire/move, so use this to make sure that, if you fail to knock out the Basilisk, you’ll still be in cover when it comes to his turn.

Well, that’s all I have to say regarding killing them with Eldar – I’m not actually sure that an Eldar army would be the best choice, but it’s not bad.

Finally -"knowful" is not a word, it's "Cynical" not "Sinical" and giving the guy an answer that amounts to "don't bother, if you try it on me I'll just blow you away" is not helpful.
Title: Re:!DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW TO BEAT A IPM GUARD BASILISK!?
Post by: Val'Jean on October 15, 2002, 12:20:40 PM
Quote
Quote

Hey here's an idea, Hey Spiritseer Besly, why dont you stop being so stupid in the future....now there's an idea! Thanks Culeagh for clarifying that to Spiritseer Besly. And now that i think about it scorpions wold tear through the lines, and then destroy the basilisks. The problem is that min. of 36" is only for indirect fire, not the regular setting

My what an argument has broken out in my absence!

First off - Maureth:

1. Grow up - your "Hey here's an idea, *YOU* stop being stupid" post is one of the most immature I've ever seen on this site". (learn to spell as well please, its all very well trying to use 'clever' words like cynical but it doesn't look so good if you don't spell them right)
2. Listen to Silent_Runner. He obviously knows what he's talking about and has some good tactical advice for whoever first started this post.

Culeagh:

It was a suggestion, I've never played Basilisks before, but as I said, constructive critisism is fine - i bow to your logic and reasoning with the scorpians - but I did know what refute meant without needing to be told....

EDIT: Having read over the post I have decided it looks too much like a "I'm gonna keep arguing until I win" post, however it needed to be said. Maureth, if you just stop writing "I'm gonna kill u all BANG BANG"-style posts, I won't flame them. I don't really want to post-to-insult/argue, it's a lot more fun discussing ideas and tactics here.
Title: Re:!DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW TO BEAT A IPM GUARD BASILISK!?
Post by: Culeagh on October 15, 2002, 05:35:38 PM
Besly, Sorry. I wanted to make sure everyone knew what the word meant.

Wraithguard wouldn't be a bad unit to give it a try with.

A couple of wraithlords to draw the fire of the basilisks and shoot missile launchers (extra range helps, plasma missiles kill IG infantry dead). A couple of serpents with star engines full of fortuned wraithguard (by the farseers before the tanks are loaded) could boost max range into the guard lines tank shocking infantry units without AT weapon (so they can't blast the serpents). Once your in, the serpents will probably get popped by heavy weapons but the wraithguard are fortuned so they probably won't get killed in the crash. Then they shoot the basilisks that are in range of the wraithcannons and in the assault phase charge a heavy weapons squad, who'll have a hard time hurting them. They work their way over to another basilisk and try to kill it. The good thing (in this case) about wraithguard in CC is that they take a long time to kill stuff so they probably won't end up in front of the guns for a turn or two and will be tying up all kinds of infantry (who can barely hurt them).

Meanwhile the rest of the army (and Silent Runners spears) are taking pot shots from cover as the bulk of the force advances into shurikat range...

Title: Re:!DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW TO BEAT A IPM GUARD BASILISK!?
Post by: anakha on October 15, 2002, 08:01:18 PM
My my, aren't some of us getting up on the wrong side of the bed!
As a devoted gamer, i would like to read the suggestions of how to deal with certain sticky situations, not the bickering of little kids fighting about the best tactics in the style of "I'm better, I'm right, you're wrong, you're stupid etc", especially you Maureth.
If you don't agree with something you don't just spit the dummy and call them stupid. You be mature and either shut your mouth (in context) or offer another, better suggestion. Case in point.
Title: Re:!DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW TO BEAT A IPM GUARD BASILISK!?
Post by: Silent_runner on October 16, 2002, 09:56:31 AM
Then they shoot the basilisks that are in range of the wraithcannons and in the assault phase charge a heavy weapons squad


Just realised about this (sorry) the new rules about shooting and assault - you can only assault the unit that you shot at (apparently). I assume this would hold true for the Basilisk as well. Mind you, if the Wraithguard are fortuned, and if the Waveserpent had twin Brightlances on it - you could.... Charge for the side armour and disgorge the wraithguard, then fire the Brightlances at the side armour of the Basilisk, 4+ to hit with re-roll gives a 3 in 4 chance to hit with a 5 in 6 chance of affecting it - 2 in 3 chance of penetration (fnar fnar, yuk yuk) - a 62.5% chance of both hitting and rolling on one of the vehicle damage tables and 50% chance of both hitting and rolling on the penetration table. Then, assuming that you've at least stopped it shooting, the Wraithguard can open up on the troops and charge in (to prevent them getting shot during the opponent's go).

The problem with the above is that wraithcannon only have a range on 12" which (assuming that the opposition has "5 lines of 20 guardsmen" - as, apparently, Maureth has his units organised) will make things a little hot for the wraithguard! That was the reason that I was suggesting the Shining Spears - they can "snipe" from just inside 36" (also - with a 2+ to hit, they have a 5 in 6 chance, better than the waveserpent's twinned bright lances - this works out as just under 69.5% chance of both hitting and rolling on a damage table and just over 55.5% chance of both hitting and rolling on the penetration table) and, once they've managed to knock out the Basilisk(s), the IG guardsmen will be protecting one or more smoking craters(s!) 36" away from doing any harm. Assuming that the sides are about 2000 points, you will have managed to knock out almost half the points in his army (the basilisks have gone, or can't shoot any more, and the guards protecting them are out of the main area - just keep an eye on any lascannons/Missile Launchers that they've got!).

This should allow the rest of the Eldar army to attack the remaining IG forces at a 2 to 1 point advantage.

Have I missed anything on this? Ideas for tightening up the plan would be good - 'cos it could be adapted for units other than Basilisks!

Of course this all goes to pot if what happened to me the other night happens to you - two Shining Spear "tank buster" units - first two turns - I roll a 1 for each of them. turn three, one of the Exarchs is blown away and then the other one shoots - another 1! The chances are slim of this sort of thing happening (1 in 65 - or 0.013% - 1 in 7776!) but the best laid plans can be scuppered by outrageous dice rolls (your's or your opponents). My normal opponent makes his 5+ invulnerable save 9 out of 10 times and has his deep strikers go "double one" about one in three times - go figure!!
Title: Re:!DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW TO BEAT A IPM GUARD BASILISK!?
Post by: pulven on October 17, 2002, 06:47:51 AM
Or maybe a Fireprism or two, ctm that 60" str 9 / 2 could work wonders...
Title: Re:!DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW TO BEAT A IPM GUARD BASILISK!?
Post by: Silent_runner on October 17, 2002, 07:13:31 AM
True, but you'd have to make sure that the Farseer did his stuff on it otherwise you'd only have a 50:50 chance of hitting. (I REALLY get fed up with that BS of 3!).

Again - that's why I keep using the Shining Spears - with a BS of 5 they only need a 2+ to hit.

It's strange really - Shining Spears are advertised as close combat types, which they are patently crap at (except possibly on the turn that they initially assault) - so everybody says how useless they are. But for whizzing round the battlefield knocking out hardpoints from a distance they're great - but nobody seems to use them for that. My normal opponent - an SM power player - reckons that the two things that worry him - my Wraithlords and my Shining Spears, the former because only his termies can cope with them in close combat (and even then they tend to get a mauling) and the latter because, by turn two, his Crusader, Dreadnaught and Whirlwind are usually unable to move/have no weapons left/are large smoking hulks!
Title: Re:!DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW TO BEAT A IPM GUARD BASILISK!?
Post by: Rasmus on October 17, 2002, 07:34:35 AM
After consulting the old battles I have played and finding that I have been in the very situation you describe I will tell you how I did it the last time.

Warp Spiders - 5 of them, jumping down the field, wreaking havoc whereever they go. With a lot of other dangerous things around the enemy does not use his awesome firepower on them, and they manage to get behind the basilisk.
The first volley of fire stuns the crew, making it impossible for it to move away, turn to face with front armor, or fire.
The next volley of fire, now at rapid fire, burns the tank to a crisp after immobilising it and destroying all its weapons.

That's how I did it. It is not a cover-for-all-tactic, but it worked that day.
Title: Re:!DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW TO BEAT A IPM GUARD BASILISK!?
Post by: SledgeHammer on October 17, 2002, 07:39:39 AM
Get  35" near it, and it can't shoot u.
Title: Re:!DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW TO BEAT A IPM GUARD BASILISK!?
Post by: Silent_runner on October 17, 2002, 09:21:45 AM
Get  35" near it, and it can't shoot u.

Um, sorry - yes it can - in fact it's more accurate! Within 36" it can't use indirect fire (Guess then scatter) within 36" it can only use direct fire - this is the reason that I advocate the Shining Spears/Falcon move/shoot/move tactic, so that you're in cover when it's his turn to shoot.
Title: Re:!DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW TO BEAT A IPM GUARD BASILISK!?
Post by: Val'Jean on October 17, 2002, 11:31:51 AM
(hence my edit anakha)
but enough of that old argument - seeing as both warp spiders and fire prisms have come up as tactics on this post - can someone give me a run down on their effectiveness and tactics (i know their stats and rules) because they're the only things I don't have in my army at the moment so I don't have much experience of them.

My normal anti-tank squads are actually wraithguard, as Culeagh said, they have are tough and have wraithcannon-of-doom. (tm)
If the serpent gets destroyed before they are near the tanks they end up as a waste of point but that's life ...
Title: Re:!DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW TO BEAT A IPM GUARD BASILISK!?
Post by: Rasmus on October 17, 2002, 11:47:05 AM
As for the Fireprism there is an entire thread about it
http://www.eldaronline.com/community/index.php?board=3;action=display;threadid=18695 (http://www.eldaronline.com/community/index.php?board=3;action=display;threadid=18695) here.

As for the Spiders. Well, they are expensive(money and points) have crappy range and fight well in hth. On the other hand the Spiders can Deepstrike (one of two units in the entire Host, the other being the Hawks of course) and move really fast (12" + 2D6" if you want to) at the risk of dsappearing in the warp... They also have 3+ save, and the exarch can actually be tooled up to do some serious damage. Much like the Shining Spears they are a matter of how you put them to use. They can bait and avoid even large swarms of nids for a few turns, even though the chances of them taking anything like that out is slim indeed. However, isolate something and gun for it, 5 spiders with exarch in tow, and you can scare people in panicing and redirecting fire to the resilient spiders as your guardians move down the opposite flank.
They can stand prolonged fights in cc, at least as long as there are no powerweapons involved (tied up twice the number of Harlequins for three turns... Then they won!)
So, now you have a clue, at least. Try them out, use proxies or something, and see which fits you the best.
Title: Re:!DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW TO BEAT A IPM GUARD BASILISK!?
Post by: Val'Jean on October 17, 2002, 12:04:14 PM
Thanks, the spiders sound interesting to use even if they get munched!

Once my production is finished I'll be able to get another job so I can buy some.

I'll have a look on e-bay or somewhere to see if there are any I can get hold of cheaply
Title: Re:!DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW TO BEAT A IPM GUARD BASILISK!?
Post by: Djinn_ on October 17, 2002, 02:06:36 PM
you're welcome to buy my spiders, or trade for them or something, they're well painted, but I used them and hated them.

AS for the basilisk, my friend fields a 1500 point army with 3 leamon Russ and a basilisk, we play on a 6 by 6 tabletop and my army is not designed for speed. (lords, gaurd, scorpians, avatar, fire prism, wave serpent full of fire dragons, and a farseer). My only chance to devestate his tanks is to get the wave serpent in close, probability is if it unloads it can take out 2-3 tanks when positioned right (the one time this worked there was way to much cover and I got to shoot at this 10 armor backside with the linked star cannon, 1 with guns, and ones with meltabombs) is there and eldar way to beat that many tanks with out relaying on cover (which sucks due to indirect fire).
Title: Re:!DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW TO BEAT A IPM GUARD BASILISK!?
Post by: Silent_runner on October 18, 2002, 04:02:53 AM
Nope!

We can use basic logic here:-

Either you will take the hits or avoid them.

To you choose to take the hits, and still want to be alive, you have to be tough - the Eldar aren't - leave this tactic to Marines.

To avoid the hits means being somewhere that he can't hit you or he can't reach. For direct fire you can use cover, but hiding doesn't work for the indirect fire.

You can't get outside his range (the table's not big enough).

So we are left with the only choices open to us - for indirect fire you have to get within minimum range which turns it into direct fire - and (at the distance you're at) you now have to keep your head down.

At the start of this post I said "Nope!" in answer to Djinn's question "is there and eldar way to beat that many tanks with out relaying on cover (which sucks due to indirect fire)" I now retract this!

Yes there is an Eldar way - speed. Using cover doesn't "suck because of the indirect fire" - it gives you a cover save. So use the terain to protect yourself and close him down quickly.

Look at it this way - you use a 6' square table. If he puts his Basilisks just in from the edge he will be about 6" in. If you deploy 12" in then the gap between you is 54". Your first move would close this distance down to 36". With Falcons, Prisms and Waveserpents (even without Star Engines) this would be down to 30". So, if he goes first, you have to survive 1 barrage before you're inside his range. If you go first, then you don't have to put up with any of it.

The problem is that the Eldar are not meant to march (I have found this out be painful trial and error), so now I have Waveserpents, a Falcon, a Fire Prism as well as Shining Spears. It's not just speed of approach either, with the Shining Spear's ability to move 6" during the assault and Crystal Targeting Matrix for the other vehicles, you can shoot and hide every time.

I agree about the Warp Spiders - I can't get them to work either.
Title: Re:!DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW TO BEAT A IPM GUARD BASILISK!?
Post by: SledgeHammer on October 18, 2002, 06:58:59 AM
The only thing u have to do is to get  about 35" near it. Then it can't shoot u.

One thing i love is to deepstrike with immortals, and on my first turn, blow it up.
Title: Re:!DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW TO BEAT A IPM GUARD BASILISK!?
Post by: Val'Jean on October 18, 2002, 11:20:07 AM
Where do you live and how much would you want for them Djinn?
Title: Re:!DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW TO BEAT A IPM GUARD BASILISK!?
Post by: lastat on October 19, 2002, 11:37:44 AM
In my neck of the woods imp guard armies are numerous, and being a dark eldar player
this pure enjoyment. every ipm guard I have faced has at least two BASILISK. what I
have done is give them something to shoot at like a talos or a ravager or both which is
determined to rip it apart at least let them think that is your game plan. they will be so
caught up with destroying the talos or what have you it would give me time to deep strike
my Scourges 10 strong armed with splinter rifles and four splinter cannon ( that is 16 shots
at strength 4 your bound to roll a couple of 6’s) either behind or to either side of the
basilisk. destroy it and be able to get away before any retribution being able to move 12”. ;D
Title: Re:!DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW TO BEAT A IPM GUARD BASILISK!?
Post by: Culeagh on October 21, 2002, 02:17:26 PM
Here's a fun one.

Get a farseer with eldritch storm to hit the target tank. It spins around in a random direction and you might get the rear armor with your whole armies shooting. Major drawback is the short range and high cost of eldritch storm.

Even if you don't kill it, it has to move in it's turn to put it's heavy front armor in the right direction and then it can't shoot ordnance. (Basilisks don't have 360 degree fire arcs.)