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Author Topic: [HM/NM] Vanilla First List  (Read 631 times)

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Offline psyscowasp

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[HM/NM] Vanilla First List
« on: September 21, 2009, 07:52:58 PM »
Some background/explanation. This is my first army list, so I don't yet have a good feel for what opponents I may be facing or what sort of tactics I personally like to employ. My goal with this is to make use of the majority of my current models, while purchasing to fill some holes and get me some more flexibility. I currently have 25 tactical marines, 5 scouts w/o snipers, 5 assault marines, and a rhino. About the only thing I feel really set on is my command squad, running a chaplain with jetpack and power fist with 10 assault marines, the sergeant running lightning claws. I see a lot of synergy there, and the potential to bounce around and wreak havoc.

HQ
Chaplain with power fist, jump pack - 130

Troop
Tac Squad with 10 marines, flamer, ML - 170

Scout Squad with 9 scouts, 3 sniper, ML, camo cloaks, Sgt Telion - 194

Elite
Term squad with 10 Terminators

Fast Attack
Assault squad with 10 marines, plasma pistol x2, lightning claws x2 on sgt - 255

Heavy Support
Devastator squad with 10 marines, 2x ML, 2x Lascannon, sgt w/ combi flamer - 280

Total - 1449

This list leaves me 50 points to play with, tossing in some grenades, homing beacons, maybe a rhino. I also am not sold on Sgt Tellion, so that could free up another 50 points. With that 100 I could lose some weaponry for a dreadnought, or toss in a vanilla tactical squad. I feel like I'm losing a lot of punch by having no mechanized units currently.

Tactically, I can deploy and combat squad the scouts deep, and teleport in Terms if deep strike is available. My chaplain will be running amok with my assault troops, bouncing around in a support role to hold off close combat units.  I think there is some flexibility here, but a real weakness against heavily armored foes. I have 4 MLs and a couple lascannons floating around, but I don't feel like that's enough. My initial though on my extra points is a rhino with a hunter killer to give me some punch against heavy armor enemies, or dropping Tellion for a razorback with lascannons and a hunter killer.

Any and all feedback is appreciated. As I stated, a lot of this isn't purchased yet, so I'm open to swapping things around. I'm also curious about upgrading my teminators. The assault cannon and cyclone missiles seem very expensive. I'm looking forward to feedback on the list, thoughts on the abilities I'll have, as well as any tactics that might work with this list. Thanks in advance.

 

Offline g3nius_monkey

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Re: [HM/NM] Vanilla First List
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2009, 09:43:26 PM »
First off, double check your wargear options on your Chappy.

Put a power weapon in your Tactical Squad. Preferably a power fist, but a sword could work too. I would also suggest getting a rhino for it. The way its geared out right now it really can't stand on its own (it just won't do much), and you can easily free up points for it by...

1) Getting rid of the combi-flamer in the dev squad. Its not necessary.
2) Dropping the Plasma Pistols in the Assault Squad. They're good, but probably overkill for how that squads equipped.
3) Dropping a Termie or two. You're not using heavy weapons, so there's no real need to max out the squad. Oh yeah. Get heavy weapons for your termies.

Also a few other suggestions.

-You really don't want to risk deep striking THAT large of a termie group, especially without a teleport homer. If you want to stick with it, lose telion and field a regular Sergeant with one, then infiltrate him up to the enemy line.

-Make sure when you play your Dev Squad that you combat squad them, 2x MLs in one group and 2x LCs in the other. That way you can stretch your shots; if the LCs knock out what you were shooting at, the rockets can fire at another tank or infantry.
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Offline The Exile

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Re: [HM/NM] Vanilla First List
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2009, 10:10:33 PM »
Well, first off, there are a few things of note.

Chaplain looks good.  The Fist is effective for anti-tanks roles.  Don't try to take on any dreadnoughts or monstrous creatures with it though.  You'll get squished.

I can't see any wargear on the terminators.  Giveing them a heavy weapon is a must.  If you plan on teleporting them but dont have a beacon, you should not give them a heavy flamer as its hard to get them in an optimal spot.  If you are using a beacon a heavy flamer is a great choice as its cheap and probably the best anti infantry weapon in the game.  Otherwise I'd go for the assault cannon.  The Missle is ok but I'm old school so I don't like it.  You should also split the termies cause there is no reason not to.  Don't want to put all your eggs in on basket.

The Tactical squad is slow and will spend most of the game shooting....ineffic ient.  A Rhino would help, but with no tanks, I see the rhino dieing quickly.  You could drop pod them, but I don't like doing just one drop pod...it seems i dunno random i guess.  YOu could try it.  I imagine this squad will disappoint you alot either way.  Tac squads are great, but they need some support from buddy squads, which aren't in this list unfortunately. 

The assault squad looks ok, but its suffering the same syndrome as the tactical squads.  Its kindof out there with nothing much backing it up. 

The Devastator squad looks good. 

All in all, I would say your list lacks cohesion.  I think the root of the issue is the 10 terminators, which are prohibitively expensive.  I would hesitate in taking more than 5 terminators in any army that wasn't some kind of specialty deep striking assault army.  Considering its your first list though I would say its pretty decent you are on ther right track.  Playing a few games will help you understand how planning your list is half the battle.

EDIT:
First off, double check your wargear options on your Chappy.....

I thought the same thing at first, but his chaplain is legal.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2009, 10:12:03 PM by The Exile »

Offline psyscowasp

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Re: [HM/NM] Vanilla First List
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2009, 12:14:57 PM »
Thanks for all the feedback.

I see the points about the Devastators. I guess my initial thinking was that a flamer would just be so-so and the assault cannon would limit movement too much. I also didn't realize the heavy flamer was an assault weapon, so here's to learning something. I'm also baking in homing beacons to the scouts and the tac squad to deploy these guys via deep strike where ever I think the combat is going to get bloody.

I'm adding a rhino to the tac squad. I'm adding a hunter-killer for some heavy firepower if it's needed. I see deploying both my tac squad and assault squad deep. It was said that both of those squads needed backup. Would having both of them together be that backup?

I also noticed a lot of talk about combat squadding. That was my intention on the squads all along. Is that something that you need to specify when you create your list, or something you declare on deployment? What's the notation used for that, if any?

Dropping half the termies really opened up some points. Even adding beacons and the rhino, I've got just over 100 available. My first thought is a tricked out Predator, mostly because I want one, but also because that's more high STR weaponry on the table. I did have one question outfitting it; are the values for the sponsons for both, or per? It's unclear in the book. I'm currently operating on the idea that it's 60 for both (may take side sponsons with lascannons). With that in mind, here is a modified list...

HQ
Chaplain with power fist, jump pack - 130

Troop
Tac Squad (split) with 10 marines, flamer, ML, beacon, sgt w/ power weapon - 200
Rhino with hunter-killer - 45

Scout Squad with 9 scouts, 3 sniper, ML, camo cloaks, Sgt Telion, beacon - 229

Elite
Term squad with 5 Terminators, heavy flamer, chain fist - 210

Fast Attack
Assault squad with 10 marines, plasma pistol x2, lightning claws x2 on sgt - 250

Heavy Support
Devastator squad with 10 marines (split), 2x ML, 2x Lascannon - 270

Predator with 3x Lascannon - 165

Total - 1499


Offline Paraplegic

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Re: [HM/NM] Vanilla First List
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2009, 12:45:25 PM »
Combat squadding is something you do during deployment, not while making a list.

I'd lose the HKM on the rhino. HKM even en-mass are a poor poor investment.

Plasma pistols on assault marines are very meh imho. I'd rather have two flamers. Lightning claws on the sarge is nice but I'd rather have a Pfist.

Devs look fine but Annihilator (all lascannon preds) preds are terrible imho. It doesn't take much to stun and now your *premier* antitank vehicle is useless. I'd go with autocannon + lascannon sponsons or Lascannon turret with heavy bolter sponsons.

Offline g3nius_monkey

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Re: [HM/NM] Vanilla First List
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2009, 03:16:46 PM »
I can't agree with Paraplegic.

First off your Pred is NOT your "premier" antitank because you have more than enough options left on the board in case it gets blown up. And for its cost, its worth taking just to draw fire away from your other more expensive squads.

What I WILL say is that for the size game you're playing, you might very quickly run out of targets to shoot at. In an average 1500 point game you might run into maybe 3-4 enemy vehicles, the majority of which can be handled by your standard infantry. And once those are gone, you're forced to turn your tank on infantry, which lascannons aren't particularly effective against, especially when used on horde armies like nid, guard, or orks.

For this reason I would say take the TL LC turret and the heavy bolter sponsons. At least then you can pick which one you want depending on what you're shooting at.

Also bear in mind that Terminators are relentless, and assault cannons are very highly regarded as superb heavy weapons.
"Do not be afraid to lose. Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgement. Everybody starts new."

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Offline Paraplegic

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Re: [HM/NM] Vanilla First List
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2009, 03:45:08 PM »
I guess I should have used the /sarcasm off. I see alot of first lists where people stick in a predator annihilator and think man 3 lascannons, it's gonna tear stuff up! Only to have it either blown off the board or stunned and shaken into uselessness.

TL-LC + HB sponsons gets a thumbs up for me, though I prefer the dakka pred variety myself.

Agreed, if you're going to take a 10 man terminator squad, I'd get two heavy weapons. Assault cannons are great all rounder weapons but the new cyclones aren't too bad either. 4 frag/krak missiles what? :-O

Offline The Exile

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Re: [HM/NM] Vanilla First List
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2009, 10:27:35 PM »
Yea Predator annihilators are mediocre.  Vindicators are much more fun :)  And cheaper!  Actually I might try to squeeze in two predators with autocannons/heavy bolters for what youve got.  Those things are a steal. 

I agree about taking the plasma pistols off the assault squad.  They don't shoot/hit enough in a game to be worthwhile and they kill your own guys more often than they should it seems.  Flamers are much better because they can auto hit and get lots of dudes in one hit.  Plus they are cheaper.   ;D 

Offline augustmanifesto

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Re: [HM/NM] Vanilla First List
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2009, 12:04:45 PM »
having three sniper rifles in a scout squad is pretty useless, the odds for a successfull pinning roll with than number are very small. With snipe rifles it's best to go big or go home, so either all or none, I would say.
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