Topic: Dealing with the New Grey Knights

[Caustic]

I've been looking through the new codex, and the first thought that came to my mind after the euphoria of so much new equipment for the Imperium's servants was that stacked orders and lots of Lascannons would absolutely decimate most of the lists they can throw at us.

Consider the Vindicaire Assassin.  All it would take to eliminate him from a piece of cover is a Lascannon Squad or two under the effects of 'Fire on My Target', as his special rule means he is going to be relying on cover to keep him alive.

In the case of Mordrak and his Ghost Knights (which will likely appear in a ton of lists) 'Fire on My Target' plus a decent number of Lascannon shots should deal with the unit nicely, since even if he runs into cover allocating wounds to Mordrak for the adding of more Ghost Knights would be suicide as he either saves it and lives or just dies anad takes the squad with him.

Nemesis Dreadknights are so big they have giant 'shoot me' signs on them, and Lascannons are the only heavy weapon that can really do them harm thanks to the TEQ save.

In the case of the wound-allocation Paladin squads Lascannons would eat them up in a flurry of instant death, which is even better if they are in cover thanks to Fire on My Target.

In the case of my list, it looks like I'm going to be running 2 CCS w LCs and 3-4 LC HWSs if I know I'm against GK.

[Calamity]

I believe you are right Caustic.  I haven't read the book, but las (and plas) seems to be the way to go.  Plus, their 2k lists have about 25 men in them tops, so they actually do not seem that durable to me.

GKs won't give us any serious bother.

[Azgard]

1 executioner can easily kill a whole squad of paladins in a single round of shooting, and costs well under half thier points.
A demolisher can do the same.... even a demo charge can run a paladin squads whole day.
Or a simple tarpit guardsman squad with some power fists will get the job done.

I think the main threats will be the dreadknight with teleporter and the vindicare. But as long as you have a few resources to dedicate to such things all will be well. Just use your big guns to kill thier dreadknight / Land raider / storm raven. Ignore the terminators for the first turn or two (if they are even on the board) Shoot your las guns at the regular marines and saturate thier saves. Then when your big guns are availible again finish off the paladins / termies.. what have you.

And if all else fails.... I dont think grey knights have enough bullets to beat guardsmen.

[Caustic]

That all being said I think the biggest threat the Grey Knights have against Guard is the new Purifiers and Death Cult Henchmen.  Both these things are nasty especially when you are taking them as Troops, so much to the point where taking out their transports is the best option I can see.

I think in the future Grey Knights are going to have a good time versus other MEQ lists using their own brand of cheese, but ultimately will still encounter difficulty dealing with Guard Infantry or even mechanized lists.

[Wofen]

The way I see it, there is nothing in there list that a Demolisher cant kill in one shot (well except the dreadknight, but thats where my Lascannons will be faced). I am thinking that Demolishion Doc is going to be worth its weight in gold. Gray Knights DS next to squad, kill all but one man with shooting, and bamn, he kills 2/3rds of there squad. Well worth the point exchange.

Other then that, Plamsa and Lascannons will work vs them better then normal marines, so i'm not overly worried.

They guys with the spell that wounds everyone on a 4+, they will really put the hurt on Combined squads, as a 40 man squad will die in 2 turns to 5 gray knights.

Wofen

[Underhand]

Demo charges will definitely be worth taking.  Plasma guns are also an obvious choice.

They guys with the spell that wounds everyone on a 4+, they will really put the hurt on Combined squads, as a 40 man squad will die in 2 turns to 5 gray knights. 

Nah, it isn't that nasty.  They kill 20 with the first shot, then 10 with the next, then 5 etc.  Still nasty, but it's not a two turn killer, by itself.  It's also only available to Librarians - it's not available to every squad.

[Wofen]

Demo charges will definitely be worth taking.  Plasma guns are also an obvious choice.

They guys with the spell that wounds everyone on a 4+, they will really put the hurt on Combined squads, as a 40 man squad will die in 2 turns to 5 gray knights. 

Nah, it isn't that nasty.  They kill 20 with the first shot, then 10 with the next, then 5 etc.  Still nasty, but it's not a two turn killer, by itself.  It's also only available to Librarians - it's not available to every squad.

One of the squads has it as there spell, and its not just the spell, but also the 10 attacks per turn... after the spell is cast to help clean up. I wont be super bad, but it will be a hard counter to power blobs and the like.

The other unit that kinda scares me is the "May shoot any unit in range, regardless of LOS" unit. I dread the day I face an army of them on a terrian heavy board.

I also cant wait for the first time I play vs the Gray knights, and they land within 12" of my units, and then die to Plamsa vets rapid firing death, one squad at a time.

Wofen

[Underhand]

Ahh, my mistake - in that case, you must be talking about Purifiers with their cleansing flame spell.  Luckily armour saves can save against that. 

Still nasty, but a forty man blob squad with power weapons should still be able take out the 5 Purifiers.  A twenty man squad would be in deep amphetamine parrot though.  Either way, the Purifiers are probably getting their points back.

I'm not sure that we'll see all that many purifier squads though.  They are an elites choice, and there is a lot of compettion in that section of the GK codex with Paladins, Assassins and Venerable Dreads.

[Wofen]

Ahhh, but the trick with Gray knight is they have heros that let them take there elites as troops.

Now, the Purifiers Hero kinda sucks, so you might not see him alot, but you will have Paladins as troop choices all the time. You dont really need a Dread, as you have Dreadknights in the Heavy support, so that leaves Elites for Assissians and Purifiers.

At lest, thats the idea I got when I glanced at the rule book.

Wofen

[Underhand]

I'm not sure that dreadknights will replace venerable dreads.

In a Grey Knights list, they would seem to have different roles.  I don't think they compete with each other.

A Venerable Dreadnought in a GK army armed with a twinlinked Autocannon and Assault cannon with Psybolt ammunition is a very respectable ranged anti vehicle choice, particularly in an otherwise CC oriented army like GKs.  I think we will see a lot of them.

Dreadknights by comparison, would appear to be more generalist and moe oriented to an anti infantry role.  They actually compete more with purifers than they do with venerable dreads.

[Greyshades]

THough I don't have a ton of experience with the new GK, I tend the think the GK will struggle against IG, and alot of horde lists, but IG the most simply because while we have numbers, we also have some hard hitting shooting options, and GK, while they are killy and tough, are relatively few in number.

That said I think the new GK will shine against most MEQ type armies

[Venator101]

They actually compete more with purifers than they do with venerable dreads.

As a GK player, just thought I'd clear this up, Purifiers are Elites but have a hero (who's actually pretty well costed for what he is) that makes them a Troops choice. While Dreadknights are Heavy Support. Also, Venerable Dreadnoughts are an Elites choice too, while regular ones are HS as well.

What I think you'll see competition with, is Dreadknights and Land Raiders in Terminator heavy lists. As they can't be taken as Dedicated Transports.

Thanks

[Underhand]

The competition between Deadknights and purifiers isn't over who gets which slot on the FOC chart, it's whether they get picked at all in the same army.  There are only so many points available to an army, and Purifiers and Dreadknights both take up a fair amount of the same niche - anti infantry with a slight bias towards light infantry.

At (say) 1500pts, I'm not sure that there is necessarily a place for both of them in the same army.

I don't think the psyfleman venerable dread has the same level of competition, either within its section or within the codex as a whole.  the GKs don't have that much in the way of long ranged anti tank to go around - Landraiders and Stormravens maybe?  I don't see purgation squads being a popular choice.

[Wofen]

Who needs long range when every single one of your squads DS?

I see Gray knights having the biggest problem with mobile armys. I have no doubts that 20 gray knights could crew though 100 guardsman given them tiem (if at lest 1 is a purifier).  While I cant see my list having any problem, but mainly becuse I have 11 Plamsa guns mounted in chimeras, come on, land close to me all on your lonesom.

And I ahve to disagree, the Dreadknight is not really antihoard, does not have anywhere near the number of attacks to really hurt a large hoard. 20 guardsman would tarpit it for 4-5 turns.

After playing vs the purifiers, I ahve to say I think they are a super mathahammer unit... but in real game life, they are not over powering. The easiest way to counter them is a PBS, had to pass LD test on LD2.

As funny as it is, my PBS was the best squad I had vs the Gray knights... Even thought the gray knights are ment to be made to kill them. Yeah, Gray knights with LD2 kinda suck.

Wofen

[Underhand]

The long range is necessary against armies with a lot of fast moving vehicles, or armies which outflank or stay in reserve.  Deploying from reserve is a pretty common tactic these days, and it will become pretty standard against a Deepstriking army like Grey Knights.

If you have a look at the weapons options, you willl see how the DreadKnight can very comfortably fill an anti infantry role, if not anti horde.  20 guardsmen would not last 4-5 turns against a DreadKnight with a gatling psilencer and heavy incinerator. 2 turns, maybe.

[Wofen]

Unless there was a rule that allowed them to shoot in combat that I forgot about.

While I agree that they have enough shots to counter hoards, once in combat they will not preform as well as Purifier's vs very large squads.

But on the table, its rare that they actuly get to assault full squads, as they are normally knocked down by shooting.

Wofen

[legionnaire]

So i have a quick question since the new gray knights look DS heavy  we just have to worry about increase amounts of deepstriking termies right?

Haven't had a chance to read the book been busy with life and all. Other then that it looks like the astropath is going to be finding its way into list more and more seems i need to covert a model eh.

[Calamity]

I'm I so glad that I have two demolishers now!

If DS is going to be the DKs main method, then I plan to make it as difficult as possible for them.  An Ootf is just for starters.....

[Wofen]

I am not quite that an OotF is actuly a good idea in games vs all DS. It makes them turn up later... but they will still have 2 turns to act, and my biggest fear is that they land on the objective, and you just dont have the time to kill them.

It does give you one turn more to remove the starter untis, or first turn DS units, but to me its not a instant get. I would still Rather a Astro, I would rahter I have my units a turn ealier then he has his a turn later.

I think my VS GK list will have 3 Demolisers... and a few more demo packs. Other then that, I dont think I will change anything, and the Demolishers are just overkill for the paladin's.

I am trying to work out if the Dreadkight will be a problem. I hate Wraithlords, but the Dreadkinght's dont seem to stack up. There T is just not enough, and if it was not for their save, I would say a squad of Ogryn's could beat them, and thats not a good thing. While they have some insane ranged anti-inf/light tank, but its the same number of Lascannons to kill it as it is to kill a Land Raider. 2 HWS with BiD should do it, or in my case 2 Plasma Vet squads at close range and its gone.

Wofen

[Underhand]

An Officer of the Fleet is posibly the best 30pts you could spend against Grey Knights.

There is a huge diference between dealing with 3 deepstriking Terminator units than 5.  Keep them off the table and deal with them piece by piece.

Astropaths are of course always a good idea for an army that has scout/outflanking units.

Dreadknights will be a problem or armies that use Russes, since they can Deesptrike to target rear armour and will be able to close to CC on the next turn - they will be more of a problem than Dreadnoughts are now.  The Dreadknight vs Ogryn debate is purely theoretcal since noone ever takes Ogryns in 5th edition.