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Author Topic: Craftworlds 2000 pts - need help improving and upgrading to 2250  (Read 963 times)

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Offline SeekingOne

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Greetings! :)

To make long story short, I really need some help answering a traditional question, well-known to any 40k hobbyist: What to paint next? :) But first, let me give you some context for the question.

Here's the list I've been using lately:

Quote
Detachment: Battalion (Saim-Hann)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
HQ 1: Farseer Skyrunner (Witchblade) - [135]
HQ 2: Warlock Skyrunner (Witchblade) - [70]
HQ 3: Maugan Ra - [140]

Troops 1: 5 Dire Avengers (Exarch) - [60]
Troops 2: 5 Dire Avengers - [60]
Troops 3: 5 Dire Avengers - [60]

Elites 1: 7 Fire Dragons (Exarch, Dragon's breath flamer) - [168]

Heavy Support 1: 5 Dark Reapers - [135]

Transport: Wave Serpent (Spirit stone, Shuriken cannon, Twin shuriken cannon) - [144]

Detachment: Outrider (Saim-Hann)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
HQ 1: Autarch Skyrunner (Laser lance) - [108]

Fast Attack 1: 3 Windriders (3 x Scatter laser) - [84]
Fast Attack 2: 3 Windriders (3 x Scatter laser) - [84]
Fast Attack 3: 3 Windriders (3 x Scatter laser) - [84]
Fast Attack 4: 6 Shining Spears (Exarch, Star lance) - [188]

Detachment: Air Wing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Flyers 1: Crimson Hunter - [160]
Flyers 2: Crimson Hunter - [160]
Flyers 3: Crimson Hunter - [160]

Total: 2000
(For those who followed my Project thread - I did finally have a bit of a break-through, and my squadron of 6 Shining Spears is almost complete. Hope to update the Project with some pics soon) :D

I consider this list to be a sort of "baseline" for my Craftworlds force in 8th edition. By "baseline" I mean that on one hand it makes the maximum use of the models that I already had painted since 7th, but on the other hand it already has undergone the minimal set of changes required to perform reasonably well in 8th, making some decent use of new game mechanics, stratagems, etc. It is not yet really optimised in terms of power (not by my standards anyway), but it did work surprisingly well for me so far.

There's a problem that I've been struggling with ever since I started painting my models to a decent quality and stopped playing with unpainted or crappily painted stuff: being a horrendously slow painter, I'm ever limited in units selection. In fact, this list above uses up about 90% of the painted models I have :)  The only other models/units that I have battle-ready are:
- 4 more Dragons
- 10 Warlocks on foot
- 15 Warp Spiders
- Wraithknight
Thus, unlike many other hobbyists who are much more talented and energetic than me, I cannot really commit to building and painting a whole new list with multiple new units and have it battle-ready in a month or two. I sort of have to evolve my list gradually, unit by unit, making sure that each new unit I paint works reasonably well with the rest of the list.

So, I hope sets the context for my question clearly enough. Now the question itself: in 2 (well, 1.5) weeks from now I'm participating in a local tournament with 2250 pts points limit, and I obviously need to expand the list above. If I were to use just the models I have, I guess the most natural thing to do would be to take a couple more Warlocks, maybe beef up the Dragons to a full squad of 10, and fill the rest with Spiders. However, in the time remaining, I just might paint up something more - something of better use than Spiders (which perform disappointingly poorly even with their reduced point cost). Realistically, in 1.5 weeks I can paint up to an acceptable tournament standard about 5 more infantry or a single vehicle - or, if I push myself really hard, I can probably increase that to 7-10 infantry or 2 vehicles. This can be virtually any unit(s), as I can't think of any codex unit that I haven't got at least a single box of models for lying around.  ;D I won't be able to complete the models of course, but I can do the airbrushing part and basing, and leave all the fine detailing for later. Question is, what unit should it be?

And then there's also additional long-term consideration: ideally I'd like that new unit to be something that I'll later upgrade my main 2k list with.

So, should it be the obvious choice of more Dark Reapers? Or is there something more creative that can be done here? 🙂 Any suggestions and thoughts on the question, as well as on the list in general, would be greatly appreciated!
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 03:39:22 AM by SeekingOne »
I fight against Chaos and for Order, because it means fighting for Life against Death. There is no other battle truly worth fighting.

"If it's not for a tournament then play whatever it is that you like. Without the pressure of having to utterly destroy your opponent it opens up alot more opportunity to have fun." - Lazarus

Offline Saim-Dann

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Re: Craftworlds 2000 pts - need help improving and upgrading to 2250
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2018, 04:44:43 AM »
G"day, SeekingOne!
Warp Hunter. Go for the Warp Hunter. Don't know how it would synergize with what you've already got, however, would love to see your painting skills on one... Pointy ears forever!!

Offline Partninja

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Re: Craftworlds 2000 pts - need help improving and upgrading to 2250
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2018, 05:40:07 AM »
I've found warp spiders to be quite good still. I'd take them out for a spin for a while unless you already have. Also note, I've been using a 10-man squad (I generally dislike and don't have much luck with MSU units except for rangers, bikes or wraithguard).

As for something "new" to paint Five wraithguard would be a good drop in. Would a big unit of guardians be too difficult in your time limit? They're not overly detailed and can be painted rather quickly. A detachment of rangers and warlocks could be nice too but would require more painting focus. At this point level I could really see the most benefit in just more reapers or shining spears.

Offline Alexxk

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Re: Craftworlds 2000 pts - need help improving and upgrading to 2250
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2018, 06:25:52 AM »
I don't know how competetive your tournament is, but you seem to want to get the most out of your list, so consider the folling advises (I wont go to competetive, I keep your list and soem fluff in mind):

-) Wave serpent: especially with 3 cannons (assault weapons), vectored engines are GREAT. You have enough anti infantry so just hitting on 4s is ok. the -1 to hit from vectored engines reduces damage taken by 25% (bs 3+ shooting), 33% (bs 4+ shooting) or even 50% (bs 5+ shooting). While spiritstones reduce it just by about 17%. You even save 5 points IIRC.

-) Reapers: Those are great and really good. Consider the tempest launcer on the exarch, its an awesome weapon! A second squad would definitly be good because the bring equal amounts of anti infantry and tank. You have to chose if you want a second squad (= another tempest launcher) or a big squad (= Fire and fade stratagem is really strong here)

-) Fire Dragons: vs T7 those 7 (with meltabombs used on the exarch) will do about 13W vs no invul saves. I don't know what you expect to face, but with one or 2 of the crimson hunters firing at the same target it should be gone. So take those more as final point fillers. I would recommend that you take a warlock with them, so you can jinx something that has an invul save.

-) Crimson Hunters: With the extra points I would upgrade them to exarchs. Rerolling 1's is worth it I guess, cause the wont be around the Autarch all the time.

-) Dire avengers, if you magnetized your models or the tournament is not WYSIWYG spend the extra 4 points for double catapult on the Exarchs.

-) Rangers are great! Since they infiltrate, you can easily deny deepstrike with them. They are also quite hard to move in cover. In your list I wouln't take them additionally, I would rather replace one of the dire avengers squads, so with painting time in mind this may be soemthing long ther (If you want to fill a brigarde at some point ;) )


I also like partyninjas advice with wraithguard. A unit of 5 with wraithcannons can deepstrike from the webway (if you don't have plans with this stratagem allready) and erase vehicles. Especially during turn 2, if you get doom and jinx onto something, the fire dragons and 5 wraithguards should be able to oneshot any lord of war! Together with the warlock for the fire dragons you have 15 more points open, for an ch exarch, the double catapults on the avengers, a ssinging spear on the farseer skyrunner or some serpent upgrades (vectored engines and star engines is a good combination).


So the other (and more "meta" aproach as you allready wrote) would be to get 5 more reapers (like writen above a second squad brings another tempest launcher, while a big one may have morale issues but can stay quite save with fire and fade). Definitly bring in the warlock for the dragons. The remeining 90 points can go into either making that single warlock a conclave (they will be unloaded up front, won't do much but its a use for ur models) or take more upgrades as you like (serpent with stones, star and vectored engines, CH exarchs, more avenger catapults, more dragons). You don't have more space in your detachmens for single warlocks sadly.

Third aproach would be to just fill in the warlock and a mixture of more reapers and shining spears!

I think your list looks quite fine, the only point of discussion would be maugan ra, a simple autarch with reaper launcher would fare similar while saving some points. A squad of warp spiders would be possible in addition to the reapers and warlock. Also have you looked into autarch equipment? If your tournament allows index loadouts you can give the autarch the banshees mask for free, which denies overwatch for him. And when he is in, the spears can follow safely.

A really unfluffy aproach would be to make the airwing and battalion craftworld alaitoc, since they don't gain anything from the saim-hann trait (shame on me for considering this, I know). Very competetive aproach, I don't know how competetive your meta is.

Have you thought about the psychic powers yet? Quicken would be great for the shining spears, together with the saim hann stratagem they can move 44" if you get it off, right infront of some caracters if bubble wrap allows it and assasinate basically any character. Obvious choice woule be on the warlock skyrunner. For the farseer doom and guide would be good for the dragons and their targets (the reapers dont need it that much with maugans reroll 1 aura). Fire Dragons support warlock should take jinx.

So a lot to consider, gonna look into your history now to see your painted models!

Offline Cavalier

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Re: Craftworlds 2000 pts - need help improving and upgrading to 2250
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2018, 06:26:07 AM »
@Seeking One- Hey bud, glad to see you back! Can't wait to see what you've cooked up in the project logs. I LOVE your list... I'm running something similar so I'm keen to compare notes.

As for adding something... how about some Howling Banshees? A little extra CC punch, plus Banshees mesh really well with the Saim-Hann traits. Re-rolling those charges distances is super nice and they are quick as hell.

If you aren't worried about getting Alpha Struck, they could borrow the Serpent you've already got in your list and perhaps allow you to sneak those Spiders in too if you've got the points.

I'd definitley add some CC as you've got killer shooting. Anyway just my thoughts, can't wait to see what you choose and see how you'll paint it. Looking forward to an update bud.
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Offline SeekingOne

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Re: Craftworlds 2000 pts - need help improving and upgrading to 2250
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2018, 11:04:11 AM »
Thank you ever so much people! Getting such 100% high quality feedback so quickly is just absolutely great.

@Casual
Warp Hunter is a really cool and interesting idea! However, unfortunately Forge World stuff is heavily frowned upon here and is banned from most events I attend regularly. But I do have plans to paint up a couple of Fire Prisms in the near future - I think they would make a good substitute for a Warp Hunter in terms of painting :)

@PartNinja
Thanks for advice! 10-strong unit of Warp Spiders is something I actually didn't think about, will definitely try it.
WG is also an interesting option. I assume you mean the Wraithcannon type, which can be dropped from the Webway? Deep-stiriking a unit of these alongside Dragons and advancing Shinig Spears, with CHs and Reapers supporting them from afar, might indeed leave my opponent facing more immediate threats than he can comfortably deal with. WG also should have some synergy with the Saim-Hann attribute as they are actually decent in close combat while being able to fall back and still fire if necessary. This means that I can comfortably paint them in Saim-hann colours without that annoying feeling of making a sub-optimal choice.

20 Guardians is definitely too many models... Besides, foot guardians don't fit the Saim-Hann theme that well - so I'm planning to eventually convert my army into a sort of allied force. According to my plans, Outrider detachment will stay Saim-Hann, while Battalion will have its non-Aspect units painted in some non-standard colour scheme which would enable me to field it as Alaitoc or Ulthwe. Then it would be time to expand it with some Guardians and Rangers. However, before I do that the new colour scheme has to be finalised - and I haven't yet got much further than the vague idea of using deep blues and violets :) So guardians will have to wait.

@Alexxk
Thanks for some great food for thought, and for taking your time to write it all down. I think you're spot on with practically all suggestions. As I mentioned above, I do feel that I'm starting to lean very strongly towards a unit of Wraithguard (not the least because I actually have a unit of 5 already assembled, magnetised and primed! :)) One thing that makes me reluctant to paint more Reapers right now is the upcoming big GW FAQ that presumably should hit us in March. If Reapers end up getting a huge point cost increase, the effort will be wasted...

As for the "unfluffy suggestion" ;D my tournaments are pretty competitive (not LVO level, but still there are lists like Nids with 15 Hive Guard, 2 Exocrenes and 6 character Zoantropes, or Tallarn IG with outflanking super-heavy). Now, I can't really declare my Battalion Alaitoc as my farseer, warlock and Serpent are painted in Saim-Hann colours, and colour scheme is treated as a part of WYSIWYG :) However, Crimson Hunters are Aspects and technically have their own Aspect colour scheme - and so my Air Wing will be Alaitoc for sure )

One thing is unclear to me though: why do you think that Warlock supporting Dragons should have Jinx? Is it to reduce Inv saves?

@Cavalier
Hey, glad to hear you too :) Since you're interested, I'll definitely try to write up a summary of my experience with the list.
Banshees are actually my latest purchase  :) Love them, and will likely be painting them soon! However, I feel they really do need their own Serpent to keep them safe from 1st turn alpha-strikes, and I do face those a lot (see my note above about the Nid lists which can be seen around...).
As I mentioned above, I have some grand plans on developing two allied forces, one of which will be Saim-Hann with bikes, melee units and likely WG, and the other ground/ranged Alaitoc, with Rangers, Reapers and Guardians. Once I paint up the first non-Saim-Hann Serpent, Reapers will switch to it and then the Saim-Hann one that I currently have will be free to take girls on board :)
I fight against Chaos and for Order, because it means fighting for Life against Death. There is no other battle truly worth fighting.

"If it's not for a tournament then play whatever it is that you like. Without the pressure of having to utterly destroy your opponent it opens up alot more opportunity to have fun." - Lazarus

Offline Alexxk

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Re: Craftworlds 2000 pts - need help improving and upgrading to 2250
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2018, 05:40:48 PM »

One thing is unclear to me though: why do you think that Warlock supporting Dragons should have Jinx? Is it to reduce Inv saves?

You got it!

Offline Aurics Pride

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Re: Craftworlds 2000 pts - need help improving and upgrading to 2250
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2018, 10:24:20 AM »
I've got to say I really love your current list, fluffy but definitely strong. It's got a real good edge to it.
Personally if you are wanting to keep the theme going then I would try and free up some points here and there and drop a pair of Fire Prisms into the list using the Dark Reapers and one of the HQ choices to make a Spearhead detachment and net you another Command Point.
I absolutely love Fire Prisms nowadays, particularly with the new double shot ability and the ability to Link Fire, they can really put out a huge amount of damage.
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Offline SeekingOne

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Re: Craftworlds 2000 pts - need help improving and upgrading to 2250
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2018, 09:29:49 AM »
A little update:

As ever, I ended up realising I was sort of fooling myself, lol. When I was writing my initial post last Wednesday, I did sincerely believe that I only have about 6-7 hours of work left to complete my Shining Spears. In reality 7 hours turned into 7 days, with me actually finishing Spears just this Tuesday. Thus, I'm going into the tomorrow's tournament with the models I have available. I'm planning to take the following list:

Quote
Detachment: Battalion (Saim-Hann)
>

HQ 1: Farseer Skyrunner (Witchblade) - [135] (Doom, Fortune)
HQ 2: Maugan Ra - [140]

Troops 1: 5 Dire Avengers (Exarch, Dual avenger shuricat) - [64]
Troops 2: 5 Dire Avengers - [60]
Troops 3: 5 Dire Avengers - [60]

Elites 1: 10 Fire Dragons (Exarch, Dragon's breath flamer) - [240]
Fast Attack 1: 5 Warp Spiders (Exarch, Powerblades) - [94]
Heavy Support 1: 5 Dark Reapers (Exarch, Tempest launcher) - [140]

Transport 1: Wave Serpent (Spirit stone, Vectored engines, Shuriken cannon (upg.), Twin shuriken cannon) - [149]

Detachment: Outrider (Saim-Hann)
>

HQ 1: Autarch Skyrunner (Novalance of Saim-Hann, Warlord) - [108]

Fast Attack 1: 3 Windriders (3 x Scatter laser) - [84]
Fast Attack 2: 3 Windriders (3 x Scatter laser) - [84]
Fast Attack 3: 3 Windriders (3 x Scatter laser) - [84]
Fast Attack 4: 6 Shining Spears (Exarch, Star lance) - [188]

Detachment: Supreme Command (Saim-Hann)
>

HQ 1: Warlock Skyrunner (Witchblade) - [70] (Protect/Jinx)
HQ 2: Warlock (Witchblade) - [35] (Quicken/Restrain)
HQ 3: Warlock (Witchblade) - [35] (Conceal/Reveal)

Detachment: Air Wing (Alaitoc)
>

Flyers 1: Crimson Hunter - [160]
Flyers 2: Crimson Hunter - [160]
Flyers 3: Crimson Hunter - [160]

Total: 2250

It's a 2-days event, 2 games per day. Will post an update about my experiences either here or in my Project board.

Also wanted to say big thanks once more to all who commented in this thread - even though I didn't get to extend my list to 2250 with a fresh new unit, the feedback on improving my initial 2k list was invaluable for my future painting projects.
I fight against Chaos and for Order, because it means fighting for Life against Death. There is no other battle truly worth fighting.

"If it's not for a tournament then play whatever it is that you like. Without the pressure of having to utterly destroy your opponent it opens up alot more opportunity to have fun." - Lazarus

Offline Mithrarias

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Re: Craftworlds 2000 pts - need help improving and upgrading to 2250
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2018, 06:34:42 PM »
Just curious. Why Saim-Hann for your first detachment? I know you want to be fluffy, but I don't see any benefit from Saim-Han trait in that detachment.

Same with Supremme Command one.
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Offline Saim-Dann

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Re: Craftworlds 2000 pts - need help improving and upgrading to 2250
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2018, 07:07:13 PM »
Looking strong Seekingone!
Lots of anti-tank and 36 S6 shots from those bikes? Niiiiice anti-horde. Have to agree with Mithrarias about the Saim-Hann Battalion Detachment. Alaitoc would suit them better having the DA sitting past 12" with their 18" range weapons cover firing for the Dragons and Spiders. This would also help protect the Reapers/Maugan Ra.

Can see what you're doing with the Air Wing Detachment as well. Giving the CH's a minus 3 to hit, however, I think minus 2 is enough and if you make them Iyanden the doubling of their damage chart will add to their durability even more. Can you imagine that, Seekingone? FINALLY your opponent manages to hit the blessed things and it just scratches the surface. Pure evil, mate.

Just my humble opinion, Seekingone. Your experience outways mine by miles so go with your gut... Pointy ears forever!!       

Offline Alexxk

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Re: Craftworlds 2000 pts - need help improving and upgrading to 2250
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2018, 06:28:02 PM »
Looking strong Seekingone!
Lots of anti-tank and 36 S6 shots from those bikes? Niiiiice anti-horde. Have to agree with Mithrarias about the Saim-Hann Battalion Detachment. Alaitoc would suit them better having the DA sitting past 12" with their 18" range weapons cover firing for the Dragons and Spiders. This would also help protect the Reapers/Maugan Ra.

Can see what you're doing with the Air Wing Detachment as well. Giving the CH's a minus 3 to hit, however, I think minus 2 is enough and if you make them Iyanden the doubling of their damage chart will add to their durability even more. Can you imagine that, Seekingone? FINALLY your opponent manages to hit the blessed things and it just scratches the surface. Pure evil, mate.

Just my humble opinion, Seekingone. Your experience outways mine by miles so go with your gut... Pointy ears forever!!     

Where are you getting the -2/-3? They are hard to hit (-1) and alaitoc (-1), the third would be the stratagem (lighning reflexes or so), but its 1 times per phase only?

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Re: Craftworlds 2000 pts - need help improving and upgrading to 2250
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2018, 09:17:55 PM »
Your right, Alexxk! my bad. Thanks for the correction.

Offline SeekingOne

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Re: Craftworlds 2000 pts - need help improving and upgrading to 2250
« Reply #13 on: March 4, 2018, 06:20:41 AM »
Hey guys,

The update I promised is here - you can see the event overview in the Batreps board.

In brief, I scored two crushing victories vs mechanised Astra Militarum and Tau on battlesuits and drones, a draw against Death Guard and a minor loss against Daemons, giving me the 2nd place overall.

The list performed well overall, but there are a couple of points in it that keep feeling distinctly weak.

1. Fire Dragons.
Yeah, as ever, these guys just don't work for me as I expect them to. I did get a chance to use them to full effect in a couple of games in this event, but both times it was glaringly obvious that it only happened due to my opponents' obvious mistakes.
The problem, again, is not in Dragons being bad by themselves - rather, they require a very specific situation to work well and it always feels easy for my opponents to avoid such situations. They worked awesome at first combined with the Webway Strike stratagem, but since people realised the importance of screening, I often find that it's difficult to get them to a worthy target if my opponent doesn't want me to. In fact, as long as you have some cheap infantry, screening is so easy that it actually looks like it would be easier to get Dragons to their target by a Wave Serpent - at least when moving normally they can run up to 1" to any screen, giving them much longer reach. This is probably what I'd test as soon as I get a second Serpent painted.

2. Screening&Infiltration
I need Rangers, plain and simple. The last game against Daemons (see the link to report above) particularly made it glaringly obvious how useful an option to put a unit beyond my deployment zone before turn 1 can be. A unit of Rangers infiltrating onto a relic could've thwarted my opponent's plans pretty significantly. And of course, as it was mentioned by Alexxk, being able to infiltrate further into the field should be great for screening.

3. Anti-personnel fire
And one more thing I definitely need more of is anti-personnel firepower. Scatter-bikes are actually quire good at that, but there's simply not enough of them - while Avengers, being my only screen, die too quickly and too early. Not sure what to turn to here though...

As usual, any thoughts and comments are greatly appreciated!

EDIT
4. Conceal
One thing I forgot to mention is that I still fail to see any purpose in Warlock powers other than Protect/Jinx and Quicken. E.g., while I managed to cast Conceal a few times, it barely ever came into effect. Hence fielding more than 2 Warlocks in a list feels a bit pointless - yet, judging by the Internet, many competitive Eldar players seem to be doing just that. Why? What am I missing here?

EDIT 2
Just curious. Why Saim-Hann for your first detachment? I know you want to be fluffy, but I don't see any benefit from Saim-Han trait in that detachment.
As I detailed in my recent Project Board post, it's all about colour scheme. Certain events that I attend require the army's special rules (chapter tactics, craftworld attributes, etc.) to correspond to the army's colour scheme in all cases when the colour scheme is clearly recognisable as that of one of the "standard" sub-factions. And all non-Aspect units in my force are currently painted as Saim-Hann - hence the Saim-Hann trait :) My Air Wing on the other hand is composed of Crimson Hunters which are Aspect warriors and wear their own Aspect colours - hence they can have any craftworld attribute without violating any WYSIWYG requirements.
« Last Edit: March 4, 2018, 07:17:12 AM by SeekingOne »
I fight against Chaos and for Order, because it means fighting for Life against Death. There is no other battle truly worth fighting.

"If it's not for a tournament then play whatever it is that you like. Without the pressure of having to utterly destroy your opponent it opens up alot more opportunity to have fun." - Lazarus

Offline Partninja

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Re: Craftworlds 2000 pts - need help improving and upgrading to 2250
« Reply #14 on: March 4, 2018, 11:00:08 AM »
People field more warlocks simply to take HQ detachments for more command points. Ideally you would want to take Spiritseers instead for smite. It also allows you to spread out your ability to deny the witch.

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Re: Craftworlds 2000 pts - need help improving and upgrading to 2250
« Reply #15 on: March 4, 2018, 11:24:26 AM »
When playing shooty Eldar I try, if possible, to include the following Runes of Battle Powers
-Protect / Jinx
-Protect / Jinx
-Conceal / Reveal
-Quicken / Restrain

But the utility of the powers is entirely based on the units you're using with them.  I've typically got a unit of 10 Dark Reapers that get buffed with Conceal, Protect and either Guide or an Autarch.  Against shooting attacks Conceal is typically more effective than Protect barring auto-hitting weapons and the like.  Plus it stacks with Alaitoc's Fieldcraft as well as Lightning Fast Reactions strategem.

Protect, Jinx, and Conceal I've found to be useful pretty much every turn of the game.  Quicken is highly situational.  I usually take two Spiritseers (Protect/Jinx and Conceal/Reveal) and one Warlock Conclave of two (Protect/Jinx and Quicken/Restrain). The Warlock Conclave gives access to Concordance of Power allowing either Jinx to be cast from beyond Deny the Witch range (can be huge) or Quicken to be cast across the board (hello Shining Spears and 32" movement with a charge afterward).

Plus as stated even if you end up in a situation where a given power isn't useful Smite almost always is (thus Spiritseers).
Rejoice.  Despair. 
Fate does not care.
Each knotted mind entwined. 
Each soul another's bind.
And blind though we are led. 
In time we do know when, to cut a thread.
-Erfworld

Offline Saim-Dann

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Re: Craftworlds 2000 pts - need help improving and upgrading to 2250
« Reply #16 on: March 4, 2018, 08:02:46 PM »
G'day, SeekingOne!
Don't know where you'd juggle the points, but three vypers with either two shuriken cannons, (18 S6 shots with a heavy chance of rending,) or three scatter lasers up top and three shuriken cannons down below for more range, (21S6 shots with 9 possible rending).

These configurations have never let me down and tying in with scatter bikes, not much survives. I also have a Farseer skyrunner tagging along with these. Guide onto the vypers and doom onto their target every round. The reroll of wounds increases the chances for rending. Turning space marine armour from 3plus to 6plus saves is a hoot... Pointy ears forever!!
   

Offline Partninja

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Re: Craftworlds 2000 pts - need help improving and upgrading to 2250
« Reply #17 on: March 4, 2018, 09:39:35 PM »
Do you want your AI to have long range? The tried and true guardian can deliver a lot of shots to eat up screening units. Pretty easy to deep strike min squads. You could also use windriders with twin catapults if you simply want to increase their volume of fire. These would sacrifice range though.

Offline SeekingOne

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Re: Craftworlds 2000 pts - need help improving and upgrading to 2250
« Reply #18 on: March 5, 2018, 10:41:06 AM »
@Scorn

Many thanks for the comprehensive outline of the powers usage. Good points, particularly about a Spiritseer being able to stay useful with Smite in the case when his main power has no target. The only thing I slightly disagree with is this:
Against shooting attacks Conceal is typically more effective than Protect barring auto-hitting weapons and the like. 
Statistically, if Protect is used on a model with a base 3+ save to boost it to 2+, it is significantly more efficient than Conceal. Even when Conceal goes on top of Fieldcraft, boosting save to 2+ is still better. If the model is already in cover and thus already benefits from 2+ save, Conceal is better vs AP0 weapons, but still worse vs weapons with AP -1 or AP -2. It's better to have both though  :D

@Saim-Dann

Thanks for pointing out the Vypers - it seems I kind of forgot about them. The combination of Scatter+Shuricannon is definitely worth looking into, particularly seeing that I have one painted and another one half-painted.

@Partninja
Yes, guardians do sound like a good option. This also ties very neatly into my semi-frustration with Dragons: I've a strong feeling that if I just replace 7 Dragons with 20 guardians in my base 2k list (practically the same cost), the army would gain a ton of extra flexibility while practically not losing any raw power. Unlike Dragons, 20 Guardians can be dropped out of the Webway to engage literally any target, not just a vehicle.
Now, if only I could find some way to paint them up really quickly without sacrificing any quality...  ;D
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"If it's not for a tournament then play whatever it is that you like. Without the pressure of having to utterly destroy your opponent it opens up alot more opportunity to have fun." - Lazarus

Offline Scorn

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Re: Craftworlds 2000 pts - need help improving and upgrading to 2250
« Reply #19 on: March 5, 2018, 11:06:28 AM »
You're quite right regarding Protect vs. Conceal effectiveness.  That surprised after crunching the numbers.  Good spot.
Rejoice.  Despair. 
Fate does not care.
Each knotted mind entwined. 
Each soul another's bind.
And blind though we are led. 
In time we do know when, to cut a thread.
-Erfworld

 


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