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Offline Rumblebelly

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Roots
« on: January 24, 2002, 01:49:19 PM »

I was thinking about this issue the other day and couldn't get a real clear picture of it.  
What is the real history of the Dark Eldar?  For example, I know they are the Dark
kindred, staying and going down the path of self-gratification that the happy Eldar
did not.  But where did they recieve the Chaos influence that is so prevalent in
their society?  Was their world consumed by the warp?  Did Slaanash get to them?  The
DE codex is of no help (shame on GW!).  And I have read all the fluff on this site and others,
but am still not sure where our roots spread...

Also, it would interesting to put up some info on Harlequins and Exodites.  Again, I have read
stuff on this site and others, but I know some of you out there could write it all down in
chronological order.  Sooooo, reply and give me your portion of our history.  ;)

Rumble

Offline Karakth

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Re:Roots
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2002, 02:05:51 PM »
Well, here's how the story goes. You can find it in the Dark Elf Army book:
They went to the west over the sea. I can't find my army book so this is from the mind. They hated the high elves. Errr... Forgot the rest. But I think the Wyches used to be the Brides of the god of war. Errr...  ???
I think it was some dispute over.... Ah, yes now I remember. The Dark Elves wanted to join in the Great war at the time. But the high elves didn't want to. So they seperated from them and were led by their own king.  
Sorry, that's all I remember.  :-[
It's a very long story in the Dark Elf army book. I'll post it when I can find it.
~Karakth

Aulan Cnesha

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Re:Roots
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2002, 02:40:30 PM »
 ::)  He said Dark Eldar, not dark elves.

the_mighty_brain

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Re:Roots
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2002, 06:22:36 PM »
rogue trader and 2nd edition fluff varies on this topic, but here goes...

The Eldar use the webway instead of the warp. It was discovered that the warp can destroy the psychicaly sensitive Eldar mind and those that were not destroyed were corrupted some how. The craftworlds were once great trading vessels that returned to the Eldar homeworld every few centuries. Each time they returned they found the homeworlds becoming more and more decadent. Many Eldar could already see the corruption about them and left to collonise new worlds, becoming the exodites. Eventually when the craftworlds were away their decadence reached its peak and Slaanesh was created some how. The Eldar on the homeworlds went mad and killed each other and such (I presume that they basically became like DE, needing souls to sustain themselves) and the Craftworlds came a rescued those who were untouched by the corruption and eventually grew into huge space vessels. In the rescue attempts as the Eldar of the homeworld fought and indulged and Slaanesh was born a great rift in time space was made -the eye of terror- and many of the craftworlds as well as the Eldar homeworlds were sucked into the realm of chaos.
There the DE launch attacks from their great city of Commorragh (which I predict is the original Eldar homeworld, although I may be wrong)

The Harlequins formed after the fall. Their craftworld became the black library, hidden within the webway, storing all knowledge of Chaos.

I think that's about all of it

Man that was a strain on the brain :P




Offline Trunkhead

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Re:Roots
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2002, 06:23:10 PM »
if thought about this a bit myself. the best info i've found on it (although maybe not backed by GW) is on Jason Juta's site where he gives a background on all the Eldar. There he calls the Dark Eldar the "True Eldar" more honestly representing what the Eldar race resembled before for The Fall.
So I cranked up my logic and came up w/ this:

Just before the Fall and the formation of they Eye. a bunch of Nancy's who couldn't handle the society got in their big ships and ran-away like a dog w/ it's tail between it's legs.  The Society was degenerating rapidly and a small group of highly intellectiual Eldar correctly predicted the fall of the worlds (maybe they had a very good Farseer in their employ).  So armed with this knowledge they boosted their tails over to Commoragh <sp?> to continue society far away from the inpending doom.  Now we've allready determined that these Eldar are smarter than most other Eldar,  so they noticed a problem, while they enjoyed the society they were in, it was very probable that they would end up w/ the same results as the previous Eldar homeworlds. So armed w/ the information that Slannesh was born of the psychic eldar minds, they went on a 'witch' hunt and killed all the pyskers, a practice they keep to today explaining why there are no pyskers in the DE codex and the existence of such things like the crucible of malediction. So you see it's not so much that DE have chaos influence, it's more that Chaos has ancient Eldar influnces.  These Eldar are refered to as 'Dark' by Sally's who ran away, but to themselves they are the 'True' Eldar.

that's how I look it anyway - a creative mind can make fluff take whatever turns it wants (making you be able to justify army lists et al)
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I'm going to tell him I was framed
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the_mighty_brain

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Re:Roots
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2002, 02:21:52 AM »
I agree about the idea of the DE having no psykers because they kill them. Besides, I think if a Dark Eldar (or true eldar or whatever) was psychically sensitive they would be destroyed in warp space where commorragh resides.

Offline Karakth

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Re:Roots
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2002, 01:39:56 PM »
oops! I thought Eldar were related to elves somehow... hmm... :-[
~Karakth

Offline Trunkhead

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Re:Roots
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2002, 05:41:10 PM »
I'm not convinced that Commoragh (which by the way is always only refered to as a 'city' and not a 'planet' or 'world') is in or near the Eye.  I think if it was that close that Slannesh would constantly raid the world to 'Drink more souls'.  Instead i've always envisioned Commoragh being a city the either a) spans the entire surface of a planet. or b) is some kind of weird city that doesn't seem to have a planet, more like a hidden place in the warp a-la the black library that the Harlequins keep hidden.  I tend to think more that it's option B as this would explain why the embarrased Eldar haven't taken out  the planet, why the Imperium hasn't simply blown up the planet, why the Tyranids havn't infested, the Orks looted etc etc. All these races are MUCH bigger # wise than DE so i don't really see the DE being able to defend a planet that everyone knows where it is. If it was in the Eye where they can't see, Chaos would have taken it over.
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Offline TheMightyPikachu

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Re:Roots
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2002, 10:27:27 PM »
the fluff makes it seem lyke theres alot more dark kin than others, like when one warrior dies, a hundred take his place, while the craftworlders value every single soul

i still think DE shouldve had psychers though
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the_mighty_brain

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Re:Roots
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2002, 03:34:13 AM »
I don't because them it contrasts the DE from CE.

That's true, I got the idea that there are loads more Dark Eldar

Offline the_Bard_72

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Re:Roots
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2002, 11:42:03 AM »
On Commorragh, the fluff fave me the impression that it was a "pocket" of the webway.  I've always pictured it as the Dark Eldar's haven from Slaanesh from which they search out souls to offer up to the chaos lord to keep him at bay in a manner of speaking.  They are so involved in torture and raiding, it all just sort of falls into place this way, IMO.  
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Offline Khal Ynnoth

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Re:Roots
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2002, 01:50:03 PM »
Has anyone seen Babylon 5 Thirdspace? The Dark City in that is how I imagine Commoragh and I have a feeling that there is some fluff by GW, (maybe a White Dwarf) that suggests that it is either in the Webway (like the Black Library) or at the very least only accessible via the Webway.
I would propose that they are essentially the "true" Eldar, direct decendants of the pre-fall Eldar and their society, not trapping their souls in an infinity circuit to escape Slannesh, but postponing their fate indefinitely by sacrificing others souls for immortality.
Plus anyone have any Ahra Fluff?


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Their cause is ours, this blood seals our fates forever!"
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Offline Trunkhead

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Re:Roots
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2002, 02:44:25 PM »
Why do the DE fight over souls if it's just going to be sacrificed to Slannesh to keep the RACE alive why would an idividual want a soul so bad? and why are the souls of the more powerful desired more?
I dont' buy the soul sacrifice thing, so how about this.
The Eldar mind had developed a dependancy on pyschics but Dark Eldar kill all their pyskers because they blame them for the fall of the the Home worlds. (it doesnt' make sense that they are killing the pyskers to hide from Slannesh, because if Slannesh could detect pyskers in the webway portal the would have found and destroyed the Harlequins and their black library by now).  So the Dark Eldar mind adjusted for survival's sake and now takes the souls as a substitute for the lack of pyschic abaility.  A more poweful soul would provide a more powerful euphoric feeling, think Highlander and the Quickening.
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Offline the_Bard_72

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Re:Roots
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2002, 03:32:05 PM »
The reason I tend to lean towards the soul sacrifice option is that it does work well with the existing fluff and is hinted at strongly in it.  The whole purpose of the Eldar Spirit or Way stone is to capture their soul to keep it from being "absorbed into the timeless depths of the warp" as, for the Eldar "to enter the Realm of Chaos as a conscious spirit represents the ultimate horror." (quoting the 2nd ed codex here)
In WD 227, part of the fluff introduced is an imperial transcript which asks of the Dark Eldar,  "How do they stave off the depredations of the Nemesis of the Eldar, the Great Enemy?"
Obviously, the DE capture slaves for torture, being an  example of the depravity of the Eldar before the Fall and how it has evolved since.  This is part of why they are "not nice, not nice at all" (3rd ed codex).  On pg 42 (again, 3rd ed codex), the fluff talks of "something that fills their race with an utter dread, driving them onto ever more despicable acts of wanton bloodshed and torure; the Great Enemy...there is a desperation about them...as if their very survival depended upon the extremity of the grievious deeds they perform."  In the next-to-last fluff from the codex, it talks of "the air filled with escaping souls...the screams of spirits in eternal torment sounded on the edge of hearing."  It does speak of the Archon drinking souls, as suggested by Trunkhead, as well: "Spirits unnumbered are distilled in agony and torutre to the peak of exquisite taste to fill the chasm of my soul".
To me, this all adds up to the logical conclusion that DE need souls to deliver to Slaanesh in a vain attempt to preserve their own soul.  The more "able" you are, the more souls you can personally absorb, adding to your own strength (i.e. Highlander, again as Trunkhead suggests), but you must still confront the final enemy.  Note that in the fluff, the Archon appears to regain a bit of youth as he drinks in the souls, which he does out of "need".  Drinking souls=renewing your own=keeping Slaanesh at bay.  Torturing your victims in some way, IMHO, invigorates the soul of the tortured, making its soul, upon its release, more effective in enhancing the consumer's vitality.
To summarize my opinion on this, the Dark Eldar are so dark, evil, and depraved out of a desire to create fear/terror/tortures so that the souls they consume effectively strengthen/renew their own souls, delaying the inevitable consumption of their own soul by chaos.
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the_mighty_brain

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Re:Roots
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2002, 03:55:12 PM »
Khal Ynnoth
Has anyone seen Babylon 5 Thirdspace?

I have seen it. The city is exactly what I pictured in my mind. So are the bad guy ships.

But them again don;t you think the Minbari are just like Eldar in many ways?


Offline Trunkhead

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Re:Roots
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2002, 09:04:12 PM »
I must say i'm really enjoying this thread! Kudos to Rumblebelly...

So, Bard 72, that was an awesome post, and for a moment I was almost convinced of the sacrifical souls theory, but then I read something in the codex to think that the solution I proposed may be closer (not exact mind you) to the truth.
2nd to last page, opposite the full size picture of the Archon against a moon. 2nd column about 2/3rds of the way down.
 "you need to rule? What do you know of needs?  You are young, the Thirst has a shallow hold on you. I will tell you of need; a deep unfaltering emptiness that grows larger and more demanding with every passing nite.  You have heard tales of how I consume a hundred souls a day. That is but the morsel to whet my appetite. A hundred times that number die every day to quench my desire, my need. (continues)"
 The reference of *the Thirst*  and souls being consumed to *quench my desire my need* refer to that fact that they Eldar use the souls for themselves instead of giving them up as some sort of sacrifice.  Like a drug, after they've had some they build a tolernece AND become dependant on them, meaning they need more and more to feed themselves - only the most powerful can sustain such an appetite.  Again I submit this as some sort of evolution, a turn the True Eldar took after the ruthless eradication of Pyschics.
 As far as the the reference to the fluff on codex page 42, at first it seems to make sense. But the witness was Imperial in nature (ever notice the different type of script GW uses for each race?). As such, I dont' think he had a firm grip on what the Eldar race is about, and since his experiance re: Eldar, ties to Slannesh it would be natural that he would try to tie these Eldar to Slannesh also.
 Again I don't think the Dark Eldar have Chaos influences, I think Chaos has "True" Eldar influences, which brings about an intersting question:  are Dark Eldar also the "True" Chaos?
You know what I'll say when I see God?
I'm going to tell him I was framed
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Offline the_Bard_72

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Re:Roots
« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2002, 10:03:14 PM »
This is indeed a great thread  :)

The fluff that you mention, about the Thirst is exactly what I was pointing to.  He "needs" to quench this thirst which is, in reality, the only thing that keeps him alive (note how it seems to rejunavate him) and, therefore, his soul intact and out of Chaos' hands.  An important point that I may be glazing over is that I don't feel that the DE are Chaos influenced other than they are motivated by the desire to escape Chaos and this is their only option (at least for now).  In a sense, the Eldar are using the souls for themselves and they are addicted to them...because it keeps their souls safe the only way they can currently: by not allowing their souls to be released into the warp (and thus, to Chaos).

As for the imperial transmission, what else do we have to go on that's official GW?  Of course the Imps are going to get it wrong (after all, they mistook shurikats for lascannons, right?  ::) ), but that doesn't mean there is no basis to truth behind it.

When it all gets boiled down, I think we are looking at it the same way, just from different angles.  Neither of us think of DE as a "Chaos" army and we both feel that they have a need to devour souls to satiate their thirst.  My thinking, however, is that this goes beyond a mere addiction, but is a sacrifice they have adapted to in order to keep their souls secure for as long as they can.

As for Dark Eldar being the "True Chaos"?  May be stepping out on a limb here, but I think not.  While they are evil, their motivations still seem too measured (at least in my view) and bent not on the evil acts, but on the need to perform "evil" in order to survive.  This is opposed to the more common chaos where evil is done for evil's sake and to earn favor from the chaos gods.  DE, IMHO, fear/hate Slaanesh as much as any other Eldar would, but their situation calls for a drastic solution until Slaanesh is taken out of the picture somehow.

Maybe Trunkhead and I should hold a special committee meeting with the Incubi and launch a full investigation? lol  ;D
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Offline TheMightyPikachu

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Re:Roots
« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2002, 12:45:15 AM »
who else devours souls for the need of it?
take a guess.....















starts with an "S"












ends with an "h"















slaanesh! she-who-thirsts
the great enemy
the devourer of souls

and there are chaos eldar though, mentioned in the 2nd ed codex
i think, some day, if i play chaos, ill make a daemon prince that was once eldar
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the_mighty_brain

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Re:Roots
« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2002, 03:19:00 AM »
You may well play Chaos if the new codex is a sick as I have been told ;D

Offline Trunkhead

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Re:Roots
« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2002, 02:46:52 PM »
Okay i'm going to try this from a different angle, I'm going to try and prove that the sacrifical theory is right:

A) Slannesh kills Eldar on sight
B) So he can drink/eat their souls
C) Slannesh will hunt and attack Eldar if knows where they are
D) Slannesh knows where Commoragh is.

so you have:
1) A & B
2) C & D / Therefore the Darke Eldar Sacrifice souls to keep Slannesh from eating them.

So lets break it down.
A) Slannesh Kills Eldar on sight
Well he certainly doesn't sit down for tea and crumpets with them. In fact there's ton of fluff that mentions how the two hate each other and take great pains to destroy one another. so this premise is TRUE
B) So he can Eat/Drink their souls
 His name is after all "the drinker of souls" & "he who Thirsts"  This premise is TRUE - as a side note he also is the only Chaos lord that seems to have this need
C) Slannesh will hunt and attack Eldar if knows where they are
 Consistent with "A".  Slannesh has nothing else to do besides hunt his food.  Since he hates them AND eats them, it follows that if he knew where they were, he'd kill them. TRUE
D) Slannesh knows where Commoragh is.
 Allright, hold on a minute.  apperantly NO ONE knows where Commoragh is, and no mention has ever been made of "raids" on Commoragh.  Which makes me believe that this premise is FALSE

well we can stop there since the argument is no longer sound.  Another way you can look at it is, Slannesh ONLY eats Eldar souls.  What good would sacrificing others souls for him to eat do?  
I also want to go back to the Thirst.  Thirst =df. A sensation of dryness in the mouth and throat related to a need or desire to drink. The desire to drink.  How does that connect w/ saving souls to sacrifice? it just makes no sense to me.
How about this?  the Eldar had grown into a sophisticated cannabilistic society.  With the growth of pyshics the cannabilisation of souls became common place.  The craftworld eldar were a part of society that abhored this practice and left. The Dark Eldar predicted the coming of Slannesh (again, smart cookies or a good Farseer) and took to the warp to find a new place to live.  The combination of growing pyschics and consumption of souls errupted into the Formation of Slannesh.  Slannesh basically being a manifestation of the race that formed him, resulting in him/her having the ultimate desire or Thrist.
Slannesh using the pyschic eminations in the warp, hunts eldar souls to drink.  Each eldar race (true and craftworld) deal with this in their own way. Craftworld trap the souls in the infinity circuit to keep it away from Slannesh, and let it help the craftworld in some way. True Eldar simply eat/absorb the souls. Either way Slannesh doesn't get it.  Slannesh has trouble finding craftworld Eldar because they are always moving, and he can't find the True Eldar because they dont' cause pyschic waves since they kill all their pyskers (Blaming them for the Fall).

how's that? it works for me
You know what I'll say when I see God?
I'm going to tell him I was framed
 - The Way of the Gun

 


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