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Author Topic: 1850 - Orks - Rate my list  (Read 3220 times)

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Offline Akaitsuki

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1850 - Orks - Rate my list
« on: March 26, 2017, 06:15:41 PM »
About this list:
I wanted choppy walkers and a very 'in your face' aggressive pursuit list. The deffdreads and renegade knight are very powerful assault units while the boyz in trukks have objective secured and are fast moving to keep pace with the knight and deffkoptas. Behind them the warboss leads his tankbustas blasting armor left and right from inside the kill bursta tank. The deff dreads are on rear guard duty and second wave assault as I predict i'll be engaged with the enemy by turn 2 from all my fast units the dreads could join in turn 3 and help mop up.
 
Comment on the following points
 - Would you win on pure brute strength? rulebook mission objectives? both?
 - Would you need to list tailor to win or can your standard list take it down?
 - What would you find most challenging to deal with in this list, what are you most concerned about?
 - How would you rate yourself as a 40k player on a scale of 1-10 (1 being a Novice brand new to the game, 10 international/global tournament winner

1850 Pts - Codex: Orks Roster - 1850 - Combined Arms

: Combined Arms Detachment (52#, 1525 pts)

   1 Warboss, 100 pts (Bosspole; Power Klaw; Shoota; Warlord)
      1 Da Finkin' Kap

   10 Tankbustas, 130 pts

   9 Boyz, 125 pts (Slugga)
      1 Boss Nob (Power Klaw)
      1 Trukk

   9 Boyz, 125 pts (Slugga)
      1 Boss Nob (Power Klaw)
      1 Trukk

   9 Boyz, 125 pts (Slugga)
      1 Boss Nob (Power Klaw)
      1 Trukk

   2 Deffkoptas, 110 pts (Twin-linked Rokkit Launcha x2; Buzzsaw x2)

   2 Deffkoptas, 110 pts (Twin-linked Rokkit Launcha x2; Buzzsaw x2)

   1 Deff Dread, 100 pts (Power Klaw x2)
   1 Deff Dread, 100 pts (Power Klaw x2)
   1 Deff Dread, 100 pts (Power Klaw x2)

   1 Kill Bursta (IA), 400 pts (Bursta Kannon)

: Renegade Knight (1#, 325 pts)
   1 Renegade Knight [RKn], 325 pts


Total Roster Cost: 1850

Offline dog_of_war

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Re: 1850 - Orks - Rate my list
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2017, 10:15:43 PM »
You pose an interesting list. While I have no experience facing super heavy tanks like the Kill Bursta or Knight Class Titans, I am a fairly experienced ork player and can see the weak points in your army. I see from your other posts that you are not looking for advice to tweak your list, so I will try keep the responses to your questions.

How would I win? With taking more than half of your entire army on 5 heavy units, I would definitely use finesse and speed to beat this army. The dreads acting as body guards for the knight can be completely ignored until after the super heavy tank and knight are taken care of. The dreads are only a threat in close combat and your two monster units would only be engaged during the shooting phase. If I was using eldar, fire dragons in falcons using a cloudstrike formation to deepstrike them would make short work of them and have very little fear of reprisal. The dreads could try and assault them after, but I'd have a pretty good chance of getting off some overwatch shots that would most likely take out a dread or two. Conversely if allied with Dark Eldar, I could take an archon with a webway portal and deepstrike wraithguard or fire dragons and D weapon or melta them to oblivion. These options would cost roughly the same points as the tank and knight they were taking out and are pretty much guaranteed to strike first with little fear of reprisal. That would leave half your army to have to face what remained of mine. Granted, you will have a turn or two to use their shooting attacks to whittle down my forces, but if I reserve most of the army, except for some rangers, maybe take a voidshield generator and take an autarch to guarantee reserves, I'd still have half my list to deal with some boyz in ork trukks and a few koptas. Take a unit of dark reapers and they'll easily deal with the koptas. Scatterlaser jetbikes or dire avengers would deal with the few small units of boyz. These units would easily win on maelstorm points as well.

With Chaos Marines I would have a harder time, but not impossible. Deep striking terminators and obliterators with melta/plasma would do well against the super heavy and knight, with again, little fear of reprisal. Combine these with further fire support from havoc squads with lascannons, chaos bikers wielding melta/plasma. Take these guys with marks of nurgle and they would do well against the remaining ork boyz as well. Just taking a single combined armed detachment I could take up to 9 obliterators, which is only 2/3 of the points that the tank and knight are. Again they will strike first when deepstriking. Fill the rest of the points with nurgle bikers, nurgle marines, add a sorcerer for some psychic support and it would work nicely. Hold stuff in reserve and keep the rest of the army that started on the board well away from the knight and super heavy and sit and wait for the obliterators to show up.

Would I have to tailor the list? Only in that it would need to be a list tailored to play against someone playing knights and super heavies. I don't typically play tournament level where one would expect these units. A tournament player would have no issue dealing with using their typical list, as they expect to face knights and the like in today's scene. There would be zero chance that any of my casual lists would have much of a chance against this list, but my casual lists do not play against super heavies and knights. It kind of defeats the purpose of being casual. The eldar list is further away from my normal casual list, but my chaos list would not be far off.

What would be most challenging? The super heavy tank and knight, but they can be easily countered with non-super heavy/non-knight options when they don't have complimentary supporting units.

How would I rate myself? That's a tough one. With Cavalier, Wyddr, and Killersquid rating themselves a 7 in your previous posts, I'd have to give myself a 4 or 5. I've been playing since rogue trader days, but I'm not one for the tournament scene and have never played competitively.

I would absolutely love to work on tweaking this list with you and point out the strengths and weaknesses, to help see if we could develop either a better casual list or a better tournament list. Right now I see the making of two great lists that have been torn in two and combined to make a list that just doesn't seem to mesh with each other. Let me know if you want to go down that route. You have an interesting concept with allying with a renegade knight that I've been toying with myself conceptually for a while.

Offline Akaitsuki

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Re: 1850 - Orks - Rate my list
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2017, 04:37:20 AM »
That was an amazing indepth response sir I am impressed with the breakdown.

While pulling out the models from my stash to pack up and get 'em ready to hit the table this week I made a last minute change to the list. Dropping a unit of boyz in trukk for a unit of 5 warbikers (including nob with PK) at the same point cost. Made the change cuz I suddenly felt like fielding my warbikers and needed points to do so.

A couple mins after making that change I found my Grukk model and said "damn this guy looks so much cooler than the standard warboss" and came up with a new list to run on my second game of the day the list would be as follows:

1850 Pts - Codex: Orks Roster - Orks - Combined Arms 2

: Combined Arms Detachment (68#, 1525 pts)
   1 Warboss, 105 pts (Bosspole; Power Klaw; Kombi Weapon with Rokkit Launcha; Warlord)
      1 Da Finkin' Kap

   10 Tankbustas, 130 pts

   9 Boyz, 125 pts (Slugga)
      1 Boss Nob (Power Klaw)
      1 Trukk

   9 Boyz, 125 pts (Slugga)
      1 Boss Nob (Power Klaw)
      1 Trukk

   2 Deffkoptas, 110 pts (Twin-linked Rokkit Launcha x2; Buzzsaw x2)

   2 Deffkoptas, 110 pts (Twin-linked Rokkit Launcha x2; Buzzsaw x2)

   15 Lootas, 210 pts
   15 Lootas, 210 pts

   1 Kill Bursta (IA), 400 pts (Bursta Kannon)

: Renegade Knight (1#, 325 pts)
   1 Renegade Knight [RKn], 325 pts

Total Roster Cost: 1850

I wanted to use throw down with one of my favorite ork units LOOTAS and the new warboss. Coming up with new lists to play is one of the most fun aspects of 40k for me. So sure feel free to throw some ideas, while these lists are unlike to be changed as they are something I want to play and i'm not necessarily looking to maximize their competitive rather i'm looking to play stuff I want to field even if I know that there are better options (yes I have my super heavies but i'm also running deff dreads which everyone knows are NOT competitive at all)

Here is a listing of what I have in my inventory, if you are going to suggest a list to run I think starting with what i got is the best idea. Check here:

Inventory - Orks 03112017

3 Big Mek - Big Choppa
3 Battlewagons
1 Blitza-Bommer
1 Burner-Bommer
49 Boyz - Choppa & Slugga
18 Boyz - Shootas
6 Boyz - Big Shoota
30 Burna Boyz
3 Dakkajets
3 Deff Dreads
4 Deffkoptas - Buzzsaw; TL Rokkit Launcha
1 Kill Bursta
3 Killer Kans - Grotzooka
3 Killer Kans - Rokkit Launcha
30 Lootas
4 Boyz Nob - Bosspole; Power Klaw
3 Nobz - Power Klaw
1 Painboy
10 Tankbustas
3 Trukk
5 Warbikers
1 Biker Nob - Power Klaw
1 Warboss - Power Klaw; Shoota
1 Grukk Face-Rippa


Offline dog_of_war

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Re: 1850 - Orks - Rate my list
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2017, 09:57:00 PM »
Well, since you are committed with taking the super heavy tank and the knight, I think it would be best to build the list around protecting and supporting those two units. If you only took one, you could essentially build a standard list to complement it, but with both I feel you would need to go all in and commit the entire rest of the force to a supporting roll.

The two biggest issues we are facing is lack of target saturation and a lack of any buffering units for your two bullet magnets. Your opponent essentially has two choices to focus his attacks, the knight or the tank. Once they are taken care of the rest of the force falls flat. You need to add two or three other large threats to this list to force more decision making on your oppenents end. You also need some forces to bubble wrap your monsters and help keep enemy units out of melta, grav, and double-tap plasma range. You can do this cheaply with rings of boyz or grots or more expensive, but more durable with vehicle squadrons like kans, bikes, trukks, or battlewagons.

Since you favour lootas so much, I would recommend taking them in battlewagons, as a mobile firing platform and create a shield wall for your kill bursta. If we were able to open up more points by losing the knight, I'd setup all 3 battlewagons with 10 lootas each in them and surround the kill bursta. Even if you move and snap shot the lootas, you're only down one less BS. What we can do to give further cover at a minimal point cost is take some trukks as dedicated transports, but leave them unoccupied and serve as a rear shield for the kill bursta. These also retain objective secured, as they are dedicated transports for troop choices. They can zip around gaining some last minute maelstorm points, if needed near the end game.

Several boyz mobs surrounding the knight will keep enemy shooting at bay for any close range melta/grav/plasma and create a nice tarpit to keep the knight out of close combat. Usually I take mobs of 20-30 boyz, but I'd suggest taking smaller units to allow us to take multiple CADs and to help prevent your opponent from kiting your large mobs away from bubble-wrapping the knight. I prefer using cheaper grots, but you don't have the models, so boyz would do.

Buzzsaw deffkoptas are the bees knees, but I might suggest taking them as a single model unit. More than one make for a bigger target from the enemy, but singles usually slip under the raider. With lootas in battlewagons and the super heavy and knight, your opponent won't be paying them much attention and they can start causing havoc in the back field. I highly recommend turboboosting up the side of the table under cover or outflanking these.

Here's a list that would reflect those pointers above with the models you have available.

CAD 1 (580)

Big Mek w/ Big Choppa

Slugga Boyz x10
Slugga Boyz x10

Trukk (dedicated transport, kept unoccupied)
Trukk (dedicated transport, kept unoccupied)

Deffkopta w/buzzsaw
Deffkopta w/buzzsaw

Lootas x10
Battlewagon

CAD 2 (545)

Big Mek

Slugga Boyz x10
Slugga Boyz x10

Trukk (dedicated transport, kept unoccupied)

Deffkopta w/buzzsaw
Deffkopta w/buzzsaw

Lootas x10
Battlewagon

Kill Bursta w/ Bursta Kannon

Renegade Knight

Total 1850

Offline Akaitsuki

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Re: 1850 - Orks - Rate my list
« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2017, 11:51:59 PM »
That's an interesting concept but I'm seeing 2 flaws that i want to address tactic wise.

#1 - This is a melee knight he has no guns why bubble wrap when you want this thing assaulting? He's built to bring the D in melee

#2 - The shield wall of armor for the Kill Bursta I imagine that it's mean to cover the side and rear arcs only correct? Otherwise i feel like you are preventing it from launching attacks or granting cover saves where you could've potentially had a clear shot. Also isn't that a huuuuuge investment on the kill bursta? battlewagons, lootas and truuks amount to a lot of points holed up in one area.

#3 - I have the knight in bost lists because it's my brand new toy (haven't tried it out yet) the kill bursta i have played dozens of times with my orks and never lost a game when using it in competitive pick up games. Even against other super heavies this thing is very resilient and shoots very well the massive blast usually means it hardly ever misses something is always hit unless you roll that dreaded 1 on the damage table.

Offline dog_of_war

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Re: 1850 - Orks - Rate my list
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2017, 08:21:02 AM »
Quickly, to answer your concerns.

#1 The bubble wrap will not prevent it from assaulting normally. The orks will move just as easily with the knight and be able to keep up with it and maintaining formation. It will however prevent deepstriking units from using some of the more serious high strength AP weapons against it. They also prevent your opponent from assaulting the knight, allowing you to initiate the assault. When you're facing knight versus knight, having the charge will really be of benefit. The orks boys can also be used to assault first to absorb overwatch.

#2 the battlewagons are to give the kill bursta a cover save. Friendly units cannot grant your opponent cover saves. They are to protect front and side. If you are concerned about rear attacks ie against a mostly deepstriking army, you can position the behind the kill bursta facing backwards. You were also originally investing a huge amount of points in the lootas and had them stationary in the back field while the rest of the army was highly mobile. Making them easy pickings for most opponents.

Everything truly hinges on what your meta is at your local game store. I agree that these are huge investments in protecting two units, but when your spending close to half your points on two models, you're relying on them to win games for you and the rest of your models should be setup to support them. A few boyz in trukks and some koptas don't support an assault knight and a super heavy tank.

So the question that should have been asked is; what are you likely to face. If your opponents are not taking lists that you would normally see like Cavalier, Ibushi, or Killersquid take or even fight against in their batreps, then it may be a moot point to help optimize this list. Their lists are designed to be optimized in an environment where super heavies and knights exist. Their lists would quickly engage your vital units with some pretty overwhelming firepower, leaving the rest of your army to be easily picked apart.

I could easily see the kill bursta and knight win you games in very casual play because they are apocalypse level units being used in a casual game. If your opponent is not prepared to face them, then they will not have a solution for them. In tournament level play however, they would be very underwhelming, as they are not supported by the rest of the army.


Offline Akaitsuki

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Re: 1850 - Orks - Rate my list
« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2017, 04:14:27 PM »
Ok let's start with what i typically face.

Space Marines (Iron Hands, Raven Guard, Ultramarines)

All the cheesiest formations for them with lots of grav or flamers depending on the game.
Cheese formations I usually face
Gladius (free drop pods and rhinos everywhere)
Fist of Medusa (2+ feel no pain. Before FAQ this was a 1+ unfailable fnp)
Skyhammer Annihilation (this one in particular...i really love to hate)
That ravenguard formation i dunno the name but it lest units ignore cover.
Space Marine Flyer formations (these i struggle against all the time)

Imperial Knight Errant or Gerantius

Imperial Guard heavy infantry and recently also leaf blower with tons of barrage/ordnance

Baneblade Shadowsword

I basically face a lot of imperium no xenos unless i go out of my group or the 1 tau player decides he wants to game but this is once in a blue moon.


Now then moving onto the suggestions you made, i'm not trying to knock your advice, I personally WANT people to find the flaws in my gameplan so that in case i don't see them i can become aware of them and plan a counter-measure. Guess i am very much an Ultramarine at heart lol

Thusly I look at your game plan and see some flaws and wish to clarify because If i do decide to run this list you suggested down the line I would like to have a solid grasp on how it's meant to work.

The breakdown you gave just now helps me understand it a lot better. Tho i still don't think the orks can keep pace with the knight. I mean the knight moves 12" per turn even with a run the orks will always be behind unless I purposely slowdown the knight and if i do that then it's essentially a waste of a melee knight if it only hits melee turn 3 or 4 depending on how clever the opponent is at keeping his distance. I see the value in preventing alpha strikes by surrounding the knight with bodies turn 1, but there after I think it's a flawed plan to try to keep pace.

Friendly units DO grant cover saves. I've been playing this game since 4th edition which is a problem at times because I have a ton of rules jumbled up in my head after so many editions of 40k. But as far as I am aware intervening models have always granted cover saves.

The ONLY exception to this rule is if the models belong to your SAME unit. Meaning if I have a tactical squad with a marine equipped with missile launcher. The models in his unit count as not being there for the purpose of line of sight/cover saves. BUT if there is a second tactical squad infront of them this is now considered an intervening unit (even though it is from the same detachment/army/what have you and WILL grant cover save if it blocks line of sight or if you shoot inbetween the gaps of a unit that is not your own.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe this has held true for many editions.

Thus the battlewagons would grant cover saves if they are blocking my LOS from the Bursta Kannon.

I used to do batreps too but they are too time consuming so i've given that up. Once again I am not attacking your ideas, I wish to clarify and make sure the tactic is sound and well understood. Can't say I've participated in many tournaments but I do like to think I play competitive pick up games or themed games.

In all truthfulness i am way more into themed armies (competitiveness could vary greatly) but when you have to face imperial knights in EVERY game or have to face a 1+ feel no pain that CANNOT BE FAILED (pre-FAQ) that's when I bought my Kill Bursta and The Knight Household (3 knights) and give 'em a taste of their own medicine lol

For the record i play and have a substancial force (over 3000 pts) of almost every faction (theres so many coming every day its impossible to catch em all, 40k is like pokemon nowadays). I say this to bring up that one time I made this list i was so very excited to play with my imperial guard the theme was flamers how many guardsmen with flamers that i own could i squeeze into a list and bam 15 flamers mechanized company was the result. On that very day was the first time my friend tried out his Fist of Medusa 1+ feel no pain captain smashface accompanied by a flyer formation.

My entire army went down so quickly i conceded on turn 3. When I built that list it didnt even cross my mind that there would be things I had no chance of damaging (can't burn flyers, can't burn through 1+ fnp either) my whole gameplan went up in flames ironically. Thus i want comments that can help me spot those glaring weaknesses so i can prep for them beforehand at the very least not be caught with my pants down.



Offline dog_of_war

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Re: 1850 - Orks - Rate my list
« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2017, 10:46:02 PM »
Sorry, I misspoke my meaning and misquoted the rule in the same thought there. Yes friendly intervening units give your opponent's units cover saves, if they are partially obscured. You're absolutely correct there. What I meant was that the battle wagons won't likely obscure the line of sight of the kill bursta and give your opponent a cover save. The line of sight is measured by the barrel of the gun. Being slightly taller than a battlewagon and with proper positioning, the kill bursta should have a clear shot. That's truly subjective though and it all depends how you position the models, what is the size and distance of your target, and even how you've modeled your kill bursta and battlewagons. Having never seen one in person, I'm assuming its the size of a baneblade and I've witnessed baneblades firing over landraiders, which gave the target no cover save. I was trying to translate that analogy into this situation. Again, purely theoretical, as I've never used or witnessed the use of the model. Sorry for the confusing rule quote. I must have had too much wine that night. Conversely, the battlewagons should grant a cover save to the kill bursta, obscuring at least 25% of the model. They would serve well as rear guard too, as you suggested.

Thank you for the update on your gaming group and what you are most likely to face. I'm not seeing any eldar or their dark brothers there, so you're most likely not as afraid of being outmaneuvered, as I originally thought.

I'm a huge ork walker fan, rocking tons of dreads and kans myself, so I would very much love to see your first list in action. I do think in your environment you would do well with that list.

The only tweaks I would personally make is to run the deffkoptas as individuals. The tank bustas also seem out of place foot-slogging. Give 'em a trukk. Rokkits are deemed assault weapons and you can move and shoot them, even if you have to snapshot when they're really moving. If you drop to three individual deffkoptas that would give you the points for a trukk.
Just a thought.

Too bad you don't do battle reports anymore. I'd love to see some of your units in action against the types of lists you've identified.

Offline Akaitsuki

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Re: 1850 - Orks - Rate my list
« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2017, 01:55:23 AM »
The kill bursta is a transport. Tankbustas and warboss go inside when close enough they can disembark shoot and assault as needed (counts as open topped when disembarking or embarking)

Offline dog_of_war

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Re: 1850 - Orks - Rate my list
« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2017, 07:33:07 AM »
Thank you for the clarification. The tank bustas make a lot more sense now. Lootas would work well in their place too, but you'd have to lose dread to make them fit in your CAD. Let us know how you make out with your list.

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Re: 1850 - Orks - Rate my list
« Reply #10 on: April 4, 2017, 03:08:16 PM »
I love to use my looted baneblade erm, I mean Skullhamma in larger games. Take a second FOC with big mek, grot oilers, and KFF, with a unit of 5 burna boys (of which three are meks) and this essentially means you have a 3+ "will not die" unit. Plus if assaulted the two burnas can overwatch and usually kill enough to diminish any damage that might have been caused.

Since I run speed freaks instead of kan wall, I love the Skullhamma as everything the enemy has seems to target the big tank rather than my truckloads of boys. Good fun as I get to krump my enemies, see them flee before me, and hear the lamentations of their players. Good Stuff!

As for your list, try the big mek load out as listed above for riding in your kill bursta, makes it really hard to kill.
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Offline Akaitsuki

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Re: 1850 - Orks - Rate my list
« Reply #11 on: April 8, 2017, 02:31:11 AM »
I finally got a chance to play this list on Thrusday. Brought my orks, world eaters and grey knights out to play a game of each. Much fun was had, I went home 2-1 with only the Grey Knights taking a major L (nearly tabled) after Guilliman be-atched out from a fight with Kaldor Draigo.

Regarding the Ork list i posted. I faced off against the flavor of the month Ultramarines. My opponent had no clue what I was bringing on the field his Smurfs had the primarch of course and a lot of grav weaponry accompanied by thunderfire cannons and some flyers. This was a CAD and my opponent had first turn.

My deffkoptas scouted forward and then i seized the initiative on my opponent. AWESOME! I got first strike in but failed to get first blood However the Kill Bursta put 3 wounds on Guilliman and took some chunks out of the marines sitting on 3+ cover ruins thanks to the techmarine.

My opponent promptly killed one of my units of deffkoptas after dedicating a LOT of firepower on them (2 models so much harder to get rid of)

Turn 2 I got my knight into assault with a small unit of tacticals he didnt kill them off but his stomps took out an entire thunderfire cannon on a 6 (lucky!) My other unit of deffkoptas had turbo-boosted behind the second thunderfirecannon and shot it down including the techmarine whom rolled that lovely 1 and got instant-gibbed. I got some assaults off while the opponent's army was distracted trying to get rid of the bigger threats. Including the Ironclad Dreadnought that drop-down on turn 1 trying to sneak attack the Kill Bursta, found that it wasn't as unguarded as he thought.

Guilliman....came in on the opponents turn and mulched the knight with such ease that I felt bad for the guy's very short lived tenure as big problem #2.

Turn 3 was great for the Orks, The Kill Bursta got sweet revenge for the Knight and tore guilliman a new one. At this point i was dominating the entire game thunderfire cannons were gone, guilliman was gone, the ironclad threat to the kill bursta was gone, and the marines left had their vehicles destroyed their occupants blasted or engaged in assaults. Opponent conceded on top of turn 4 after realizing his airborne units coudlnt do much to help either

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Re: 1850 - Orks - Rate my list
« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2017, 11:15:04 AM »
Good stuff so far, finish the battle report and there will be teef in it for you.  ;)
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Quote from: angel of death 007
Skeetergod: (adj) A crazy fascination for all things combustible mixed with an unhealty lust for red paint. see also Speed Freak

 


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