Topic: What you'd like to see stay/go/change for Eldar in 8th & Eldar News

[Irisado]

As Rummy says if elite troops are bolstered because standard troops have been given higher stats than they ought to have been, where it the line drawn?  It sets a precedent for continued statistical inflation and the cycle is never broken.  The change from a WS and BS values gives GW the chance to break that cycle and I hope that they take it.

If a system other than the D6 system were used, perhaps it would be possible to differentiate Guardians from Guardsmen, but I would still not be overly keen on that.  In view of the limitations of the D6 system though, having a clear distinction between Guardians and Eldar elite troops is essential and the way that makes the most sense is in terms of their shooting and close combat skill, as had previously been the case.

[Lord of Winter and War]

Well, all the codex's are being scrapped and the game is being refreshed. About time too with the codex creep we've seen.

I'm going to guess that 5" is going to be the average speed for humans, and 6" for marines and eldar.

A few things will be slower, a few things will be faster. Based on the warscrolls on Age of Sigmar, infantry speeds are between 4-6" 8" + is for calvary and beasts. I'm going to predict It'll be very, very rare to see foot infantry higher then 6" move.

If a system other than the D6 system were used, perhaps it would be possible to differentiate Guardians from Guardsmen, but I would still not be overly keen on that.  In view of the limitations of the D6 system though, having a clear distinction between Guardians and Eldar elite troops is essential and the way that makes the most sense is in terms of their shooting and close combat skill, as had previously been the case.

We will not see anything other then D6 and D3.

I've played games with D20's and D10's and such, those dice to not fit 40k's gameplay at all. 40k is not a game which needs more granularity.

The only games which D10's and D20's work in, is small skirmish games. Like Infinity and Frostgrave, where face-to-face rolls are used.

[magenb]

The background emphasises the civilian nature of Eldar Guardians.  The fact that ordinary citizens were as good as a fully trained professional soldier, i.e. an Imperial Guardsman, meant that their previous stats were more representative than is the case now.  Either way, I would be astonished if Guardians end up with the same to hit values as Aspect Warriors in the forthcoming edition.

Yes, but unlike human's, Eldar have long lives and their "Civilians" are basically any one not on an Aspect/seer path. Given the Curse of Khaine, it would appear as though they need to go through the training at least once in their life time.

Additionally even the most basically "trained" Eldar such as rangers/corsairs even street gang thugs get the higher stat line. So even with limited training they can be Super human.

You also have the problem of different craftworlds, Ulthwe Malitia is probably more "experienced" than other craftworld guardians, then again War faction like Beil tan are probably better trained.

Then there is the point cost. Guardian have always had a high cost when compared to similar units from other races. Eldar shouldn't be able to do a Horde, like IG can, so a higher stat line some what justifies the higher point cost and keeping with a lower model count, which is keeping with the fluff of a dying race.

[The GrimSqueaker]

Additionally even the most basically "trained" Eldar such as rangers/corsairs even street gang thugs get the higher stat line.

That's the thing. The most basically trained Eldar were considered at the very least equals of professional human soldiers. They were already elevated from the norm. They weren't treated as human. They were already better. But it's never enough as we always see.

[Fenris]

With giving Guardians M8 I was thinking, eldar should be faster than marines, and the marine stat has been revealed. Then I moved on to thinking eldar are much more agile than spacemarines, no matter how many hinges the power armour has, an eldar would still be more agile and with no initiative value to repressent it, I think a further boost in movement is required.
In addition to this battle focus need to go, an extra movement phase does not work with either the time it consumes nor the new advance (run in the movement phase) mechanics.

Then we should be using the granularity of the new movement stat, so I think aspects with 3+ save (and no extra movement gadgets) should have M7, which is still faster than a marine.
Wraithguards/blades would then be M6 like marines.

Also since normal infantry seems to move around 6" as before I bet bikes will be moving 12" or more, considering turboboost is gone 18" is quite likely.
Gunvehicles should move faster than infantry and walkers, then transports should be slightly faster, but bikes still being faster and then flyers fastest, so bikes will need to go fast to have some granularity to play with for the vehicles.

Leman russ may become M9, while a fireprism is M11.
Chimera may be M12, while a wave serpent might get M14(rough riders M13?).
Bikes having M15 and jetbikes M18 does not sound too far fetched for me.
Flyers could then be M12-24" as a guidepost.

[Katamari Damacy]

This game has always been balanced around Marines and with that in mind....

Movement: Marines 6", Terminators 5". This could either mean that most human Infantry models will get 6" thus making Terminators appear a bit slower OR they could be 5" in which case the Power Armor Marine would stand out a bit more. Either way, it will be interesting to see how that translates for Eldar. Back in 2nd Edition, Marines were 4" while most Eldar infantry had 5".

I'm guessing that it could be something like the following....:
- Guardians, Rangers, Avengers, Dragons, Scorpions = 6"
- Banshees = 7" or 8"
- Dark Reapers, Wraithguard = 5"
- Hawks, Spiders = 12"

...and that's not including special rules and other shenanigans 

Regarding the new statlines: I just don't see a Guardian (or Storm Guardian) hit on 3+ in CC. That would effectively make them WS5 with the current rules. Shooting is a different story and depending on how modifiers will be applied here, I might see them hit on 3+. I'm guessing that not even all Aspects will hit on 3+ in CC (certainly not the shooty Aspects). I would also guess that Eldar vehicles will be 3+ for shooting, regardless of Guardian statlines.
 

[Irisado]

We will not see anything other then D6 and D3.

I agree, however, that will not stop me from pointing out the inherent flaws in relying on a D6 system.

I've played games with D20's and D10's and such, those dice to not fit 40k's gameplay at all. 40k is not a game which needs more granularity.

I've played games with D20s, D10s, and D12s, ranging from Advanced Heroquest, to role-play games, and, of course, second edition (which made use of a whole bunch of those dice for the crazy armour penetration vehicle rules it used to have).  Introducing a different dice system does not, by default, increase granularity to the extent to which you're implying.  However, it's not going to happen, so I'll say no more about it.

Yes, but unlike human's, Eldar have long lives and their "Civilians" are basically any one not on an Aspect/seer path. Given the Curse of Khaine, it would appear as though they need to go through the training at least once in their life time.

Additionally even the most basically "trained" Eldar such as rangers/corsairs even street gang thugs get the higher stat line. So even with limited training they can be Super human.

You also have the problem of different craftworlds, Ulthwe Malitia is probably more "experienced" than other craftworld guardians, then again War faction like Beil tan are probably better trained.

Then there is the point cost. Guardian have always had a high cost when compared to similar units from other races. Eldar shouldn't be able to do a Horde, like IG can, so a higher stat line some what justifies the higher point cost and keeping with a lower model count, which is keeping with the fluff of a dying race.

The crucial point is that they remain citizens, regardless of any training, and they do not regularly hone their skills.  As a result, to remain as skilled as a Guardsmen is exceptional.  Combine this with the level of technology which they have access to, such as the Shuriken Catapult, which is a better weapon than a Lasgun, and an assortment of powerful heavy weapon platforms, and it becomes clear that there was already enough of an exception made for Guardians in previous editions without needing the boost which they received.

'Super human' also stretches the narrative somewhat.  I cannot recall Guardians being described as super human anywhere.  That kind of description applies to Phoenix Lords not regular Eldar units.

[Aoitora]

I was a bit shocked seeing how far power armoured marines can move. It was 4" back in the day. When I first heard movement rate was coming back in I thought it'd be something along the lines of "lesser species" (IG/Tau/Ork/Crons) 4", marines 5", Eldar 6" and fast nids like genestealers 7".

Going off the stats GW has released I don't think everyone would get bumped up a notch. sadly I think Eldar will get rolled in at 6" and despite being renowned to be fast by marine standards will move at the same speed. I would be super happy if our light aspects became 7" and our heavy aspects became 6". Since our heavy aspects gained fleet a few editions ago there's no distinction in regards to movement. They might as well just all being wearing heavy aspect armour.

I also think the increased stats on guardians was unwarranted and I wouldnt mind seeing it drop but only because it really detracts from the aspects. I recall one of the first games with the 6th ed codex I charged a unit of avengers into a unit of guardians. I was expecting to have all the advantages (WS, I, Sv & Ld). I was quite surprised to find them the equal in speed and skill as my warriors.
Guardians still had a better stat-line than guardsman or firewarriors (both of which are considered to be highly trained soldiers) before getting increased WS/BS/I.
In saying all this marine scouts have also received an increase to WS/BS and I cant imagine GW taking that back so I think Guardians will stay the same. A D10 system would make me happy. Then all these units that are 'better than this but not as good as that' would sit nicer on a wider scale.

It's interesting that so far the thing that divides most people are formations.

[Partninja]

As Rummy says if elite troops are bolstered because standard troops have been given higher stats than they ought to have been, where it the line drawn?  It sets a precedent for continued statistical inflation and the cycle is never broken.  The change from a WS and BS values gives GW the chance to break that cycle and I hope that they take it.

If a system other than the D6 system were used, perhaps it would be possible to differentiate Guardians from Guardsmen, but I would still not be overly keen on that.  In view of the limitations of the D6 system though, having a clear distinction between Guardians and Eldar elite troops is essential and the way that makes the most sense is in terms of their shooting and close combat skill, as had previously been the case.

If it wasn't clear, my thought was to move storm/defenders back to their old statline. Allow black guardians to have the current better statline. Aspects, would have a statline for their aspect (only WS or BS) similar to the bonus from the aspect host formation. I didn't mean to imply keeping guardians at current stat, and make aspects better on top.

This is based purely, but obviously biased, from a game play point of view and not a fluff one. Based around marines, Eldar Aspects should have the extra WS or BS to help put emphasis on their more agile and specialty nature (compared to a marine). A bog standard Guardian should be "weaker". This is coming from someone who plays both CWE and Blood Angels.

Just spit-balling - I'm going to have to play whatever rules they land on either way.

[Lord of Winter and War]

I'm more curious how the points will change then the stats. I hope we see games with a smaller model count. I'd love marines to be 20pts each, and theb other things based off that.

[Determinator]

I want to not have any units which are ridiculously good. I really like warp spiders for example but I feel bad for being too competitive every time I take them.

[Katamari Damacy]

There's nothing wrong with taking powerful units. No one should blame you for playing them.

Then again, there's a difference between fielding 3x5 Spiders and 1x8 Spiders. People wont cry out loud for fielding some Scatter Bikes either but if you're fielding 3x6 Bikes with 18 Scatter Lasers, that's another thing.

But I agree with what you're saying.

[Partninja]

With the releases of Leman Russ and Gorka/Morkas being T8, it makes me really curious to see what happens with our T8 monsters.

I'm also very curious to see what happens with shuriken weapons compared to the new bolter stat. With the SvT changes, I'm hoping at least the heavy shuriken weapons have a better armor penetration (maybe some even getting a strength change like the star cannons). Since everything wounds on at least a 6+ now, I expect blade storm to change. Maybe move back to an extra shot for everyone, not just Avengers, or just providing a more consistent better armor piercing value.

[Fenris]

Since lasguns just became Rapid Fire 2, when in range of a herder, without any test.
I don't think shuriken catapults will be any less than: same strength, Assault 3, 18" AP -1, d1.
Otherwise a guardsman would have to cost more points than a guardian.

[Dralith]

As ever I'd like to see the two varieties of shuricat rolled back into one with a decent range (I must say I was surprised to see they've kept that distinction in Shadow War).

IG orders becoming command benefits looks quite strong, but we don't know what kind of goodies our guys will be able to dole out. Maybe with the streamlined magic system some warlock powers will go back to being native perks again.

[magenb]

The crucial point is that they remain citizens, regardless of any training, and they do not regularly hone their skills.  As a result, to remain as skilled as a Guardsmen is exceptional.  Combine this with the level of technology which they have access to, such as the Shuriken Catapult, which is a better weapon than a Lasgun, and an assortment of powerful heavy weapon platforms, and it becomes clear that there was already enough of an exception made for Guardians in previous editions without needing the boost which they received.

'Super human' also stretches the narrative somewhat.  I cannot recall Guardians being described as super human anywhere.  That kind of description applies to Phoenix Lords not regular Eldar units.

I wouldn't say a shuriken catapult is THAT much better than a lasgun, sure, it hits harder, but shorter range, AND IG can fire it up to 4 times under orders. An IG Guardsman is almost half the points of a CWE Guardian, the wargear, I and Ld does not account for the point differences. You can take 18 IG for the cost of a base (10) Guardian unit and IG will win that firefight.




The original White dwarf describes the process of the Eldar path system, where one path does not replace the other. The Skills accumulate. Further on it talks about how Eldar will continue using skills from other paths they have learned.In one section it goes into how important it is to do that while they are on an Aspect path

There is no one line Eldar are 'super human', however there are numerous references to how elder are superior to Humans, emotionally, intellectually and physically (agility etc). Their arrogance doesn't come from just having great tech.

Then there are other factors, like why a civilian would be piloting, transports, light tanks, heavy tanks, superheavy tanks, even their air force were militia until recently.


While the fluff for IG might be Exceptionally well trained they have a 50% chance to hit the broad side of a titan... clearly GW went with horde based cannon fodder part of their fluff.

[Irisado]

I wouldn't say a shuriken catapult is THAT much better than a lasgun, sure, it hits harder, but shorter range, AND IG can fire it up to 4 times under orders. An IG Guardsman is almost half the points of a CWE Guardian, the wargear, I and Ld does not account for the point differences. You can take 18 IG for the cost of a base (10) Guardian unit and IG will win that firefight.

Eldar Guardians can be augmented by other means, such as Warlocks, and the wargear, initiative, and leadership is enough to justify the points difference.  Either way, the rules are changing, so the discussion about points costs and battlefield performance is moot.

The original White dwarf describes the process of the Eldar path system, where one path does not replace the other. The Skills accumulate. Further on it talks about how Eldar will continue using skills from other paths they have learned.In one section it goes into how important it is to do that while they are on an Aspect path

Yet, it remains true that Guardians are civilians who do not train on any regular basis.  Any skills they have acquired are, therefore, not continually used, and this was always reflected in their original statistics.

White Dwarf 127 does not, at any stage, highlight that Guardians are professional soldiers who are constantly following the Path of the Warrior.  Therefore, for them to match Imperial Guardsmen in terms of their statistics makes much more sense than for their statistics to exceed professional soldiers. 

There is no one line Eldar are 'super human', however there are numerous references to how elder are superior to Humans, emotionally, intellectually and physically (agility etc). Their arrogance doesn't come from just having great tech.

The fact is that there is no reference to Eldar being super human.  The references to superiority are not the same at all, as you've just aptly demonstrated.

Then there are other factors, like why a civilian would be piloting, transports, light tanks, heavy tanks, superheavy tanks, even their air force were militia until recently.

Because there are insufficient Aspect Warriors to pilot Craftworld vehicles.  The Eldar are a dying race remember.  Also, it's plausible for Guardians to be trained in piloting Eldar vehicles.  The vast array of technology at the disposal of the Eldar arguably makes it easier for them to fulfil this role than a front line battlefield role on foot.  As a result, this is consistent with the civilian/reservist narrative that GW devised for Guardians.

As ever I'd like to see the two varieties of shuricat rolled back into one with a decent range (I must say I was surprised to see they've kept that distinction in Shadow War).

The distinction will stay.  Units will have their own Age of Sigmar style data sheet, and Dire Avengers are, therefore, going to keep their own version of the weapon in my opinion.

[magenb]

Eldar Guardians can be augmented by other means, such as Warlocks, and the wargear, initiative, and leadership is enough to justify the points difference.  Either way, the rules are changing, so the discussion about points costs and battlefield performance is moot.

IG can be augmented by other means, such as commissars.. but those are null points as you can apply buffs even outside of the unit itself, you don't add additional points to the base because it can be buffed, you apply those points to the item giving the buff. Base vs base 90points of IG vs 90 CWE Guardians. Math hammer/play test it out, the upgrade in stat-line is need to balance it out.

Yet, it remains true that Guardians are civilians who do not train on any regular basis.  Any skills they have acquired are, therefore, not continually used, and this was always reflected in their original statistics.

Where does it state their training regime? Once a month every fortnight, once a year. Do they train as often as Aspect warriors, well no . The fluff does tell us that even while on the warrior path they "...deliberately continues to pursue the arts of peace..." it goes on into more detail describing the various peace fields. Perhaps the time ratio of warrior vs peace is inverted in civilian life.

Use it or lose it. Yes, Human's suffer from this. Yes, there is some indication that Eldar do continue to practise their skill sets after leaving a path, but it also shows their skill sets accumulate over a very long life span. It is not a great leap to think the Eldar would not loose their skills as quickly as humans do, if you accept that, then it is also not a great leap, that they would require less time to be spent on maintaining that skill set.

White Dwarf 127 does not, at any stage, highlight that Guardians are professional soldiers who are constantly following the Path of the Warrior.  Therefore, for them to match Imperial Guardsmen in terms of their statistics makes much more sense than for their statistics to exceed professional soldiers. 

So what is the difference between a Professional (rank and file) soldier's ability to aim vs a trained Civilian? I would be surprised if there was a statistically relevant difference.

There is no one line Eldar are 'super human', however there are numerous references to how elder are superior to Humans, emotionally, intellectually and physically (agility etc). Their arrogance doesn't come from just having great tech.

The fact is that there is no reference to Eldar being super human.  The references to superiority are not the same at all, as you've just aptly demonstrated.

What is 'super human'? Does Super Human mean Superman or merely better than human? Is a 67% accuracy rating super human? Does that mean a commissar is Super human?
If super human is merely being better than human, then technically Eldar are super human.

Then there are other factors, like why a civilian would be piloting, transports, light tanks, heavy tanks, superheavy tanks, even their air force were militia until recently.

Because there are insufficient Aspect Warriors to pilot Craftworld vehicles.  The Eldar are a dying race remember.  Also, it's plausible for Guardians to be trained in piloting Eldar vehicles.  The vast array of technology at the disposal of the Eldar arguably makes it easier for them to fulfil this role than a front line battlefield role on foot.  As a result, this is consistent with the civilian/reservist narrative that GW devised for Guardians.

You are a dying race, living in a galaxy constantly at war, you know your civilians are going to be used in battles, how much training do you give them?

You are living in a galaxy constantly at war, you know that at some point in your life you are going to have to fight, how often do you train?
 

It all really boils down to how you interpret the fluff, for me there is supporting material for it.

[The GrimSqueaker]

So what is the difference between a Professional (rank and file) soldier's ability to aim vs a trained Civilian? I would be surprised if there was a statistically relevant difference.

You do realise that question doesn't pass the laugh test? It's also rather insulting to trained professionals. It's also meaningless as if we offer any evidence you'd deride it as not being conclusive of Eldar due to their being... Eldar. Right? It's not also merely aiming, there's reacting, aiming under pressure, and being under fire yourself. Aiming is *easy* when no-one else is shooting back at you. Ask yourself this, why do we bother having standing volunteer armies rather than trained civilians? What's happened when we used conscripts or here-to-go limited trainees? What lessons did we learn?

Marines are superhuman. Do you compare Guardians to Marines? We're saying Guardians are as good as trained human professionals with the experience along with it. They're not conscripts or ordinary civilians. They can stand toe to toe with humanity's front line.

It all really boils down to how you interpret the fluff, for me there is supporting material for it.

Yeah, no. Good luck though. 

We've honestly gone through this over and over again in times past. Check the redo thread for the past horrors and terrible arguments.

[Irisado]

IG can be augmented by other means, such as commissars.. but those are null points as you can apply buffs even outside of the unit itself, you don't add additional points to the base because it can be buffed, you apply those points to the item giving the buff. Base vs base 90points of IG vs 90 CWE Guardians. Math hammer/play test it out, the upgrade in stat-line is need to balance it out.

There's no need to test it because the rules are going to be changing.  What is true, however, is that Eldar Guardians had the same WS and BS as Guardsmen across numerous editions, and I never once found that this was a problem.  In addition, comparing units across armies in this way has always been something of a false comparison.  In this case the comparison is problematic because Guardians are a support unit, except for Ulthwé, while Imperial Guardsmen are the primary forces of the Imperial Guard.

There has never been an issue with the balance between the two units because of cost or statistics.  The problem arose in third edition when the range of the Shuriken Catapult was cut.  That was the main problem for Guardians and that was, eventually, fixed.

Where does it state their training regime? Once a month every fortnight, once a year. Do they train as often as Aspect warriors, well no . The fluff does tell us that even while on the warrior path they "...deliberately continues to pursue the arts of peace..." it goes on into more detail describing the various peace fields. Perhaps the time ratio of warrior vs peace is inverted in civilian life.

I prefer to examine what the narrative actually says, rather than what it does not say.  It makes it abundantly clear that Guardians pursue civilian roles when not on the battlefield.  This is in complete contrast to Aspect Warriors.  Civilians should not have superior WS and BS to professional soldiers.

It is not a great leap to think the Eldar would not loose their skills as quickly as humans do, if you accept that, then it is also not a great leap, that they would require less time to be spent on maintaining that skill set.

This is all speculation.  Speculative narrative cannot be used to justify in-game statistics, otherwise we'd have all sorts of crazy stat lines and a mass of balance issues.

So what is the difference between a Professional (rank and file) soldier's ability to aim vs a trained Civilian? I would be surprised if there was a statistically relevant difference.

There have been so many debates about this in the past.  You're welcome to search through them all.  Start with the Eldar wishlisting thread and the Eldar redux topics.  A brief summary, however, is that a professional soldier is always going to be more skilled and more accurate than a trained civilian.  A trained civilian is not able to match the professional skills or military discipline of someone who is in the military for a living and for their career.  Applying this argument to the Guardians versus Guardsmen debate and considering that Guardians would still have parity with Guardsmen should the WS and BS boosts be reversed, and it's evident that Guardians remain superior, as no other civilian force in the 40K universe would achieve parity.

What is 'super human'? Does Super Human mean Superman or merely better than human?

Does it really matter in this context?  As Eldar Guardians are not described as being superhuman, I don't see how it's relevant.

You are a dying race, living in a galaxy constantly at war, you know your civilians are going to be used in battles, how much training do you give them?

You are living in a galaxy constantly at war, you know that at some point in your life you are going to have to fight, how often do you train?

As the narrative says, they are civilians.  Their primary role is to keep their craftworld functioning as a living space.  The Guardians are only called upon in times of need.  For any small scale missions, most craftworlds are unlikely to send any Guardians into the fight at all.  How much training they receive is not explicitly stated, but the fact that they are civilians is, and that is the crucial point.

Guardians can pilot vehicles (much easier to do when there is such advanced technology to assist in piloting any vehicle), wield a Shuriken Catapult (a very basic weapon in terms of Eldar technology), and use basic close combat weapons.  That's about it.  That's pretty darn good for being a civilian.  Matching trained Guardsmen is just way too good and that's why the change needs to be made in the forthcoming edition.

It all really boils down to how you interpret the fluff, for me there is supporting material for it.

Having debated this point on and off since 2008, nobody has ever found any evidence in the narrative to support the argument that Guardians should have superior WS and BS to Guardsmen and to have parity with Aspect Warriors and Space Marines.  There is no material to support that argument and I very much doubt that there ever will be.