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Author Topic: What do you think of Abortion?  (Read 16357 times)

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Offline TheOnlySpiral

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Re: What do you think of Abortion?
« Reply #40 on: June 15, 2005, 02:20:21 PM »
however, consciousness is what we should value, not life.
Life is just meat, consciousness is what makes it worth anything.
Do you mean awareness? I think that is what you are trying to conve which is why I belive abortion should be illegal after the thirdmonth... when the baby becomes aware it becomes wrong to kill it IMHO. However I am still prochoice.  I am not going to get up in arms if a woman gets her fetus sucked out...it isn't my body and not my place to judge.

@Carbine: Jail is a place where people with incorrect behavior, that are a drain on society go to be reducated and readjusted.  People that have a ton of abortions because they are careless are detimental to society and a drain on resources. 
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Offline Col. Or'es'o (retired)

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Re: What do you think of Abortion?
« Reply #41 on: June 15, 2005, 02:31:31 PM »
Do you mean awareness? I think that is what you are trying to conve which is why I belive abortion should be illegal after the thirdmonth... when the baby becomes aware it becomes wrong to kill it IMHO. However I am still prochoice.  I am not going to get up in arms if a woman gets her fetus sucked out...it isn't my body and not my place to judge.
Call it what you like, but it appears we are talking about the same thing.
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Offline TheOnlySpiral

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Re: What do you think of Abortion?
« Reply #42 on: June 15, 2005, 02:34:16 PM »
Ok then.  If awareness is what we are after it is almost impossible to prove that it exists before month 3, although if you work really hard you can try.  If our determining factor is awareness, early abortion is perfectly allright non?
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Offline Col. Or'es'o (retired)

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Re: What do you think of Abortion?
« Reply #43 on: June 15, 2005, 03:24:25 PM »
sure thing, and on brain dead people who arent coming back, and people with no sensory perception at all.
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Offline Decius

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Re: What do you think of Abortion?
« Reply #44 on: June 15, 2005, 04:28:29 PM »
I think abortion should be illegal, why don't they just have the baby then put it up for adoption?

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Re: What do you think of Abortion?
« Reply #45 on: June 15, 2005, 04:43:12 PM »
because bringing the baby to term may endanger the life of the mother. because the adoption system is unreliable, expensive, corrupt, or otherwise unusable. because adoption itself is unlikely and orphans are unlikely to live decent lives. because the parents do not want to face giving away their child any more then they want to have one at all. because pregnancy itself is a heavy burden that may ruin the mothers career or the parents lives altogether due to social stigma (pregnancy out of wedlock for instance). because there is reason to believe the baby will have a severely debilitating medical condition. because its easier. because mothers are not answerable to you.
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Offline Full Metal Geneticist

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Re: What do you think of Abortion?
« Reply #46 on: June 15, 2005, 04:52:10 PM »
Its a strange fact but there are people who still dont want pregnant women and women with kids working for them.
I have seen at my place of work women with kids slowly phased out and in some cases women are hired to make sure there is equal opportunity employment when they are'nt suited for the Job. I have had a paramedic who did'nt know how to administer a tracheachtomy, intubated a patient to his stomach and was scared of blood. Why she was hired i never knew and why she was kept on when there were women with kids who were far better trained and far better paramedics.

Its one of the reasons why women have abortions and i can see the reason.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2005, 04:54:15 PM by Godofsmallthingys »


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Offline TheOnlySpiral

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Re: What do you think of Abortion?
« Reply #47 on: June 15, 2005, 08:31:55 PM »
Its a strange fact but there are people who still dont want pregnant women and women with kids working for them.

It's because women with kids will want more time off, and more money as they have a family to support.  Economically it's a good idea...makes no sense in practice however.
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Offline Captain Leonidas

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Re: What do you think of Abortion?
« Reply #48 on: June 15, 2005, 10:08:19 PM »
However, they should have some experience of the world, if not they are just potential people (without something to analyse the brain is not conscious).

Foetuses too have some experience of the world,

Again for those who have never witnessed any abortion, I suggest you watch one. So many abortions are being done when they are more than 3-4 months old, when the foetus is clearly no more than 'a blob of cells' and can react to whatever intruding mechanics intending to kill the aforementioned foetus. Sad thing really.
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Offline TheOnlySpiral

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Re: What do you think of Abortion?
« Reply #49 on: June 15, 2005, 10:43:50 PM »
Again for those who have never witnessed any abortion, I suggest you watch one. So many abortions are being done when they are more than 3-4 months old, when the foetus is clearly no more than 'a blob of cells' and can react to whatever intruding mechanics intending to kill the aforementioned foetus. Sad thing really.
3 months was the cut off I suggested in the Stem Cell thread.  Yes it is sad, but sadder is a child growing up unwanted and alone. 
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Offline Captain Hajime

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Re: What do you think of Abortion?
« Reply #50 on: June 18, 2005, 01:39:26 PM »
I am pro-life with a small p, you won't find me being one of those preaching A-holes out there say all Abortion should be illegal. I currently wouldn't if given the power to do so try and Change Canada's Abortion law unless I saw a strong shift in mood of the people.

My personal belief is that abortion is only permitable in the cases of mother's well being, the result of Rape [sexual assult], and insest. I don't buy the Women's body and i do what I want argument at all. Giving something a different name so it not a baby is stupid. i further believe that if the Father wants the baby and it is not a risk to the mother. It should come to term.

Further, I really think that Opinions other than abortion should be widely know to those women who are in this kind of trouble.

While not a part of the issue directly, I think sex Education needs to be improved on the teen level so that unwanted Pregnancies can be avoided. There nothing so silly as a teen getting knocked up because she didn't know the facts.

As a Side note, I am sort of glad they manage to invent the 'Morning after' pill, I guess it means I flexable a bit, If it still just a small collections of cell kill chemical a day or two after, it doesn't matter as much. Call me a Hypocrite if you like, it still think it better than removing something than can react and move.
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Offline TheOnlySpiral

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Re: What do you think of Abortion?
« Reply #51 on: June 18, 2005, 06:19:39 PM »
Giving something a different name so it not a baby is stupid.
When does it become a baby? What is the defining trait that makes it a seoerate entity? For me it's an independant heart beat, which happens in month three. 

i further believe that if the Father wants the baby and it is not a risk to the mother. It should come to term.
Does the father have to carry it? No.  If the Father did absolutely everything for the mother during the preganancy, and made sure she wanted for nothing then maybe.  However the father has to do nothing, while the mother has to carry it and put up with her body and the permanent changes that occur.  It's sexist and dsicriminatory to say that the father has the right to decide what happens in his partner's body.

Further, I really think that Opinions other than abortion should be widely know to those women who are in this kind of trouble.
What other options do you refer to?
« Last Edit: June 18, 2005, 08:13:53 PM by TheOnlySpiral »
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Offline Captain Hajime

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Re: What do you think of Abortion?
« Reply #52 on: June 18, 2005, 07:45:45 PM »
Giving something a different name so it not a baby is stupid.
When does it become a baby? What is the defining trait that makes it a seoerate entity? For me it's an independant heart beat, which happens in month three. 

i further believe that if the Father wants the baby and it is not a risk to the mother. It should come to term.
[/qutoe]
Does the father have to carry it? No.  If the Father did absolutely everything for the mother during the preganancy, and made sure she wanted for nothing then maybe.  However the father has to do nothing, while the mother has to carry it and put up with her body and the permanent changes that occur.  It's sexist and dsicriminatory to say that the father has the right to decide what happens in his partner's body.

Further, I really think that Opinions other than abortion should be widely know to those women who are in this kind of trouble.
What other options do you refer to?

It also discriminatory to say that the father has no rights at all in the matter. I see far too often where fathers get the wrong end of the stick because they are men.

Well Adoption dispite its faults, is still a choice. Pervention is pretty damn good idea, heading off the need for abortion, better information about the Morning after pill would be good too.

I don't really like making dividing lines, I can accept that a collection of cells is not a baby, but when it starts to look like a human kind of works for me.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2005, 12:33:39 PM by Captain Hajime »
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Offline TheOnlySpiral

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Re: What do you think of Abortion?
« Reply #53 on: June 18, 2005, 09:01:49 PM »
It also discriminatory to say that the father has no rights at all in the matter. I see far too often where fathers get the wrong end of the stick because they are men.
It is wrong to tell a woman that because her sexual partner wants her to carry the baby, that she has no choice in the matter.  Ultimately she will have to deal with the majority of the issues that come with pregnancy, the end choice should be hers.  If they're married I belive he should have a legal say, but otherwise he should have none. 

Well Adoption dispite its faults, is still a choice.
But doesn't help if they don't want to carry the baby. 

Pervention is pretty damn good idea, 
I agree.  If people just use a little prevention it would solve the whole abortion issue before it starts.
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Offline Rowing-Fiend

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Re: What do you think of Abortion?
« Reply #54 on: June 18, 2005, 09:54:57 PM »
I think that the man deffinetly should have a say in the abortion. It takes two to tango!

I he is to be held responsible, then he should also have a choice. If you are not ready for the possibility of giving birth, tough it up!!!

Beleive me, I know what pain is, my sister (TheCol.) was shot in the stomach and still agrees with this point of view (so she knows what pain is as well).
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Offline TheOnlySpiral

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Re: What do you think of Abortion?
« Reply #55 on: June 18, 2005, 10:25:35 PM »
Does he carry it? No.  Does it mess with his body? No.  He could walk out at any minuete and escape the pregnancy.  She cannot.  If she chooses not to abort it, she is stuck with the pregnancy.  The husband (and only the husband) should get a say, but otherwise it's just not a man's place. 
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Offline kharn012000

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Re: What do you think of Abortion?
« Reply #56 on: June 19, 2005, 02:31:10 AM »
And if he does he loses the right to have an input.

Personally, I am vehemently Pro-life. Rape and incest included. Even the life of an inbred orphan is better than no life at all. If the mother doesn't want it, it should be put up for adoption. The only exeption is when the mother's life is directly endangered by the pregancy.

But, because abortion is legal, I'll simply tell any women I get pregnant something along the lines of "If you abort it, I'm going to leave you, and never speak to you again. Because abortion is murder, and I don't associate with murderers."

Also, an anology. I'm pointing a gun to your head. Is it my choice to pull the trigger? Yes. Is it morally justified? Hell no.

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Re: What do you think of Abortion?
« Reply #57 on: June 19, 2005, 03:14:43 AM »
Personally, I am vehemently Pro-life. Rape and incest included. Even the life of an inbred orphan is better than no life at all.

Yes, handing someone years and years of pain and misery is awesome.  We should also create mutants to eat our garbage, and keep them locked in cages.  Their life would suck....but HEY....at least they are alive.

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Offline Captain Leonidas

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Re: What do you think of Abortion?
« Reply #58 on: June 19, 2005, 09:12:42 AM »
Yes it is sad, but sadder is a child growing up unwanted and alone. 

So because it is unwanted we should kill them ?

Again, prevention is the best measure. But if prevention fails, take the goddam responsibility. If one does not want to take the risk then take abstinence. As simple as that.

And if he does he loses the right to have an input.

Personally, I am vehemently Pro-life. Rape and incest included. Even the life of an inbred orphan is better than no life at all. If the mother doesn't want it, it should be put up for adoption. The only exeption is when the mother's life is directly endangered by the pregancy.

But, because abortion is legal, I'll simply tell any women I get pregnant something along the lines of "If you abort it, I'm going to leave you, and never speak to you again. Because abortion is murder, and I don't associate with murderers."

Also, an anology. I'm pointing a gun to your head. Is it my choice to pull the trigger? Yes. Is it morally justified? Hell no.

For once I agreed with your views. Of course that discounts nuking opium farms and abolishing complete male circumcision.
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Offline TheOnlySpiral

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Re: What do you think of Abortion?
« Reply #59 on: June 19, 2005, 02:24:29 PM »
Yes, handing someone years and years of pain and misery is awesome.  We should also create mutants to eat our garbage, and keep them locked in cages.  Their life would suck....but HEY....at least they are alive.
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And again someone says what I am too afraid too.  Thank you for being a braver man than I.  I agree totally on this point.

And if he does he loses the right to have an input.
Men are not entitled to deciding what happens in a woman's body.  It's got nothing to do with him.  He may have gotten her pregnant, but a pair of chimps can do that.  If the woman is not in her right mind a man could take it to court...but it is the woman's body, her life, that is being changed and altered.  There is no inherant right of fatherhood given by the act of procreation.  I know people who are closer to their step-father than their biological father.  Biology has nothing to do with fatherhood.

If the mother doesn't want it, it should be put up for adoption.
And if she doesn't want to carry it to term? Adoption is fine as long as the woman is willing to carry it.  But this is an abotion thread, not an adoption thread. 

Also, an anology. I'm pointing a gun to your head. Is it my choice to pull the trigger? Yes. Is it morally justified? Hell no.
Bad anology.  I can feel pain, and comprehend what is happening.  A fetus cannot.  Also it could be justified.  What if I am secretly a rapist or murderer? You don't know.  You make no point with this other than to cause a stir.

So because it is unwanted we should kill them ?
No.  Not because it is unwanted, but because it is better to not to willingly spread misery and woe.  It is worse to condem someone to a childhood of depression than kill them IMHO.  When you kill someone that's it, game over.  Or you can let them suffer for 18 years.  If you get an abortion early enough it's not a human life.  3 monthis is (for me) when it becomes human.  Before that...I don't give a damn.

But if prevention fails, take the goddam responsibility.
People who get abortions are taking responsability.  They know they cannot give the baby the life it needs/deserves and so they are willing to live with the knowledge that a life inside them was ended by their hand.  That takes a lot more strngth than people give credit for. 

If one does not want to take the risk then take abstinence. As simple as that.
Simplification is a sign that a mind cannot handle the complexities of reality.  It is not simple as that.   Some people don't have a choice, like rape victims.  Are you saying that they are irresponsible for getting raped? Cause using your line of logic that is what it sounds like. 
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