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Author Topic: Firearms, weapons, and the law.  (Read 50242 times)

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Offline Jehan-Reznor

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Re: Firearms, weapons, and the law.
« Reply #20 on: July 23, 2007, 09:44:52 PM »
Wel my country has one of the most strict gun laws, but they go too far even things like pelet guns or toy guns that look to realistic are banned they have to be in screaming color to be allowed.

Why are american people so hung up about the idea that the right to bear arms has anything to do with (arms)oops i ment freedom? i mean Patriot act? makes me think of the ministry of peace in Babylon 5 and the whole direction the country goverment is taking makes me think of starship troopers . Remember in the 80's europe had lots of terorist attacks by IRA, RAF, ETA but people just continiued their live and did not become paranoid!.

i am not saying that america should ban the right tobear arms law but it should be more strict. i am not sure if background check contains a history of criminal records in other state or even other countries? or even  mental records.

and by the way stricter laws do NOT prevent criminals from getting guns.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2007, 10:10:47 PM by Jehan-Reznor »
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Offline -Makenshi-

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Re: Firearms, weapons, and the law.
« Reply #21 on: July 23, 2007, 09:54:39 PM »
and by the way stricter laws do NOT prevent criminals fro getting guns.

True, I think the focus of stricter laws are to prevent 'accidents' and murder between civillians more than organised/real crime, and if they aren't then they should be.

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Re: Firearms, weapons, and the law.
« Reply #22 on: July 23, 2007, 10:32:56 PM »
Personally I have seen some loopholes thus far.

During my JROTC trips we would do fundraisers down at the WAC gunshows, the venders that sold there usually had some kind of WW-2 replica models, or perhaps an occasional authentic piece (such as a luger), then there were people who sold rifles, semi-automatics, and glock/pistol varieties (of the newer to relative modern type).

Dispomaniac was speaking about when they lifted the ban: one month on the the weekend I showed up and there were plenty of AK varieties (assuming because of how relatively cheap it is) and variations of m-14 to m-16.

There were people who sold ammo boxes between 10-20 pounds worth, and on discounted prices.

Any gun that was purchased had a restraint so you couldnt fire the weapon, you had to be a member, and typically this was associated with the NRA, but instead of the period where you need to wait, you just pick up a few guns and you could walk out with them.

some of these weapons are easy to conceal

and I found it uneasy that a plastic restraint was all between someone firing the gun.







Offline Ailaros

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Re: Firearms, weapons, and the law.
« Reply #23 on: July 24, 2007, 01:41:17 AM »
More a case that many of us have difficulty understanding/find it amusing that Americans focus so hard on the availability of firearms being a requirement of a "free" society.

It's a property rights issue. The less that a government controls who can own what, the freer a country is. Otherwise, it just becomes a case of splitting hairs of what people like and what don't. Someone can feel just as strongly that X should be banned from ownership as much as guns, and they are the same threat to property rights. While the constitution could not possibly add every piece of property, and say what the government could regulate, it did specifically note firearms, and, honestly, the 9th and 10th ammendments really make the 2nd unecessary in the first place, which shows how important it was.

and by the way stricter laws do NOT prevent criminals fro getting guns.

True, I think the focus of stricter laws are to prevent 'accidents' and murder between civillians more than organised/real crime, and if they aren't then they should be.

~MTWC

Hear hear. Gun accidents kill as many people as guns kill on purpose (excluding suicides). It never ceases to amaze me how stupid people can be with the most serious and dangerous of things. I couldn't believe what some people do, except for that I've seen people be even less responsible with even more dangerous things (namely, what people do in cars). While I'm generally not in favor of government regulation of firearms, requiring people to take a firearms safety course as a pre-requisite for gun ownership sounds like a great idea to me.

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Re: Firearms, weapons, and the law.
« Reply #24 on: July 24, 2007, 05:04:02 AM »
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requiring people to take a firearms safety course as a pre-requisite for gun ownership sounds like a great idea to me.

Now that one I find bloody ridiculous if - as that implies - there are places where you don't.

A driving license implies a demonstrated qualification in driving the appropriate class of vehicle - above all in a safe fashion. A gun is every bit as lethal in the hands of an idiot, whether they have a criminal background or not.

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Am I getting the wrong impression about this thread or is it the opinion of all the non-Americans posting here that United States citizens shouldn't have the right to own firearms?

As noted - US territory, US rules. Personally I'm happier without everyone being armed, but that's my opinion.

As I see it, you won't - as noted - stop criminals getting illegal access to firearms, but if you're talking about a hardened criminal who could get access to illegal firearms, then having a revolver that you don't really know how to use locked in a drawer by your bed probably isn't going to help, is it?

The issue is rather more one of accidents (especially children), crimes of passion, and people who just plain lose touch with reality - but not with a small arsenal of weaponry.

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Offline ratfusion

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Re: Firearms, weapons, and the law.
« Reply #25 on: July 24, 2007, 01:37:03 PM »
As I see it, you won't - as noted - stop criminals getting illegal access to firearms, but if you're talking about a hardened criminal who could get access to illegal firearms, then having a revolver that you don't really know how to use locked in a drawer by your bed probably isn't going to help, is it?


Yes, yes they can and do protect people, every day.  I think the statistic is 2.5 million a year.   Both pro-gun and gun control statistics are wildly skewed though, for a variety of reasons, from politics, to not reporting instances where a shot didn't need to be fired to scare off would be attackers.

Although most people won't lock their 'go-to' gun,  and plenty of people defend themselves and their familys while legally carrying concealed.  I do highly reccomend that you become proficient with any firearm you use to defend your family,  once a month or so at a range will keep you in practice, and most people enjoy it.   You did get one part right:  a revolver is a great choice for someone who is not a firearms enthusiast looking for a self defense weapon.



Think about the opposite extreme of gun banning utopia:  in a town where you know everyone is armed, are you going to risk getting shot to steal a TV?

Now consider the gun control extreme, if they were all gone, or never invented:  do murders stop?   


I also don't understand this notion some of you have that removing guns and going back to stabbing and bludgeoning each other to death is some how more romantic, or 'fair'.   Not only nonsensical,  its sexist.  Women have never stood better odds of being able to defend themselves than when they're proficient with and carrying a firearm.

What is your current plan if someone breaks into your home with the intention of harming your family?  Hiding with your cellphone and hoping the police show up before you're found?

I've found that a lot of people that are staunchly anti-gun, have never shot or handled a firearm.  Several that I've talked into at least coming to the range and giving it a shot have changed their minds.  It seems many people that have never had contact with guns have some fear of guns, although rarely care to admit it.

I realize there is a sea of difference in mindset that I don't hold high hopes of bridging though, when addressing an audience that doesn't seem to have a problem with banning knives, tasers, pepper spray, and even air guns.


Quote
Hear hear. Gun accidents kill as many people as guns kill on purpose (excluding suicides). It never ceases to amaze me how stupid people can be with the most serious and dangerous of things. I couldn't believe what some people do, except for that I've seen people be even less responsible with even more dangerous things (namely, what people do in cars). While I'm generally not in favor of government regulation of firearms, requiring people to take a firearms safety course as a pre-requisite for gun ownership sounds like a great idea to me.

Be careful with these statistics,  many are misleading to outright false.  Often this claim counts suicides as 'accidents'.   Hardly accidental, and hardly anything gun control will prevent.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2007, 03:02:18 PM by ratfusion »
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Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re: Firearms, weapons, and the law.
« Reply #26 on: July 24, 2007, 04:29:30 PM »
It's a property rights issue. The less that a government controls who can own what, the freer a country is.

Which illustrates the difference in focus as I think more along the lines of what a person may do and not what merely they may own.  Property ownership is a subsection of permissible behaviour when it comes to basing some emperical value of freedom for a country.
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Offline Ailaros

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Re: Firearms, weapons, and the law.
« Reply #27 on: July 24, 2007, 05:34:23 PM »
Ah, see, that's what's different. When America was founded, it was founded on the principle that everyone had the rights to

- Life
- Liberty
- Property

And those things were seen as equal to each other. Thus, you can see how some people get as upset about gun control (property) as some people do about banning gay marriage (liberty), or legalized abortion (life).

If you don't believe in the fundamental right to property, then of course it would be more attractive to ban guns as it affects both life and to a lesser extent, liberty. Americans, on the other hand, don't see eye to eye with the idea of "the property you can own is based on how careful you are with it".

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Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re: Firearms, weapons, and the law.
« Reply #28 on: July 24, 2007, 05:57:25 PM »
Which means little to outsiders as many of us don't feel the need break down such concepts to soundbite chunks.  :) This ownership mentality does speak volumes concerning American culture all the same. I do not have to own a firearm to enjoy hunting or target shooting.  Gun clubs in Nevada are very welcoming.  So to do does not require the to have.  Before someone brings up "self-defence," a firearm is not your sole means of defending yourself.

Your three examples concerning lproperty, liberty, and life concern two restrictions and one permissive action. Shouldn't it have been gun control, banning gay marriage, and banning abortion as three restrictions to actions?
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Offline ratfusion

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Re: Firearms, weapons, and the law.
« Reply #29 on: July 24, 2007, 06:19:09 PM »
Which means little to outsiders as many of us don't feel the need break down such concepts to soundbite chunks.

Dismissing the principles of our nation as 'soundbite chunks' isn't exactly open minded or in the spirit of friendly conversation.

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This ownership mentality does speak volumes concerning American culture all the same.
 

Yes, and not in a negative way as implied.

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a firearm is not your sole means of defending yourself.

Oh?  What else do you suggest?

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Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re: Firearms, weapons, and the law.
« Reply #30 on: July 24, 2007, 06:22:35 PM »
Dismissing the principles of our nation as 'soundbite chunks' isn't exactly open minded or in the spirit of friendly conversation.

They're the principles of every nation. When mentioned in such a manner they are soundbite chunks. A small summary phrase used to describe a larger topic. Accurate, yes?

Yes, and not in a negative way as implied.

Stop being so defensive. It was a statement based on observation. Not a judgement. I would have added  ::) if it were intended as a judgement.

Oh?  What else do you suggest?

Depends on the situation. Respond #1 for every situation is not "reach for a firearm."
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Offline ratfusion

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Re: Firearms, weapons, and the law.
« Reply #31 on: July 24, 2007, 06:48:52 PM »
Oh?  What else do you suggest?

Depends on the situation. Respond #1 for every situation is not "reach for a firearm."

But for some situations it is then?  Like anyone posing a direct threat to your life?
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Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re: Firearms, weapons, and the law.
« Reply #32 on: July 24, 2007, 06:54:58 PM »
For the vast majority of situations - no. Still, it's always easy to create a ficticious situation and go "ah hah!" Either that or play adecdote-ago-go. Pointless really.  As we've seen before.
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Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re: Firearms, weapons, and the law.
« Reply #33 on: July 24, 2007, 07:03:47 PM »
As long as we're not coming to YOUR country with our guns, what does it matter?

Something people these days would appreciate seeing more of.  ;)

This is the Discussion Board. People have opinions on matters completely out of their area of expertise and/or experience on a regular basis. National bias works both ways when it comes to firearm laws.
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Offline -Makenshi-

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Re: Firearms, weapons, and the law.
« Reply #34 on: July 24, 2007, 07:10:47 PM »
Just to clarify my personal position before I get to replying to something: I do not know enough about gun laws in my own country, the U.S., nor any other country, however I am inclined towards some form of gun control that requires training/testing (such as with a car, which is also dangerous). However I am not here to argue about gun laws, as I said, I do not know enough about them in my own country, let alone others, I am merely commenting on/replying to certain remarks.

It may not be the opinion of ALL the non-Americans posting here, but a few certain individuals seem to hint at the idea that we (Americans) shouldn't own firearms.

My question is, if we're shooting eachother in the streets, what concern is it of yours?  As long as we're not coming to YOUR country with our guns, what does it matter?  Are you really concerned with our well-being or are you just hoping we will conform to your idea of how we should conduct ourselves in our own country?

Personally speaking it would be my concern as I'm the kind of person who doesn't like to see people die if it can be prevented, which would be what I assume others who wish for tighter gun control/gun bans are also concerned about. This does not mean that what I, you or anyone else believes is neccassarily 'right', but I would bet good money that all sides of the gun debate think that their suggestions are preventing loss of life and the like, and alluding otherwise seems more like an atempt to smear someone more than anything else (not that you were doing so above, but I would imagine some people may feel greatly insulted by your suggestion).

As dipso alludes to above me, it's a two-way street.

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Offline Jehan-Reznor

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Re: Firearms, weapons, and the law.
« Reply #35 on: July 24, 2007, 07:56:41 PM »
It may not be the opinion of ALL the non-Americans posting here, but a few certain individuals seem to hint at the idea that we (Americans) shouldn't own firearms.

My question is, if we're shooting eachother in the streets, what concern is it of yours?  As long as we're not coming to YOUR country with our guns, what does it matter?  Are you really concerned with our well-being or are you just hoping we will conform to your idea of how we should conduct ourselves in our own country?

I think the main idea of many foreigners is that it should be more restricted not banned, one does not need an arsenal of guns and rifles for an "enemy".

But America is coming to our countries, your goverment had a hand in many recent conflicts, so yes that is a concern. America has one of the biggest arms industry in the world, and americans seem to idolate their guns very much. So me coming from a country with very strict gun control, and negligable gun crimes, is trying to comprehend your gun laws and the way it has become a part of american live.

Look i like weaponry i love to read on gun history and stuff, but their are so many gun death and gun related crimes in america that it makes me scratch my head.
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Re: Firearms, weapons, and the law.
« Reply #36 on: July 24, 2007, 08:04:37 PM »
As you mentioned the Taliban, being that the majority of the world has not grown up or been educated in such a culture has not stopped the world from understanding that the culture is unhealthy and needed to be changed. In the same manner direct experience of a religious cult is not a requirement for understanding that the cult is dangerous.  To other countries that do not have the gun culture and, in their experiences, do not need the culture they look in and wonder why it continues to exist and why it's considered healthy. It's like a non-smoker looking at a smoker and wondering why they keep doing that. Other countries do have their own form of gun culture. Merely not as "rabid" (term used loosely) as that illustrated by the US.

As a law enforcement officer I'm also sure you could name several occasions where a citizen was harmed with a firearm as well. That's why games of adecdote-ago-go don't work in these situations as the weight of evidence for both sides can be overwhelming and thus ultimately become meaningless.

Edit: As an aside as I just want to look it up for interests sake.
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Throughout North America between the years 1890 and 2000, Mr. Syme reported, there were 96 documented cougar attacks, 18 of them fatal.

One attack on average per year for two countries isn't really a good reason to be armed.  :)
« Last Edit: July 24, 2007, 08:20:57 PM by Dipsomaniac »
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Re: Firearms, weapons, and the law.
« Reply #37 on: July 24, 2007, 08:20:34 PM »
Sorry, Makenshi, I wasn't trying to insult anyone, I was just trying to understand everyone's obsession with my country's gun laws.  I just don't see why its an issue for anyone who does not live here, and I don't think anyone who has not grown-up inside the "American Gun Culture" can understand why we cling to our guns so much.  You would have to live it to understand it.  It would be the same as an American trying to understand why the Taliban behave like they do.  We have not grown-up in that culture, so we will probably never understand it the way they do.

Well, in my case Dipso's anallagy about a smoker looking in on a non-smoker is is very accurate, although having been brought up by smokers I have a much larger insight into why they smoke than why Americans have a...perhaps 'fixation' with guns is too strong a word, but I am sure you know what I mean by it.

I would disagree with your remark about it not being an issue, as people make issues of a multitude of things not in their 'back yard' (Africa for example), however I also agree that the side closer to mine in the gun debate (ultra-liberals who want guns outright banned) are equally as misguided in my eyes as the ultra-conservatives who think nothing is wrong.

Granted, I have already mentioned that this is merely my opinion, and I am by no means an expert of gun laws or guns, but the information I have come across during my Sociology lectures, net surfing and conversations with others have given me the impression that there is something wrong with American gun culture, whether this is a problem with the laws, the attitudes, the media over-reporting, or not a problem at all I leave up to those who seriously study and consider the facts.

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« Last Edit: July 24, 2007, 08:21:58 PM by - Makenshi - »
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Offline flibbertigibbet

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Re: Firearms, weapons, and the law.
« Reply #38 on: July 24, 2007, 08:31:28 PM »
i own a large number of high calibre weapons, and i do so for a number of reasons.

1. I live on the corner of bum and beslubber in oklahoma, there are a number of animals that are hazardous to my livestock (yes i live on a farm, huzzah!) as well as myself. example being that i had a dog get eaten by wild boars. yes, i'm serious. i only discovered it because i walked up as they finished. the boar charged me, i shot him repeatedly with a .50 cal desert eagle, i walked away, he didn't had i been using anything too much smaller it probably wouldn't have stopped him. For the record, i support the right to bear bazookas for farm use now. seriously, that scared the amphetamine parrot out of me.

2. I shoot recreationally. i'm not sure when it happened, but i've become a gun enthusiast. i enjoy paintballing, airsoft, and target shooting all 3. frankly the focus it takes to hit a target with an open-sight rifle at 1000 yards is relaxing for me.

3. defense. now this one i disagree with. i'm no fool, you're 85% more likely to suffer a violent death if you own guns. that is a skewed and half remembered statistic from some obscure source, so i'll trim it a bit to 50%, but basically it doesn't matter. there are situations where a gun will help you, but equally as many where it'll make you overconfident and get your dumb ass killed. frankly to own a gun is to take the responsibility that comes with it and to understand that it doesn't make you an action hero. Guns are not a defensive weapon. tasers/stun guns are defensive, meant to incapacitate and prevent harm to the user. guns are made to do one thing: kill stuff. they can be used for other things, but that is, at the core of it their core use.

all those points aside, i'm overwhelmingly of the opinion that every person over the age of 18 should do a 2-year stint in the military as is done in a number of nations around the world. it provides a significant sense of ownership in one's nation and more importantly for the sake of this topic teaches exactly what guns are and are not capable of. It'd seriously improve firearm safety.

and thare ye be. a thought out and hopefully not overwhelmingly biased opinion.
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Offline Jehan-Reznor

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Re: Firearms, weapons, and the law.
« Reply #39 on: July 24, 2007, 09:12:35 PM »
Flibbertigibbit i cannot deny your claim that you need some weaponry when you live near the wilderness. you need those guns when those pesky tresspassers come around  ;D (that was a joke).
But when almost every one owns a gun the hurdle to use is it, is much lower in lets say a big argument.
and if everyone owns a gun thiefs will still enter your house to steal your TV because they also have guns. if there are no guns you can still clobber him with a baseball bat (do not forget in holland you must clobber a thief to dead to claim self-defense otherwise he wil sue you for assault  ???).
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