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Offline Heir of Dorn

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Justifying the wraith knight
« on: April 30, 2016, 10:16:40 AM »
This is no rant. You have probably heard it all. But I wonder how eldar players justify using this mini. As a marine player, I can't think of a single strategy to effectively counter it, without crippling my army by over specializing to kill it. At 295 points, it is disgustingly imbalanced.

Is it even fun to use? Honestly now, I know that people will often defend their armies and the units in them, but really? I think gw outdid themselves this time.

Thanks :)
« Last Edit: April 30, 2016, 03:06:49 PM by Heir of Dorn »
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Offline Wyddr

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Re: Jusyifying the wraith knight
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2016, 12:43:02 PM »
Marines have the easiest and hardest counter to Wraithknights in the game. They're called "grav weapons" and if you start fielding them, you'll star to hear all the Eldar players complain about *you.*

Offline Spectral Arbor

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Re: Justifying the wraith knight
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2016, 04:44:36 PM »
Indeed, a pair of Grav-Cannons will very quickly mow down a WK, with 3 having a decent chance to down a WK in a single turn.

I've been playing against them a LOT lately. Most recently, a 1500 point game against 3 of them. Tee-Hee, I won by dumb luck.

However, as Wyddr pointed out, Grav and particularly Grav-Cannons are the singularly best way to take them out, and they're still great against pretty much every army. Very TAC.

My buddy likes the models. Has fun with the ranged-D version. He's bored of playing Eldar right now, and this evening I'll be taking either 1500 or 1850 points of his Eldar against his Marines. He tended to play White Scar, biker heavy, but might be going with Centurion dickery in which case he'll take Ultras.

So tomorrow, I should be able to tell you if WK are fun to play with. I'm taking one. Hell, I might just do a mini-report.

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Re: Justifying the wraith knight
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2016, 05:10:12 PM »
The justification for using it probably revolves around the quality of the model, its rules, and shiny new toy syndrome.

Regardless of what I may think of its rules (see below) I think that the model looks very impressive when painted and posed well, so I imagine that this is a major factor for some players.  I didn't like the model when it first came out at all, but the modelling and painting skills of people on this forum changed my mind.

In terms of the rules, it's too powerful, but it's far from the only offender in that regard.  A number of armies have very powerful superheavies, knights, flyers, or other large vehicles/titans, so I suspect that a number of players justify its presence in their army on those grounds.

Finally, there's shiny new toy syndrome, which is where players purchase the model because it's the latest supposed 'auto-win' choice and allows them to leap frog their opponents, until they buy the latest shiny new toy for their army, and so the cycle goes on until GW changes the core rules again, at which point a new cycle begins.

I wouldn't field a Wraithknight.  I think that knights have no place in 40K and belong in Epic. However, I understand why others choose too, especially in the current climate of 40K, so I am not about to criticise their choices :).
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Re: Justifying the wraith knight
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2016, 05:41:06 PM »
Wraithknights are not too bad. I plan for dealing with things like them when I make my army lists. Not easy to kill, but it's good to have a plan on how to deal with super heavies and gargantuan creatures. Good news, is that every 3 wounds or hull points you deal to them typically grants you an extra VP, so killing it can really turn the game in your favor.
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Offline Cavalier

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Re: Justifying the wraith knight
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2016, 06:38:38 PM »
Its quite easy to justify. When you play competitive games against competitive armies, a single Wraithknight is a drop in the bucket.

If you can't think of a way to defeat a single Wraithknight you need to hit your books. Grav-Centurions in a Drop Pod absolutely annihilate Wraithknights. Throw in the Hunter's eye and he can't even get a cover save. Add in the new Psychic Powers with a Librarius conclave and go for the Ignore LOS, Ignore Cover power which you are 80% likely to get and you are ignore coving, ignoring armor, ignoring toughness, ignore LOS and almost ignoring movement as you can drop-pod them in, Turn 1 or 2 if you are playing Skyhammer.

All of that is a single codex solution.

You've got 9 other battle brothers Codex options and about 14 Forge World books to help you figure it out beyond that. Space Marines are the best equipped army to handle Wraithknights in the game and have been ever since their 6th edition codex was released. I find it extremely hard to believe you cannot think of a single viable tactic to defeat a Wraithknight. It sounds like a whole lot of hyperbole
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Re: Justifying the wraith knight
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2016, 07:05:07 PM »
No-one should ever have to justify a unit. If it's a legal choice then, there you go. Sure, you're allowed to be unhappy such as back in the multiple God Falcon days yet even then there wasn't anything underhand going on.

I personally dislike many units and won't take them in my armies yet that's a personal choice and I don't expect others to follow it. IMO, Tau should never have started down the line of larger walkers yet here we are with the Bombardment suits. My dislike has mellowed over time yet I don't begrudge those who have been using them.

Same with WKs. Sure, they're nasty. I don't begrudge those who use them.  :)
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Offline Heir of Dorn

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Re: Justifying the wraith knight
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2016, 08:13:31 PM »
Tried Centurions. Got squashed in the first turn after having fired their shots, taking one whole wound from the wk. I own the regular codex, haven't played for a while really, didn't know about the new psychic rules. Are they from a new codex or from somewhere online?

This thread is the product of a discussion I had with my brother yesterday over where 40k is sort of "heading". None of us are too pleased with it, which is one of the reasons why we don't really play anymore. That's another discussion though.

Also, if I deep strike Centurions into an Eldar army, they won't last a single turn of return fire. They are easy to kill for the Eldar. Can't be assed to fetch my codex right now but a drop pod with a few centurions are probably more points worth than the wk, so that feels a bit like a pyrrhic victory...
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Re: Justifying the wraith knight
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2016, 08:20:22 PM »
The points are approximately even, actually. And there's no law making you alpha strike them. They've got a substantial threat range and can work well as area denial, etc..

They can work, is the point, and regularly do so. If you want to discuss strategies, wander down to the Space Marines boards and folks will be happy to discuss them. There is a thread on this very board claiming Wraith Knights are terrible because grav just kills them, so clearly it is dangerous.

As for "where the game is heading," well, that's your call. I was initially bothered by WKs, but not so much now. Nothing that says your group can have a gentleman's agreement banning superheavies. That would solve your problem right there.

Offline magenb

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Re: Justifying the wraith knight
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2016, 10:27:50 PM »
GW likes to sell models, so new codexes/supplements always have something unbalancing in them to sell more models and creating an endless arms race lol.

GW right now wants to sell grav weapons and librarian's.


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Re: Justifying the wraith knight
« Reply #10 on: May 1, 2016, 12:28:15 AM »
That's part of the fun. While no-one should feel the need to justify a unit, no-one should also feel the need to justify fielding a weapon that kills said unit.

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Offline Spectral Arbor

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Re: Justifying the wraith knight
« Reply #11 on: May 1, 2016, 12:29:35 AM »
Got my game in tonight. SM forfeit at mid 4th turn. [Eldar 4, SM 3] He had had a Storm Raven, Storm Talon, and 5x Assault Termies left to take 5 objectives at 1850 points.

PROS:

Nice model, if you like that sort of thing.

Twin D-Guns + Scats = Shooty Dream. I know that at high-end the Invul is necessary, but otherwise it's pure gold.

Shores up CC "weakness" of Eldar... such as it is or isn't. Assault is still key in my Meta. Max Strength, high I and Stomps. Tied up Chapter Master Smash-Face for 2.5 game turns before being punched to death while simultaneously "6'ing" the CM out with a stomp.

Provides an anchor for otherwise highly fluid army.


CONS:

Very underpriced, outside of Grav-Heavy meta. Grav-Heavy meta, hard to even take. For real, you may have had a bad round of shooting but if you run a handful of test-runs, you'll see Grav is brutal to them. All other armies can eat amphetamine parrot and die, though.

One-model, one-trick-pony Deathstar. Your opponent can deal with it or they can't.

Becomes the auto-target for all your buff spells. Invis. Guide. Fortune. Prescience. Any force multiplier is a no-brainer to toss on this Deathstar. Dull play, and obvious choice, tactically makes "easier" to counter-tactic.

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Re: Justifying the wraith knight
« Reply #12 on: May 1, 2016, 09:18:13 AM »
GW likes to sell models, so new codexes/supplements always have something unbalancing in them to sell more models and creating an endless arms race lol.

GW right now wants to sell grav weapons and librarian's.
It also helps that their new philosophy seems to be that nothing is overpowered when everything is stupidly good (as long as their codex has been updated).

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Offline vonny

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Re: Justifying the wraith knight
« Reply #13 on: May 1, 2016, 02:03:26 PM »
I own the model because I bought the whole wraithset two years ago. Never planned to field it. however, the wraithhost formation in the current codex requires one, so while I'd prefer to replace it with a wraithlord, I often field one now.

It's one of the reasons I don't often bring my eldar to a friendly game.

However, I've seen much scarier things. Rerollable 2+ invulnerable saves on invisible units, invisible grav centurions coming out of drop pods (making a mockery of whatever they chose to target), death star units with thunderwolf cavalry...

I've got a rather fluffy blood angel army (which feels much weaker than vanilla marines at the moment), a 1k sons chaos space marine army (guess how well that does) and a melee-oriented tyranid army that has slowly been built up over the years and has none of the fancy new formations or even the easy-win flyrants with dual devourers (I refuse to take them). Try using tyranids against even one imperial knight - there's literally nothing I can bring against it, except a carnifex in close combat... which'll strike last and will be dead before it can swing.

At the moment, there's plenty armies that have powerful options, the armies of the imperium especially because they can ally from so, so many origins that the silly combos you can think of are uncountable. I think the wraithknight is just a sign of the age.

And that's your point: it's not the wraithknight per se that you doubt - it's where the game is going. And that is, indeed, a whole different discussion.
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Re: Justifying the wraith knight
« Reply #14 on: May 1, 2016, 10:20:21 PM »
Dark elder basics can wound it to death. Necrons have blasted mine off the table. CSM to shreds as well as chapters of SM. The topper Ms works. And the nids, well what can I say, bugged mine out of a game. Tau, holy magpies, as well as sisters. Nope, sorry, can't go with ya on this one. Mine have preformed good and bad but not over powered imho.
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Offline Iluvhir Strafermeyer

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Re: Justifying the wraith knight
« Reply #15 on: May 2, 2016, 06:55:54 AM »
I don't think it's broken in the sense that it's too good and just dominates everything, with no way to counter it; there are several ways to counter it, in fact. Hard counters, too.
I do, however, genuinely believe that the Wk is too cheap. There is no entry or combination of entries elsewhere in the codex for the same cost that can match a WK.
Personally, I'm against using gargantuans and super-heavies in normal 40K games. I've stopped using my WK for these reasons.
Another terrible side-effect of introducing gargantuans and super-heavies to normal 40k games is the inclusion of destroyer weapons. Suddenly, good old-fashioned MCs and tanks are utterly obsolete. A tank is supposed to be somewhat durable - what's why you spend the points on one, but a destroyer weapon laughs at that armor.
No, remove gargantuans and super-heavies, as well as destroyer weapons and I'll be happy. We're sort of house ruling them out of our games anyway, me and my buddies.

So to summarize - there are several ways to counter a WK. That's not the issue. If you want to kill it, you can, just not with lascannons or multi-meltas.
What I think is wrong with it is that it's too cheap given its versatility and outstanding performance, in relation to the rest of the codex entries.

Furthermore, it goes against the traditional Eldar playstyle of specialization: our units are tailored to a specific task. If you use them the way they are designed, you'll see fantastic performance. If you use them sub-optimally, you will notice a terrible performance. This is the opposite of a Space marine army, for instance, where each unit is pretty strong and will perform most any role well enough. The WK is exceptionally good at EVERYTHING. No, I don't like it. :)
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Offline haunt

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Re: Justifying the wraith knight
« Reply #16 on: May 2, 2016, 09:07:35 AM »
Lemme toss my pennies for thought in this, it seems that we're getting what is known as the green-eyed monster syndrome...

- we shouldn't, and don't get me wrong. I truly don't mind SM getting their grav weapons.

As you could see the way they use them, it is like a club to go and smash things. We use specialized units too, but our weapons are more elegant and precise.

Use bunkers and Dark Reapers, along with a nice Wave Serpent nearby. Can't shoot your units, if they can't see them.

WK, I know and luv using it, so long as my opponents don't bring their gargantuan or superheavy. How often can I rely on a WK and kill 2.5 worth of Imperial Knights on the board, before getting killed and my friend said, "OMG, that was just 1 and there's 2 in the army?"

Just have confidence with your army and take some luck with you; never be afraid of the outcome and you'll enjoy a game even v grav weapons.
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Offline mikesusername

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Re: Justifying the wraith knight
« Reply #17 on: May 2, 2016, 07:08:36 PM »
I don't think it really requires justification to state that 40k is not a balanced game.  Its not even close.  GW doesn't seem to even try to balance the game.  the sooner people accept that and move on the better.

therefore,  if at all possible, i list swap before a game.  Basically I say "hey, this is what i want to bring, are we going to have a fun game if i bring this?"  and my friend does the same.  mistakes are made occasionally but the point of this is so that we can say " you know what, you brought a super heavy tank  and i have 4 missile launchers,  either I need to re-write my list to up the power level or you need to take out that tank"   the reasona being that theres nothing more annoying that setting up for a fun evening of 40k and having the game be over by the end of the first or second turn.   I'd rather lose a long game that was close the whole way than win a game by smushing somebody.

so thats how "I" justify the knight,  because my opponent has given consent.  Its how i justify bringing most of the gribbly stuff i bring to the table,  I ask if its ok, and if its not,  I sub it out.   

thematically this kind of makes sence too, unless your cornered or have no choice for some reason, you'll retreat from a fight you know you cant win.

Offline Heir of Dorn

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Re: Justifying the wraith knight
« Reply #18 on: May 3, 2016, 08:57:46 AM »
Retreat from a fight you cannot win? This is why your empire lies in ruins, and the Empire of Terra is... oh, nevermind.

Alright so this thread got longer than I expected. I guess the wk is, as some of you have pointed out, not the real culprit here. It is a product of its environment. The new rules set is more and more centered around what I still consider "Apocalypse rules", being the oldie that I am.

For me 40k is a lot about fielding a coherent, cool army that is as fluffy as possible. For that matter I really like fielding regular marines, scouts and rhinos and razorbacks etc. But in this meta, as far as I can tell, they are more or less useless.

Also, I don't particularly dislike the Eldar and I don't wish to flame you guys. Eldar is a cool army, has cool minis and a nice background story. They are incredibly powerful though, especially when specialized, and it's sort of easy to specialize against marines. Which results in me getting stomped when playing against them. So it's sort of a grudge that I hold, especially against that miniature which has caused me a lot of pain really. :)
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Offline Irisado

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Re: Justifying the wraith knight
« Reply #19 on: May 3, 2016, 09:16:35 AM »
If you want to discuss how you might be able to make more use out of your Marines in Rhinos and Razorbacks, why not ask in the Space Marine board and see if they can help you there?

The rules constrain the Eldar in much the same way.  My approach to playing Eldar does not really work with the current rules, but if I actually liked the rules I'd still play regardless.  I fielded less than optimal armies in fifth and sixth edition and still had a lot of fun.  It's about moving forward and not using the same strategies and tactics from one edition to the next :).

Wraithknights are, most likely, here to stay now, so find ways to adapt your game to manage dealing with them.  It can be done, even if it's not going to be that easy.  You'll make more progress thinking of ways around the problem that they pose than by getting frustrated about them, as I think you're starting to see.

My favourite method for making games more of a challenge for opponents who like to field powerful, yet expensive, units in 40K was to lower the points limit.  If you play games of around 1,500 points, you'll start to see that some of these large models, like the Wraithknight, consume so many points that you can have an advantage simply by bringing more units to bear.  Wraithknights are very powerful, but they cannot win the game on their own, based on the reports I have read.
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