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Author Topic: Gate of Infinity - teleport out of melee  (Read 8605 times)

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Offline Shinryongdo

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Gate of Infinity - teleport out of melee
« on: August 12, 2009, 03:05:30 AM »
Hi, I have a pretty simple question about using gate of infinity on the libby. Can you use it to teleport out of cc?

Mod-edit: title clarified
« Last Edit: August 12, 2009, 04:29:34 AM by Dr_Ruminahui »
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Offline Thalandir

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Re: Gate of Infinity - teleport out of melee
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2009, 06:06:08 AM »
Ok, I looked through the rulebook, FAQ and Codex and none of them give any reason as to why you cannot (Eldar Farseers can use their powers in combat, after all).

Therefore, I'd say it was a yes, unless someone finds something contradicting this that I missed.

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Offline Seattledv8

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Re: Gate of Infinity - teleport out of melee
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2009, 09:16:32 AM »
Except that the rules do not tell us that it is allowed?
There are many powers and effects that let a unit move from CC, all of them tell us, or points out what the unit locked in combat can do.
GoI has nothing.
Since Deep striking counts as movement and units locked in combat may not move.
Without  a ruling to allow it, GoI can not remove a umit from combat as I see it.
Do you use the number on the bottom of the die to determine your rolls? because the book doesn't discuss that the top is the correct side to read, either. some things are just THAT obvious.
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Offline g3nius_monkey

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Re: Gate of Infinity - teleport out of melee
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2009, 10:26:54 AM »
Except that the rules do not tell us that it is allowed?
There are many powers and effects that let a unit move from CC, all of them tell us, or points out what the unit locked in combat can do.
GoI has nothing.
Since Deep striking counts as movement and units locked in combat may not move.
Without  a ruling to allow it, GoI can not remove a umit from combat as I see it.

First of all, units arriving via deep strike do not count as moving. They simply "cannot move further," to represent the shock of arriving through the warp.

The permissivity here comes from the wording in the SM Codex. It simply says the power is used at the beginning of the movement phase, and that it removes the librarian and his unit from the board and places them back via deep strike. It gives no restrictions as to what situations the power can be used, nor does it ever say that Gating counts as moving, so it is assumed it may always be used at the beginning of the movement phase.

To be honest, I haven't given the strategy much thought. It might require some explaining if you try to use it against an opponent, but it looks like its entirely legal.

As an additional note, someone brought up Gating out of a transport once already, and from what I understand it most people said it was possible. So Gating in odd situations is possible.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2009, 10:30:35 AM by g3nius_monkey »
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Offline Seattledv8

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Re: Gate of Infinity - teleport out of melee
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2009, 05:54:08 PM »
BRB pg.95'......,and obviously count as having moved in the previous Movement phase."

Deep striking is considered movement.
Do you use the number on the bottom of the die to determine your rolls? because the book doesn't discuss that the top is the correct side to read, either. some things are just THAT obvious.
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Offline Thalandir

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Re: Gate of Infinity - teleport out of melee
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2009, 06:01:21 PM »
BRB pg.95'......,and obviously count as having moved in the previous Movement phase."

Deep striking is considered movement.

Arguments like that are along the same lines as Khodexus' argument that because you are disallowed the usual action that occurs in a turn, you cannot perform any action in that turn, which is both wrong and ridiculous.

Besides, you aren't deep striking until after the unit has left combat anyway, rendering that argument useless.

Let me ask you, Seattledv8; if an Eldar Farseer can use Doom/Guide etc, in combat, why can't a Librarian use Gate of Infinity? The only powers you can't use in combat are psychic shooting powers, and GoI is certainly not a shooting attack.

~Thal


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Offline Guildmage Aech

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Re: Gate of Infinity - teleport out of melee
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2009, 06:03:13 PM »
BRB pg.95'......,and obviously count as having moved in the previous Movement phase."

Deep striking is considered movement.

Thats nice, but before models deep strike they are removed from the table, thus removing them from the combat, thus removing them from they situation in which the could not move.

What you have to do is prove that the models can't be removed from combat.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2009, 06:04:18 PM by Hymirl »
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Offline Wicky

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Re: Gate of Infinity - teleport out of melee
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2009, 09:49:43 PM »
If the ‘Gate of Infinity’ is used at the beginning of the movement phase and you are locked into the assault phase until its resolved, would this mean that there is no movement phase available to that model?



Offline g3nius_monkey

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Re: Gate of Infinity - teleport out of melee
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2009, 11:52:16 PM »
If the ‘Gate of Infinity’ is used at the beginning of the movement phase and you are locked into the assault phase until its resolved, would this mean that there is no movement phase available to that model?

Units that are locked in combat aren't "stuck" in the assault phase.

Two units that are locked in CC as the result of actions taken in an assault phase still get their movement and shooting phases. They just cannot perform actions that they would normally be allowed to do (specifically, they may not move or shoot in their respective phases).
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Offline YuenglingDragon

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Re: Gate of Infinity - teleport out of melee
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2009, 11:57:25 PM »
I don't understand why deep strike making units count as having moved in a previous turn prevents GoI.  It just says "counts as" not must have been able to or something like that.
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Offline Shinryongdo

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Re: Gate of Infinity - teleport out of melee
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2009, 11:59:58 PM »
wow, i thought that this would be a quick reply. the only reason why i asked was because i was thinking it was similar to necrons porting out of cc and thought it might be a nice tactic with sternguard. so the general concensus is that it is doable and legal to GOI out of cc?
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Offline Wicky

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Re: Gate of Infinity - teleport out of melee
« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2009, 12:02:21 AM »
If the ‘Gate of Infinity’ is used at the beginning of the movement phase and you are locked into the assault phase until its resolved, would this mean that there is no movement phase available to that model?

Units that are locked in combat aren't "stuck" in the assault phase.

Two units that are locked in CC as the result of actions taken in an assault phase still get their movement and shooting phases. They just cannot perform actions that they would normally be allowed to do (specifically, they may not move or shoot in their respective phases).

I agree that the turn is still there for the game but if you can’t access what comes in those phases is it not reasonable to say you can’t access any ability that comes with them?
« Last Edit: August 13, 2009, 01:17:13 AM by Wicky »

Offline Seattledv8

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Re: Gate of Infinity - teleport out of melee
« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2009, 12:38:56 AM »
Let me ask you, Seattledv8; if an Eldar Farseer can use Doom/Guide etc, in combat, why can't a Librarian use Gate of Infinity? The only powers you can't use in combat are psychic shooting powers, and GoI is certainly not a shooting attack.

~Thal
The reason that psychic shooting attacks are disallowed in CC is the reason I believe GoI is disallowed, It would break another rule( BRB pg. 40 "While a unit is locked in combat......and may not otherwise move or shoot."

In order to move you would need permission.GoI doesn't speak to this at all .
Breaking the removing and then deep striking into two steps to avoid moving seems a very weak point.
 
Do you use the number on the bottom of the die to determine your rolls? because the book doesn't discuss that the top is the correct side to read, either. some things are just THAT obvious.
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Offline Darkwindas

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Re: Gate of Infinity - teleport out of melee
« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2009, 01:09:27 AM »
I see you want to use GoI as eldar swooping hawks skyleap power. I would argue you cannot leave close combat with it because:
1) 20k rules are permissive - if power does not state you can do that - you cannot. There is no "assuming" in here. All the istances where you can leave close combat must be specificly covered in rulebook/codex.
2) The precedent - swooping hawk power skyleap specificaly mentions you can leave close combat and what happens with the unit if you leave close combat with skyleap.
3) There are no such statements in GoI description meaning leasure of leaving close combat is not included. What happens to the enemy unit after you leave close combat? Does it have the right to consolidate? how many inches? none of this is covered within the GoI description and this must be for a reason.

My verdict - GoI does not allow to leave close combat.

Offline Dr_Ruminahui

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Re: Gate of Infinity - teleport out of melee
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2009, 01:29:15 AM »
It should be noted that this has been quite hotly debated in the past.

See here.

And here.

Both found simply using the search term "Gate of Infinity", with the search restricted to the rules forum - the search engine is your friend. 8)


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Offline g3nius_monkey

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Re: Gate of Infinity - teleport out of melee
« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2009, 02:13:00 AM »
I read through some of the threads and noticed two major trends emerging in the argument.

Those who argue against it talk about "express permission," and explain that the rulebook being permissive you can only do something that the book explicitly says you can. This goes in line with the book saying when you can move your troops, how far they can go, when they can assault, etc.

Unfortunately, I do not think that that argument can apply here, and I also think that posters are wrong in saying that the book does not allow a Librarian to Gate out of CC, even though the book might no explicitly say so.

To understand what I mean, you have to do a little jumping around, and some basic reasoning. The rulebook states that in order to use a psychic move, a Psyker must pass a special leadership test. When can a Psyker use a special ability? This is described in their respective Codex.

In the Space Marine Codex, it says that a Librarian may use one psychic power per player turn. What phase of each turn the Librarian is allowed to use a move is explicitly described in its entry. GoI states that it is used at the beginning of the movement phase.

Lets review whats happening so far. A librarian that is locked in combat is using a psychic power. When? At the beginning of the movement phase. Is he allowed? Yes, the SM Codex says that a librarian may use one power per player turn. Nothing illegal has been done so far.

So what happens now? If the Librarian passes his Psychic test, then he is removed from the board and returned via deep strike within 2' of his original position. Is this allowed if he's locked in CC? The rulebook does not prevent psykers from using their powers in CC, so yes.
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Offline Dr_Ruminahui

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Re: Gate of Infinity - teleport out of melee
« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2009, 02:39:47 AM »
I think the "expressly needs to say so" argument is also based on the fact that every other ability that allows you leave close combat expressly states so (the necron's veil, eldar's skyleap, the ork teleporting power), implying that if it doesn't say so, one can't.

Now, whether or not one agrees with that argument is another matter.

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Offline Thalandir

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Re: Gate of Infinity - teleport out of melee
« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2009, 02:57:59 AM »
I think the "expressly needs to say so" argument is also based on the fact that every other ability that allows you leave close combat expressly states so (the necron's veil, eldar's skyleap, the ork teleporting power), implying that if it doesn't say so, one can't.

Now, whether or not one agrees with that argument is another matter.

That comes down to a person's opinion more than anything else, and I think that we can agree that it will get us absolutely nowhere, as will arguing over precedents.

I'm with the monkey; Codex says that you pick up your models and deep strike them, with no mention on restrictions. The psychic powers section of the rulebook also says nothing about restrictions in combat.

Hence, you can GoI out of combat.

There is only so far you can take the "But there's nothing saying that you can!" phrase before you're bending the rules in ways they shouldn't be bent. To anyone who wants to argue this, I refer you to g3nius_monkey's epic post about what the rulebook does not tell us.

Yes, 40k is a permissive rules game. The psychic powers section says that we can use powers. The Codex tells us when we can use this power; at the beginning of the Libby's movement phase. So, we clearly have permission to use the power. Does it tell us that there are restrictions? No, it does not.

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« Last Edit: August 13, 2009, 03:01:29 AM by Thalandir; Surgical Elf »


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Offline g3nius_monkey

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Re: Gate of Infinity - teleport out of melee
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2009, 03:09:12 AM »
It's hard to explain why that logic just doesn't set with me, so I'll give an example.

The rulebook doesn't state how you're supposed to glue a model to its base. All it says is that the model simply must be glued in place. You cannot tell a player that he is breaking the rules of the book if he glued a model on its feet (what is normally accepted as legal), under the reasoning that the book never says he is allowed to do so. It is implicitly permissive, since the book pretty much leaves it up to the player as to how he wants to glue the model on the base, only saying that he "must."

I kinda look at the Psychic Power thing the same way. The book simply says that psychic powers may be used if the psyker passes a psychic test, and pretty much leaves it up to the player as to when he wishes to use them. Granted, the Codex do give specific phases that the powers need to be used, but there is no clause in the rulebook that describes every situation in which every psychic power may be used.

Specifically in the case of GoI, the Codex only states that the power is "used" at the beginning of the movement phase. It is therefore implied that the power may be used at the beginning of the movement phase (which in itself IS the permissivity clause, IMO).
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Offline Wicky

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Re: Gate of Infinity - teleport out of melee
« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2009, 04:11:04 AM »
It's hard to explain why that logic just doesn't set with me, so I'll give an example.

The rulebook doesn't state how you're supposed to glue a model to its base. All it says is that the model simply must be glued in place. You cannot tell a player that he is breaking the rules of the book if he glued a model on its feet (what is normally accepted as legal), under the reasoning that the book never says he is allowed to do so. It is implicitly permissive, since the book pretty much leaves it up to the player as to how he wants to glue the model on the base, only saying that he "must."

I kinda look at the Psychic Power thing the same way. The book simply says that psychic powers may be used if the psyker passes a psychic test, and pretty much leaves it up to the player as to when he wishes to use them. Granted, the Codex do give specific phases that the powers need to be used, but there is no clause in the rulebook that describes every situation in which every psychic power may be used.

Specifically in the case of GoI, the Codex only states that the power is "used" at the beginning of the movement phase. It is therefore implied that the power may be used at the beginning of the movement phase (which in itself IS the permissivity clause, IMO).

A picture is worth a thousand words my friend and how many pictures have you seen of models not glued on their feet? Not that many.

I find that a very poor example I am sorry to say and falls into the same category of dice being read from any side because it’s not stated.

I find that ‘gating’ out of combat wrong because once in combat all units don’t get the use of a movement phase unless it’s stated or pictured.

 


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