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Author Topic: D & D the thief  (Read 594 times)

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Offline Pendragon

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D & D the thief
« on: November 5, 2003, 09:32:21 AM »
Does anyone else think that the 3rd edition and 3.5 edition thief is out of balance with the rest of the characters.

I mean they get far two many skill points, and nearly every skill is class, cannot be caught flat-footed by anything less than four levels higher than them, can reflex for no damage from most spells, sneak attack using longswords, hide like a god, spot like a god, and the list goes on.

In melee combat, a group of rogues can deal out more damage than fighters, with the ability to sneak attack anytime they have a flank attack. I watched a group of all rogues the other night take out a party of fighters? Sure, some of them got hurt really bad and one died, but they did it. Rogues? Fighting in melee?

I had a guy that plays a rogue seriously tell me his guy was too weak the other night?

Oh, and the presitage versions are even worse. Assassin anyone?

-Pendragon
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Offline Warhoon

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Re:D & D the thief
« Reply #1 on: November 5, 2003, 01:14:34 PM »
There are some drawbacks -- to sneak attack with a longsword, the rogue has to be in melee and he's probably wearing light armor.  He can't "tank it up" like a fighter can.

The skill points are limited by the rank limits in each skill.  Although, frankly, I find that I'm buying ranks in skills that I don't really want because I have so many points to spend and I've reached the max for that level on the skills I *do* want.

I'm not sure what the answer to that is, though.  You sure don't want to take off the caps.

My friend is running a current campaign in the Forgotten Realms and we've found our rogue spending points on Local Knowledge skills in the different areas for campaign purposes, so that's one way of getting those points spent.

In general, we've not found the rogue to be any more unbalanced than any other class.  Maybe because we don't min/max that much, but I could see it happen.

<<double-checks post to make sure it's all "rogue" and no "rouge">>  :P
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Offline Lanorel

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Re:D & D the thief
« Reply #2 on: November 5, 2003, 01:27:19 PM »
Umm, what he said. ;)

Sure, the Rogue can dish out some serious damage, but he can't take it himself. Kinda like an Eldar. :) (Not to mention Wizard). As for the skillpoints, I don't think it's that unbalancing - not more than the extra feats for Fighters, for example.

Offline Pendragon

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Re:D & D the thief
« Reply #3 on: November 5, 2003, 03:09:24 PM »
I for one find the thief just to well rounded.

I agree they cannot take the punishment that a fighter can in combat, they can however dish out damage like never before and even a lightly armored rogue can have a really good AC. Hell, our best ac is held by a rogue in leather armor, damn halfings.

He just has to many skill points. A good thief will max out 11 different skills per level. What the hell is that?

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Offline Warhoon

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Re:D & D the thief
« Reply #4 on: November 5, 2003, 04:03:13 PM »
I for one find the thief just to well rounded.

I agree they cannot take the punishment that a fighter can in combat, they can however dish out damage like never before and even a lightly armored rogue can have a really good AC. Hell, our best ac is held by a rogue in leather armor, damn halfings.

He just has to many skill points. A good thief will max out 11 different skills per level. What the hell is that?

-Pendragon

He's probably maxing out skills because the DM isn't giving him any reason to spend points on some of those non-Dungeon-Monkey skills.  I'll bet he has nothing in Appraise (since this skill is usually ignored in campaigns in which shopping is done "off-line"), Knowledge skills, or the like.

If the only skills you ever use in your campaign are Spot, Listen, Disable Devices, and Open Locks, then yeah, they get too many skill points.  Maybe everyone in your group would agree to roll back the skill points earned by the rogue (maybe by 1/level?) if they're finding the rules unsatisfying.

<<Still waiting for that first incidence of "rouge"....>>
« Last Edit: November 5, 2003, 04:16:08 PM by Warhoon »
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Offline Marb'ailtor

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Re:D & D the thief
« Reply #5 on: November 5, 2003, 07:26:49 PM »
Wow, I really have to agree with Warhoon on that one.  I never noticed it before, but our DMs never have us buy equipment that we need during the game (like what we probably should have to do).  As far as knowledge checks go, well, we don't take knowledge checks and thus never need ranks in knowledge!  Hmmm, opened my eyes to what I need to make MY campaign a little more interesting and "real".
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Offline Helmed Horror

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Re:D & D the thief
« Reply #6 on: November 5, 2003, 10:56:21 PM »
Well in our group rogue's seemed to be really toned down. Seeing as the only rogue is two levels lower tahn as all. And played by soemone who can't really play well at all. But ususally they don't seem to hog the spotlight and there is never more than one (so all in all not much problem).
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Offline Pendragon

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Re: D & D the thief
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2003, 09:40:02 AM »
Our rogues have appraise maxed. Why wouldn't they? 11 skills a turn is pick and choose time.

Here you go 11 skills:

Hide
move silent
listen
spot
Open locks
Disable device

After those 6, do what you want, climb, appraise, whatever you like.

Our Dm does nothing off-line. You buy in game and if you haven't got an appraisal skill or someone who does, you could get hosed. There is nothing on auto-pilot in our game. Even Item creation is done during game time, granted you do not get much done sitting over there making a few rolls each game session but it is done in game time.

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Offline Jos

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Re: D & D the thief
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2003, 12:02:37 PM »
That would certainly be one approach to rouques, taking these skills everytime you level up. The roques in the campaigns I have run, have focused more on something like

Appraise
Bluff
Diplomacy
Gather information
Spot
Sense Motive
Use Magic device

...and then investing the rest in more "classical" roque skills (move silently, hide, etc.). But this difference likely comes from my preference for intrique/horror-type scenarios in urban settings, more than epic quests in dungeons.

 


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