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The Armies of 40k => Space Marines => Topic started by: Wyddr on August 5, 2019, 09:59:55 AM

Title: Wishlisting/Rumormill for New Marine Codex
Post by: Wyddr on August 5, 2019, 09:59:55 AM
Hello, friends!

So, what do you hope to see in the new Marine 'Dex? What have you heard is going to be in there? And what about these supplemental codexes?

Personally, since I'm a big fan of the Imperial Fists, I hope my favorite chapter gets some slightly better Chapter Tactics, since their current ones are easily the least useful in the book.

I'd like to see Terminators get a little better (maybe an extra attack, maybe an extra wound) and I'd like to see Centurions boosted to 4-5 wounds apiece, to better represent their size and bulk. Thunderfire Cannons could use a little love, too. 

All the Primaris stuff they've revealed looks fine and all, but I'd like some of the classics to get revisited and revamped.

Oh, and they can *totally* cut out the Hunter or the Stalker, for all I care.
Title: Re: Wishlisting/Rumormill for New Marine Codex
Post by: faitherun (Fay-ith-er-run) on August 5, 2019, 10:43:51 AM
First, I have to state, I never have nor probably ever will play Imperium in any fashion.

That being said, the state of pure SM has been sad of late.

Title: Re: Wishlisting/Rumormill for New Marine Codex
Post by: Wyddr on August 5, 2019, 11:29:43 AM
Yeah, Tac Squads need a *lot* of love, but I somehow doubt they're going to get it.

Also, it is very true about dreads! There is no earthly reason they should have been kicked out of drop pods in the first place.
Title: Re: Wishlisting/Rumormill for New Marine Codex
Post by: Myen'Tal on August 5, 2019, 01:58:55 PM
Chapter Tactics 2.0 just landed on the Warhammer Community site. Much improved over the 1.0 versions, IMHO.

Space Marines Preview: Enhanced Chapter Tactics - Warhammer Community (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/08/05/space-marines-preview-enhanced-chapter-tacticsgw-homepage-post-1-2/)

I'm really tempted by this new codex... I'm already downsizing one of my AoS armies, and will be springing into 40k soon. I'll be doing either Sisters of Battle or White Scars chapter... the other I'll likely start sometime next year.

I'm really surprised by the Crimson Fist and Black Templar ones, since they still seem better than the Imperial Fists ;), but it looks like even the Fist have improved.
Title: Re: Wishlisting/Rumormill for New Marine Codex
Post by: Wyddr on August 5, 2019, 02:43:00 PM
Yeah, the Fists got better, but still come up short. Hopefully some better chapter specific stratagems or relics will make up for it.
Title: Re: Wishlisting/Rumormill for New Marine Codex
Post by: magenb on August 5, 2019, 05:11:03 PM
Yeah, the Fists got better, but still come up short. Hopefully some better chapter specific stratagems or relics will make up for it.

I tend not to see too many things out in the open, so ignore cover is really useful, especally considering how many cloaks are floating around these days.


Could be worse, you could be blood ravens :)


I would say we should start calling 8th ed 40k early access, but even EA doesn't make you pay for updates.

Title: Re: Wishlisting/Rumormill for New Marine Codex
Post by: Wyddr on August 5, 2019, 05:51:44 PM
I tend to play against horde armies or lightly armored troops, so ignore cover hardly ever works. *Everyone* has to be in cover these days, so big hordes of orks never get anything.

Anyway, I overlooked Shock Assault, which looks quite good!

I would say we should start calling 8th ed 40k early access, but even EA doesn't make you pay for updates.

I mean, GW has been doing this since the early 1990s, so it's not like it's a surprise.
Title: Re: Wishlisting/Rumormill for New Marine Codex
Post by: Grand Master Lomandalis on August 6, 2019, 05:34:25 PM
Yeah, the Fists got better, but still come up short. Hopefully some better chapter specific stratagems or relics will make up for it.
Ignoring cover army wide is nothing to sneeze at.  Granted, if you are playing strictly against hoards then you don't get much use out of it.  However, against most armies it is immensely beneficial; especially with getting extra bolt hits.  Add in that, from the sounds of it, the chapter tactics also apply to vehicles now and... oooooh man!  When I run my Ravenwing and they're getting No Cover from the Talonmasters, it adds something to their impact.

I would say we should start calling 8th ed 40k early access, but even EA doesn't make you pay for updates.
I'm curious how many editions of 40k you have played lol.  As Wyddr said, this is nothing new.  In 3rd edition, GW released the mini-dexes for Space Marines, and then updated the mini-dexes because the rules were so out of whack.  Every new edition being released and every new codex is a rules update.  People have had no issue paying for that in the past, so why is this any different?

My view is that if they are doubling back now to update the codexes, then it shows that they are happy with the core rules for the game; which goes double for me.  I love the game as it is now, and believe it is just a balance issue with the codexes that needs to be addressed; which is exactly what GW is doing now.



As for what I want to see?

Title: Re: Wishlisting/Rumormill for New Marine Codex
Post by: magenb on August 6, 2019, 06:00:46 PM
I tend to play against horde armies or lightly armored troops, so ignore cover hardly ever works. *Everyone* has to be in cover these days, so big hordes of orks never get anything.

Anyway, I overlooked Shock Assault, which looks quite good!

I would say we should start calling 8th ed 40k early access, but even EA doesn't make you pay for updates.

I mean, GW has been doing this since the early 1990s, so it's not like it's a surprise.

GW has not been releasing mutiple codexes for the same army inside the same game edition, you were very lucky to see all the dexes updated before the edition changed lol. They have done things like a single sub faction supplement eg Iyanden from 6th ed.
Title: Re: Wishlisting/Rumormill for New Marine Codex
Post by: Grand Master Lomandalis on August 6, 2019, 06:15:41 PM
I tend to play against horde armies or lightly armored troops, so ignore cover hardly ever works. *Everyone* has to be in cover these days, so big hordes of orks never get anything.

Anyway, I overlooked Shock Assault, which looks quite good!

I would say we should start calling 8th ed 40k early access, but even EA doesn't make you pay for updates.

I mean, GW has been doing this since the early 1990s, so it's not like it's a surprise.

GW has not been releasing mutiple codexes for the same army inside the same game edition, you were very lucky to see all the dexes updated before the edition changed lol. They have done things like a single sub faction supplement eg Iyanden from 6th ed.

Codex: Dark Angels and Codex: Dark Eldar in 3rd edition would beg to differ
Title: Re: Wishlisting/Rumormill for New Marine Codex
Post by: Wyddr on August 6, 2019, 06:30:46 PM
All of 7th edition was like this, too.

Anyway, I'm not complaining. The marines need the update and I don't want the edition to totally change.
Title: Re: Wishlisting/Rumormill for New Marine Codex
Post by: Wyddr on August 13, 2019, 03:40:55 AM
So, I guess Intercessors are just nakedly better than Tacticals forever now?

Have we heard of Tacs getting *anything* to balance this out?
Title: Re: Wishlisting/Rumormill for New Marine Codex
Post by: Myen'Tal on August 13, 2019, 08:51:20 AM
Tactical marines have dropped down to 12 points, but that's all that I've heard.

Cheaper than Chaos marines, whilst also having access to all of the rules from the new codex.
Title: Re: Wishlisting/Rumormill for New Marine Codex
Post by: Wyddr on August 14, 2019, 02:36:29 AM
The economics aren't there, though. You can pay 9 points per wound for Intercessors (who also have those rules plus more) or 12ppw for tacs and the ability to take one (1) plasma gun.

Blech.
Title: Re: Wishlisting/Rumormill for New Marine Codex
Post by: magenb on August 14, 2019, 06:07:29 PM
The economics aren't there, though. You can pay 9 points per wound for Intercessors (who also have those rules plus more) or 12ppw for tacs and the ability to take one (1) plasma gun.

Blech.

You get more wounds with Intercessors, but more shots with Tacs. You also take up more space with tacs which could be a pro or a con lol.


Title: Re: Wishlisting/Rumormill for New Marine Codex
Post by: Blazinghand on August 14, 2019, 06:28:33 PM
I think that Tacs should really get some kind of tactical flexibility buff, or something. Right now my opponents tend to take Scouts over Tacs for the "tough and cheap troops" role, and intercessors over tacs for the traditional battleline role. I guess I won't know for sure until I get the codex in my hands but I feel like the main advantage of a tac squad is "a 5-man squad can take a combi-plasma on the sgt as well as a plasma gun trooper" which feels a lot less dangerous than an intercessor squad does these days. We'll have to see...
Title: Re: Wishlisting/Rumormill for New Marine Codex
Post by: Wyddr on August 15, 2019, 01:59:40 AM
You get more wounds with Intercessors, but more shots with Tacs. You also take up more space with tacs which could be a pro or a con lol.

More shots? I don't know about that. Spend 120 for 10 tacs and 20 shots. Spend 120 to buy 6 Intercessors with Auto Bolt Rifles and you get 18. Plus 2 more wounds and 2 more attacks.

I guess Tacs get to ride in drop pods, but otherwise? They're just a fluff choice now. Or 5 guys and a heavy weapon. They just aren't the mainstay.
Title: Re: Wishlisting/Rumormill for New Marine Codex
Post by: Myen'Tal on August 20, 2019, 10:27:59 PM
So, what are the opinions on the new Astartes so far? I glanced through the codex and there is some really cool stuff in there! My favorite rules are the ones for the Successor Chapters, which there are a lot of chapter tactics worth considering depending on your build. Played around and made a Primaris Vanguard list, but I'm still waiting for Sisters ;).

I think Incursors would be a good unit to place in Impulsors. Infiltrators already have some stealthy shenanigans that keep them protected on the field. 6 interccesors in an impulsor don't really seem worth it. Could be more useful for Helblasters though.
Title: Re: Wishlisting/Rumormill for New Marine Codex
Post by: Wyddr on August 21, 2019, 03:33:02 PM
I haven't gotten my hands on the book yet, but Invictors look filthy. All those guns *and* they deploy like a scout? Yes please.
Title: Re: Wishlisting/Rumormill for New Marine Codex
Post by: Myen'Tal on August 21, 2019, 04:06:59 PM
Yeah, the Invictors do look pretty good, but I really cannot stand the model lol. The scaled down Dreadnaught is alright to me, but the marine inside it looks a bit too silly for me. Granted, everything else about the suit is really cool. I love the heavy bolter on the hip / in the hand.

Just for fun!!! ;D

**Chapter Selection**
Selections: Raven Guard Successor, Stalwart
Relics of the Chapter (1 Relic)

HQ

Captain in Phobos Armour
Selections: 2. Lord of Deceit, Camo cloak, Master-crafted instigator bolt carbine, The Vox Espiritum, Warlord

Librarian in Phobos Armour
Selections: 5) Tenebrous Curse, 6) Temporal Corridor, Camo cloak, Force sword, Reliquary of Gathalamor

Primaris Lieutenants

Primaris Lieutenant
Selections: Master-crafted stalker bolt rifle

Primaris Lieutenant
Selections: Master-crafted stalker bolt rifle

Primaris Lieutenant
Selections: Master-crafted stalker bolt rifle

Troops

Incursor Squad
Selections: Haywire Mine, 4x Incursor, Incursor Sergeant

Incursor Squad
Selections: Haywire Mine, 4x Incursor, Incursor Sergeant

Incursor Squad
Selections: Haywire Mine, 4x Incursor, Incursor Sergeant

Infiltrator Squad
Selections: 8x Infilltrator, Infiltrator Helix Adept, Infiltrator Sergeant

Infiltrator Squad
Selections: 8x Infilltrator, Infiltrator Helix Adept, Infiltrator Sergeant

Elites

Invictor Tactical Warsuit
Selections: Fragstorm Grenade Launcher, Heavy bolter, 2x Ironhail Heavy Stubber, Twin ironhail autocannon

Invictor Tactical Warsuit
Selections: Fragstorm Grenade Launcher, Heavy bolter, 2x Ironhail Heavy Stubber, Twin ironhail autocannon

Heavy Support

Eliminator Squad
Eliminator Sergeant
Selections: Bolt sniper rifle, Camo cloak
2x Eliminator with Bolt Sniper
Selections: 2x Bolt sniper rifle, 2x Camo cloak

Eliminator Squad
Eliminator Sergeant
Selections: Camo cloak, Las Fusil
Eliminator with Las Fusil
Selections: Camo cloak
Eliminator with Las Fusil
Selections: Camo cloak

Eliminator Squad
Eliminator Sergeant
Selections: Camo cloak, Las Fusil
Eliminator with Las Fusil
Selections: Camo cloak
Eliminator with Las Fusil
Selections: Camo cloak

Dedicated Transport
Impulsor
Selections: 2x Storm Bolters, Ironhail Heavy Stubber, Shield Dome
Impulsor
Selections: 2x Storm Bolters, Ironhail Heavy Stubber, Shield Dome
Impulsor
Selections: 2x Storm Bolters, Ironhail Heavy Stubber, Shield Dome

1994 / 2000
Title: Re: Wishlisting/Rumormill for New Marine Codex
Post by: Wyddr on August 28, 2019, 08:07:34 AM
Okay, got the codex and had a good look-through.

The most surprising improvement to me are Chaplains! The new Litanies look great, *especially* Litany of Death! I can see them now as more than just an assault unit now--they can be legitimately useful in a gunline or defensive role!

I also like a number of the new Stratagems, which overall got much better. They are *really* pushing Intercessors now, huh?
I probably should see about all my old Tac Squads crossing the Rubicon Primaris (a bit of fluff I love, by the way).
Title: Re: Wishlisting/Rumormill for New Marine Codex
Post by: Myen'Tal on August 28, 2019, 11:08:35 PM
Quote
The most surprising improvement to me are Chaplains! The new Litanies look great, *especially* Litany of Death! I can see them now as more than just an assault unit now--they can be legitimately useful in a gunline or defensive role!

Chaplains in Gravis Armor would be really cool, now that I think about it. But yeah, Chaplains are officially worth taking now. Just wish we had some other chaplains if we have to have them monopose.

Quote
I also like a number of the new Stratagems, which overall got much better. They are *really* pushing Intercessors now, huh?
I probably should see about all my old Tac Squads crossing the Rubicon Primaris (a bit of fluff I love, by the way).

That would be really cool, Primaris do haze some snazzy models ;D. Are you going to try and convert or just build up your primaris forces?
Title: Re: Wishlisting/Rumormill for New Marine Codex
Post by: Wyddr on August 29, 2019, 06:35:11 AM
I'll just buy more guys and say that they're the old tac squad reborn. My tacs did some good work for me back in the day. They deserve it.

In re-reading the Chaplain Litanies, I see that "Litany of Death" is actually "Litany of Faith" and that it only applies to mortal wounds. Still cool, but less of a no-brainer.

In other news: Assault Carbines are a *lot* more expensive, huh? I mean, that makes sense, but it's also a hefty price tag. GW may have just priced them off the board.
Title: Re: Wishlisting/Rumormill for New Marine Codex
Post by: Myen'Tal on August 29, 2019, 05:28:33 PM
Are you leaning more towards Vanguard Primaris or the Battleline Primaris?

What are your thoughts on the Impulsor? The shield dome gives it a hefty invulnerable save, plus with it's 14" movement, this thing can deliver cargo pretty reliably from what I can see.

Title: Re: Wishlisting/Rumormill for New Marine Codex
Post by: Wyddr on August 29, 2019, 08:31:43 PM
It can deliver...what, exactly? 6 Intercessors?

Plus, invulnerable or not, it's not very tough, doesn't add much firepower...

Meh.
Title: Re: Wishlisting/Rumormill for New Marine Codex
Post by: Myen'Tal on August 29, 2019, 08:38:34 PM
Incursors, Infiltrators, Aggressors... minimal squads, of course. But then again I don't really play 40k (yet), but I think I can see some potential for it.
Title: Re: Wishlisting/Rumormill for New Marine Codex
Post by: Wyddr on August 29, 2019, 09:10:53 PM
Incursors, Infiltrators, Aggressors... minimal squads, of course. But then again I don't really play 40k (yet), but I think I can see some potential for it.

It can't transport Aggressors (who, I agree, were it possible = no brainer). Infiltrators and Incursors have zero use for a transport and are actually worse with one.

The only useful options are Intercessors, Reivers, and Hellblasters. Hellblasters I'd rather have on the board, blasting away. Reivers I can actually see as being useful, but Reivers are pretty awful so I can't see taking them.

So, Intercessors. What exactly are you getting with a transport option, though? They have enough range that they don't really need to move much. They don't especially love assault. Shelter from Turn 1 fire might be nice, but it's a steep price to pay for only that, and after that first turn...then what?

I just don't see its use, I'm afraid. Transports in general this edition are just so, so lackluster. In almost every instance I'd rather have more guys shooting. 
Title: Re: Wishlisting/Rumormill for New Marine Codex
Post by: Myen'Tal on August 29, 2019, 09:15:13 PM
I'm seeing your point now, guess I haven't read the rules thoroughly enough. I knew Infiltrators don't need them, but the idea of incursors make them sound like they need to get up close to use their weapons, an assumption on my part. And if Aggressors cannot take them, then yeah, I concede my point :).
Title: Re: Wishlisting/Rumormill for New Marine Codex
Post by: Wyddr on August 29, 2019, 09:16:25 PM
I'm seeing your point now, guess I haven't read the rules thoroughly enough. I knew Infiltrators don't need them, but the idea of incursors make them sound like they need to get up close to use their weapons, an assumption on my part. And if Aggressors cannot take them, then yeah, I concede my point :).

Incursors have the same deployment rules that Infiltrators do. If you want to get up close, well, you're already there.
Title: Re: Wishlisting/Rumormill for New Marine Codex
Post by: Grand Master Lomandalis on September 19, 2019, 09:40:34 PM
Let's take this thread in a new direction.

We've seen how strong the new supplements are making Chapters.  So, following the general ideas we've seen from those that emphasize a chapter's fighting style, what would you guys like to see from the remaining supplements for codex chapters?  Also, what would you like to see from the non-codex chapters?

Naturally, my focus is on how the Dark Angels would look when they get brought up to speed.  I think the first and obvious one would be that the release of the codex would be a perfect time to also release Primaris Terminators and Bikers.

As for rules, I like Grim Resolve as it is now, but include something to keep the focus on Plasma.  Perhaps along the lines of a pure Dark Angel army doesn't overheat, or all of their plasma gets +1 damage.  Additionally, instead of doctrines, I would love a focus on Deathwing and Ravenwing.

They could make them have something for pure Deathwing and Ravenwing lists.  Maybe Deathwing don't suffer a -1 to hit with power fists / hammers / heavy weapons, and Ravenwing get a 6++ if they move and no penalty to hit with Land Speeders.

Let's hear some other ideas!
Title: Re: Wishlisting/Rumormill for New Marine Codex
Post by: Wyddr on September 20, 2019, 06:33:10 AM
I very much doubt we'll ever see Primaris termies. That's what Gravis armor is.

I'm very excited to see what special stratagems and gear the Fists get. Ideally something to make them more durable in cover beyond their fairly lame warlord trait.

Besides the "boutique" chapters (Dark/Blood Angels, Space Wolves), what are we waiting on? Successor chapters?

I'd like to see Deathwatch have access to Phobos armor troops, but that's about it.
Title: Re: Wishlisting/Rumormill for New Marine Codex
Post by: faitherun (Fay-ith-er-run) on September 20, 2019, 01:50:11 PM
For DA - I would love to see them get 'Doctrines' but those be different for them. Same for Wolves.

Same concept - but call some something different.

If a DA army is 100% DA, then all Plasma shots add 1 to their damage and only overheat on an unmodified roll of a 1

Hunt Doctrine: All DA units add 1" to their run rolls. In addition, they may advance and fire assault weapons without penalty, and vehicles may move and fire heavy without penalty. Finally, all rapid fire and pistol weapons may be treated as assault.
Capture Doctrine: All DA units may add 1" to their charge rolls. They may also add 1 to hit rolls in close combat
Contain Doctrine: All DA units, other than flyers, gain the Objective Secured keyword. If they already had Objective Secured, each model counts as two when counting how many models are near an objective.



Still mulling over Wolves and BA