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Author Topic: The New Grots: Their Usefulness or Lack Thereof  (Read 4325 times)

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Offline Gutstikk

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Re: The New Grots: Their Usefulness or Lack Thereof
« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2007, 04:02:03 PM »
Hmm - hadn't considered a shokk attack screen, an especially good idea as the Mek is potentially quite dangerous to his own army. I'll think on that one a bit. Perhaps this is the best use for them I've yet heard...

Offline Aluinn

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Re: The New Grots: Their Usefulness or Lack Thereof
« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2007, 10:22:14 PM »
Quote
Hmm - hadn't considered a shokk attack screen, an especially good idea as the Mek is potentially quite dangerous to his own army. I'll think on that one a bit. Perhaps this is the best use for them I've yet heard...

Yeah that is an interesting idea. It also would help counteract the issue of the Mek being an IC and not being able to claim your starting table quarter/objective marker right outside your DZ, etc., which is a disadvantage he has as a stationary shooty unit compared to others. If you have Lootas along with him it's not as much a problem, but then you don't want your Lootas to be getting hit with ordnance templates :).

I still don't know what GW was thinking with them though. I really thought T3 was almost a given, in the absence of a price reduction. I mean, Fantasy Goblins are actually T3 and S3 IIRC, and all Grots absolutely needed was the Toughness upgrade.

I might take a full mob just to spite them, should decent plastics ever be forthcoming. And they would be able to randomly kill 'Fexes with the triple prods, which I suppose would be good for a laugh, if not exactly efficient.

Offline Andro Ist Keine Schwedischen

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Re: The New Grots: Their Usefulness or Lack Thereof
« Reply #22 on: December 17, 2007, 10:45:33 PM »
Grot-Prods are a little meh in my opinion.  Grabba Stikks are much, much better because it essentially makes any big monster unable to kill more the one Grot per turn.

Not to mention if you then get a Warboss with a Power Klaw into the action somehow...

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Offline Gutstikk

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Re: The New Grots: Their Usefulness or Lack Thereof
« Reply #23 on: December 18, 2007, 08:03:09 AM »
That's another really good thought... I'm mostly interested because I am trying to think up many potential "best builds" for Ork squads depending on the list as a whole. Grot-prods also raise the cost of the unit, whereas the grabbas are free.

Offline Andro Ist Keine Schwedischen

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Re: The New Grots: Their Usefulness or Lack Thereof
« Reply #24 on: December 18, 2007, 11:28:32 PM »
Yeah, it's best to just keep them really cheap and cheerful. 

It's not like the Grod-Prod will really do much more damage then the Runtherd's regular attacks anyway, and against things with high toughness they tend to have good armour as well.  But they tend not to have many attacks, so having the Grabba Stikk to make it even harder for the big gribbly to do any damage is always a good thing.

Best thing though...Runtherdz are going to be 'invisible' in their units, and thus you can just keep on removing those dirt cheap Grotz.  Ultimate tarpit for Carnifexes and the like.

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Offline Kiefatar

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Re: The New Grots: Their Usefulness or Lack Thereof
« Reply #25 on: December 19, 2007, 09:00:30 AM »
The problem is, without the prods, you have next to no chance of hurting the carnie. When the carnie/tyrant/big thing does kill a grot, which he's likely to do every turn, he'll win combat. Testing with the Grot's leadership is horrible, and the slaver squighounds will eat yet more grots to reroll.

So, even tarpitting, the tarpit will only last so long as the squighound does more damage to the unit than the MCs themselves.
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Offline Banned Solorg

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Re: The New Grots: Their Usefulness or Lack Thereof
« Reply #26 on: December 19, 2007, 10:25:28 AM »
Yeah, seems pretty certain that Grotz will not be the best choice for any new player to buy.  After many years on the Ork Board with many people clambering for "cheaper Grotz" or plastic Grotz, the problem is solved now... no Grotz!

Is it true that they don't go into hiding anymore?  Because I think a unit of Grotz will tend to vaporize a lot faster without the ability to go into hiding...!
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Offline Andro Ist Keine Schwedischen

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Re: The New Grots: Their Usefulness or Lack Thereof
« Reply #27 on: December 19, 2007, 11:17:59 AM »
The problem is, without the prods, you have next to no chance of hurting the carnie. When the carnie/tyrant/big thing does kill a grot, which he's likely to do every turn, he'll win combat. Testing with the Grot's leadership is horrible, and the slaver squighounds will eat yet more grots to reroll.

1/ Use a Warboss with a Power Klaw to do the actual damage, if you need to do any at all.

2/ 66% hits and 84% wounds is still only 55% or so kills a turn against the Grots.  So around half the time it will be a drawn combat anyway.

3/ You'll be using the Runtherdz' leadership, which while isn't amazing is still not too bad and will pass more then half the time.  And when you fail, you get a reroll at the expensive of a couple of Grotz.  Not a bad deal.

4/ Even if the Monsterous Creature manages to destroy the unit, it won't of made its points back and it would of been tied up for a good portion of the game.  And it wasn't able to tear apart anything important in your army.

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Offline Kiefatar

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Re: The New Grots: Their Usefulness or Lack Thereof
« Reply #28 on: December 19, 2007, 12:50:50 PM »
How big a squad of grots are you consider using? If its small, your not going to remove all of their attacks, and then when the MC or Dread wins, they might outnumber you. Ld 7 isn't going to stick around very much, let alone once the modifiers start stacking even with the rerolls. If its big, then you spent a lot of points on a distraction that sure the MC/Dread may not have earned their points back... maybe.... but at the same time, is completely or likely to be completely undamaged and thus still worth their full points. If your using the warboss to take out the big things, again, more points into a unnessesary combination that may or may not work.

Grabba sticks specificly state only base contact, so you may not be able to get all of your slavers in base contact with the horde of grots. Also reducing their impact. Same applys to the warboss trying to walk into the combat.

For the price of your warboss/grot horde with grabba sticks, which is a gamble at best and may have one or both killed off, you could just as easily bought probably in the range of 15-20 boys with nob with PK, which will almost certainly beat down anything in the game, save possibly the Nightbringer C'Tan, and do it before being knocked below half even.
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Offline Andro Ist Keine Schwedischen

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Re: The New Grots: Their Usefulness or Lack Thereof
« Reply #29 on: December 19, 2007, 01:10:02 PM »
You can take three Runtherdz without maxing out on Grots, thus you can have a unit like this:

3 Runtherdz - 3 Grabba Stikks
15 Gretchin
~75pts

This will tarpit any Monsterous Creature with ease.  The Runtherdz can stay at the front of the unit without fear of being killed, since they aren't independant characters and can't be picked out.

And you can get a Warboss into the combat easily either by having him lead the Mob (from the front) or by putting him on a Warbike and coming in from behind the Monsterous Creature.  It's very unlikely that you won't be able to leave room for him (since you can always judge your assault so you can only get the Runtherdz and one or two Grots into base contact without much trouble.

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Offline Kiefatar

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Re: The New Grots: Their Usefulness or Lack Thereof
« Reply #30 on: December 19, 2007, 01:22:47 PM »
Your interpretation of the grot mob ruling is faulty... at least I think so.

You 'must take' a runtherd for every 10 grots, but it doesn't give you the option of buying runtherds any other way. RAW, it would mean for every full 10 grots, you have to have 1. So, 2 at 20, 3 at 30.

I would probably let people get away with taking 1 for every block of 10ish, so 1-10 would mean one, 11-20 would get you 2, but that may not be RAW either. But this is probably a judgment call more than anything, and in either case. 75pts + Warboss > 15 Orks + PK Nob.

I have other uses for my PK Biker Boss than to go after MCs.
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Offline Andro Ist Keine Schwedischen

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Re: The New Grots: Their Usefulness or Lack Thereof
« Reply #31 on: December 19, 2007, 03:10:49 PM »
Unit Composition: 10-30 Gretchin and 1-3 Runtherdz.  The fact it later states you must have one Runtherd per 10 Gretchin merely means that you need to have at least a 1:10 ratio.

That's how practically everyone else I've asked sees it as well.

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Offline Kiefatar

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Re: The New Grots: Their Usefulness or Lack Thereof
« Reply #32 on: December 19, 2007, 03:47:43 PM »
Even if you can min/max it to 10 grots and 3 runtherds (I still feel that the unit cost/composition is vague), at some 60 points, it still probably won't perform the way you think.

More power to you if you can get it to work, but I doubt that. The new codex is really all about the boyz.
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Offline Andro Ist Keine Schwedischen

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Re: The New Grots: Their Usefulness or Lack Thereof
« Reply #33 on: December 19, 2007, 05:06:26 PM »
I intend to put theory into practice, don't worry.  I'll even report back my findings once I do.

And if it completely flops then I'll be a big enough man to say I was wrong.  Honest.

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Offline Cpt. Banjo

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Re: The New Grots: Their Usefulness or Lack Thereof
« Reply #34 on: December 20, 2007, 07:01:38 AM »
The problem is, without the prods, you have next to no chance of hurting the carnie. When the carnie/tyrant/big thing does kill a grot, which he's likely to do every turn, he'll win combat. Testing with the Grot's leadership is horrible, and the slaver squighounds will eat yet more grots to reroll.

So, even tarpitting, the tarpit will only last so long as the squighound does more damage to the unit than the MCs themselves.

Isn't that the kind of the point?

They're not Nobz afterall.

These guys are basically orkish conscripts; intended to die and not do much else.
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Offline HellecticMojo

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Re: The New Grots: Their Usefulness or Lack Thereof
« Reply #35 on: December 24, 2007, 05:45:35 PM »
The thing is that the Orks themselves are conscripts as they are designed to die in droves too. except the fact that they can actually fight back.

about Carnies not being able to kill grots enough. what about crushing claws? wouldn't that help balance things out?
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Re: The New Grots: Their Usefulness or Lack Thereof
« Reply #36 on: December 24, 2007, 10:00:53 PM »
How often do you see Crushing Claws on a Carnifex these days?  The sheer cost alone makes people just take Scything Talons instead, if they even take any combat upgrades at all!  Gunfexes are by far the most common TMC around, and they lack the sheer number of attacks to defeat any enemy squad in combat.

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Offline IncubiLord

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Re: The New Grots: Their Usefulness or Lack Thereof
« Reply #37 on: January 13, 2008, 04:26:27 AM »
I've been looking at the new codex, and I thought this thread might be a good place for an idea or two of my own...


First off:
The 'Mob Rule' applies to Runtherds, and nothing in the Ork codex says a grot is not an Ork. In fact, the introduction of the book classes gretchin and snotlings as 'sub-races' of Ork, implying that they count. You could well argue that Gretchin mobs with Runtherds are normally Fearless - Runtherds don't mind sacrificing more grots until the meat-shields start running low...

If you really can min-max Runtherds (and I think the rules suggest you can), a Warboss accompanied by 3 Runtherds and 10 Grots might be a very potent assault unit coming out of a Battlewagon - and you were going to have a Warboss anyways, weren't you?


However, I like the looks of using Grotsnik when using Gretchin.

Grotsnik joins a unit of 30 Grots + 3 Runtherds = Fearless Grots with Feel No Pain (not that they'll ever benefit from it, but still...) + Cyborks wherever you want.
That tarpit-of-MC-killing works extra-well this way, and who doesn't like Cyborks?

Cybork Grots.
If nothing else, these guys would be incredibly funny to see on the field - and they'd be a riot in Apocolypse games. All those instant-kill weapons flying around, and a 95-point block of Gretchin+Runtherd can survive being hit.
"Your Volcano Cannon hit my Gretchin? Well, only twelve members of the unit survived being hit. Yes, I know it auto-wounds with no Armor Save allowed..."  ;D

For the highest amusement factor, have Grotsnik champion some Cybork Gretchin and march into the Imperial Guard's massed lasguns.
"60 shots? You hit 30? 20 Wounds? Let's see, 6 Cybork saves, and 7 FNP saves... You killed 7. Is it just me, or do flashlights suck?"  :P

Yeah, for the price increase you could have almost three times as many gretchin, but lets face it - normal gretchin disappear at the rate of "how many did you have there?" in a turn (and that would eat up another two Troops slots in normal games).
You can have Cybork Grots with a fair Invulnerable save for less than ten points.


Maybe I'm just one of the guys with a soft spot for grots, though...

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Offline Gutstikk

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Re: The New Grots: Their Usefulness or Lack Thereof
« Reply #38 on: January 13, 2008, 11:25:38 AM »
That is actually a third really good point. Sure, not for every game, but... the fact that the combo works at all would make it very surprising to opponents when they ran into it.

I like the weird stuff like this that is coming out of the new codex. So now we have three pretty interesting uses for grotz!

Offline Andro Ist Keine Schwedischen

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Re: The New Grots: Their Usefulness or Lack Thereof
« Reply #39 on: January 13, 2008, 11:38:32 AM »
1/ MC Tarpits / kill assists

2/ Table quarter / objective holding /stealing

3/ Cybork Grotz

4/ Minefield clearing

Though to be honest, regular Orks are better at two of those four things.  One of those (minefield clearing) will be uncommon. 

But I still maintain that Grotz will be great at tarpitting Carnifexes and leaving them open to being krumped by a Warboss with a Power Klaw.

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