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Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re: Religion
« Reply #40 on: August 6, 2008, 05:13:47 PM »
True, but that is not what I ment. I ment that most of the people are always going to be in need of a religion. A loud voice of atheists just makes them stronger in their faith.

How are you going to substantiate that? Wants and needs are too separate conditions and you're saying people need religion.

Is it really?

Yes. :)

Of course not. But it could be a helluva lot more brutal place to be if more people were raised to believe that the one with most money/stuff/lovers/friends when dies, wins.

That's misrepresenting the argument and falling into the strawman of those without faith being without a moral compass.
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Re: Religion
« Reply #41 on: August 6, 2008, 06:05:46 PM »
It's also a brutal place because people think their invisible best friend is the only right one, or that the invisible creature commands people to destroy certain nations, races, or sexual "deviants."  It is not religion or megalomania that causes problems, it is either one (or both at the same time) taken to extremes.  Extreme religion, power, authority- even extreme water intake- can lead to death and suffering for the self or others.  It's the extremes that are bad, and believing that it is a lack of belief that leads to immorality is one of those incorrect extremes.

Many people also found comfort in tree worship.  It's not the tree worship that is vital, but satisfying some other need, and it can be satisfied in a more rational way.

And that is what I mean by no need for faith.  We know Zeus doesn't exist, that it gives comfort to some people to think he's up there zapping the unworthy does not mean there isn't a much, much better way (yes, apparently, there is a pantheon revival of sorts, as if it's any worse than worshiping elephants or santa clause, I also hear there's a revival in the ancient Germanic rituals). 

That faith is seen as a supreme test is not a good thing.  I know that I cannot fly, if I step of a building I will fall like a stone.  To conquer that rational belief through faith, to believe that I can fly is not an accomplishment but regression.
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Offline Irandrura

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Re: Religion
« Reply #42 on: August 7, 2008, 04:22:10 AM »
We know Zeus doesn't exist,

No, we don't. We have no actual proof to justify that belief. We merely have no evidence that Zeus does exist. Pure reason would demand that we take a position of agnosticism and state that we don't know whether or not Zeus exists. Asserting that he certainly does not exist is every bit as much of a leap of faith as the assertion that he certainly does.

But absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, as they say. Occam's Razor is about utility, not truth. Lack of belief in the existence of Zeus and company is rational enough. Positive belief in their non-existence, though, is not.
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Offline Wuxiong

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Re: Religion
« Reply #43 on: August 7, 2008, 05:15:44 AM »
The reference on Nazi Germany was from the book entitled 'God is not Great', it documented very interesting information on the link between the Nazis and the Catholic Church. Anyway, I hardly got time for a debate, I have lot of studies to do.

Offline Exalted One

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Re: Religion
« Reply #44 on: August 7, 2008, 05:20:35 AM »
How are you going to substantiate that? Wants and needs are too separate conditions and you're saying people need religion.

I'm not saying that ALL people need religion, Just that most of them do. Many MANY people need religion daily to get by. For example, Catholicism conciders a suicide a mortal sin. Facing the same hardship a devout catholist wouldn't propably commit suicide as easily as an atheist.

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That's misrepresenting the argument and falling into the strawman of those without faith being without a moral compass .

Again, I'm not saying that ALL or even any of those without faith are without a moral compass, I'm saying that the moral compass would then be a bit different. That basically all crimes are made under the assumption, that the perb does not get caught. Many crimes are executed with little fear of getting caught, but many people are more worried about their souls, than getting caught. And again, I'm NOT saying, that this applies to all people, or even all religions. I'm saying, that religions have dictated countless lives, and they still do, even the effect is lessening.  There's always going to be people who need religion.

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Morality is separate from religious practice.

But isn't the moral differences in religions the very reason why some religions keep having constant conflict? If all religions had the same morals, there would be very little to fight about.

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That faith is seen as a supreme test is not a good thing.  I know that I cannot fly, if I step of a building I will fall like a stone.  To conquer that rational belief through faith, to believe that I can fly is not an accomplishment but regression.

True enough, having faith in something completely absurd sounds funny to us, but what about having faith in more sensible things. Suppose one would lose once lifepartner in an accident. Not knowing what happened, one would have a choise to think one is free to move on, or hope (have faith) that the other one is still alive, just out of reach at the moment. Does that kind of faith lessen you as well?
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Offline Irandrura

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Re: Religion
« Reply #45 on: August 7, 2008, 05:31:17 AM »
The reference on Nazi Germany was from the book entitled 'God is not Great', it documented very interesting information on the link between the Nazis and the Catholic Church.

You know, you might not want to look at Christopher Hitchens for an unbiased look at religion in society...

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True enough, having faith in something completely absurd sounds funny to us, but what about having faith in more sensible things.

Oi, I never said that.
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Offline Full Metal Geneticist

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Re: Religion
« Reply #46 on: August 7, 2008, 06:21:04 AM »
No, we don't. We have no actual proof to justify that belief. We merely have no evidence that Zeus does exist. Pure reason would demand that we take a position of agnosticism and state that we don't know whether or not Zeus exists. Asserting that he certainly does not exist is every bit as much of a leap of faith as the assertion that he certainly does.

Actually considering we know that all religion is a man made construct, one can happily state that he does not exist. Much like the tooth fair, easter bunny and the fire breathing dragon. There is a greater chance of really improbable cryptids such as the loch ness monster existing.

But absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, as they say. Occam's Razor is about utility, not truth. Lack of belief in the existence of Zeus and company is rational enough. Positive belief in their non-existence, though, is not.

Then you must believe in Santa Clause. Or the Tooth Fairy. They are similar "entities" that we have created. How do you know you are not placating those two entities with the milk and cookies and the "tooth ritual"? After all you may fall prey to Santa's helper who drowns you because you have been bad or have a spell cast on you because you have not done the appropriate tooth ritual...

@Exalted One

People do not need religion. The people who say they need it are "told" from day one to use it as a crutch. That without "god" they are incapable of anything. The people who do not commit suicide because of their faith are unhappy. Catholics are just as likely to commit suicide. If not more, because of "loss of faith". They suddenly lose their crutch and cannot stand. We can achieve more if these people sought actual physical help and someone to listen like the Samaritans or just a guy in a bar. 

As for morality, the morality of most faith is ancient and the moral standards that we hold ourselves by have far far exceeded them. The problem with unchanging morality is precisely that. The behaviour of individuals in these books is more akin to war criminals than the behaviour of "moral compass". Any morality we have as a society is constantly changing depending on the society at the time. Religion does not give us a moral compass any more than being part of any society does.


It is pernicious nonsense that feeds into a rising wave of irrationality which threatens to overwhelm the hard-won gains of the Enlightenment and the scientific method. We risk as a society slipping back into a state of magical thinking when made-up science passes for rational discourse. I would compare it to witchcraft but honestly that's insulting to witches.

Offline Sir Sam Vimes

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Re: Religion
« Reply #47 on: August 7, 2008, 07:20:50 AM »
I know that my post will get lost in the epic struggle between the great discussion Gods, but I feel that I have to say this...

People do not need religion.
I do. Even if I try I can never settle with the "we simply don't know" answer, I need something to believe in, be that easter bunny, Jesus or the flying spaghetti monster. I'm not a religious type of person, but I still prefer living a "lie" than to live in doubt about everything.

Quote
The people who say they need it are "told" from day one to use it as a crutch.
Save those who come up with the religions in the first place.

I agree that I was told what to believe in (by my grandfather), but I've recently realized that our common religion was what kept my family together. For us it was all about heritage and traditions, God and Jesus came second. So I honestly wouldn't call religion a crutch.

Quote
As for morality, the morality of most faith is ancient and the moral standards that we hold ourselves by have far far exceeded them.

Thou shalt not kill. Thou shalt not steal.

Yeah, those are sooo last season :P

Offline Irandrura

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Re: Religion
« Reply #48 on: August 7, 2008, 07:58:33 AM »
Then you must believe in Santa Clause. Or the Tooth Fairy. They are similar "entities" that we have created. How do you know you are not placating those two entities with the milk and cookies and the "tooth ritual"? After all you may fall prey to Santa's helper who drowns you because you have been bad or have a spell cast on you because you have not done the appropriate tooth ritual...

We've been over this before. Not believing something doesn't exist isn't equivalent to believing it does exist. 'Not disbelieve' is not synonymous with 'believe'. With the Zeus example I was indicating that pure rationality would have us neither affirm nor deny his existence due to a lack of any convincing evidence either way.

You seem to be mistaking my stance for 'we can't prove they don't exist, therefore they do'. That is not what I'm saying. I'm saying 'we can't prove they don't exist, and we can't prove that they do exist, therefore we cannot claim either that they do or don't exist'. From a standpoint of scientific reason, of course.
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Offline Unscientific Postscript

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Re: Religion
« Reply #49 on: August 7, 2008, 08:26:17 AM »
I'm just personally glad that we could rehash the "absence of evidence" argument: it's been all of five minutes since you two last had it. We seem to have had it every single religion thread, at least once every page, for as long as I've been a member.

Couldn't we all just agree that Irandrura's is the correct position? Can't we all just live in peace and harmony and, you know... get along? :D
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Offline Killing Time

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Re: Religion
« Reply #50 on: August 7, 2008, 08:49:28 AM »
I do. Even if I try I can never settle with the "we simply don't know" answer, I need something to believe in, be that easter bunny, Jesus or the flying spaghetti monster. I'm not a religious type of person, but I still prefer living a "lie" than to live in doubt about everything.
I think that's more a pretty sad indictment on the state of peoples lives than a real argument for religion.
Curiosity about the unknown is one of things that brought us down out of the trees, and could be argued is a defining part of what makes us human. To suppress that instinct with fairytales seems backward.

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Save those who come up with the religions in the first place.
Well it could equally be said that they're the ones for whom the crutch fits the best...and equally will suffer the worst when it's taken from them since their need is greatest.

Quote
I agree that I was told what to believe in (by my grandfather), but I've recently realized that our common religion was what kept my family together. For us it was all about heritage and traditions, God and Jesus came second. So I honestly wouldn't call religion a crutch.
Well there you have it. It's the social aspect and tradition, which could equally be supplanted by any other regular family bonding. Shared meal times, supporting the local sports team....these are equally cohesive. And the list goes on.


Quote
Thou shalt not kill. Thou shalt not steal.

Yeah, those are sooo last season :P
But these morals tend to be universal, whereas the specific moralities found in various different holy books tend to emphasise concepts which are centuries or millenia out of date.

Kosher (or Halal) diets, for instance, have been argued to have originated from the difficulties of keeping unspoiled foods in a hot climate without the benefit of modern refrigeration techniques.
Keeping meat and dairy produce apart would make a lot of sense to prevent cross contamination, but is now essentially obsolete. But because it is a religious commandment, sales of refrigerators are double in Israel.

We've been over this before. Not believing something doesn't exist isn't equivalent to believing it does exist. 'Not disbelieve' is not synonymous with 'believe'. With the Zeus example I was indicating that pure rationality would have us neither affirm nor deny his existence due to a lack of any convincing evidence either way.
This is right.
Pure atheism is as much an issue of faith as any religion.
I admit that in the strictest sense I'm an agnostic. It's just that my agnosticism is so strongly in favour of atheism that for all intents and purposes I am an atheist.

Quote
You seem to be mistaking my stance for 'we can't prove they don't exist, therefore they do'. That is not what I'm saying. I'm saying 'we can't prove they don't exist, and we can't prove that they do exist, therefore we cannot claim either that they do or don't exist'. From a standpoint of scientific reason, of course.
Except that the field is gradational.
You would have believe that there can be only atheism - agnosticism - theism, with the total lack of evidence pointing firmly to the middle ground for anyone without some kind of faith (either positive or negative).
I'd argue that there certainly is evidence for some sort of atheistic slant. Historical proof of the incomplete and highly edited nature of most major holy texts.
Scientific proof of the inaccuracies and impossibilites in most major holy texts.
And moralistic arguments that render most major religions either obsolete or even amoral by the standards of our time.

These things weigh heavily in favour of atheism (for me), though I agree that it is scientifically impossible to cross the final line.

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Offline Full Metal Geneticist

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Re: Religion
« Reply #51 on: August 7, 2008, 09:12:36 AM »
Except that is idiotic. We would need to hedge all bets and start sacrificing people to the Smoking Jaguar and other crazy gods again because "we have no proof of him not existing". Remember the thing in science is the onus of proof is on the claimant. And as stated, the rituals of Santa Clause and indeed the Tooth Fairy would need to be satiated on the basis of "we have no proof for them not existing".

The most important thing in science is that the onus is proof rests on the claimant, not on the people demanding proof for said outrageous claim. If I say I have acheived cold fusion, I would have to provide proof. Not say "Just cause you cannot prove that I have not discovered Cold fusion, does not mean that I have discovered it".

I do. Even if I try I can never settle with the "we simply don't know" answer, I need something to believe in, be that easter bunny, Jesus or the flying spaghetti monster. I'm not a religious type of person, but I still prefer living a "lie" than to live in doubt about everything.

Which makes people easy to lie to. After all, if you believe one "relatively unlikely thing without checking" then its easier to feed more "unlikely things". The "doubt" as you call it is what made mankind what we are today. Because we had doubts we tried to find out how things worked. Perhaps its "not the gift of prometheus", perhaps its just the combustion of materials. Its really "sad" that people can think like this. Its a good thing we as a species never thought like this else we would never have left the forest. Our curiosity and our unwillingness to accept "just so" explanations is pretty much the reason we are here today.


Save those who come up with the religions in the first place.

And you think its one man who came up with that? No. Its a whole bunch of people. Our faith comes from the unknown and people making up reasons for things because these events were out of our scale of understanding.


I agree that I was told what to believe in (by my grandfather), but I've recently realized that our common religion was what kept my family together. For us it was all about heritage and traditions, God and Jesus came second. So I honestly wouldn't call religion a crutch.

you just stated that religion is what held your family together. You are describing family, not a broken vase that needs glue. Do you really think your family is that weak that it needs superstition to hold it together?


Thou shalt not kill. Thou shalt not steal.

Yeah, those are sooo last season :P

Read the bible, see what moses does just after he gets the 10 commandments. Genocide much? The OT after the provision of the 10 commandments turns into a horror show of genocide and rape commited by "god's chosen people". Hell the "bad" egyptians show more mercy than god who kills people often for no really good reason. Its like watching the Texas Chainsaw Massacre. Leatherface is not the good guy!

On top of which do you think people were stealing and murdering prior to the issue of the 10 commandments? That none of the other cultures around them such as Babylon and Egypt had no laws against murder and stealing and perjury? The only thing remarkable about those rules is the horrendous laws against thought crime, intellectualism and secularism.


It is pernicious nonsense that feeds into a rising wave of irrationality which threatens to overwhelm the hard-won gains of the Enlightenment and the scientific method. We risk as a society slipping back into a state of magical thinking when made-up science passes for rational discourse. I would compare it to witchcraft but honestly that's insulting to witches.

Offline Sir Sam Vimes

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Re: Religion
« Reply #52 on: August 7, 2008, 09:24:43 AM »
you just stated that religion is what held your family together. You are describing family, not a broken vase that needs glue. Do you really think your family is that weak that it needs superstition to hold it together?
As I said:
Quote
For us it was all about heritage and traditions, God and Jesus came second.
In my family, my grandfather was the only one who believed that God existed, for the rest of us churchgoing and such only ment heritage and tradition and it was one of few things that we did together as a family. You can hate this fact as much as you want, but religion kept us together and ultimately saved us as a family. Hard to swallow, huh?

Quote
Read the bible, see what moses does just after he gets the 10 commandments. Genocide much? The OT after the provision of the 10 commandments turns into a horror show of genocide and rape commited by "god's chosen people". Hell the "bad" egyptians show more mercy than god who kills people often for no really good reason. Its like watching the Texas Chainsaw Massacre. Leatherface is not the good guy!
Basic human behaviour. Happened back then, still happening today. With or without religion.

Offline Killing Time

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Re: Religion
« Reply #53 on: August 7, 2008, 09:34:05 AM »
In my family, my grandfather was the only one who believed that God existed, for the rest of us churchgoing and such only ment heritage and tradition and it was one of few things that we did together as a family. You can hate this fact as much as you want, but religion kept us together and ultimately saved us as a family. Hard to swallow, huh?

NO! Routine kept your family together. Regular community activity, possibly combined with the fear of the social repurcussions of family breakdown.
These might have hitched a ride on the local superstition of choice, but could just have easily  cohabited with the neighborhood scout pack or grandma's needlepoint circle.

This isn't religion.
Religion is the faith based belief in a supernatural deity.....and you've just admitted that only your Grandfather subscribed to this.

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Offline Sir Sam Vimes

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Re: Religion
« Reply #54 on: August 7, 2008, 09:57:00 AM »
NO! Routine kept your family together. Regular community activity, possibly combined with the fear of the social repurcussions of family breakdown.
Regularly eating meals together is routine. Didn't help us.
Regularly going on vacation is routine. Didn't help us either.
So no, any other activity didn't help us.

Maybe it was God who looked down upon us and gave us salvation? :P

Quote
This isn't religion.
Religion is the faith based belief in a supernatural deity.....and you've just admitted that only your Grandfather subscribed to this.
So... according to you he should've been the only one who was saved? ???

Offline Full Metal Geneticist

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Re: Religion
« Reply #55 on: August 7, 2008, 10:41:01 AM »
Regularly eating meals together is routine. Didn't help us.
Regularly going on vacation is routine. Didn't help us either.
So no, any other activity didn't help us.

That is what you think. If you define family as the grouping of individuals by "just mere faith" then your family actually has real problems. A family is where everyone gets together irregardless of arguments. You said eating together and going on vacation together... Hell my family and me argue at food and vacations. We have different ideas on the concept of fun. I like my food varied, they don't. I like my vacations interesting, they like sitting around and talking to family.


Maybe it was God who looked down upon us and gave us salvation? :P

I see. So god is playing Ricki Lake while people are dying by the million across the world in Africa. Nice to see he has his priorities right. Or you just lucked out.


So... according to you he should've been the only one who was saved? ???

No. What we are saying there is another reason. Its probably religion that made the air so hostile in the first place due to a difference in faith and people being forced to follow a faith to make one person happy.

Basic human behaviour. Happened back then, still happening today. With or without religion.


Except its "God" who is telling them to do all those horrible things such as "kill everyone but the virgins... You can rape those!". As a source of morality its extremely weak when compared to how far we have gone.


It is pernicious nonsense that feeds into a rising wave of irrationality which threatens to overwhelm the hard-won gains of the Enlightenment and the scientific method. We risk as a society slipping back into a state of magical thinking when made-up science passes for rational discourse. I would compare it to witchcraft but honestly that's insulting to witches.

Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re: Religion
« Reply #56 on: August 7, 2008, 10:49:45 AM »
I'm not saying that ALL people need religion, Just that most of them do. Many MANY people need religion daily to get by. For example, Catholicism conciders a suicide a mortal sin. Facing the same hardship a devout catholist wouldn't propably commit suicide as easily as an atheist.

You're mistaking need for want again. That's also an unfounded statement concerning suicide and atheism. Considering atheism's "one roll of the die" aspect your conclusion is confused.

Again, I'm not saying that ALL or even any of those without faith are without a moral compass, I'm saying that the moral compass would then be a bit different.

While someone may conflate their morality with their religion this does not make someone who doesn't deficient in any manner. Everyone's moral compass is a little different from everyone else's. You're not going to go down the no real Scotsman path are you?

I'm saying, that religions have dictated countless lives, and they still do, even the effect is lessening.  There's always going to be people who need religion.

There's that need word again. There's always going to be people who decide they "need" their drug of choice.

But isn't the moral differences in religions the very reason why some religions keep having constant conflict? If all religions had the same morals, there would be very little to fight about.

The history of the entire world says otherwise. There will always be conflict of one form or another. If the entire world followed a single religion the conflicts would not suddenly cease.
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Offline Irandrura

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Re: Religion
« Reply #57 on: August 7, 2008, 11:01:46 AM »
Except that is idiotic. We would need to hedge all bets and start sacrificing people to the Smoking Jaguar and other crazy gods again because "we have no proof of him not existing".

*sigh*

No, FMG, we wouldn't. Not disbelieving something is not the same as believing something. I don't believe in every boogeyman you can name. I believe that every boogeyman you can name could conceivably exist. That is not the same as believing that it does exist. It's only hypothetically possible, and I don't know it isn't. Neither do I know it is.

Science, as you describe it, takes a basically instrumentalist view of truth. A theory can be considered 'true' if it is useful. That is why we don't multiply entities unnecessarily; we take the simplest answer because its simplicity makes it useful, not because it makes it true.

What I am doing is admitting the reasonable limits of my own knowledge. Your 'Smoking Jaguar' could conceivably exist. Now I'm not going to run around saying that it does and we must all immediately start sacrificing babies or anything. All I'm saying is that we don't know enough to definitively rule out the possibility of that jaguar being real. If we did know enough to definitively rule that out, well, then I'm sure you could tell me why it is impossible that the jaguar exist.

No, I think I will remain open-minded about possibilities I can neither confirm nor deny.
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Offline Killing Time

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Re: Religion
« Reply #58 on: August 7, 2008, 11:29:07 AM »
Regularly eating meals together is routine. Didn't help us.
Regularly going on vacation is routine. Didn't help us either.
So no, any other activity didn't help us.

Maybe it was God who looked down upon us and gave us salvation? :P
What exactly makes you think that it was the religious activity that saved your family?
You say you were doing all of the above, including going to church.
Why is it that the church helped but not the rest?

That's kind of like having a headache.
You drop a couple of asprins, drink a pint of water, hop backwards around a silver horseshoe three times while humming the star spangled banner, and then take a half hour nap.
When you wake up your headache has miraculously gone.
Well amphetamine parrot. It must have been the  trick with the silver horseshoe.

Quote
This isn't religion.
Religion is the faith based belief in a supernatural deity.....and you've just admitted that only your Grandfather subscribed to this.
So... according to you he should've been the only one who was saved? ???
[/quote]
No. I'm saying that if there was a God then only your Grandfather would have been saved. The fact that a bunch of faithless, fairweather, lip service pseudochristians managed to get in on the action would suggest that some other force was possibly at work.

Dizzy

Offline CaptainZahariel

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Re: Religion
« Reply #59 on: August 7, 2008, 11:36:04 AM »
I'll just have my say.

Back in ancient times people used to say that jesus existed and other prophets or sons of god.

YOU NEVER EVER HERE ABOUT THINGS LIKE THAT NOW.

Religion is simply something people cling to in the darkness and hardship of life,yet they have no proof of gods and miracle workers nowadays.

So,simply put you may believe in religion,even when its not there-thus you are desperate

 


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