Topic: The things wrong with 40k of Today

[fillerbunny]

It's a building! What do you mean it's only soft cover?! Aaarggghh.
Yeah, don't miss that very much. I don't miss my Chief Librarian always dying because his displacer field always took him into the vortex grenade he just threw the turn before..... Or grenades that stayed on the table and you had to roll to see what they did each and every turn. That was a problem when you just threw thirty odd blind grenades....

[Grand Master Lomandalis]

ya know, for all the guys that wish 40k would go back to second edition...just a reminder that armybuilder has files that allow u to build a 2nd edition army, so if u want to play it so badly play against ur friends with it!  and just stop be-atching!  from what i hear, 2nd edition was so freaking complicated that a 1200 point game would last for 4 hours...now, i play 2000pt games and i can have em done in 2 hours flat...

[Rasmus]

I would not return to 2nd Ed, and I am sure that after a few games most people would turn from it as well. When 3rd Ed was released there was a lot of wailing and moaning about how terrible the new rules were, but the fact of the matter is that 3rd ed lets you play more, faster, and with more ease, than 2nd ed did. Sure, there are a lot of problems with 3rd ed, and some neat things about 2nd ed, so perhaps a step backwards would be in order. 4th ed could be 2.5th ed, or something.

[_Spellbound_]

The new assault rules are ok.  They've wiped meltaguns practically from the face of the earth, but they're decent.

The new vehicle rules are crap.  Ordnance becomes even more of a gamble, even if you can move and shoot it [which is crap, I like the image of a tank crew boltering down and firing an enormous gun], dreadnoughts become unstoppable against almost anything [although granted with the new assault rules a power fist weilding character or witchblade warlock stands a good chance of beating it since they can't be singled out.  Power fists will be all over the place like greatweapons in fantasy], and CLOSED TOPPED TRANSPORTS ARE DESTROYED.

A marine assault army can use bikes and assault squads.

A chaos army that's anything other than undivided?  Ummmmmm....we could have....42 point flying aspiring champion chosen? 42 point flying possessed?  40 point bikes that can't take advantage of cover and die just as easily as a grot to heavy weapons?  No wait, the grot can take cover, nevermind.

I've heard a rumor that vehicles may still be able to move 6", unload and the unit inside can assault.  This will tone things down a little and make the new rules not as bad.  A unit has to be able to unload and assault.  They really need to be able to move, unload, and assault, but if I have to take stationary or not at all, I'll choose stationary.

TAR:  A-ok.
TVR:  utter crap.  The only thing I like is move and fire S5 or less.  Tanks can now become mobile weapons platforms, as they're designed to be.

-Spellbound

[Lord of Althanis]

I would not return to 2nd Ed, and I am sure that after a few games most people would turn from it as well. When 3rd Ed was released there was a lot of wailing and moaning about how terrible the new rules were, but the fact of the matter is that 3rd ed lets you play more, faster, and with more ease, than 2nd ed did. Sure, there are a lot of problems with 3rd ed, and some neat things about 2nd ed, so perhaps a step backwards would be in order. 4th ed could be 2.5th ed, or something.

Exactly. 2nd edition was overly complex, but the relation between rules and what they represent was very well done, and there were some things that make it really good. If it were possible to recycle that stuff in a 4th-ed-ish style, the game would be improved a lot.

[WhiteCross]

Okay, the new rules are not crap.

Firing main weapons plus s5 or less on the movem is good, like you said

The transport rules are meant to slow down armies, like the Blood Angles, whose Rhinos can practically barrel across the board and be in your face in one turn. They might not be the best, but it makes more sense fluffwise.

Ordinance is awesome. IG and SMurf players should be very happy that from now on, you don't have to sit and wait for the enemy to come within range of your Demolisher or Vindicator.

Maybe I'm biased becuase my Eldar go for firepower over assault, but I don't think they're all that bad

[Camo]

         I think the point of the new vehicle rules is to make veihcles be more than sitting firing platforms, i mean with the rules as they are the guard player is extremely reluctant to move his leman russ as it means he get's 1 heavy bolter's firepower, i think either having a BS battlecannon or 3 heavy bolter's will make it a more desirable thing to do, also it will make the vindicator far more used, as now people can sit about 30 inches away and shoot it and it can't fire back at all.
         This said there are a couple of things i don't like the not charging out of rhinos is a bit harsh, maybe not at full speed, or they don't get +1 attack for charging or something, and getting pinned after the tank explodes, although admitaddly fluffy, is crippling to any mounted army, I believe a pinning test is more balanced.

        ilpalazzo if you really hate the rules that much why don't you and your buddy's make your own rules there's noone stopping you from creating house rules.
         

[_Spellbound_]

I like the vindicator how it is.  It's a fear factor.  I used mine to create a 24" circle of "don't come near me", and it worked wonderfully.  Anyone who's played Battlefleet Gothic and uses torpedoes knows that far more than the damage they cause is the effect of the damage they MIGHT cause.  Well-aimed torpedoes can herd the enemy into positions where you want them to go, or split their fleet and make them vulnerable.

Blood Angels are the only force that has that super-long distance rhino charge that gets them into combat on the first turn.

So....um.....why not just.....take it away?  I have no problem with their rhinos moving further.  But I do not think they should be able to unload after 12".  NOBODY should be allowed to unload after 12".  It's really not that big of a problem.  Nobody cares about my chaos rhinos moving 12.  Nobody cares about my imperial rhinos moving 12.  I've never heard any complaints.  What I hear complaints about are the Blood Angels, so if they're such a problem, change THEM!

And yes, it seems nice to move and fire the vindicator.  But when it scatters 12" back onto your own troops, you'll think otherwise.

-Spellbound

[TuernRedvenom]

NOBODY should be allowed to unload after 12"

nonsense, anyone that says that DE are unbalanced because their paper-armoured raiders still get to move 12" and disembark and assault needs his/her head examined.
TVR needs to be toned down a little bit (like allowing 6" movement+disembark+charge and the aforementionned pinning test, maybe with -1 modifier, instead of auto-pin).
TAR is big improvement over 3rd IMHO.
Oh yes and 2nd ed was crap.

[Mr.Peanut (Turtleproof)]

"Now, with stand and shoot they would stay right where they were, but wisely try to gun it down as it runs at them, or they could just flee, the two reactions in fantasy, stand and shoot, or flee. Maybe you should pass a LD test to do these special orders, to see if the training (either fall back or shoot) overrides ones natural desire to soil his pants and scream, without moving an inch."

That can be easily represented by shooting at that Carnifex in your own turn, instead of implementing another rule that breaks the turn sequence.

[Erenthal]

How about this then: If you charge out of a closed topped vehicle, it counts as you are assaulting an enemy in cover. IE, he strikes first.

[Goyder]

Repent!

Like i say, each race needs individaul vehcile rules. Or maybee each vechile need individual rules? I can see why Space Marines would charge out of a Crusader, but not a rhino ect.

If you get my drift.

[Steamboat Willy]

Repent!

Like i say, each race needs individaul vehcile rules. Or maybee each vechile need individual rules? I can see why Space Marines would charge out of a Crusader, but not a rhino ect.

If you get my drift.

It would be better for whole armie, you could put the rules at the front with the armies normal rules (TSKNF, slave taking ect.)

[WhiteCross]

Speaking of the Crusader, those frag launchers are useless now.

Anyone really use them anyway?  

[fillerbunny]

I have, every single time I bothered to take a Crusader.
I went looking for targets in cover.

[Camo]

             Yeah erenthal that's a pretty good idea, what i'd also make it so they don't get +1 attack for charging, then it'd make it a valid, yet considerably less powerful, tactic.

[Iyanden_WraithLord]

Wraithguard are to slow  
Wraithlords should have an invulnerable (thats just cheesy, but wutever)
And Pheonix Lords need an invulnerable. Only asurman has one, My Karandras was killed by a Starcannon in the last Eldar vs Eldar game I played, and I dodnt even get to use him  
165 pts gone.........Needle ss to say, I won  

[Mr.Peanut (Turtleproof)]

Yeah, the new assault rules encourage Power Fists immensley.  I like the concept of two squads battling, rather than the two Sergeants fighting it out and deciding the outcome for the whole squad, (That's how it works with Marines, anyway...) but Power Fists need to be tweaked now.