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Author Topic: Honestly, Do you Want GW to Re-Do DE?  (Read 14293 times)

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Offline Saldiven

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Re: Honestly, Do you Want GW to Re-Do DE?
« Reply #40 on: March 28, 2007, 03:55:39 PM »
the sudden way the wyches shot up in people's estimation between the first DE codex and the update is in part what makes me think Wyches will not be left untouched when the new dex comes.

But you have to remember that there was a reason that Wyches jumped up in usage after the change.

At that time, wyches were an almost worthless point sink, and there weren't any other units worth spending the points on.  Frankly, after you have gotten your Archon, Warriors, and Ravagers, you still don't have anything else worth spending your remaining 600-800 points on.

If other units were more viable, you wouldn't see as many Wyches.  It isn't the overall strength of Wyches that makes players take them, it is their strength relative to any other choice for those points that makes them so popular.

I mean, really, if you're making a competitive DE list, what unit are you choosing to take in lieu of wyches?

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Offline Saldiven

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Re: Honestly, Do you Want GW to Re-Do DE?
« Reply #41 on: March 28, 2007, 04:00:20 PM »
Quote
I suspect that people saying that wyches need to be nerfed probably haven't played much as a DE player.  They are incredible in cc, but if they fail to get there or can't consolidate into another unit they are toast.

So not much different from most armies cc specialists (like banshees, stealers, harlequins, Kroot...), only that DE excell in bringing them into combat. But i guess you know better than me the max charge distance from a wych raider out of an wwp.

Very true, but most people totally overestimate the Offensive punch of a single unit of wyches.  Remember, all of their special abilities are defensive in nature: reduction of opponent's WS, reduction of opponent's attacks, invulnerable save.  Even with the drug effect, against MEq's, there is a huge drop off of killiness after the first round of combat due to the lack of power weapons, rending, etc.

The only thing that Wyches truely, truely excel at is making your opponent's best CC unit mediocre (with the possible exception of Genestealers).  Wyches are quite strong, but with mediocre Leadership, low T, and huge vulnerability to shooting, they are far from the be-all-end-all of close combat units.

Sal.

Offline Lomendil

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Re: Honestly, Do you Want GW to Re-Do DE?
« Reply #42 on: March 28, 2007, 09:30:23 PM »
It's my hope the Codex follows the 'tweaks and expansion' precedent set by the other 4th ed revamps. I don't see any reason why that shouldn't happen. I think GW are well aware of the DE army's effectiveness, and the false perception among inexperienced gamers that DE are weak. I expect we'll see a couple of flashy but superficial power boosts here and there, likely with a spiffified whizz-bang unit of Much Destruction that'll get whored like crazy in WD and kill a million Monoliths in the release batrep, but overall I expect a balanced and sane update.


Very true, but most people totally overestimate the Offensive punch of a single unit of wyches.  Remember, all of their special abilities are defensive in nature: reduction of opponent's WS, reduction of opponent's attacks, invulnerable save.  Even with the drug effect, against MEq's, there is a huge drop off of killiness after the first round of combat due to the lack of power weapons, rending, etc.

Truth. It makes them a fairly unique unit too. I can't see GW messing with them much, unless the lead dev on the project gets a 'k00l id34' attack for all sorts of overcomplicated multiple-weapon kung-fu rules silliness (i.e not entirely unlike their first incarnation).


Offline IncubiLord

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Re: Honestly, Do you Want GW to Re-Do DE?
« Reply #43 on: March 29, 2007, 01:06:22 AM »
a spiffified whizz-bang unit of Much Destruction that'll get whored like crazy in WD and kill a million Monoliths in the release batrep
That one was a one of the most quality lines I've seen in a while.

Deathly amusing because it fits their MO, and worth a chuckle because it uses a funny phrase that applies to every "big thing" in a release.

And worth another laugh because it implies the DE would win in a WD BatRep.  :P

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Offline tryanotherone - smurfernating

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Re: Honestly, Do you Want GW to Re-Do DE?
« Reply #44 on: March 29, 2007, 02:49:28 AM »
(GASP - rubs eyes) Lomendil is back. Hey there, long time no see. Good to have you back.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2007, 03:05:16 AM by tryanotherone »
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Offline SyNide

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Re: Honestly, Do you Want GW to Re-Do DE?
« Reply #45 on: March 29, 2007, 03:40:09 AM »
Oh yeah!  :o

I knew something wasn't right....Where have you been?


Offline Toad_Raider

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Re: Honestly, Do you Want GW to Re-Do DE?
« Reply #46 on: March 29, 2007, 04:42:19 AM »
Quote from: Lomendil
likely with a spiffified whizz-bang unit of Much Destruction that'll get whored like crazy in WD and kill a million Monoliths in the release batrep

Quoted because... I like it  :P.  Another quote for my sig, methinks!  *looks around furtively to make sure nobody else gets it first*.

Quote from: Saldiven
If other units were more viable, you wouldn't see as many Wyches.  It isn't the overall strength of Wyches that makes players take them, it is their strength relative to any other choice for those points that makes them so popular.

I mean, really, if you're making a competitive DE list, what unit are you choosing to take in lieu of wyches?

Well said!  It's not that Wyches are an overpowered unit that everyone takes them (they're good, but not broken), it's that we have no option that is anywhere near as efficient.  This is why I would like a Harlequin option - just to add some variety to the Wych assault.

Must... resist urge... to make reference... to Lomendil...
...a spiffified whizz-bang unit of Much Destruction that'll get whored like crazy in WD and kill a million Monoliths in the release batrep
Lomendil's pick for the new DE dex. Not quite, but we have a 'dex now!

Well played, TW.  By well played, I of course mean god damn your traitorous ways.

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Offline SyNide

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Re: Honestly, Do you Want GW to Re-Do DE?
« Reply #47 on: March 29, 2007, 05:17:14 AM »
I'd rather they gave us better hellions/jetbikes/scourges  :P

I don't really like space clowns... ::)

Offline Hypopheralcus

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Re: Honestly, Do you Want GW to Re-Do DE?
« Reply #48 on: March 29, 2007, 08:00:31 AM »
Yeah, Hellions with assault capabilities would be awesome.

Offline Gwaihir

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Re: Honestly, Do you Want GW to Re-Do DE?
« Reply #49 on: March 29, 2007, 09:15:59 AM »
Just make the helglaive assault 2 12" or something like that.  Having a rapidfire weapon is utterly absurd and prevents them from doing what they should be doing.


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Offline tryanotherone - smurfernating

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Re: Honestly, Do you Want GW to Re-Do DE?
« Reply #50 on: March 29, 2007, 09:25:04 AM »
The highest priority, IMHO, should go to the scourges. They have a lot of potential in terms of game play and in terms of fluff.
I know everybody agrees with me, don´t you (triggers combat drugs and prepares agonizer and splinter pistol for heated discussion)
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Offline SyNide

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Re: Honestly, Do you Want GW to Re-Do DE?
« Reply #51 on: March 29, 2007, 11:11:52 AM »
Indeed...I love how scourges look...

What i really want them to do, is give scourge wings as wargear  ;D, that would look bloody sweet!

Offline Erin

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Re: Honestly, Do you Want GW to Re-Do DE?
« Reply #52 on: March 29, 2007, 03:21:54 PM »
I think the biggest problems are Scourges, Hellions, and Reavers. Reavers, the only real thing they need is a second attack, and then they'd be good for harrassing heavy weapons squads in the back.

Scourges need to be made into a fast attack choice, and lose the option for dark lances, and maybe gains some new weapon options (I love splinter cannons, but an anti marine weapon would be nice too). The prices for their guns needs to drop as well.

Hellions... they just need to be made a little cheaper. And get assault weapons (Something like shuriken catapults would be awesome).

If these units, and maybe even the talos as well, get buffed, I'll be happy, even if they do nerf some of our better stuff. I just want a bit of variety here.

On the other hand, if GW decides to go the whole nine yards and overhaul the DE into a beginner army, then I'll be royally pissed... I'm something of an 'Indie kid', and the reason I started out playing DE (they were my first army) and stuck with them, instead of selling them like every other newb, is cause I like being the only dark eldar player in my gaming group. If a ton of newbies started buying dark eldar, I'd probably just sell them and start a new army.
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Offline SyNide

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Re: Honestly, Do you Want GW to Re-Do DE?
« Reply #53 on: March 29, 2007, 03:27:43 PM »
Don't give up so soon Erin, only sell them if the DE has become a noob friendly army...If they haven't, do what a true DE would do, wait for the brats to getting sick and tired of losing to their friends with marines, and you can buy those secondhand goods for cheap.  ;)

Offline Lomendil

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Re: Honestly, Do you Want GW to Re-Do DE?
« Reply #54 on: March 29, 2007, 03:31:10 PM »
On the other hand, if GW decides to go the whole nine yards and overhaul the DE into a beginner army, then I'll be royally pissed... I'm something of an 'Indie kid', and the reason I started out playing DE (they were my first army) and stuck with them, instead of selling them like every other newb, is cause I like being the only dark eldar player in my gaming group. If a ton of newbies started buying dark eldar, I'd probably just sell them and start a new army.

I don't know if this is a philosophy still currently held by the GW devs, but I do remember Jervis Johnson saying (on Portent, IIRC) a couple of years ago that they liked the fact that there were difficult armies like DE in the 'GW inventory', as it were. Jervis said that while he always aimed for a general consistent balance, he didn't believe that all armies should be created 100% equal, and that it's good for the game if some pose a greater challenge to play than others.

If GW do hold that view then you'll almost certainly be in luck.

Offline Makaan

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Re: Honestly, Do you Want GW to Re-Do DE?
« Reply #55 on: March 29, 2007, 03:40:39 PM »
Well, it's okay if they are a little bit more challenging than the other armies, but they shouldn't be too challenging for sure.

Because if they are too challenging, too few people will buy the Dark Eldar ranges, and then we might once again be put on the backward end of the table, which would mean years apart discrepancy between model releases and again few (too few) fluff for the Lost Ones.

I don't want 3rd Edition treatment again.  :-[

I want us to be treated as much as the Tau, or at least the Craftworld Eldar. Just not forgotten like back then.  :(

Offline SyNide

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Re: Honestly, Do you Want GW to Re-Do DE?
« Reply #56 on: March 29, 2007, 03:48:30 PM »
While I agree with you Makaan, you have to look on the brightside of things...

The DE are such a unique army that it draws a specific kind of personality to it, and i notice that all of us here seem to share the same love of a good challenge, the same love for our uniqueness and the same decadence that our race embodies...

Although i would like for DE to receive better treatment than before, i would like to keep it this way, i would like DE to continue attracting like minded people, because really, there's no point being decadent if there's no one to be decadent with/to  ;)

Offline Makaan

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Re: Honestly, Do you Want GW to Re-Do DE?
« Reply #57 on: March 29, 2007, 04:01:14 PM »
But who is going to lament about our awesome-ness and the inferiority of the mon'keigh if they don't even know about the Lost Ones? :P

http://www.tsoalr.com/view.php?date=2004-05-06

I mean, that comic sums it up the best for me.  :(

But that's okay, because Dark Eldars are awesome, let's keep going...

http://www.tsoalr.com/view.php?date=2004-07-01

http://www.tsoalr.com/view.php?date=2004-07-12

Somehow, that is too true...  ;D

Offline Erin

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Re: Honestly, Do you Want GW to Re-Do DE?
« Reply #58 on: March 29, 2007, 04:07:00 PM »
On the other hand, if GW decides to go the whole nine yards and overhaul the DE into a beginner army, then I'll be royally pissed... I'm something of an 'Indie kid', and the reason I started out playing DE (they were my first army) and stuck with them, instead of selling them like every other newb, is cause I like being the only dark eldar player in my gaming group. If a ton of newbies started buying dark eldar, I'd probably just sell them and start a new army.

I don't know if this is a philosophy still currently held by the GW devs, but I do remember Jervis Johnson saying (on Portent, IIRC) a couple of years ago that they liked the fact that there were difficult armies like DE in the 'GW inventory', as it were. Jervis said that while he always aimed for a general consistent balance, he didn't believe that all armies should be created 100% equal, and that it's good for the game if some pose a greater challenge to play than others.

If GW do hold that view then you'll almost certainly be in luck.

I hope so... I don't want the dark eldar to become too popular... then I'll have to switch to something rare, like a witch hunters force with no Sisters of Battle. Now that would be a challenging army to play!

But, seeing as there's at least a year between now and the next codex, I'll just sit back and see how things develop.
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Offline SyNide

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Re: Honestly, Do you Want GW to Re-Do DE?
« Reply #59 on: March 29, 2007, 04:12:42 PM »
Lol, yeah, i've read that one...but really thats the beauty of DE,

We come into a gaming group that's never seen a DE player, and they'll be all OOOOHH and AAAAAH, they'd probably act like ok, let's see what you got...and then you get your archon into their faces on the first turn XD, raping their marines and they'll be like WTF!!!

There you have already scared a gaming group FOR LIFE...and thats how i like the DE reputation...action s speak louder than words, and what actions could speak more loudly than i kicked your face in? I like the reputation that comes along with DE...the hard army to use, but f***ing scary...

 


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