Topic: Honestly, Do you Want GW to Re-Do DE?

[SyNide]

Actually, i really want an assassin type HQ, someone to lead my army of shadows, i'll be happy if he gets access to wargear but is restricted from WWP carrying...Yeah, a Decap with access to the armoury would be brilliant 

[Lonewolf]

So the consensus is:

"We want to keep your uber units, and have our useless units buffed?"

Sorry thats not how it works. Eldar got their weaker units buffed, but lost their starcannon chees factor and the partitially abusive sub lists (Alaitoc disruption table mostly).

Tyranids got a good all around buff, but the biovores where nerfed.

Latly DA, which is still heavily disputed if it was a good change or not, got at least the asscannon spamming under control (well if you dont mount them all on speeders, which is kind of expensive point wise). 

So i wouldnt be surprised, if wyches got nerved a bit, probably their cc save reduced to 5++ or something, and the archon maybe a bit reworked, although perhaps not. But i wouldnt be surprised if sniper squads would become a fair bit more expensive.

On the other side, you can expect the less used units to receive a good buff, and you would finally see balanced lists. Really all DE list i tend to see nowadays look somehow pretty similar, either raider rush with wyches and a bit sniper squad support, or wwp lists.

Believe me, you will like it better, as did i like the new balanced Eldar codex better.

[Czar]

So the consensus is:

"We want to keep your uber units, and have our useless units buffed?"

Sorry thats not how it works. Eldar got their weaker units buffed, but lost their starcannon chees factor and the partitially abusive sub lists (Alaitoc disruption table mostly).

I don't think that's what people want at all, they just want useless units made viable so there is the scope for some variation in competative lists. Uber units can be reduced if warranted, but no one wants to see models they have spent a lot of money on become useless.

[Ollieb]

With the second edition printing Wyches acutally became a unit people used.  Take away the 4+ INV save and back on the shelf they go.  I think they are fine right now the way they are. 

Wasn't the original intent of this thread to see if we thought the minis should be redone? 

[Lonewolf]

Wasn't the original intent of this thread to see if we thought the minis should be redone?

Fom the OP:

and I am just talking about Codex Re-Do, not the models.

I don't think that's what people want at all, they just want useless units made viable so there is the scope for some variation in competative lists.

Well, i read the replies a bit different:

sure don't, I fear the changes they will make, I like the way Wyches are right now

Honestly i want them to leave wyches and warriars alone, dont even touch them, there perfect the way they are.

What I don't want to see is Warrior-nerfing

Or the nerfing of the Archon, who often goes underestimated, and it's nice to have such a powerful character in an army many people initially see as flimsy.

Just don't strip away all of my Archon's power, because she's incredible.

I definitely agree...Don't Touch Warriors, Don't Touch Archons...They are perfect the way they are.

Besides that, they should keep the codex as it is. It´s good and competitive.

With the second edition printing Wyches acutally became a unit people used.  Take away the 4+ INV save and back on the shelf they go.  I think they are fine right now the way they are.

So many people dont want to see a change on the most powerfull units. You know, i understand that notion well, i even shared it, before the Eldar Codex release, and yet i defended the new codex, when all those rumors cropped up, how armies will be unplayable, how Eldar will get nerfed, etc.

What i want to say is, that GW has done a good job at rebalancing the recent codecis (save for the ass cannon  ). No Brainers where nerfed, while less or never used units where buffed. Thats how new models are sold after all 

And you know what? It makes the game much more fun. From my selection of back then around 7000p of Eldar i only ever used maybe 3000p with the old codex, since the rest simply wasnt competitive. Now i can use all my toys, and that is a good thing. I had to rethink my army compositions, which in itself is fun.

[Vic]

I do not fear change, but I guess we will find out, I am also worried about the new Chaos codex.

I just don't want my 45 Wyches Retired and forcing me to buy brand new unit.

[Ollieb]

I just don't want my 45 Wyches Retired and forcing me to buy brand new unit.

That would be a real downer.  Wyches get nerfed so bad that Cults are no longer a viable army to field.  I wouldn't be a happy camper if that happened.

[M_a_t_thew]

That would be a real downer.

as an impartial outsider, i would say that the smart money would be on a minor nerfing of the wyches, but nothing so bad that people stop taking them.

if i was a betting man, i would say that it might be in the wych weapons. reducing attacks and halving WS in one piece of equipment is quite alot for something to do. i reckon that either wyches will lose one of those advantages, or youll have to pay for them seperately as two different upgrades. something in that vein, anyway, would not surprise me.

i hope they dont take away the random element of combat drugs, though, cos i think it makes playing against dark eldar interesting. reminds me a bit of 2nd ed too, when the effects of stuff was so much more complicated.

[Ollieb]

WWs were a 2nd ed change.  The Shardnet/Impaler, Hydraknives and Razorsnare/Falchion used to actually have different effects for what they did.

[IncubiLord]

Limit the "mandrake champion" to 25 points of wargear.  That way he/she couldn't carry the WWP.

Why not 45 points of gear, or no item worth more than 25 points?

Better yet, why not simply have Mandrakes who deployed that turn always count as moving?
No WWP for you until you've been shot/charged/hit with psychic powers/run over by a tank. That makes it possible, but very risky.

[Gwaihir]

I suspect that people saying that wyches need to be nerfed probably haven't played much as a DE player.  They are incredible in cc, but if they fail to get there or can't consolidate into another unit they are toast.  There are ways to counter them, they just don't typically involve trying to beat them at their own game.

What I fear most in changes to DE is that GW makes them easier for the general player to use.  If too much of the challenge and fragility are lost, there will be no reason to continue with them.  GW can ruin DE by trying to make them appeal to a broad base of gamers.  Many gamers don't want to lose, or have to work hard for the win.  I hope GW doesn't try to sell DE to them.

[M_a_t_thew]

WWs were a 2nd ed change.

the sudden way the wyches shot up in people's estimation between the first DE codex and the update is in part what makes me think Wyches will not be left untouched when the new dex comes. a games designer will look at the bitty history of DE rules publication and see a vista of opportunity, for them to take the race in hand and make their mark, and so on and so forth. i think the temptation to 'smooth out' some of the update rules will be too strong to resist. this is the way games designers think. that probably goes for vehicle upgrades too.

that there will be changes to mandrakes, scourges and grotesques would also be a safe bet i think, because of the fireprism-logic: theres some good ideas in there somewhere, but theyre a bit too rare as is - buff the rules, and hey presto - theyre everywhere. i just hope it doesnt go the way of CSM obliterators.

EDIT:
@Gwiahir: i for one wasnt arguing that wyches need to be nerfed - i was arguing that it would be a reasonable bet that they will be nerfed. secondguessing GW thought processes is the name of this game.

[Lonewolf]

I suspect that people saying that wyches need to be nerfed probably haven't played much as a DE player.  They are incredible in cc, but if they fail to get there or can't consolidate into another unit they are toast.

So not much different from most armies cc specialists (like banshees, stealers, harlequins, Kroot...), only that DE excell in bringing them into combat. But i guess you know better than me the max charge distance from a wych raider out of an wwp.

[Vic]

Wyches and our HQ I am worried the most about, they just have that "NERF" stamp waiting to be put on them.

Good thing we will have to wait til Late 08/Early 09 for a new Dex!

[Brutal Moon]

Lonewolf has done a competitive point-stat analysis finally allowing us to truly measure and compare the power of units between armies, thus allowing us to judge a unit's need for nerfing!

I and probably also the GW designers would absolutely love to see it. Dark Eldar are good, and certainly can win, but very certainly can lose, as well. Unless DE are absolutely dominating world wide and I am simply oblivious? What everyone wants from a new codex is to see the units they have shelved or unbought due to crappiness made viable. Variety is the spice of life! Personally I suspect warriors might get bumped up a couple o' points, maybe raiders as well, probably with some other superficial change.

[Wicky]

I sure don't, I fear the changes they will make, I like the way Wyches are right now, and I am just talking about Codex Re-Do, not the models.

I don't want to see this codex become an example of the Switcheroo (They exchange a really awful unit with a good one, and swap abilties, therefore you have to buy lots of new models since the prior unit was so awful, you never had any models)

Hi,
    Do I want GW it re-do DE? I suppose the answer is yes but only in the direction that I want.
The inevitable comparison to the Eldar Codex comes to mind for the format, especially dropping the wargear as a separate list and combining it with the character list so it shows exactly who can take what (how many times has the question of “can I arm my  Archon with……,” come up?)
We need more than one troop choice, other than swapping Wyches and warriors around.
We need to be more mobile as with each new Codex release for other armies they seem to be getting stronger and more mobile than ever.
We need to make more of our unique nature and the most unique item of all, the Webway portal needs to be made into a model with statistics other than just a points cost and further enhancements like two way travel between portals, any fall back by friendly troops make them transfer to the other portal, any trespass by enemy troops result in their destruction etc. The inclusion of stats would stop a lot of rules arguments and a legal GW model would look a whole lot better than a stupid spare blast marker.
We need to get those special characters out of the back of the book and into circulation where they belong.
And we need something that will take care of “blessed hulls on Land Raiders and Monoliths” a bit better than the standard Dark Lance does now – perhaps something along the lines of “if the squad or vehicle has more than one Dark Lance then the strength/AP increases but combines into one shot only.”
This only my take on what “we need” and I would be happy if these points were addressed, especially the portal issue.
Cheers.

[Toad_Raider]

Do I want GW do re-do DE?  Well yeah... to a certain degree.

The new Codex layout that GW displayed in the Eldar codex was, to be perfectly honest, a joke.  Good idea, poorly executed.

I am a little worried about the inevitable nerfing of some DE units and items... but not so much.  Mainly because around here, I have heard nobody complain about how broken X unit is (X being either Wyches, Warriors, Ravagers or Archons... ok, maybe Archons).  People now recognise that the DE list is amazingly competetive when used correctly - competitive, but not overpowered.  Yes we get an amazing deal on Warriors, but I have never heard anyone complain about it.  The same goes for the rest - no complaints, especially none so loud as those about the Assault Cannon   .  Then again, the Dark Eldar units don't gain anywhere near is much exposure as the Assault Cannon...

Also a little concerned about the DE becoming the flavour of the month - hopefully GW will keep them hard to play well with, so that there is soon a flood of shiny new models onto Ebay for all of us to buy when the DE noobs give up on a large scale  .

Desperately hope there is no large scale change to the background, and the overall flavour of the list.  Our army is considered one for the tacticians, and that is how I would like it to stay.

[tryanotherone - smurfernating]

The inevitable comparison to the Eldar Codex comes to mind for the format, especially dropping the wargear as a separate list and combining it with the character list so it shows exactly who can take what (how many times has the question of “can I arm my  Archon with……,” come up?)

Yes, that would be a very good change. This topic pops up on a regular basis.

We need more than one troop choice, other than swapping Wyches and warriors around.

Enter the Haemonculi Coven, the mandrake, jetbike or scourge army.

We need to be more mobile as with each new Codex release for other armies they seem to be getting stronger and more mobile than ever.

The ability to exit and shoot from deep striking raider would be nice.

We need to get those special characters out of the back of the book and into circulation where they belong.

My guess is that GW will follow the new eldar codex within which the phoenix kings were made regular hq units.

[Psyan]

Wyches w/ wych weapons are extremely effective in assault, but considering how much they cost and how fast they die to even lasgun fire, I'm not sure how warranted a points increase would be.  However, I think that we might end up giving up one of the abilities that WW grant; either the halving of the opponents weapons skill or the removal of the benefits of a second hand weapon.  If I had to choose, I'd rather give up the former than the latter.  If they nerf our invulnerable save, Wyches will become a lot less effective and maybe not even worth the points.  After all, their T and S are still quite low for elite assault choices.

I almost guarantee that we're going to take a hit on the cost of our warriors.  They cost the same as a regular CWE, but have better WS, BS and I.  Also, I'll take one of our Succubi over a Warlock any day of the week.  I've prepared myself to accept a points increase here.

Mandrakes should be a simple fix.  Give them furious charge and possibly gruesome talismans and allow them to be led by a character with access to the armory.  The concern about having Mandrake characters carrying an invulnerable WWP can be easily and fluffily addressed.  In fluff, I've seen Mandrakes portrayed as skulking assassin types who have few compunctions about preying on other (dark) eldar.  This would probably make them objects of suspicion and fear (more than ordinary) in DE society.  What reasonably intelligent commander would trust such scoundrels to carry an item that decides whether or not and when the bulk of his elite forces arrived on the battlefield?

New rule:
Untrustworthy: Because of their reputation for preying on other DE, Mandrakes may not carry a WWP.

Grots could be easily fixed, too.  Give them T5, save ++5, fleet and rending.  (I know, most people don't like rending, but it makes sense and gives us a unit that can reliably damage tanks in assault.)

If GW made changes like that, it might actually become hard to decide whether to take Wyches, Grots or Mandrakes.  Right now, it's pretty much a foregone conclusion.

[Nels]

I assume with a toughness of 5 the grots no longer have the feel no pain special rule?