News: No news is good news...

Login  |  Register

Author Topic: 1750 Hammer+Anvil - comment and [rate] please  (Read 2233 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline HenElt

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 64
  • I *LOVE* 40k Online!
1750 Hammer+Anvil - comment and [rate] please
« on: October 27, 2010, 06:50:29 PM »
I have previously been playing quite a bit mech lists or what some would call semi-mech lists, but generally got tired of the huge costs on WS that are NOT as tough as especially non-Eldar players make them sound. Instead I have changed my list a bit and made it more pure Hamme+Anvil style, although I haven't included the usual Anvil, but instead a hard-hitting one that most ppl will avoid if they get the choice. No points will be included, but trust me, they hold! ^^ (thank you Armybuilder)

HQ:
Avatar

Farseer, RoWard, SS, Doom, Fortune

Troop:
10 Defender Guardians, S-Can
  + Spiritseer, embolden

10 Dire Avengers
  -  Exarch, Dual-Cat, Bladestorm
  + Wave Serpent, TL-BL, SS

Elite:
05 Fire Dragons
  + Wave Serpent, TL-SctL, SS

10 Howling Banshees
  -  Exarch, Executioner, Acrobatics
  + Wave Serpent, TL-SctL, SS

10 Harlequins, Kisses
  -  Shadowseer, Kiss
  -  Troupe Master, Powerweapon

Heavy:
Wraithlord, BL, EML, Dual-Flamer

Wraithlord, BL, EML, Dual-Flamer

Total: 1747
KP: 12
Scoring: 2


Tactic:
The Footslogging part of the army (Avatar, Farseer, Guardians, Harlequins and Wraithlords) is basically a part that nobody really wish to get to close to. I use that to control the battlefield, preferably squeezing my opponent a bit to one side of the field, or making him split up his force. The first part make me dominate more of the battlefield, and the latter part makes it easier to destroy a good chunk of his army as it cannot get enough assistance. This part of the army will go for the assault if my opponent gets to near, in which case the guardians will go for an objective.

The Wave Serpents will lurk behind cover if possible until a weakness is visible. If no real weakness comes up, they will Turbo Boost across the field ready to unload the following round. Depending on how far in the game we are and the target they are approaching, either the HB or FD WS will be in front and provide cover to the other two.

The Guardians have been made as cheap as possible and will generally be joined by the Farseer. Fortune will be used on the Avatar even though my opponents usually shoot at my wraithlords - fortuning 3+ saves vs Lascannons doesn't help much anyway. Should we engage in combat Fortune will alternatively be used on the Harlequins instead, depending on whether I expect a clean kill or not. Doom has a nice range and can normally with no problem assist my DA's and my Banshees. If I wish for my Harlequins to eliminate a unit entirely in the same turn they assault, they will be assisted by Doom instead (i.e. last round against troops on an objective).

Comments:
My only real weakness i the low amount of Troops to claim objectives. Some would Argue that a smart player will just take them out and by that win the game. I would argue that a group of DA's in a WS lurking in cover and a group of Guardians hiding behind an Avatar two Wraithlords and partly 10 Harlequins aren't something you just eliminate in one turn - you would need to invest more time into it. That would make my opponent use a lot of resources on killing them instead of taking out the real killing power of the list, which basically will make him play for the tie instead of a win. Only way to win against this list is making sure that my forces does not dominate the battlefield. I believe in using few troops and lots of elites. All I need for a win is one objective and the rest contested.

EDIT: So far no rating has been done - is it an oversight of the rating team or just because they do not regard it an army worth rating? Any way I'd like a comment about it! :-)

(Look - I edited, and didn't bump! :-P)
« Last Edit: November 12, 2010, 09:29:20 AM by HenElt »

Offline Irisado

  • A Light in The Grim-Darkness ~ Guns Don't Kill People, Copyright Stats Do | Farseer | Reporting Live! from the Crime Scene | Somewhat behind the times
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11480
  • Country: gb
  • Soñando debajo del arco iris
  • Armies: Administrators must not play 40K
Re: 1750 Hammer+Anvil - comment and rate please
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2010, 07:07:48 PM »
As someone who makes regular use of this strategy, this isn't really a hammer and anvil.  What you are presenting here is more a reverse hammer and anvil, whereby you are more aggressive with the infantry section than the mechanised wing.  This can be effective, especially against armies which will take the attack to you, but you must find cover for the Wave Serpents to hide behind, or it's not likely to work in my opinion.

I'm not convinced about your anvil though, regardless of which form of the hammer and anvil strategy you are using.  Harlequins don't appear to fit the background, and tactically, they are just too fragile in my opinion to act as a reliable assault protection/spearhead unit in this sort of list.  A Rhino rush against you, for example, could be disastrous as mass rapid fire is lethal to both Harlequins and Guardians, so I think that you have a bad combination of units here.  Harlequins are also more fragile, due to the defenders react rule, in combat than other Aspects, and are more vulnerable to reprisals.  They do work better at distance, and can be combined more effectively with certain other resilient units which can shield them, such as Wraithlord (they are not a good choice background wise for Iyanden armies though in my view), but they are not suited to this army at all in my opinion.

Guardians can work, but need to be fielded in pairs to increase their firepower in my experience.  In addition, they need Scatter Lasers, as the additional range is critical for stopping opposing attacks heading their way from an earlier stage, and the extra shot makes all the difference when you're trying to neutralise a light transport, such as a Rhino.

Your infantry block is also too small in my opinion, and could be easily overrun, so I have found that fielding a minimum of three units is essential to have a reasonable chance of preventing this.  My suggestion would, therefore, be to take two squads of Guardians and Striking Scorpions for the assault protection role.

I appreciate that you have the Avatar, but his fearless bubble is a horrible double edged sword for the Guardian squad, and if the Harlequins are neutralised by rapid fire, or some other short ranged attack, you're going to be in difficulty if the Guardians are engaged in combat at the same time as the Avatar, so I really do think that you need to protect yourself against this problem by altering the list.

Everything else looks very good, although you could save points by downgrading all the Wave Serpent weaponry to Shuriken Cannons, given that you have Wraithlords to provide anti-tank fire support, the Wave Serpents can use their superior mobility to ensure that they get into range to make best use of the Shuriken Cannons more readily than the Guardians can.  If you prefer to keep the Scatter Lasers, that's fair enough, but you really don't need that Brightlance on the Dire Avenger squad's Wave Serpent in my view.

Overall, I award no rating, as I'm not a member of the Eldar army list rating team, so I'll leave that to moc and Gutstikk, but I think that your list has a lot of potential, and could work very well, but I think that you need to make the anvil stronger, regardless of how you plan to use it.

I hope that helps.
You haunt my in-box like an ex-girl friend could only dream of.

The Forum Rules - Please Read and Remember Them.

Soñando con una playa donde brilla el sol, un arco iris ilumina el cielo, y el mar espejea iridescentemente

Offline HenElt

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 64
  • I *LOVE* 40k Online!
Re: 1750 Hammer+Anvil - comment and rate please
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2010, 07:30:30 PM »
Hehe. Always nice to hear your comments Irisado as they are always viable, although I over time have found myself disagreeing with some of it. To add some comments to it, I will agree that it is not a common Hammer+Anvil, and I will also agree that the footslogging part of the army does seem the more agressive part. I have played with lists quite similar to this for some time now (really finding it the more fun kind of Eldar lists to play), so the agressive Anvil does work, even if people don't bring the fight to me.

The comment about the rapid fire risk against my Guardians (and partly Harlequins) is quite viable, and I did manage to loose nearly all of them in one unlucky event. I do however find that them hiding close to 6" behind my Avatar makes it less likely that my opponent goes for them considering his threat range. I'm definitely agreeing it is a risk, but one I have become better at paying attention to. Same goes for the Harlequins, but their superior movement only really combated by skimmers (no penalty for difficult terrain: yay) has enabled me to hide them behind several obstacles and by that win the initiative. Also when it comes to combat their damage is rivaled by no other Eldar unit, given that they assault (If they do not assault they are still superior to Banshees and Scorpions, just not as much). Against normal marines (which is 3/4 armies in my area) they expect to kill 8.3 marines on assault as compared to the Banshees 5.8 and Scorpions 5.2. Against Plague Marines, the worst kind I know, the numbers are 5.8, 3 and 2.3... Throw in Doom and it's just scary. (Yes, I like applying math to the game... its great for mind gaming my opponent! :-D)

When it comes to Scorpions they are in my opinion a bad Space Marine. They do have the good strength and save, but they also have low toughness, which will remove the edge they could otherwise have. I stick to Banshees and Harlequins for melee damage!

The Guardian unit is kept cheap for a reason, as I need it to be able to keep up with my running Avatar, which prevents it from shooting, which is why the S-Can is chosen. You can say that in general the shooting that the Guardians lack for defending against incoming Rhinos etc., the Wave Serpents can assist in. In earlier lists they were actually equipped with S-Can's, but in this list I ended up with 60ish points which I basically could either use to boost my Guardian squad in numbers or improve the WS's weapons. I chose the latter. Whether the BL should be in the DA serpent or the Banshee WS can be discussed, and I won't definitively decide which one just yet.

On a final note I have to add that I do not play the game for Fluff (probably because I do no know enough about it), and I do not necessarily play the game to dominate my opponent either. I play Eldar because I love the figures, the specialist aspect of their play style and the Biel-Tan color scheme. :-)

Offline Irisado

  • A Light in The Grim-Darkness ~ Guns Don't Kill People, Copyright Stats Do | Farseer | Reporting Live! from the Crime Scene | Somewhat behind the times
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11480
  • Country: gb
  • Soñando debajo del arco iris
  • Armies: Administrators must not play 40K
Re: 1750 Hammer+Anvil - comment and rate please
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2010, 10:21:21 AM »
Just on the specific issue of Harlequins versus assault Aspect Warriors, when you factor in the points cost (don't forget to add the obligatory Kisses), and link that to the damage output and survivability, Harlequins really are not sufficiently superior to Howling Banshees or Striking Scorpions regarding their killing power relative to these other factors I mentioned.

For more information on this issue, and the relationship between Striking Scorpions and Howling Banshees, this thread, and this one may be of interest to you.
You haunt my in-box like an ex-girl friend could only dream of.

The Forum Rules - Please Read and Remember Them.

Soñando con una playa donde brilla el sol, un arco iris ilumina el cielo, y el mar espejea iridescentemente

Offline HenElt

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 64
  • I *LOVE* 40k Online!
Re: 1750 Hammer+Anvil - comment and rate please
« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2010, 11:48:59 AM »
As I have done the math myself, I can reveal the points against different target types, and their efficiency. The units calculated are, what I believe, the most common builds used;

10 Scorpions incl. exarch with Scorpions Claw (187)
10 Banshees incl. exarch with Executioner (182)
10 Harlequins with kiss incl. Shadowseer w. kiss and Troupe Master w. Power Weapon (266)

All opponents are considered to have WS4 which is not entirely fair, as both Scorpions and Banshees would benefit highly if the opponents had lower WS. But as most opponents I play against have WS4, which is why I use this as a meassuring. The efficiency is calculated as points/kills, meaning that a lower number is better. The table reflects number of expected kills (No spread will be included, as most wouldn't really get that anyway) and the efficiency. The 2+ save is not as much a reflection of a terminator armor as a reflection of a power armer combined with Feel No Pain. It's basically the same save. Also, I will highlight the most kills with bold, and the most efficient unit with underline.

vsT3 Sv5+T4 Sv5+T4 Sv3+T5 Sv2+
ScorpionsKills:10.67 Eff:17.5Kills:8.22 Eff:22.7Kills:5.22 Eff:35.8Kills:2.33 Eff:80.1
BansheesKills: 8.42 Eff:21.6Kills:5.83 Eff:31.2Kills:5.83 Eff:31.2Kills:3.00 Eff:60.7
HarlequinsKills:14.22 Eff:18.7Kills:11 Eff:24.18Kills:8.33 Eff:31.92Kills:5.78 Eff:46.4

What we can basically see is that what we believe pre-hand is supported. Scorpions are best against high toughness opponents and Banshees are best against low save opponents - when we only look at those two. In all scenarios the Harlequins are expected to kill the most, as they combine the strongest parts of each of the aspect warriors; High strength and power weapons attacks (ok... rending... but you get the picture). What we also notice, which is probably what will surprise most people, is that the Harlequins are nearly as efficient as the aspects in all the cases. What I end up concluding is that the Harlequins are the "Jack of all Assault"-guys in the Eldar arsenal, and Im pretty sure they are EXTREMELY high on the list if we rank all assault units in the game.

Whether you choose one unit above another is very subjective, and with these three it's even more so. Yes, Scorpions have better armor and high str, but they also have low pw attacks and no fleet. Yes, Banshees have loads of pw attacks and can easily be deployed from a Wave Serpent, but they have bad save and low str. Harlequins might be the best in killing but in many instances they are simply to expensive or to difficult to use, as they only have their 5++ save. Subjective decisions all around.

Offline moc065

  • Infinity Circuit / Necrontyr Lord / KoN Warlord
  • Ancient
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8827
  • Country: ca
  • King of the Preemptive Strike
    • klucas.piczo.com
Re: 1750 Hammer+Anvil - comment and [rate] please
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2010, 11:06:10 AM »

HQ:
Avatar

Farseer, RoWard, SS, Doom, Fortune

Troop:
10 Defender Guardians, S-Can
  + Spiritseer, embolden

10 Dire Avengers
  -  Exarch, Dual-Cat, Bladestorm
  + Wave Serpent, TL-BL, SS

Elite:
05 Fire Dragons
  + Wave Serpent, TL-SctL, SS

10 Howling Banshees
  -  Exarch, Executioner, Acrobatics
  + Wave Serpent, TL-SctL, SS

10 Harlequins, Kisses
  -  Shadowseer, Kiss
  -  Troupe Master, Powerweapon

Heavy:
Wraithlord, BL, EML, Dual-Flamer

Wraithlord, BL, EML, Dual-Flamer

Total: 1747
KP: 12
Scoring: 2


First off don't presume why the rating team didn't socre it, but the reason I didn't do it earlier is that I actually see it as a Hybrid List, and its actually similar to others of this style that have already beedn scored. Thus I normally would not rate this list; but as I was asked to give it a rating and I do see how the discussion helps support some of its nuaunces, I will try to rate it accordingly.

moc-score

1.. Anti-tank potential 5/8 working groups have Anti-tank potential while the other 3/8 have some options on side/rear armour at least, etc. This is not great; but a lot of that is ranged and mobile so it does have an overall decent potential vs Armour in general. Its a good variety too, and although it could certainly be improved, I do see it as being slightly Above Average 0.7
2.. Anti-MEQ potential Again 5/8 of the units do have decent anti-MEQ potential eventhough its not always in mass quantities. There are also areas of mass potential which help, etc. Yes this area could be improved but that would probably have a negative effect on other areas and thus I would leave it alone and I rate it as Good 0.8
3.. Anti-Horde potential This part is weird as there are some reall gems in there (twin flamers on Wraithlords, DA with Bladestorm, etc. While at the same time, if the army is not deployed and moved appropriately its all for not. Due to the balance of position, coordination, and selective effectiveness I will only rate this area as Average 0.6 since I do see ways that certain hordes could be used with disasterous effect vs the army.
4.. Ranged Firepower potential I actually like that you have 3 Serpents, 2 WL's and a platform for ranged shooting with decent volume and range on them. Mobile DA add to the mix, etc, etc. I still see the real power of this army at its mid range; but your playstyle and opponents might have something to say about that. I do see this area as being decent though, and thus rate it about average, maybe slighty above average 0.7
5.. Assault potential Where ? No honestly I don't see this as an assault army; but more of a Counter-assault army or an assault the week army. Harlies and Banshees are serious CC units; but they are also not to left in the open or unattended, etc, etc as they can quickly turn into "one hit wonders". Thus I see this area as Average at best 0.6 (and honestlyl, if I called this area Counter-assault potential or assault in the late game potential it might score differently).
6.. Scoring Units / point level 2 @ 1750 is light, No Doubt about it. I get away with 3 Scoring units at this points level on a regular basis; but I also use seriously resilient Troops in many of my games. You Defenders are naked, and Cover saves - fearless factor etc included I actually could shoot them off the table in one round. The DA are the same for me, as I honestly could drop that Serpent and/or assault them in one round, so I would cleanthem from you list pretty fast. Case in Point. You face off vs Imperial Guardsmen with 6 Chimera (h-stubbers, H-bolters, Multilaser) and the rest of his army. Turn 1, he uses just the 6 Chimera vs you Defenders (that 45 shots, 23 hits, 15+ wounds, and 7+ dead Defenders @ 36" range) with absolutley no effort, as he will most likely have another bucket load of AT stuff to shoot at your bigger guys and vehicles. Now your forced to get to his line or win with 1 Troop choice. It would be a tough game for you to win, my Saim-Hann would do the same and deal with the big guys later (Actually I relish the thought of assaulting things like Avatar's and WL's as they die farily fast when you wounding on 2+ in CC). Sorry but that is how I see it, and thus due to the relitive squishyness of your 2 Troops, I rate this are as Below Average 0.4 and think it needs at least one more Troop or some serious added resilience.
7.. Durability or Resilience Overall the army is resilient as only certian things are softer and if used well you can build lines of Cover, etc. Ava + WL out front, Harlies form second line, Defenders in the rear sort-of as 1-2 need to be close to Ava, the rest of the army falls in place and even a rhino rush can be held off, grounded and pounded with some precision and reliability. But its all about your deploy and movement and coordination so playstyle is huge. I see this area as slightly above average on a whole even though many guys will try to Troop Hunt you out. 0.7
8.. Flexability The list is predicatble in my eyes; but its not horrible as it can go to Anviil and Hammer or Duel Pincer, or segregate and concur, etc. thus I see it as Average 0.6
9.. Mission Capability Not so great for Multiple Objective missions as you will have to contest a few to get the win, or flaten the enemy completely and I don't see this army haveing that much Masacre potential consistantly. Thus I see this as about average 0.6
10. Dynamics and/or Theme I actually like the them a lot (Harlies fit if you ask me). I see it as a very Old School Hybrid list with a new twist. I am surprised that you didn't take Big-E as the Farseer as he would actually help in many ways. Othewise I actually think its cool that you didn't as it shows some imagination and skill as a tactician (in you write-ups). Anyway I rate this area as Good 0.8

Rating = 6.7/10 Some woudl rate it higher and with a good general I can see it playing better than the score suggests; but vs a strong opponent with compition list I don't see it consistantly doing much better than that. Its a Great FUN list and it would probably do well locally too; but it will get figured out pretty fast and not last as long as some other lists unless you are a serioulsy good general.

Cheers

PS.. I would like HenElt to look at these two Hybrid lists in particular as they share many common points with his list, and between them he might see some ways to improve his list without butchering it. I also listed them here to show that his list is very similar and he could have used their ratings to see where his stands.
Hybrid Kill teams very limilar to this list
Slightly more competitive Hybrid list that is similar in many respects
« Last Edit: November 25, 2010, 07:00:56 AM by moc065 »
Join POC: Saim-Hann
or Read the Guide to Eldar
or read the Guide to Necrons


And Click here if you like Magic The Gathering

 


Powered by EzPortal