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Offline Azonalanthious

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'ard boyz list...
« on: February 8, 2011, 07:54:04 PM »
So I continue to play around with ideas for 'ard boyz lists as I slowly and surely trying to get my ork army into something that is vaguely WYSIWYG.  Here is what I have semi-nailed down (I think...):

HQ:
-Warboss w/ big choppa, warbike
-Big Mek w/ Kff

Elites:
-5x kommandos w/ Snikrot, 2 burnas

Troops:
-10x nob bikers, painboy, 3 pks, 3 big choppas, boss pole, waaagh banner, 2x kombi-skorcha, 2x kombi-rokkit
-30x sluga/choppa boyz, nob with pk and bosspole
-30x sluga/choppa boyz, nob with pk and bosspole

Fast Attack:
-3x warbuggies w/ rokkits
-3x warbuggies w/ rokkits
-3x warbuggies w/ rokkits

Heavy Support:
-3x killa kans w/ rokkits
-3x killa kans w/ rokkits
-3x killa kans w/ rokkits.


Now... that leaves me 340 points and I'm a bit torn on what to spend them on.  Some of my current thoughts:

-Another 30 boy squad (more boyz is always a good thing! And 90 boyz w/ 9 kans is kinda my norm for kan-wall lists).
-Couple of trukk boy squads to support the biker nobz
-A 12 boy squad (for hanging out for rear area objectives and for the trukk) and a burna squad to go in the trukk with the mek.
-Deffdread
-Some gretchin squads just for more troop wounds
-Nob squad (considering footslogging and trukk...)
-buffing up the kommando squad
-loota squad

Thoughts?  Suggestions?  Giant attack squads?


(Also, somewhat jokingly, I determined that I could in fact take 2 nob biker squads, 2 warbosses, and 180 gretchin.  If I could find/borrow enough gretchin models, I might even consider it)
« Last Edit: February 8, 2011, 08:02:03 PM by Azonalanthious »

Offline AXEBLADE

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Re: 'ard boyz list...
« Reply #1 on: February 8, 2011, 08:41:37 PM »
2 squads of boyz in trukks would work well as a first wave with the nob bikers. It also gives you 5 scoring units which is probably what you want at 2500 points.
11 Boyz plus nob with PK/BP in a trukk with ram and boarding plank =157 points per squad.
Leaving you with 26 points left over which can give you a couple more Kommandos to make them a little less of a one shot wonder.

I also don't like the kombi rokkits due to the ork BS but I do know some people have used them effectively and they do give you wound allocation.

Offline Azonalanthious

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Re: 'ard boyz list...
« Reply #2 on: February 8, 2011, 08:43:50 PM »
Yeah, they are mostly there for allocation purposes, but every once and a while they have come through for me.  Which is more then a twin-linked shoota, 'eavy armor, or a ammo runt will do for a biker.  ;)

Offline the_humble_terminator

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Re: 'ard boyz list...
« Reply #3 on: February 8, 2011, 10:28:06 PM »
actually, i would split the nob bikers into 2 squads, that way you can not just have 1 huge squad, make one squad be your first squad that is so dangerous they have to kill it. then that leaves the troop squad to be the one you strike with. allocate with gear as needed. two squads of 5 almost always work for me.
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Offline Azonalanthious

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Re: 'ard boyz list...
« Reply #4 on: February 8, 2011, 10:42:49 PM »
actually, i would split the nob bikers into 2 squads, that way you can not just have 1 huge squad, make one squad be your first squad that is so dangerous they have to kill it. then that leaves the troop squad to be the one you strike with. allocate with gear as needed. two squads of 5 almost always work for me.

Thanks for the advice, but nope, not gonna do it.  ;)  A 5 man squad can only allocate 5 wounds before losing a model and the squad is "shallower" -- your important models like the painboy and power klaws will be allocated too much earlier and its far easier to force multiple wounds onto them quickly (and so risk their early death) then it is in a 10 man squad.  While technically 2x 5 man squads can take the exact same amount of damage as a 10 man and their are some strategic benefits to using two squads instead of one, in actual practice, when wound allocating (which, being hard boyz and all, I will definately be doing), the 10 man squad is noticeably "tougher" then 2x 5s and that toughness is the main reason to take nob bikers in my opinion.  Additionally, I would have to then buy squad level benefits twice or drop them on one of the squads, which would be another 50 points right there on a unit that's already taking ~25% of my points.

Offline angel of death 007

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Re: 'ard boyz list...
« Reply #5 on: February 9, 2011, 02:35:21 AM »
Personally I would add in two trukk boy squads.  They can either strike as a first wave, act as a distraction while your line advances, contest forward objectives, or engage long range support. 

Boyz squads in trukks and then I think maybe 2 or 3 more kommandos.  Ard boyz you usually see more options in squads and more max type squads.  I loose on average about 4 boys before I get to strike.  You don't want those burnas to disappear (unless you already used them to drop templates) 

Aside from that the list looks pretty tough.   It has a good concentration of both short and longer range fire power.  Higher str shooting and assault capabilities and a good amount of durability. 

Should also give ya some options vs stuff like thunder calvary SW which you are more than likely to see.  Not to mention can insta kill stuff like plague marines.  And it is just the right amount of models... where adding another unit of 30 boys will just be a pain to move them all and will cause you to cluster things up quite a bit meaning that ordinance will hit ya even harder. 

Offline SKEETERGOD

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Re: 'ard boyz list...
« Reply #6 on: February 9, 2011, 10:14:19 AM »
I would add a cybork body and attack squig to the boss. As you have him equipped he is a dreadnought killer and will be good against 90% of all the tanks and transports you might run into. Six attacks on the charge is usually enough to kill whatever he charged.

Add in a drive by squad of truck boys. 12 boys, nob with boss pole and big shoota. (you upgrade one boy to big shoota and then upgrade that one to the nob) riding in a truck with ram (for terrain) and you have a good pain in the tactics unit. They can be a fire base unit, a support unit, or the take and hold an objective unit.

Then use the rest of the points to add more kommandoes.

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Offline Deathpepper

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Re: 'ard boyz list...
« Reply #7 on: February 9, 2011, 02:28:17 PM »
How about 2 small loota units.  Even more firepower and they're less likely to be targetted much with the scary biker nobs and such on the table. 

I like the list already, tho.   ;D

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Offline the_humble_terminator

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Re: 'ard boyz list...
« Reply #8 on: February 9, 2011, 03:11:43 PM »
actually, i would split the nob bikers into 2 squads, that way you can not just have 1 huge squad, make one squad be your first squad that is so dangerous they have to kill it. then that leaves the troop squad to be the one you strike with. allocate with gear as needed. two squads of 5 almost always work for me.

Thanks for the advice, but nope, not gonna do it.  ;)  A 5 man squad can only allocate 5 wounds before losing a model and the squad is "shallower" -- your important models like the painboy and power klaws will be allocated too much earlier and its far easier to force multiple wounds onto them quickly (and so risk their early death) then it is in a 10 man squad.  While technically 2x 5 man squads can take the exact same amount of damage as a 10 man and their are some strategic benefits to using two squads instead of one, in actual practice, when wound allocating (which, being hard boyz and all, I will definately be doing), the 10 man squad is noticeably "tougher" then 2x 5s and that toughness is the main reason to take nob bikers in my opinion.  Additionally, I would have to then buy squad level benefits twice or drop them on one of the squads, which would be another 50 points right there on a unit that's already taking ~25% of my points.

another point i forgot to make in my post, if you do take the 2 5 man squads, you will then be able to divide your opponent's shooting, making it harder for them to destroy the squad, if yu merely have 1 squad, it makes it much easier to evaluate "hmmmm what to shoot?" all i was saying, just wanted to remind you of that too.
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If they send Terminators back in time every time they are about to lose....but instead...they send them to the point at which judgement day occurred...and each time after, send to about 3 months after the time they last received a terminator...The resistance would lose a lot quicker. As the technology would actually be improving too fast for the resistance to react.....The Terminator series would end...and Skynet would have won.

Offline Azonalanthious

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Re: 'ard boyz list...
« Reply #9 on: February 9, 2011, 03:49:05 PM »
A point, but frankly, if my enemy is willing to waste the amount of shooting needed to destroy a fully wound allocated nob biker squad, ignoring the rest of my army, I'm perfectly willing to let them.  360 bolter shots at average dice rolls and marine BS -- I love tossing that number out for marine players and watching their eyes bulge.  :D  I have yet to ever have a full biker squad accompanied by a warboss be completely destroyed -- and I've seem some folks put some very serious efforts into it.  It can happen certainly, but it takes some good luck, or a lot of effort, or (the most likely) a last prince and multiple pie plates. 

And if they aren't willing to focus fire on them and split it between them and the rest of the army, they are unlike to do enough damage to the bikers soon enough to matter.  Baring large templates of doom of course and even then I think I might prefer them on the bikers who have some ability to handle it then blowing up a dozen boyz a shot, though that would depend on the tactical situation.

If I was on the opposite side of the table from a list like this, I would probably at least give serious consideration to just ignoring the bikers all together, though I don't say I would decide that way for sure -- they can generally only eat a unit a turn and in 2500 points, you should have enough units to afford that while you focus on destroying the rest of the army.
« Last Edit: February 9, 2011, 03:52:14 PM by Azonalanthious »

Offline angel of death 007

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Re: 'ard boyz list...
« Reply #10 on: February 9, 2011, 04:10:46 PM »
How about 2 small loota units.  Even more firepower and they're less likely to be targetted much with the scary biker nobs and such on the table. 

Problem with that is fire lanes and  finding adequate cover for both units.  Fire lanes in large games are a big problem as the lootas will more than likely have a unit between them and their target.  Well this really isn't an issue when it comes to MC's (because they usually get a save anyway) It can be an issue when targeting transports or armor that might not otherwise get a save. 

You also have a few other issues... lootas can't take bosspoles and if they loose 2 members to incoming fire run the risk of running off the board.  Their crappy BS means that with a unit of 5 if they only roll to get one shot a turn more than likely they will be lucky if their shooting has any effect at all.  I can pretty much guarantee it won't even remotely hurt a MC.   So your targets change drastically IMHO when you take smaller units. 

A point, but frankly, if my enemy is willing to waste the amount of shooting needed to destroy a fully wound allocated nob biker squad, ignoring the rest of my army, I'm perfectly willing to let them.  360 bolter shots at average dice rolls and marine BS -- I love tossing that number out for marine players and watching their eyes bulge.  :D  And if they aren't willing to focus fire on them and split it between them and the rest of the army, they are unlike to do enough damage to the bikers soon enough to matter.  Baring large templates of doom of course and even then I think I might prefer them on the bikers who have some ability to handle it then blowing up a dozen boyz a shot, though that would depend on the tactical situation.

If I was on the opposite side of the table from a list like this, I would probably at least give serious consideration to just ignoring the bikers all together, though I don't say I would decide that way for sure -- they can generally only eat a unit a turn and in 2500 points, you should have enough units to afford that while you focus on destroying the rest of the army.

Ya i found it best to just ignore them and if you space your units out fairly well or put a MC or dread into the  mix it works as a great deterrence.  Nob bikers hardly ever take Cybork as they are already very points heavy and have their own little cover save.   The problem is that Dreads or anything with a DCCW can insta gib them.  Playing a kan wall list Nob Bikers or thunder calvary don't bother me so much as usually they have to take out my dreads and kans to be totally effective and in doing so usually costs their expensive squad dearly.  It goes both ways...  But in all honesty I only got 150 points invested in 3 kans or 90 in a dread so to tie up 600- 700 points for a turn or two plus slow up my opponents plan is all something I am willing to take. 

In a large points game like ard boyz you can splurge a bit by taking a unit of Nob Bikers or insert your uber unit of choice.  The biggest problem I have had and why I don't field uber units is that they hardly ever get their points back.  You figure your first turn more than likely will be spent on moving...  ard boyz is timed down my way so you are lucky in any timed tournament to get 3 rounds in.  So if you are lucky you get 2 rounds of combat with them..   potentially eliminating 300- 400 points of your opponents army...  judging if everything goes well and you break or destroy a unit a turn.  (average unit cost between 150-200). 

A smart opponent will just ignore them.  Granted they can be a bit of a pain as with a Boss on a bike they become a scoring unit and can contest / claim objectives.  But if you focus on taking out the other aspects of your opponents army you will often find most armies built around one unit don't carry the support they need.  At 2500 points this changes a bit..  but at the 1500 to even 2000 points level it is hard to support an uber unit. 

At the last tournament I went to I had more opponents after playing me fear my army then another players army with a large nob biker unit.  Not to mention I beat him in my 2nd game of the tourny.  His army was pretty solid as it imployed 3 larger units of Lootas as a support plus 2 trukk squads of boyz and an ard boyz squad in a battlewagon w/ deff rolla.  He played his army well though.  But couldn't take mine apart in the 3 turns he had (timed tournament)   

Nob bikers are fast and hard to deal with but have to rely on striking at the right types of targets as well. 

Offline Azonalanthious

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Re: 'ard boyz list...
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2011, 12:33:08 PM »
Alrighty...

So, based on the feedback so far, I'm thinking:

12 'ard boyz w/ nob w/ pk, bosspole in
trukk w/ boarding plank
10x more kommandos in the squad

Trukk boyz will be there to support the bikers of course, not 2 trukk squads as some have suggested but the 1 trukk is a bit tougher to balance that out, kommandos are now large enough to hopefully be more then a pop in, kill, then die squad.

So that leaves me with 40 points...   Warboss upgrades (cybork, attack squig, some armor on the mek maybe?)  Min-sized squad of gretchin for a small rear area troops choice?  Despise what I just suggested and think I should change it up entirely?

Offline angel of death 007

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Re: 'ard boyz list...
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2011, 03:12:18 PM »
Cybork upgrade for the boss would be good.  A small squad of gretchen you could use to hold a rear objective.. or line them against the side of the board to kinda limit where outflankers can come in.

As far as adding too much to the kommandos, depending on what time they come in they still have a strong potential to only be a one trick pony.  If they come in too early usually they won't have enough support to not get shot to pieces after their intial entrance and assault.  Main thing you gotta be able to do is absorb the kills and get to strike back especially with your burnas as power weapons (depending on your opponent) but for MEQ armor this is needed. 

The ard boyz is a good choice for a trukk squad so they should work just fine to support your nob bikers.   

Offline Azonalanthious

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Re: 'ard boyz list...
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2011, 09:07:54 PM »
Yeah, but I'm thinking at best (worst) the kommandos are still coming in turn 2 -- bikers usually turbo turn 1 and so should be into the line turn 2, trukk boyz have a good chance of doing the same, so on a turn 2 arrival they should at least be able to come in near that group for support if required, with the situation on the board and coming in later then 2 potentially opening up more options for them.

Offline angel of death 007

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Re: 'ard boyz list...
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2011, 10:57:15 PM »
If you are using the kommandos for a support for the nobs / trukks then yes, they would work better in a larger group and since they are supported will work well. 

I usually use mine to hit support elements though.  Namely devestators, broadsides, heavy weapon teams, or lightly armored ordinance.  This stuff usually sits in the corner of the field without much support.  Ideally your nob bikers and trukk boyz will be striking faster moving targets or large threat targets.  I don't think that either will be able to strike back field...  especially with an army the size of ard boyz.   2500 points tends to buy a lot of units or a lot of toys.  Either way it gives you a lot more to deal with.  I would consider using them more to take out support elements then to support your nob bikers.  The bikers with the ard boyz should be a pretty solid forward group.  Able to cause a lot of chaos on the move and strike fast.  Taking out a support element will cripple your opponents ability to pound your second wave.  Once that wave hits it should be able to hammer your opponent.  As most opponents will probably be directing too much fire power / units to trying to deal with the forward wave and / or kommandos in their back field. 

That is how my kommandos and deff koptas work anyway.  They cause enough distraction for my wall to get into position.  Seeing as how your nob bikers and trukk will be able to get to your opponent quickly they will probably utilize any uber units they have to trying to deal with the nob bikers. 

 


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