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Offline Master Bio-Titan BT

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Any Chaos Players Still Around?
« on: February 19, 2015, 12:27:03 PM »
Hey guys!  Activity has been non-existent since the return of the forums.  Anyone still active?  What can we do to bring action back to the forum?


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Re: Any Chaos Players Still Around?
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2015, 01:04:01 PM »
Are you referring specifically to the Chaos board, or the forum in general?  The Chaos board has been very inactive since long before the forum went down.
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Offline Master Bio-Titan BT

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Re: Any Chaos Players Still Around?
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2015, 11:00:51 AM »
It was in response to the Chaos board specifically.  Trying to get an idea of how to generate new topics, interests, etc.  I guess that's typical of in between codex editions.


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Offline Wyddr

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Re: Any Chaos Players Still Around?
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2015, 11:44:43 AM »
The problem, as it stands, is that many if not *most* people have written off the Chaos Marines list as super-dull and not very good (both untrue, by the way) and they feel as though the tactics for using them is established and settled (also untrue).

If you want to generate conversation, I'd suggest throwing out tactical ideas or army-builds that you think are both (1) unorthodox and (2) fun/effective.

As for Chaos Daemons, it's kinda the same thing--they're old news and people don't seem to like them (which is crazy, by the by, since CD are *awesome*). If you want more conversation, start more conversations.

By the way, this gives me an idea of a topic. Go check it out.

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Re: Any Chaos Players Still Around?
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2015, 11:51:46 AM »
I've split this topic, since it goes wider than Chaos Undivided.

The problem is that there is still the perception that the Chaos Codex is dull and doesn't have the variety of the 3.5 codex.  I agree with Wyddr that this is not the case, but it seems to be a significant factor in a lack of interest in Chaos Space Marine armies.

The only way to combat inactivity is to post topics for discussion.  Even that doesn't guarantee that there will be responses, but there definitely won't be anything to talk about if no topics are started.
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Offline khaine

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Re: Any Chaos Players Still Around?
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2015, 01:12:42 PM »
Yup still a Chaos player and still working on an ever growing army (Parts for my Slaanesh Knight Titan are printing as I type)

Why did I stop posting here as often as I use to? Short version would be that at one point the Chaos forum became so toxic with the attitude of the self proclaimed “big dogs” that I (And a number of other regular Chaos posters) just stopped bothering and found other forums.

The “big dogs” moved on, but once somebody chances posting habits it takes a lot to get them to change back.

Why don’t I post here currently? Inactivity breeds inactivity. I don't post because nobody else posts, they don't post because I don't and so it spirals downwards.  :-\

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Offline MagicJuggler

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Re: Any Chaos Players Still Around?
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2015, 11:47:28 AM »
I'm actually getting back into Chaos; I remember *both* the Pete Haines codex and the Gav Thorpe one, and would honestly say I still prefer this one to the previous one. I had skipped out on 6th edition due to professional commitments but am back and gaming since then. Several things I imagine hurt Chaos's image include the following:

Note: I'm not discussing Forgeworld, because IA 13 is a whole different topic in its own right. Likewise, I don't play unbound/generally work within the "2 detachments" restriction of assorted tourneys:

* "Free" Chapter Tactics on Marines: This is a big one. A lot of the complaints/wishlists for Chaos I've come across tend to either revolve around making Marks cheaper/free, or giving "Legion Tactics". Personally, I'm a "your dudes/customizer" type, and found the Chapter Tactics implementation of vanilla marines to be rather ham-fisted. "Ok, they 'count as White Scars'. Ok, they 'count as Raven Guard'." While it's "better" than how 5th ed Marines 'Count as Ultramarines unless you have a Special Character that says otherwise...", I honestly wish that Loyalist Marines were given an updated trait system. That's something for another discussion though; point is, Marines get *more* than Chaos Marines, at initial purchase (I dislike "unit-vs-unit" comparisons, but they're there).

* "Heldrake OP, please nerf": The Marine statline is very common, what with 4 different Loyalist Marine codexes, not to mention Grey Knights and Necrons. Combined with ease of getting cover, and simply deleting units of Marines was unheard of. Then the Heldrake came. It ignored armor. It ignored cover. It ignored firing arcs. It was resilient to anti-aircraft, and could also fly over stuff and wreck it too. Unfortunately, it quickly became a crutch unit, an auto-take. Come 7e, and Heldrakes getting a regular firing arc (they're still deadly, plus they can still hover.)...

For me, I would say the most legitimate complaints are ones of poor army composition. There are a *LOT* of good-to-great units in the army. Even Elites, the weakest section of the list, has its choice of performing units. However, when you put the pieces together, you'll notice the following:

* Your long-range anti-tank is exclusive to your Heavy Support slot. Everything else operates within a 24" range bracket. You "could" run Helbrutes, but you lose out on efficiency. You *could* run Noise Marines, but if they're not blasting infantry...

* Your fast units are either your HQs or your Fast Attack (which have historically competed with heldrakes), or you could sacrifice some of your Heavy Support to add a Maulerfiend. Usually, you'll put your HQ *in* your Fast Attack.

* With the HS and FA slots completely clogged up, you turn to Troops and Elites. If Forgeworld is allowed, rejoice for you have Dreadclaws. If not, you'll see folks run minimal cultist squads (so they can take more toys), or small Marine units with Havoc Rhinos. You won't see: Bikers, infiltrators, transports with long-range anti-tank, or many other things which ease pressure off the FA/HS. A lot of the Elites are basically upscaled Troops, with similar slowness.


So rather than giving Legion Tactics, more Fearless, lots of point adjustments here and there (though I'd enjoy a point break on the Defiler :) ), if I were asked how to fix Chaos with a simple band-aid fix, I would say the following:

* Move Maulerfiends & Forgefiends to Elites.

This puts *less* pressure on the FA/HS slots and lets you have more freedom in designing your list. And a flexible codex with more build options means you're less predictable ("Gee, an Eldar player. Probably with lots of Wave Serpents, Jetbikes, perhaps a Wraithknight for interdicting units sent to hunt serpents, and perhaps Hawks for objective-grabbing and dismantling knights...").
« Last Edit: February 23, 2015, 12:11:37 AM by MagicJuggler »

Offline Wyldhunt

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Re: Any Chaos Players Still Around?
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2015, 01:02:03 PM »
Those are some great points, MJ, but I can't say that they reflect my own personal reasons for being turned away from chaos (despite having several chaos armies that I like the idea of). 

For me, it's not that the slots are clogged or that loyalists get "more."  It's that the things I want to represent on the tabletop either aren't an option or are ineffective enough to be discouraging.  A few of the armies I want to run include:

Thousand Sons:  Unless you're being targeted by AP3 or better, 1k Sons (the unit) just don't feel like the damage sponges they're meant to be.  Every non-prince psyker in a Thousand Sons army is still prone to randomly mutating mid-combat despite their fluff. The psykers, who at one point would have been the perfect representatives of the main disciplines in the BRB, are forced to take Tzeentch powers which are all lacklustre in one way or another (with the exception of the beam). 

I've wound up working on a fan 'dex for the 'Sons as a result.

Alpha Legion:  Unless you just happen to get luck and roll a warlord trait that lets you infiltrate some  units, you have no real way to represent the sneaky infiltration of the Alpha Legion. You can always say that their sneakyness and sabotage happened in the background of the fight, but then it still isn't represented on the tabletop.  Cultists as they exist in the rules also don't represent Alpha Legion cultists very well.  They're better at being wild rabble than hand-picked operatives trained for specific missions.  I'm okay with the Legion's tendency to have access to the latest and greatest tech through suspicious means not being represented, but if I played Raven Guard, I could have outflankers, stolen vehicles/tech, and even IG or inquisitorial allies to reflect my cultists.

My wish list for the Legion includes pricier, better-trained cultists with smaller unit sizes that can be joined by an astartes character.  Also, some way to infiltrate/outflank. I have other wishes, but I think these would both go a long way to representing their character.

Several flavors of daemons:  The problem I run into with daemons is that they're just too random.  I know chaos tends to come across as a bit shoggothy with ever-changing anatomy and such, but it lends itself poorly to giving an army character that can be represented on the battlefield.  Say I want a Slaaneshi daemon that's famous for its ability to fill the minds of its foes with tempting illusions. Unless I happen to roll the right power, I can't do that.  Maybe I want to represent a herald that started its invasion of the materium by possessing a statue of itself by giving it the iron skin gift.  Unless I happen to roll that gift, I can't do that. daemons are perfectly effective these days, but I'm not really allowed to represent any customized fluff on the tabletop with them. Much like with Alpha Legion, I'm pretty much stuck leaving my fluff in the backstory.

Sorry for a bit of a rant there.  Hope that wasn't too off-topic. ^_^;

Offline Sanctjud

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Re: Any Chaos Players Still Around?
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2015, 11:27:01 PM »
Nope, all the Chaos players found Warmachine and found their true calling: Cryx.


:3


Has Chaos not changed all that much since the last time I was here..... oh ...... around when the Grey Knights got their own codex......
Are biker marines still viable? I know it's not exactly 'Chaos', but count-as is the name of the game, yo.
Are fliers ruling the sky?
Is codex creep running rampant?
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Offline Wyddr

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Re: Any Chaos Players Still Around?
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2015, 09:36:38 AM »
The issues these days isn't really codex creep so much as the Army Composition rules being so lax that Super Combos are running rampant.

Flyers? Not a big deal, really.
Biker Marines? White Scars are apparently fantastic these days. Ravenwing is popular, too (though I've not had much trouble with them)

Offline Sanctjud

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Re: Any Chaos Players Still Around?
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2015, 11:16:49 AM »
So, how's Nurgle these days? Lots of Str 7 AP3 stuff these days?
I was going through my stuff in storage and stumbled upon my Deathguard.

Was kind of interested in greenstuffing stuff.
Although, I think my converted Vindicator/Rhinos are lost forever/trashed.

I still have my Deamon Princes!!  Are they still disappointing??
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Offline Wyddr

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Re: Any Chaos Players Still Around?
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2015, 12:55:25 PM »
Nurgle is still pretty good--Plague Marines are still a hell of a value for what you get. Daemon Princes are overly expensive to field, but they can be pretty useful, depending on how you kit them. Overall, though, Chaos is a mid-shelf army list.

Now, if you are open to allies, Chaos/Daemons can be pretty damned good, depending on how you build it. Oh, and by playing around with detachments, you could conceivably field the old Iron Warriors 6 x Vindicators/Predators thing. Hell, you could probably even swing a bunch of Basilisks.

Oh, and Havocs are decent these days, too! 

Offline MagicJuggler

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Re: Any Chaos Players Still Around?
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2015, 07:01:57 PM »
Like many other tournaments, there is a bit of "drama/what could have been" with regards to the winners. The top winner was Sean Nayden with Tyranids, but during his 3rd-to-last match, he fought against Nick Nanivati whom was running a Fateweaver list.

Apparently, in a previous match the two players had, Nanivati made the mistake of rolling It Will Not Die for his Soulgrinders (Defilers get it, Soulgrinders don't), and it kept them going that it ultimately won him the game. Nick said "my mistake, to make it up to you, I won't use Fateweaver's Warp Storm reroll, or the Grimoire of True Names." And unlike the Daemons he commanded, Nick was true to his word. Despite this, it was a *close* match, that there was/is a lot of speculation that he could have ended up winning the match and potentially the tournament (Me? I'm iffy on that. He *really* has a thing for playing deathstar armies in general...)

Nowadays I'm testing out a Chaoscron list, and it...has promise. I posted it in the Necron thread simply because it was the "Primary" part of the CAD.

Offline Exalted One

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Re: Any Chaos Players Still Around?
« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2015, 12:44:38 PM »
I feel many players stopped being active when the 7th ed came. For me that was the reason. The 6th ed was only two years old, and the whole thing started to feel just one complete rip-off. Yeah, the books look better. But are the rules? Is there anything else in this speeding to new edition ecxept BUY NEW STUFF AND GIVE US YOUR MONEYS? I'm playing still old edition, but I do that with my kids, there no need for us to upgrade. I would want to though, but I didn't get to play even one game on last edition. Not one. So I guess I'm gonna sit this one out, maybe grap me some pdf:s if they come my way, but I'm not spending a dime on 7th edition. Maybe the next one. 

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