Topic: Lictors for 6th; trying to fix them

[faitherun (Fay-ith-er-run)]

So this is my attempt at making Lictors playable again...

Points: same as codex
Stats: same as codex
Weapons and biomorphs: same as codex
Special rules: same as codex - minus IB-Lurk, add Brood Telepathy, and Shrouded.

Changes:
Allows for charging on the turn they arrive.
Do not allow for overwatch against lictors charging
Change type to IC, not able to join any other unit


Options:

• Replace Rending claws with Lash Whip for Free or with a Bone Sword (single) for +15 pts.
  
• Take Adrenal Glands for +10 pts
• Take Implant attack for +10 pts
• Take Toxin Sacs for + 10 pts
• Take Hardened Carapace for + 10 pts or Bonded Exoskeleton for + 25 pts

Thoughts?

[Locarno]

Hmm.....

First thoughts:

I concur that lictors could do with something. However, they are one of the classic 'genofixed' species - unlike, say, warriors, they are adapted for a critical battlefield role and aren't supposed to vary - so I'm not a fan of adding options. My preference is either incorporate them into the lictor profile or let them go.

Brood Telepathy....I wouldn't call it that - as that's very much a 'stealer thing - but I agree freedom from instinctive behaviour would be nice. High leadership means it doesn't matter often but it'd be nice if it didn't at all. Lictors are supposed to be independent and still tactically smart, even though they're not synapse creatures.

[Guildmage Aech]

I think being able to charge is all it needs, perhaps a price review.
I do t think you need to deny overwatch, panicky reaction fire is the fluffy way to shoot a lictor!

I did have a thought about letting it auto recover from pinning so it can go to ground and then run off but while a rule called "Where did it go?" would be amusing its rules just for the sake of rules, stealth works just as well and saves text!


Instead of being an IC that can't join units just list it as a character, same effect less words. Like Locarno I think an independent rule should be fine, just not brood telepathy... They aren't in a brood! I know this is the opposite of my previous point but its a makes sense thing!

[faitherun (Fay-ith-er-run)]

Hmm.....

First thoughts:

I concur that lictors could do with something. However, they are one of the classic 'genofixed' species - unlike, say, warriors, they are adapted for a critical battlefield role and aren't supposed to vary - so I'm not a fan of adding options. My preference is either incorporate them into the lictor profile or let them go.

Brood Telepathy....I wouldn't call it that - as that's very much a 'stealer thing - but I agree freedom from instinctive behavior would be nice. High leadership means it doesn't matter often but it'd be nice if it didn't at all. Lictors are supposed to be independent and still tactically smart, even though they're not synapse creatures.

Hmm, I had not remembered that they were supposed to be genofixed... That does hamper it a bit. To that extenet, I would probably give them the Adrenal Glands and Implant Attack, but none of the other options...

As for Brood Telpathy, that was simply me using a rule already in place. Basically, I want those rules, although perhaps with a different name...

I think being able to charge is all it needs, perhaps a price review.
I do t think you need to deny overwatch, panicky reaction fire is the fluffy way to shoot a lictor!


Instead of being an IC that can't join units just list it as a character, same effect less words. Like Locarno I think an independent rule should be fine, just not brood telepathy... They aren't in a brood! I know this is the opposite of my previous point but its a makes sense thing!

That makes sense to simply list it as a Character... simply didn't think of that...

As for denying over watch or not... I see your point...


What would you all think of a different weapon? Say Diamond Hard Rending Claws:A Lictor's Diamond Hard Rending Claws are meant to be used with a precision not afforded to lesser assault creatures, able to find the weak points in armor with supernatural ease.

All rolls to hit of a 6 will automatically wound and count as Rending

Basically I want to give them the old rending rules. I thought those really helped the Tyranid army as a whole. Especially for something 4 attacks on the charge, we need every one of them to hurt.

[Idaho]

I know it's an old topic but I had a really good idea and wanted to help. Hope that's ok?

I had the idea that Lictor Broods had the following rule:

Bio-Assassains (name could do with work) - Although not characters, the Tyranid player can declare a challenge if he wishes. The opponent cannot refuse. If he does so, the entire Brood fights in the challenge, counting as a single model.

[Chuckles, The Space Marine Clown]

That's a bit confusing. If the opponent cannot refuse to accept the challenge why put in rules about what happens when somebody refuses?

[Idaho]

Yeah that's a problem stemming from my mobile and copy and pasting!

Read it as "When involved in a challenge..." instead of "if he does so,"

Regardless I believe it's pretty fluffy and makes the unit quite dangerous against Characters!

[Khira'lyth]

Hope I'm not dredging this too far out of the graveyard, but Lictors have long been a pet of mine that I (sadly) have not seen in the limelight for some time. 

I would love to see them return (or, perhaps, come for the first time) to a proper place within our ranks.  A few thoughts on the matter...

-Giving all Lictors the Deathleapers enhanced Rending would set them apart within the army, and IIRC, mathwise would be very similar to the original rending that Tyranids had.
-Make Feeder Tendrils do something!  I get that people complained about 1 point preferred enemy for our Stealers, but did anyone actually look at what it meant??  We were (with that upgrade) still paying more for a lower performance unit (than the previous incarnation).  It looked great, but it wasn't.  Feeder Tendrils could easily do something useful without breaking the bank in terms of power level.

I like genofixed, because it always has been.  I also have to say that I'm not a fan of Adrenal Glands on this guy, because he's already got some of the highest (non-MC) S/I in the codex, and I don't think it needs to become our newest anti-tank Chuck Norris.

So what do I think it should actually look like, instead of just a random list of thoughts and ideas?  How about something like this...

Stats - per Codex
Elite choice, 1 per brood, 1-3 individual Broods per slot (ah, the good 'ole days)

Special Rules
-Chameleonic Scales - Deployment as current, with stipulation allowing to Assault.  If a Lictor assaults in the Assault Phase directly after being deployed, it counts as having Defensive Grenades
-Killing Strike (Rends on a 5+, a la Death Leaper)
-Lone Hunter - not subject to Instinctive Behavior
-Assassin's Intellect - If a Lictor assaults on the same turn as it is deployed, it may Challenge as if it were a Character.  If it does so, the challenge must be accepted.
-Where'd It Go? - If a Lictor ends its turn not locked in combat, it may withdraw into Ongoing Reserves.  It may only redeploy via the Chameleonic Scales rule above.
-Pheremone Trail - As current, but the +1 bonus is in effect regardless of whether or not the Lictor is currently on the board.  It does not take effect if the Lictor has been removed as a casualty.  Yes, the +1 is cumulative.

Fleet, Move Through Cover, Shrouded, Hit and Run

I'm thinking something along the 100 point line or so.  Feel free to submit your own cost for this bugger, however.

So what's it good at?  Causing a ruckus, mainly.  It turns the Lictor into the lone stalker that it used to be, and has been for so long.  Sure you can Raptor-pack against something nasty if you need to, but these guys operate on the outskirts - they're our Marbo.
It's very offensive, especially popping out of reserves.  The bonuses are strictly thus because late game you can use him to contest and objective or get linebreaker, but kill-wise he's best as a hit-and-run figure using guerrilla tactics. 
In terms of actual capabilities, he's great at sniping squad leaders and other slightly-above-joe-schmoe's.  This will cause discord among the ranks (killing Ld buffs), but if you pit him against an HQ type, his fairly fragile nature will start to show.  Hit hard, hit fast, and don't get hit back.  Also why the Def Grenades got thrown in - that first (or subsequent) pop from nowhere is extra disconcerting and confusing, giving him a better stealth effect temporarily.

Thoughts?

Khira'lyth

[faitherun (Fay-ith-er-run)]

Khira'lyth, I can agree to most of what you have.

I like the old force org you used.

I don't see the defensive grenades. He simply is not defensive in nature. Other than that, I agree with most of what you have there. I would like to see him with a 4+ save though...

I do think this would fix the lictor... may have to play test him now.

[Khira'lyth]

You'll note, though, that he only counts has having defensive grenades if *he charges* right after appearing.  The only thing this does, in practice, is to give him the Stealth special rule (assuming you popped up beside your target, and not more than 8" away) for any snapfire.

This is meant to represent the extra-sneakiness of his Camo, going from completely hidden to in-your-face in a matter of seconds.  However, perhaps just calling it Stealth instead of Def Grenades, to account for future changes to said grenade rules (and people wondering why a charging assault beast wants D grenades anyway).

Also note that I meant for him to keep the current Flesh Hooks, giving him both a small shooting attack and frag equivalents.

Khira'lyth

[Gunner_Sabot_Tank]

Special Rules
-Chameleonic Scales - Deployment as current, with stipulation allowing to Assault.  If a Lictor assaults in the Assault Phase directly after being deployed, it counts as having Defensive Grenades
-Killing Strike (Rends on a 5+, a la Death Leaper)
-Lone Hunter - not subject to Instinctive Behavior
-Assassin's Intellect - If a Lictor assaults on the same turn as it is deployed, it may Challenge as if it were a Character.  If it does so, the challenge must be accepted.
-Where'd It Go? - If a Lictor ends its turn not locked in combat, it may withdraw into Ongoing Reserves.  It may only redeploy via the Chameleonic Scales rule above.
-Pheremone Trail - As current, but the +1 bonus is in effect regardless of whether or not the Lictor is currently on the board.  It does not take effect if the Lictor has been removed as a casualty.  Yes, the +1 is cumulative.

Fleet, Move Through Cover, Shrouded, Hit and Run

I'm thinking something along the 100 point line or so.  Feel free to submit your own cost for this bugger, however.

I've been thinking about this for the last day now. While I will admit I'm brand new to Tyranids, I do remember some Lictor fluff from the days of the old Catachan Codex. To me, the Lictor would likely as not never charge a whole squad. Instead, he'd wait till he can pick them off in ones and twos, your flankers, rearguard, maybe lead scouts. Instead of your Assassin's Intellect, how about something like the Lictor, if alone in his brood, declares his charge, not against the squad but against any one specific model within the squad. That model gets Overwatch (maybe only on an Initiative test?) and then those two fight as though in a challenge but with no Moral Support. If the Lictor kills that model in the one round of combat, the dead model's squad takes either a leadership or initiative test to see if they notice. If they do, the phase ends with the squad and Lictor locked in combat. If they don't, the Lictor can choose to either withdraw into Ongoing Reserves or remain locked in combat with the squad. If the model survives that one round of combat with the Lictor then the phase ends with the whole squad engaged.

I don't know if this would be too clunky of a rule but I definitely think it would be more true to fluff. I know it would be way overpowered though at the current points cost so would need an appropriate adjustment there.

Edit: I've thought some more over this and, although it fits the fluff, it might be too overpowered even with a points increase. It would probably need some type of negative aspect worked into it, like the Lictor can only make such an assault once per game or the ability to charge like this can be purchased but only for a limited number of Lictors (1-2?) in the army.

[faitherun (Fay-ith-er-run)]

You'll note, though, that he only counts has having defensive grenades if *he charges* right after appearing.  The only thing this does, in practice, is to give him the Stealth special rule (assuming you popped up beside your target, and not more than 8" away) for any snapfire.

This is meant to represent the extra-sneakiness of his Camo, going from completely hidden to in-your-face in a matter of seconds.  However, perhaps just calling it Stealth instead of Def Grenades, to account for future changes to said grenade rules (and people wondering why a charging assault beast wants D grenades anyway).

Also note that I meant for him to keep the current Flesh Hooks, giving him both a small shooting attack and frag equivalents.

Khira'lyth

Yeah - I understand now what you mean. Def grenades just don't *sound* right on a Lictor...

I'd maybe only allow for overwatch to be fired on a successful I test? Or just give him stealth against shooting attacks within 12 inches...

Gunner, I like the idea of Lictors declaring challenges... maybe something to do with the feeder tendrils...

What if, for Hit & Run feeder tendrils allows him to pull one model in b2b with him - I test to not be pulled. That would allow for the 'challenge' that can't be refused...

[Gunner_Sabot_Tank]

[quote author=faitherun (Fay-ith-er-run)
Gunner, I like the idea of Lictors declaring challenges... maybe something to do with the feeder tendrils...

What if, for Hit & Run feeder tendrils allows him to pull one model in b2b with him - I test to not be pulled. That would allow for the 'challenge' that can't be refused...
[/quote]
That, or you could have it deal with his flesh hooks. On the turn he arrives, during his Shooting phase he can elect to shoot them at a specific model in the squad. They would hit automatically. If the model survives he would then take the appropriate test to see if he is pulled in to the Lictor. Rather similar to the Blood Angels Furioso Grapnel shot. The short max range would put some inherent limitations on the ability and would force a player to potentially choose between deploying within range or cover as the range would be to that model rather than the squad.

On a related note, I was looking over the model and comparing it to the rules and I don't think they quite fit. It's listed as having scything talons but, to me, those upper arms don't look like STs. Unless one of you old school tyranid players can tell me thats what STs looked like back in the day when they made the sculpt for the model. I think they look like the bastard offspring of a 3 way between an ST, a rending claw, and a lash whip. Maybe it could use a rule for a unique weapon. Perhaps one that takes from these 3 weapons like one reroll on a failed to hit and a negative modifier to Initiative of models in b2b. Not I1 like a true lash whip but maybe a -2 or -3.

[Khira'lyth]

@ Faitherun

I completely agree that Defensive Grenades sounds odd, but it gives the bonus desired, while maintaining some small balance in the 8" range (if it started too far away, you'd have time to see it bounding up to you).
A rather moot point, as you are able to start 1" away since you place it as you please, but if felt right to pretend to put a downside to it.
To say that it benefits from Stealth on the turn it deploys via Chem Scales may just be simpler.

@ Gunner

The current mold ST's are essentially a throwback to the original Lictor model.  A quick google image search for 2nd edition Lictor should pull up something for you to compare to, and you're likely to see the similarity.  They are highly stylized, but they are nonetheless scything talons.

@ the internets

On the note of challenges, while I love the idea of giving an undeniable challenge, I am starting to wonder if this may be too potent an ability.  One thing I (just now) thought of was the Lictor's ability as an assassin... since models are removed from BtB first, and you basically get to choose which model(s) is/are in BtB, he's going to take that guy out (probably) before anyone else reacts.  This is made weaker by being pack hunters now, but one could still take a single lictor in hopes to engage a lone sgt or heavy weapons member.

I guess in short, it may be unnecessary to include this particular rule.  Lictors are meant to prey on stragglers and those who get separated from the group... if you're able to target a sgt all the better, but the basic ability to Base the heavy weapon and have your blows strike on him may be quite enough for the canny player.  In fact, I've half a mind to try this tonight...

Khira'lyth