Topic: Improving the Astra Militarum

[Spectral Arbor]

Siege Drill?

Sanguinary Priest can give FNP all over the place, and it would be a reason to take a Medic. If limited to combining two squads, the benefit wouldn't be so bonkers.

[Calamity]

You literally read my mind!  As I was in town today I was wondering, should the Hades (or a similar vehicle) be made standard issue?  It is prefect for the job at hand.  And it's fluffy...the IG's answer to a drop pod.  These things would probably be better at taking a fort than an air assault!

It's easy to justify the Imperium sending out all these tunneling units yes?

And about medics...what if it give the squad a 6+ or 5+ FNP save, but if the squad numbers less than ten men it increases to 4+?  Or the ability to bestow FNP on a nearby unit?  Something like that?  Damn, I need to see the BA book now!

[Gunner_Sabot_Tank]

The one really fluffy thing I'd like to see, if it could be made to work w/o being too OP, would be a pre turn one artillery bombardment or air strike or something of the sort. No Guard commander worth his salt is gonna wait til his men are engaged before pounding the enemy position.

As for your idea to remove heavy weapons from infantry squads, perhaps compensate by allowing them to take an additional special weapon.

[Calamity]

The one really fluffy thing I'd like to see, if it could be made to work w/o being too OP, would be a pre turn one artillery bombardment or air strike or something of the sort. No Guard commander worth his salt is gonna wait til his men are engaged before pounding the enemy position.

It's a good idea, but how would it be implemented?

As for your idea to remove heavy weapons from infantry squads, perhaps compensate by allowing them to take an additional special weapon.

Yes I think that's fair.  Now an Armored Fist squad is a more appealing option. 

Oh, and I'd like Sgts to come with lasguns as standard, with the option to replace them with a laspistol or shotgun in addition to boltguns, bolt pistols or plasma pistols.  That's just a personal niggle. 

I think that's Infantry Platoons pretty much sorted.  Vet squads work very well as they are.  Maybe we could give them scouts?  I also don't like how they're suck at ten men.  Vets strike me as the sort of unit that would be very random in their make up.  Maybe the maximum size should be increased to up to twenty?  That might make foot squads with doctrines even more worth it?

And how do we squeeze Hades Drills into the list?

[The GrimSqueaker]

The one really fluffy thing I'd like to see, if it could be made to work w/o being too OP, would be a pre turn one artillery bombardment or air strike or something of the sort. No Guard commander worth his salt is gonna wait til his men are engaged before pounding the enemy position.

It's a good idea, but how would it be implemented?

Keeping in mind the old Ranger Disruption table and how hated that came to be for arbitrarily screwing around pre-game with deployment and/or opponent forces.

Also keep in mind how it'd feel to be used against you as every army could claim a pre-game adjustment due to their own particular fluff.

So - balance.

[Calamity]

The one really fluffy thing I'd like to see, if it could be made to work w/o being too OP, would be a pre turn one artillery bombardment or air strike or something of the sort. No Guard commander worth his salt is gonna wait til his men are engaged before pounding the enemy position.

It's a good idea, but how would it be implemented?

Keeping in mind the old Ranger Disruption table and how hated that came to be for arbitrarily screwing around pre-game with deployment and/or opponent forces.

Also keep in mind how it'd feel to be used against you as every army could claim a pre-game adjustment due to their own particular fluff.

So - balance.

Oh yeah, good point.

Maybe that wouldn't be a good idea after all.

[The GrimSqueaker]

As you said yourself, all depends on how it's implemented. Something fluffy without being an abomination is fine. Something Woo Hoo Look at me would be less fine. 

[Spectral Arbor]

I had a game last night / this early morning, and I need to eat a little crow.

The list I recently posted elsewhere... worked. I won my first meaningful game of 40k 8-2 [Emperor's Will, H&A Deployment] using that. Strategy was to have everything roll forward 6" a turn, Tanks in the middle with cheapo infantry surrounding them. I faced off against White Scars with a single Knight and a trio of Storm Talons [1850 pts] and I won. I would have nearly tabled him, except for a friggin INVISIBLE Librarian running around with the INVISIBLE Undying Chapter Master Smashface... that happened to roll the IWND Warlord trait.

So yeah, Invisible Chapter Master, on bike, dropping ordnance, smashing into stuff with a Thunder Hammer, jinking at MEQ levels, ignoring terrain... and if it weren't for IWND I would have killed him. I'm going to post a few pics once they're emailed over to me, but yeah. White Scars with Knights are a Tournament list and I beat it with the slow roll list I built. First time I've beaten them, and I've lost to them plenty.

So I owe Wydrr a beer or something. A slow, blob like advance of the majority of your force, with expendable infantry to surround them, did very well tonight. It's not the strongest build for that strategy, just uses models that I have, but based on a single outing, I feel that it is a viable strategy. So there's one light in the darkness.

Not a hands-down win, mind you. It ended at turn 5, and turn 6 would have seen the game switch to a 5-5 tie... but that would still be the best showing I've had so far against Scars / Knights, so that's a win in my book.

PS: Fishing for Invisibility is totally worth it. At worst, you get Psychic Shriek out of it, which is a pretty amazing power. At level 2, if you roll a crap power on the first try, you could ditch for Psy Shriek and then take the Primaris on Divination with a Prime Psyker, giving him two very useful, very reliable options.

Stick him in with some Infantry shields... or hide out of LOS in the parking lot. I'm pretty damned excited to see something working with Guard, so I'll be tweaking that list around if I can make up a handful of new models.

Hooray!

[faitherun (Fay-ith-er-run)]

The one really fluffy thing I'd like to see, if it could be made to work w/o being too OP, would be a pre turn one artillery bombardment or air strike or something of the sort. No Guard commander worth his salt is gonna wait til his men are engaged before pounding the enemy position.

It's a good idea, but how would it be implemented?

Keeping in mind the old Ranger Disruption table and how hated that came to be for arbitrarily screwing around pre-game with deployment and/or opponent forces.

Also keep in mind how it'd feel to be used against you as every army could claim a pre-game adjustment due to their own particular fluff.

So - balance.

Oh yeah, good point.

Maybe that wouldn't be a good idea after all.

This used to be a thing. Third ed I think. I wrecked havock with my nids using this rule and spore mines. It broke the game for me and my opponents.

So, that being had, it can be very op but I think it has some merit. I'll have to think upon this

[Calamity]

@ Spectral Arbor

Now that all sounds absolutely awesome!    May I congratulate you on your victory! 

See, there is light at the end of the tunnel!  The White Scars are high mobility which seemed like it was essential to win in this edition but you beat that with what the IG always do best...slow, bloody minded grinding down via attrition.  I had a feeling that this was the way forward for the IG.

So, after all that, do you think Chimeras with increased side armor and Heavy are a good idea?  Especially with our new Infantry Squads packing up to two Special Weapons now?  A tough tank moving along, firing multiple heavy weapons with the full firepower of an infantry squad (lasgun arrays and two specials out of the top hatch) in tow too?

This used to be a thing. Third ed I think. I wrecked havock with my nids using this rule and spore mines. It broke the game for me and my opponents.

So, that being had, it can be very op but I think it has some merit. I'll have to think upon this

Great, I look forward to any ideas you might have. 

Also guys, this is probably a stupid idea but would allowing the priests to take Battle Covens like their sister counterparts be a good idea?  I know that the priests are there to lead and inspire the troops, but sometimes they're there to lead Wars Of Faith as well.  It would add more strange grimdarkness to the force that the artwork shows...oh, and they would actually be largely unaffected by orders too, because none of them carry guns!  It might allow a player to take a priest with a coven as their leadership for an unorthodox force.

Yes?  No? 

[Spectral Arbor]

I am happy to have found something that seems to work. Still a sort-of Hybrid list, but instead of hybrid mobility, it's a hybrid of utterly disposable screens with "tough" vehicles. Not the way that I most enjoy playing Guard, but beats the crap out of being annihilated piece by piece.

PS: Plasma-Cutioner with the benefits of Preferred Enemy was a kind-of Death Star on it's own. Bypassing Invisibility was critical, even though White Scars were Jinking away most of the damage.

I don't think that Chimerae need Heavy, or that it would be in our best interest without granting "count as stationary" to our embarked squads. One unit of Vets broke off from the main group to support my Drop Scions / Vendetta + PCS on turn 3 or maybe 4. Either way, it went flat out for a turn to move to support, while the embarked unit snap shot at overhead Talons. If the game had gone to turn 6, they would have been the only option I had to claim / contest my opponent's objective. AV 12 on the sides would make their price tag reasonable. Even then, maybe a bit overpriced.

In light of needing to advance the Russ, they way I played them, I think they could use a buff to 4 HP. I mean, they're a Russ, right? I lost two in the same turn to Talons that skimmed in behind, and put 2/3 HP on both, despite their having an "intervening" models save. Even with higher AV on the Executioner was little protection against such high output of firepower. The extra HP would go a long way.

I don't know about Priest Covens, but I did run into one thing. The Commissar with upgraded CCW wasn't very valuable, in light of Challenges. Without chump characters to throw into the grinder, I had to deny a Challenge, wasting the invested points. Admittedly, it was against a single Biker Sergeant, and the remaining 13 'Scripts managed to pull him down, but had there been more than a single model charge them, I would have been tied up significantly longer. I'll sadly be swapping the 'Script's Commie back to a Priest. I can still gain the War Hymns benefit, and being out in the open left me little to no opportunity to go to ground until the end game anyhow... which I didn't need to do because I kept surrounding the two bikers with sacrifice squads.

Sacrifice infantry played a super-valuable role in that game, so benefits that enable that would be good. Cheaper Camo netting on the vehicles would also be VERY nice. I may need to make some netting shortly, it would have been very valuable.

[Calamity]

I don't think that Chimerae need Heavy, or that it would be in our best interest without granting "count as stationary" to our embarked squads. One unit of Vets broke off from the main group to support my Drop Scions / Vendetta + PCS on turn 3 or maybe 4. Either way, it went flat out for a turn to move to support, while the embarked unit snap shot at overhead Talons. If the game had gone to turn 6, they would have been the only option I had to claim / contest my opponent's objective. AV 12 on the sides would make their price tag reasonable. Even then, maybe a bit overpriced.

Well in light of that, I guess it is a bad idea.  OK, I'll drop the Heaviness, but an upgrade to side armor is a must.  AV12 all the way! 

In light of needing to advance the Russ, they way I played them, I think they could use a buff to 4 HP. I mean, they're a Russ, right? I lost two in the same turn to Talons that skimmed in behind, and put 2/3 HP on both, despite their having an "intervening" models save. Even with higher AV on the Executioner was little protection against such high output of firepower. The extra HP would go a long way.

An extra HP could work.  I always imagined though that HPs were based on how big the vehicle is, and a Russ isn't that big.  That's why I think Ork Battle Wagons should have 4 HPs, because they're huge!

I did always think that Leman Russes should have much thicker rear armour (RA 12 for regular variants, RA 13 for demolisher types), because they're supposed to be super tough MBTs.  I think either approach could work, but their point cost might need reevaluated.  What do you guys think?  An extra HP or thicker FA?

Sacrifice infantry played a super-valuable role in that game, so benefits that enable that would be good. Cheaper Camo netting on the vehicles would also be VERY nice. I may need to make some netting shortly, it would have been very valuable.

Maybe Conscript squads could be reduced to a minimum of ten men?  That would make them a super cheap sacrificial unit that could be created with only one box of infantry!  Although they would be routed so easily...unless all Commissars had AoD...nah that's probably too much...

I think I spoke before about my future hopes for IG infantry kits.  Boxes of 10 guardsmen (a Cadian and Catachan version) armed with either lasguns or shotguns and with all the parts to make a Sgt, a vox caster, and 1 of each kind of Special Weapon.  And to be fully compatible with their respective Command Squad box.  That single box would allow you to make an infantry squad, a conscript squad, a special weapon squad or a vet squad.  Four unit types in one.  Can't get much better than that.  Bonus points if the Catachan Shotguns are the exactly same type as the one carried by Colonel Iron Hand.  That cool looking magazine loaded auto shotgun.

And cheaper camo netting for vehicles sounds OK to me!

EDIT: 2000 posts...the count down to being a Hero begins...

[faitherun (Fay-ith-er-run)]

Ok, thoughts on orbital bombardment. It needs to be able to do damage without being op. That balance is really hard. I think the bombardment should be declared and then tested to see if it fires. So at the start of the game, you pick a point on the map. It can be anywhere, and test to bombard that spot. Then you roll a d6. On a 4+ it activates now. If not, you roll again next turn, on a 3+.  Next turn on a 2+, and then auto hits if it still hasn't come in.

Perhaps as a str 9 Ap 3 large blast (3) barrage shot.

100pts option?

[Spectral Arbor]

For an extra 25 points, you could have a Bassie dropping shells every turn.

For 80 points less, you could have a Master of Ordnance dropping an admittedly inaccurate attack every turn your CCS sits still. And you can give yourself an ignores cover order.

I'd say a Bassie is a bit overpriced though. They used to be 100 points without Indirect Fire, and a 25 point upgrade to make them indirect. Quite frankly, 100 points with indirect would get them on the table again, because they'd become competitive with Basic Russes... that also don't see much table time unless you're an old guy with sponsonless Russes.

I'm also one of those, "I don't like even more pre-game beslubbering around than there already is," types. Especially since there's no way to balance it, that isn't to some degree random...

1: Roll a d6 for each enemy unit before the game. On a 6, place an Ordnance Marker over the effected unit and resolve a S:X AP:Y attack.
-> Penalizes MSU, with softer targets more than Elite units with better Armour Saves / Cover Saves.

2: Resolve d3 Ordnance Barrage attacks with S:X AP:Y after deployment but before scout moves.
-> Crazy overpowered at 500 points, Pretty Meh at 2000 points.

3: For every 500 points played, resolve one Ordnance Barrage attack with S:X AP:Y after deployment but before scout moves.
-> Still penalizes MSU more than Elite infantry. You can snipe the most valuable units you can damage before the game even begins. At least Seizing the Initiative allows "Player 2" a chance to not get beat on before he has a chance to act.

4: Why would long range artillery stop shelling as the Guardsmen are advancing? No, really, they wouldn't stop shelling, and it wouldn't be fair to keep shelling the whole game with no recourse unless it was a paid upgrade, like an Air Strike or Long Ranged Artillery... but then why don't other races do that too? They surely have the technology.

[Calamity]

The more I think about it the more I think that the pre game bombardment idea isn't going to work.  It would be too much of a pain for the other player(s) to deal with, and it raises questions of why other factions don't have it.  They have artillery and aircraft too.  If it can be made to work then I'm game but I really doubt that it can.

A price drop for Bassies sounds good.  Right now they're being out shinned by both Wyverns and Manticores and since they're an old school mainstay that ain't right.

Soon I'd like to make some sample army lists with these new rules to try and test them out.  In a rush to improve things it can be easy to go overboard.

Also, how did that smaller conscript squad idea sound?

[Spectral Arbor]

Attractive to the point that it might diminish someone's desire to take regular Infantry squads. Something about Scripts is that they need a Character with decent Leadership attached to them, to get them to hang around. They need to provide cover for Multiple turns, ideally, so smaller squads aren't that interesting to myself unless I took a Lord Commie to boost multiple units.

A big squad is a decent tarpit, something else that's handy with so many vehicles.

An overall change allowing more access to HQ's would be good. They're all pretty cheap compared to other armies, and the benefits are Important to spread around. I don't know any other army I'd rather spend points on HQ in.

[Calamity]

Attractive to the point that it might diminish someone's desire to take regular Infantry squads. Something about Scripts is that they need a Character with decent Leadership attached to them, to get them to hang around. They need to provide cover for Multiple turns, ideally, so smaller squads aren't that interesting to myself unless I took a Lord Commie to boost multiple units.

So you think that they should remain a 20 model minimum sized squad?  I'm concerned about them overshadowing regular infantry too, but then again regular infantry have better stats and access to fancier equipment.  And they can look after themselves without the need for a babysitting character. 

An overall change allowing more access to HQ's would be good. They're all pretty cheap compared to other armies, and the benefits are Important to spread around. I don't know any other army I'd rather spend points on HQ in.

I do think that they should allow armies to take up to 3 HQ choices...but here in the case of the IG how might me justify it?  Bare in mind that many of our HQ units don't even take up FOC slots.

Also I just remembered to dig up this old thread.  I think we need to once again rethink Rough Riders. 

[Gunner_Sabot_Tank]

If you wanna give them more HQs, why not just use something like what SW have? Let them take multiple HQs per HQ slot.

[Calamity]

If you wanna give them more HQs, why not just use something like what SW have? Let them take multiple HQs per HQ slot.

They can do that?  That sounds OK to me!

EDIT:

I have some proposals for Rough Riders.  Rough Riders are now in Platoon Sized Squadrons (with individual squads called Troops).  A Squadron consists of 1-5 Rough Rider troops and 1 Command Troop (although we might need to change that).  Rider troops consist of a Troop Master (sgt) and four riders, whilst the Command Troop consists of a Squadron Commander and four riders.  Here's their stats and equipment:

 

  Rough Rider: WS:3 BS:3 S:3 T:4 W:2 I:3 A:2 LD:7
       Ride Master: WS:3 BS:3 S:3 T:4 W:2 I:3 A:3 LD:8
Squadron Commander: WS:4 BS:4 S:3 T:4 W:3 I:3 A:3 LD:8

Unit Type: Calvary (the Ride Master and SC are also characters)

Wargear: Flak Armor, Lasgun (the SC has a laspistol instead), close combat weapon, frag + krak grenades.

Special Rules: Feel No Pain (6+), Augmented Mounts (Re-roll failed difficult terrain tests, Hammer of Wrath at Strength 4).  All Troops except the Command troop have the Combined Squad rule.

If you're wondering what's up with the stats, in that thread we decided that it would be better if rough riders had augmented mind linked cyborg horses.

And they could have doctrines too, like:

Cataphracts: All squads within the squadron replace their flak armor with carapace armor (+10pts per squad)
Lancers: All Rough Riders replace their close combat weapons with power lances (+10pts per squad)

and I'm sure we can create some more.

[Calamity]

Sorry to double post but I just had this idea and I had to share it.  It's another suggestion to improve Scions by incorporating some of their own Codex stuff into the main list.  It's called the Progenium Trained rule:

Progenium Trained: If all models in the unit have this special rule, then they gain an additional perk when issued an order via the Voice Of Command special rule.  The perks and which Order they correspond to are as follows:

First Rank, Fire!  Second Rank, Fire!, Smite At Will!, Suppressing Fire, Fire On My Target: The unit has the Twin-linked special rule.

Move! Move! Move!, Forwards, For The Emperor!: The unit has the Fleet special rule.

Take Aim!, Bring It Down: All hot-shot lasguns in the unit have the Sniper special rule.

Commissars (both kinds), Tempestus Scion squads and Tempestus Scion Command Squads have this special rule.  It does make them function better than regular IG which is as it should be.  I hope it's not too messy or complicated though?  Also, would giving them the Sniper rule steal the thunder of Ratlings?  The little ones will have a far longer range with their rifles than hot shots...and they don't need an officer to tell them to do it.  They can just do it.  So it's all alright right?

This rule, combined with the addition of the Scouts rule, would finally make Scions the best they can be in my opinion.