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EldarOnline => Eldar => Topic started by: Lord Ulthanash on June 30, 2012, 05:08:50 PM
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I figured people would want to discuss this (I know that I certainly do). For anyone who hasn't seen it yet, here's the link to our errata/FAQ for 6th edition:
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2420312a_Eldar_6th_Ed_V1.pdf (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2420312a_Eldar_6th_Ed_V1.pdf)
So... from browsing so far, what do/don't you like? How do you think things will be affected, generally? Obviously we'll get better answers when we get actual games in with the new rules (right now all of this is from several sessions of browsing/skimming through the rulebook).
I'm not quite sure how I feel about the new psychic power system - I'll have to wait and see and actually use it before I pronounce judgment though.
I really like the vehicle rules (regarding hull points and such), but mech lists may take a beating because of it (I personally think that's a good thing). I also love overwatch shots in some regards (guardians are a lot more viable, in my view) but also think it seriously screwed us in some regards. Harlequins/Banshees aren't too sturdy, and even a couple of casualties before combat can cripple the unit.
I'll post more of my thoughts after I've really read through it, those were just the initial things that came to mind. As always, let's stick to forum rules and not post any actual rules here (I know that it's all new and exciting and people might forget/overstep boundaries - I almost did a couple of times).
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[gmod]Advanced warning - no wish listing. Discuss the rules as they are and not how you'd like then to be. No complaints about having an older codex (::cough:: Tau). You've got a thread already for wish listing so use it if you feel so forced to. Proper rules questions should be taken to the Rules Board please. [/gmod]
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Jetbikes have gotten huge boosts in my opinion. The toughness bonus is permanent, and the jink and hammer of wrath special rules add close combat punch and general defense. I'm tempted to take more jetbikes (particularly shining spears) in my future lists.
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My first couple of thought:
- Swooping Hawks are relatively useful again as Haywire is godly now.
- Mech has been weakened severely overall, Eldar is no exception. Shooty Dire Avengers will do reasonably alright (but they can't hide in a Wave Serpent too safely as now Stunned affects you even if you disembark next turn) but stuff like Banshees have taken a massive hit.
- The new powers are tolerable and even a few decent ones in there but I think the majority of Eldar players are going to just stick with the codex powers as they are more consistent.
- Shining Spears are harder to shoot down! Jink + Skilled Rider = awesome.
- Witchblades have been pooooowerrrrrrreddd d dooooowwwwwwwn against vehicles. Not useless by any stretch but definitely not amazing vs AV.
- On the flipside, Seer Council members with Destructor will be absolutely brutal to charge against. Very nice.
- Pathfinders got a nice boost with the new Sniper rules! Interesting....
- Our Jetbikes are pretty mindblowing right now. I'm still trying to wrap my head around whether they are now "awesome" or "totally awesome". Hammer of Wrath will mean lots more targets of opportunity for charging with bike units, especially if you keep Doom in the army.
Just a few thoughts for now, going to keep studying the book.
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I am slightly curious as to what Swooping Hawks with Intercept will do against Hovering Flyers.... ;D
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Jink, Skilled Rider, Hammer of Wrath, laser lances, a possible maximum movement range of 36" .... Shining Spears are definitely worth their points now, in my view. Considering my unnatural love for the unit, I don't think I'll be writing any lists without them now.
Completely forgot about Seer Councils and destructor.... even 2 destructor 'locks can put out some serious damage with overwatch. I agree that witchblades have taken a hit a bit, but it doesn't bother me too much. How many people were really using them as a dedicated anti-tank unit (except for jetbike councils - those were terrifying sights to behold).
I may be wrong about this, but from my skimming it seemed to me that a vehicle will be able to fire two weapons at a certain speed (as opposed to one main weapon and one defensive weapon). To me, that greatly increases the falcon's usefulness as a gunboat (providing I understood that correctly). Pulse laser + starcannon/scatter laser? Goodbye unit of terminators (providing there's no cover).
I heard someone say that holo-fields got nerfed, but I can't find any evidence of this. If so, can someone point me to a page in the rulebook that explains this?
What makes haywire godly?
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[mod]On the topic of reminders, please don't ask questions about what the new rules do or write out what any of the new rules do. It's very tempting when a new edition is released, but it's against the forum rules to describe rules in detail, so please don't.[/mod]
Mechanised Eldar have been somewhat weakened by sixth edition, based on the information I have at my disposal. In my view, I think that this is good, as it should hopefully encourage more diversity in Eldar list design than has been the case throughout the latter stages of fifth edition. The DAVU spam mechanised list, in particular, is now very poor, owing to the new rules regarding capturing objectives, so thankfully that bland unit should disappear from Eldar forces very quickly.
It would seem that Eldar assault units have taken a further hit though, which is a bit of a shame, and some elements of the FAQ raises a number of questions through what it doesn't answer, the issue of Spirit Stones and a Farseer's mastery level being the most obvious one which I've seen being discussed.
In summary, it's pretty much like any other edition in the sense that some units have suffered, while others have been improved, but it does appear to encourage more diverse list making for the Eldar at this early stage. It should be quite exciting :).
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J
What makes haywire godly?
You'll have to find out by reading the rulebook. If I understand correctly, even glances will eat up hull points. So a squad of Hawks can chew up even the strongest of AV. Plus, it's there for all to see in the rulebook
I would still prefer another unit for tank hunting though.
[mod]Edited, so as not to give rules away in line with my comment above - Iris.[/mod]
EDIT: long story short - Haywire grenades glance easily - glances can destroy vehicles easy - Hawks can chew up LRs with ease.
[mod]Changed one bit that was still too specific, the rest is okay - Iris.[/mod]
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sorry, can't use destructors with overwatch. overwatch follows the same rules as snap shots and snap shots have restrictions on what kind of weapons can be used, see page 13.
speaking of haywires, you can also now have a single model in a unit equiped with grenades throw that grenade as a shooting action. perfect way to knock off that last hull point of a vehicle with a haywire grenade.
This edition is very shooty friendly (especially rapid fire weapons) and heavy vehicles with good armor also benefit. Sadly lighter vehicles that can be glanced by smaller weapons will go down faster (poor orks lol).
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I've been looking through rules and working out what affects what.
Troops.
Guardians in 20 man squads are now viable again. Your still going to want a scatter laser in there. In smaller than 10 mans your risking them i think as transports are now a lot weaker. Conceal warlocks are now pretty good as well since unit size make the upgrade to a warlock cost under 2 points a model for a constant 5++ cover save. Pretty much a bargain.
Dire avengers need an FAQ. Bladestorm with it's current wording works for the turn... so you can bladestorm twice in a turn. Once in the shooting phase and again in overwatch... that's a lot of firepower when under guide, or even better foreboding and prescience (divination p420 primis and 1). You could be seeing 64 shots from a 10 man unit in a turn. slightly less than a 20 man guardian unit under ideal conditions but the extra range of the avengers makes the tactic more flexible.
Guardian jetbikes. Someone needs to confirm this one for me. But turbo boost happens in the shooting phase now... Does that mean the total distance they can travel is just under 50"..... If so this unit in 3 man squads just became the new objective grabbing unit for the eldar. You'll be wanting to keep them safe and out of LOS till turn 6 then objective grab like a retard. It's also one of the cheapest objective grabber in the eldar list that can work at speed without any mech backup.
Rangers and pathfinders for me have always been weak options i don't think this rule set changes that, While they have great durability, the killing potential for the unit is limited for the points cost.
Warwalkers with scatter lasers are now a defensive unit. Been able to move and shoot like always, and have a cover save has not changed however the unit can now shoot in overwatch against an assaulting unit. Thats a lot of High st firepower to bring to bear on a would be assaulter. Intermingled with a defensive troop block warwalkers should now be dancing with the troops. Moving forward to help take an assault, and overwatching as appropriate. The EML and BL are still the weakest options for warwalkers. Scatters and shurican cannons been the top tier guns. Scatter just winning out on volume and range.
Vibrocannons are back in until they get an faq. The line you draw can hit a flyer atm, and anything else in the path, This means when spammed there more effective against vehicles then a fireprism, falcon, or wraithlord. The new rules also ensure the unit will not die to a single high st blast, Since you can have 4 T7 wounds per gun with a decent save, cover saves, and invulnerables if you take the correct terrain assets.
Farseers got messed up a little, you still have to buy powers from codex eldar to be able to replace them with random powers..... Not ideal. However replacing guide for divination. Rolling then picking the primis power if you get a crap roll is an option. Effectively you replace guide with a better version of guide for free. The other option of replacing both powers is a little contested as you could end up with a power that is useless. a roll of a 2, 4, 5, or 6 would be a loss over straight guide and doom.
Elrad suffers from the above problem But he must replace all of his powers if he wants to use divination... basically it's not worth doing.
Fire dragons - tank hunters is now the single best anti tank skill to have. With Firedragons it adds up to a lot of vehicle hurt. I can't imagine any vehicle lasting 1 round with a squad on it's heels. Flyer hunting is probably still better off left to multishot ranged units like warwalkers, venoms, and serpents tho.
Fire prisms... they can't hurt flyers, And the fact it's an overpointed tank based on it's previous durability make this one redundant now. It's too easy to scatter off target, And be glanced to death where holofields will give you no bonuses. Basically it's not worth using until a new codex hits. Same goes for the falcon. Wave serpents and troops can do in shooting what these tanks are supposed to do, But at least a wave serpent can never be glanced on 2's in it's front arc. (Unless you count haywire blasters lol). Heavy support is all about durability now and falcon chassis are not going to offer that for a few months.
Hmm it's getting late I'll have a think about more units as i work out lists in my head and roll dice on the table against imaginary troops....
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sorry, can't use destructors with overwatch. overwatch follows the same rules as snap shots and snap shots have restrictions on what kind of weapons can be used, see page 13.
Then you need to read the thickly bolded print near the bottom right hand side of page 52 :). Flamers and Templates of any type are subject to the Wall of Death rule, which, indeed, will cook upstart assaulters silly ;)
[gmod]If you look through the thread you will notice that someone else made an attempt to answer the question of why Haywires are godly, and their post got edited because of that. Maybe it is an indication that answering it is against the rules.[/gmod]
Edit#2: @ Irisado: Actually it does answer the question of Spirit Stones on Farseers - pg 66 under the heading "Establishing Mastery Levels", middle of the second paragraph that begins, "In older codexes...". Short version: ML2
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Universal changes to Fleet, Vehicle Movement and Eldar Jetbikes make our army faster on the whole.
Overwatch makes our charges less reliable.
New USR's for Jetbikes make Shining Spears a reliable line-breaker instead of just monster hunters.
The changes to MC's make Wraithlords less of a must-have.
Changes to scoring make Transports less attractive for everyone.
Warlord Traits (all of them, really) make Autarchs more useful.
Changes to Vehicle Squadrons make Vypers less useless.
Changes to how Blast-vs-Armour works makes Fire Prisims good tank hunters again.
And, of course, a full Swooping Hawk unit is now practically gaurenteed to kill a tank, regardless of how strong, per turn.
I can see the changes to Psykers being very interesting when we get brought up to date, but as it stands they aren't particularly attractive... What you get is too unreliable for an army which really requires you have a specific power for a specific situation.
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ah, my bad about the overwatch part. Good to see they'll still be useful.
Why are people saying MC's are less useful in this edition? I don't see any significant differences (at least the normal MC's, flying ones got a ton of changes). They seem to have retained most of their traits, or is it just that they arn't needed as much to take out vehicles?
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The big problem will be CC dreadnoughts, as most of our units will be completely useless against them.
Small units size (compared to horde) may hamper our C with regards to Challanges.
Banshee's are now only good against power armour. The executioner... since it is a power axe does it count as I1 or does the banshee mask over rule?
Deny the witch.... means every one can nulify psykers...
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The volume of +S weapons, the ability to use grenades, combined with how common Krak Grenades are, make Wraithlords far more vulnerable to being pulled down in combat against Infantry. The total loss of the 2D6 armour penetration makes MC's less reliable against vehicles, and half of the Smash ability is wasted because of the Wraithlords inherent Strength characteristic.
This is before the changes to Vehicle Damage. Now, a Wraithlord is unlikely to glance a tank to death in a single turn, let alone destroy it. Plus, you know, Tanks are faster, so it'll be lucky to catch the darned thing.
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I played a mirror match today of Ulthwe vs Iyanden under 6th.
Howling Banshees and Harlequins aren't realistically line breaker style assaulters now. They seem to be more of a sweep up style assault. The Avatar feels beefier from the ability to challenge. Wraithlords can as well, and their ability to precise strike can take down a stray power fist before it gets a chance to hit.
The new psychic powers are awesome. I used Eldrad in my list and thanks to the fire at closest rule I was able to pop my opponent's farseer very early. My psychic dominance after that was fearsome. I splatted a unit of warp spiders (psychic shriek is like an amped up mindwar), Forced Wraithguard to do no more than move (hallucination), used foreboding to force a unit of dire avengers to reroll successful saves (including Asurmen), and used Forewarning or whatever it is to dish out a 4++ wherever I wanted, which made the Wraithlord a bit hefty to deal with. Farseers are more like second edition where the powers you grab mean you'll be redefining them each game and how they support your forces. The extra ranges can allow the farseer to help turn the tide of battle in multiple ways compared to the current, very static, powers. Also, take warlocks whenever you can. The bonus to DTW is worth it.
Our tanks are still a solid option, but vehicles in general won't be as tough as they were. This does, however, mean we can more reliably kill vehicles just by glancing which helped improve the dependability of a unit like Wraithguard.
Bikes are very interesting to use now and you can take them and safely explore with things like embolden over the previous prerequisite conceal thanks to the jink save.
The Eldar army will struggle against air units. Currently we have no skyfire outside of fortifications or allies.
Leading from the back is not how the game goes realistically. You'll want to keep characters in the middle of a squad. If you keep them at the back your opponent will deep strike behind you and splat them.
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Still waiting for my rulebook. Just one more day lol! Anyway, just wanted to ask a few questions based on what I am hearing....
1) Do you think we will be seeing more full units slogging across the field?
2) Would Dire Avengers on Overwatch+Bladestorm really give DAs that many shots?!?!
3) Since jetbikes seem to be better off these days... when do you think we'll get new models? ;) jk
4) If Banshees are only good for power armor now what would be recommended for the heavy stuff?
5) Are we really going to become more of a shooty army than we already are? And with our low ranges on most.... everything in a squad....
I guess that was all of them lol.
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Holo-fields nerf: well it doesn't matter what kind of result you got. You still need to read the rulebook to find out what happens.
We are back to being the number one psychic force. And why is that you say? The major nerf of the psychic hood. Not to mention that now not even an inv save will save you from perils and against our farseers any one who wants to cast a psychic power has about 40% chance of taking a wound instead.
Haywire grenades You'll need to read the rulebook to see how they work.
Snap-shot: Oh how I love this. All our multy shot weapons will be able to shoot, and even with the reduced BS a shot or two will go off.
[mod]Please don't describe the rules in detail, it's against the forum rules. Post edited accordingly - Iris.[/mod]
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This is how I see things after reading the rule book, this is all just theory from reading the rules I’m not going to comment on vehicles as I’d like to test them out in play first.
Avatar – I think this guy will do okay
Pro: Fear, it’s in writing he ignores flamestorm cannons, smash attack, Hammer of Wrath, challenges?, Warlord trait
Con: Random charge range (Like scorpions this will generally help more than hinder I just don’t like randomness)
Farseers
Pros: Best psychic defence in game, improves Deny the Witch to squads they are in, Warlord trait. I’ll be running 2 Farseers (RoWarding still stacks and there’s no range nerf) one using codex powers the other Divination. Doom + Misfortune = big lols!
Cons: Witchblade nerf
Autarch
Pros: Warlord trait, Hammer of Wrath if taking wings/WJG/JB, Precision shot
Cons: Can’t think of much.
Warlocks
Pro: Bonus to Deny the Witch
Con: Witchblade nerf
Scorpions
Pros: … can throw plasma grenades?
Cons: Overwatch, Random charge range (admittedly their charge range has the potential to be a lot higher, it’s not like the fleet nerf but anything random is bad IMO) Disordered charge, Cover generally lower, Wound allocation (think shooting casualties when advancing), Challenges mean Claw Exarchs may die before being able to attack or be useless.
Fire Dragons
Pro: Fusion guns still own
Con: Melta bombs are unwieldy – this hurts for when you’re assaulted by dreadnaughts
Wraithguard
Pro: Fearless is buffed, Overwatch
Con:
Banshees
Pro: Challenges (Exarchs go Sergeant head hunting) CC wound allocation may prevent retaliatory attacks?
Cons: Overwatch, fleet nerf, random charge range, disordered charge, power weapon nerf, cover generally lower, shooting wound allocation
Harlequins
Pros: Rending AP still good, CC wound allocation may prevent retaliatory attacks? Shadowseer improves Deny the Witch
cons: VoT nerf, Overwatch, fleet nerf, random charge range, disordered charge, power weapon nerf (troupe master), cover generally lower, shooting wound allocation
Avengers
Pro: Overwatch, Shooting wound allocation (keeping assault units out of range) cover saves generally lower means more killy vs orks etc
cons: (if you’re one to use them as an assault unit add in all the cons banshee’s have)
Rangers
Pro: Precision shot, overwatch, cover saves generally lower means more killy
con: Nothing?
Guardian
Pro: Squads w/ a warlock have improved Deny the Witch, overwatch, Cover saves generally lower, heavy weapons able to damage vehicles when glances used to be kinda useless
Con: Lower cover saves for yourself?
I don’t use Storm Guardians so got no real comments
GJB
Pro: Jink, Hammer of Wrath, wanna race? Seeya in 48”! Shuriken cannons can destroy vehicles, Warlock improves Deny the Witch
Con: I don’t play Saim Hann I don’t have enough jetbikes! witchblade nerf, Random Assault movement (generally will be higher but I don’t like random)
Shining Spears (I think these guys get the most buffs)
Pro: Jink, Hammer of Wrath, ludicrous speed, Skilled Rider
Con: power weapon nerf
Warp Spiders
Pro: Hammer of wrath, Deep Striking is safer, vehicle shredders, overwatch
Con: power weapon nerf (I’m clutching for something)
Swooping Hawks
Pro: Hammer of wrath, Deep Strike is safer, can throw various grenades, shreds vehicles with haywire, overwatch
con: fleet nerf, power weapon nerf (this is clutching more than with the spiders, but I do fleet with my hawks often)
Shadow Spectres
Pro: overwatch, cover generally lower, may be able to rip off hull points well?
con: Random Assault movement (generally will be higher but I don’t like random)
Support weapons: I skipped these rules I don’t like artillery
Reapers: move and snap shot, overwatch, cover is generally lower
con: Can’t overwatch the tempest launcher
Wraithlord
Pro: Easier to gain cover, Fear, Smash, Hammer of wrath, Overwatch/Wall of Death
Cons: Krak grenades/melta bombs
Did I miss anything? Overall I'm not liking close combat for my Eldar (my Wych Cult is crying on the shelf) however I think shooting is where it's at and that's how I'll be rewriting my lists.
[mod]Removed some rule references which were too specific - Iris.[/mod]
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2) Would Dire Avengers on Overwatch+Bladestorm really give DAs that many shots?!?!
yeah not sure how this would work as well, the idea is they unload everything in the clip and need the next shooting phase to reload.
Farseers
Pros: Best psychic defence in game, improves Deny the Witch to squads they are in, Warlord trait. I’ll be running 2 Farseers (RoWarding still stacks and there’s no range nerf) one using codex powers the other Divination. Doom + Misfortune = big lols!
I thought the new psyker abilities were random.
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I read the book last night and got one game in with my 5th edition IG list vs. Dark Eldar and watched several other games as well. (I shot him off the table)
My first thoughts for my Eldar army is that I am going to wait for the codex to come out before deciding much of anything for the long haul.
Hull points are brutal for vehicle surviability. The Falcon went from being one of, if not the toughest tanks in the game to destroy. To being the same or under some other choices. 3 glancing/Pen hits of any kind and you are dead (only 2 if it is back to back immobilized). With the changes to blasts doing full dmage, easier to hit vehicles in cc, throwing a greande, lesser cover etc. it means vehicles in general are easier to kill. Any type of weapon that can mass glance will be a viable way of "stripping" hull points away. Anything with tank hunters got a serious boost in power.
Firepower is king and placement of models is key. I melted away units and key modeld at every opportunity. The wound pool is sort of wonky and cumbersome on how it is used. We have precision fire for characters (Autarch w/ reaper / Maugan Ra etc.) that can really take advantage of this along with Pathfinders etc (sniper). You will be picking out key models all over the place when you add guide into the mix.
Vibro Cannons are very usefull now. Change to how artillery works and is targeted. They are much more resilient to shooting in general being nearly as tough as a wraithlord...
Psychic powers are ace. Had a blast with those. Eldrad should just keep his and have your other Seer swap powers. Force multiplication is going to rule this edition and buffs are hard / impossible to stop compared to other spells. Pro tip - you have to purchase powers to swap for new. If you are only buying a few, buy the cheapest ones since you are ditching them anyways. I'm sure this will change in the new book to be just "pick x powers" instead of buying them and raising cost of Farseer most likely. We have the best psychic defense overall.
Bikes got real good in general. Faced two units of Reavers yesterday. Pretty sure our bikes will get further options in new book.
Squadron change may make them fairly viable again. No more immobilized is destroyed and all of the enemy fire keeps getting applied to closest model until it is destoryed before going to your next one. If you can get a good coversave re-rolled on the front model, you can potentially soak some damage. Russ sqaudrons like this are sick. Our squadrons are lightly armoured so it will be tricky.
Good thing our star cannons don't get hot as other plasma weapons can overheat on vehicles and even potentially take hull points away. I almost fried my executioner that way.
Just some initial thoughts. I will be testing some lists this week.
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Something no one's mentioned yet is the potential of Star Engines+Flat Out+Cruising Speed = 42" in a turn. I'm not sure if my interpretation is correct, but I'm working on the basis that as the bonus from Star Engines (an upgrade you have to pay for) is less than the movement for Fast Skimmers going Flat Out (an inherent rule you get for free), it would make no sense for it to be an either/or kinda thing; therefore, it would appear that the extra movement stacks.
I'll also support the assertion that Holofields are not worth the cost these days. I had 3 vehicles with them in a game last night & only got to use them once; the rest of the damage was down to multiple glances stripping Hull Points. (That said, I was playing Necrons who specialise in glancing vice penetrating.)
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Something no one's mentioned yet is the potential of Star Engines+Flat Out+Cruising Speed = 42" in a turn. I'm not sure if my interpretation is correct, but I'm working on the basis that as the bonus from Star Engines (an upgrade you have to pay for) is less than the movement for Fast Skimmers going Flat Out (an inherent rule you get for free), it would make no sense for it to be an either/or kinda thing; therefore, it would appear that the extra movement stacks.
I'd have to check. Problem comes down to the tank is mega vulnerable to assult now and mega hard to deliver CC units to target intact compared to 5th edition. So far, I'm looking at a mostly foot / bike list till we get our new book.
I'll also support the assertion that Holofields are not worth the cost these days. I had 3 vehicles with them in a game last night & only got to use them once; the rest of the damage was down to multiple glances stripping Hull Points. (That said, I was playing Necrons who specialise in glancing vice penetrating.)
Yeah, it is hard to justify. I'm toying wit the idea of using one set in a squadron with that being the lead vehicle. Keep a cover save on it w/ Fortune and make that unit last alot longer due to new squadron rules. Don't know if it is really worth it or even viable yet.
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[mod]I've edited a few posts this morning for giving out too much rules information. Please don't do this. If someone can understand a rule from reading your text then you're giving too much information way to comply with the forum rules. Note that I won't have access to a rulebook until later this month, so if I can understand the rules from any of your posts, you're giving too much away. Please consider this a friendly reminder, and take note :).[/mod]
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I have a question which i believe no one has touch based in. How do we shooty eldar armies are going to deal with cc termies and BA sanguanor? In my normal list i have a dedicated cc unit for killing termies and meq. But now my banshees are almost useless, which leaves harlies the only option left that can deal with them in cc, since rending still works but pw have ap 3. This then led me to think some eldar armies(maybe me), are going to be allied with DE, since they have some anti termi and meq options in cc.
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Lots of AP2 shooting. Volume of fire in general. Fire Dragons etc.
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No derp, but once there in cc its gg for us. You response doesnt answer the question, as i can see eldar no longer have any vialable cc anti meq units.
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Wraithlord or Avatar can deal with Sang guard/artificer armour. Hurts me too as Banshees are my favourite/most used aspect (aside from Dire Avengers but that's coz of the FOC). I'm just going to try pinning avengers and no other CC orientated units.
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Still characters like Yriel etc...
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Can only do so much since his only one char. Im opting to getting a dark eldar force, instead of getting standered gaurdians, ill use kalabite warrriers and for cc use incubis and a succubi, or the good old harlies can do the trick, but still they squishy.
Squishy vs tanky = u need luck
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I still haven't gotten the BRB...I'm 2.5 hours drive time to the nearest GW, so I ordered the Gamers Edition. Should expect to see it in the mail with a tracking number sometime tomorrow.
I played Eldar from 2007-2009 and lost the models (they were stolen) and knowing 6th and a new codex were around the corner I picked up a core of DA's, a council, banshees, Fire Prisms, and a Wraithlord 3 months ago. Knowing full well of the fundamental changes that were going to take place I didn't want to get too into the specialist units. Now I feel like I can splurge on others hearing about bikes, haywire, etc. War Walkers or Vibro Cannons seem like a good bet as well.
All in short, thanks for the early glimpse into the imminent changes.
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potential of Star Engines+Flat Out+Cruising Speed = 42" in a turn
Unfortunately not.
Star engines and flat out both prevent any other voluntary actions that turn. And as such you get to use 1 or the other. Since flat out is better you no longer can use star engines until we get an faq that directly alters this fact. Meaning a total movement of just over 29"
The same is unfortunately true for DE vehicles with aether-sails, the sails work in the movement phase but prevent any shooting, If you can't shoot you can't move flat out. So in both cases your speed is locked at just over 29" And we have 2 useless vehicle upgrades.
The next useless vehicle upgrade is the Holofields since without a roll on the damage table for glancing it will have very little effect all game.
vectored engines are almost as pointless as well since only a lucky penetrating roll will make the upgrade have any effect. You have more chance of been glanced to death which will circumvent the upgrade.
Spirit stones are also weaker, Glancing hits will not cause them to be any use, and the few times you take a penetrating hit it will be modified to a point where SS have little or no effect. A single penetrating shot only has a 1/6 chance of activating the stones, And when the stones are active you still cannot shoot at your full BS. Meaning all they allow you to do is move flat out. You may as well save the points.
By my estimation all fire prisms got 45 points cheaper, and all wave serpents got 10 points cheaper in this edition.
Wave serpents are still by far the most effective and durable tank for the eldar. The reduction of ST means the tank is always at an advantage over the more expensive battle tank variants, And the twin linked guns give improved shooting V/s anything that requires high numbers to hit. While your unlikely to place anything other than shooting units in a wave serpent, the range and mobility still gives a solid tactical boost in a lot of situations.
The best way to keep a Prism safe now is range, Using that range to stay out of range of the multiple shot guns will keep your tank trucking for a few turns at least. But be aware outflanking and deep striking shooting units will probably destroy the prism before it gets to retaliate.
DE got the harsher end of the stick by a fair margin, Even with the range reduction there wargear gives they still will find themselves in range of most shooting and glanced to death very very quickly.
Warp spiders for me have had a surprising boost in tactical effectiveness. Since eldar are now going to struggle to deal with a well dung in shooting army the spider fill a role that swooping hawks simply cannot match. The durability of the spiders, matched with the speed they move at, and the ST of the guns they carry mean these are going to be needed to take out Hydra's and basilisks on the board edge. Hawks could do it in assault but since they cannot assault when they arrive, and the fact the spiders are faster mean that spiders are far far more effective. They also have the added advantage of armour and been able to dive for cover when they appear after shooting first.
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potential of Star Engines+Flat Out+Cruising Speed = 42" in a turn
Unfortunately not.
Star engines and flat out both prevent any other voluntary actions that turn. And as such you get to use 1 or the other. Since flat out is better you no longer can use star engines until we get an faq that directly alters this fact. Meaning a total movement of just over 29"
The same is unfortunately true for DE vehicles with aether-sails, the sails work in the movement phase but prevent any shooting, If you can't shoot you can't move flat out. So in both cases your speed is locked at just over 29" And we have 2 useless vehicle upgrades.
Hmm... The errata sates and I am pretty sure I can type this as it is a free download from GW Please refer to page 3, and the second column of the FAQ.
= 42" win.
I'm inclined to agree with Nesbitt's other points though, I won't be taking any upgrades on my tanks. You make an interesting point about the spiders too, I think especially with reserves being faster and more reliable they might make a return to my army. If not then star engines on the wave serpents will be the way forward for dealing with far away artilery.
E
[mod]Being free makes no difference I'm afraid. Please just cite the reference, rather than quote the rule - Iris.[/mod]
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As long as a vehicle is allowed to move that turn and does not shoot
Yes you can use them, But if you use 1 you cannot use the other. Since both require you to be able to shoot, and both stop you been able to shoot.
So you can "move+star engines" OR "move+flat out", But you cannot "Move + star engines + flat out" Or "move + flat out + star engines."
The 2 rules cancel As you cannot forfeit your chance to shoot twice.
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As long as a vehicle is allowed to move that turn and does not shoot
Yes you can use them, But if you use 1 you cannot use the other. Since both require you to be able to shoot, and both stop you been able to shoot.
So you can "move+star engines" OR "move+flat out", But you cannot "Move + star engines + flat out" Or "move + flat out + star engines."
The 2 rules cancel.
I might have a little too much faith in GW but I'm pretty sure they would have put that in the FAQ. It is a little ambiguous but you are making a greater assumption that I am I think.
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In this instance RAW v/s RAI doesn't exist.
We have to take RAW as cannon as RAI using an outdated codex running on faq's means upgrades/weapons ect can be made ineffective. They have not removed star engines because they still work as intended, Unfortunately the new rule book gives a better option, Whilst moving the movement of tanks about a bit. We're not the only army affected, hence why i put up the DE example as well, Since in both cases upgrades are worse then the new rules. The codex rules still work, But not as well as they used to.
Another Great example is Warpspiders. Surprise assault has been in the codex without an faq for 3 editions of the rules now. However for 2 of those editions the upgrade was worthless as the rule book offered a better alternative for free.
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Most people are saying that the Banshee's took a hit, but I don't feel this is the case. The Power Weapon AP is the thing that people will have to get used to, which I think is a great change.
While now we don't have anything to crack Terminator armor straight away in close combat, but that just makes us have to use better battlefield tactics. I personally thought it was poor game play how people could just run down a squad of Terminators with a squad of Banshees. These are Terminators we are talking about here. Technically, the most bad a$$ things out there. Remember how a squad would be sent into a Space Hulk to clear it of Genestealers? They should be hard to kill because they are Space Marines wearing Tactical Dreadnaught Armour.
I am just saying to point it out. Banshees will still be excellent against everything with Power Armour or less. We just have to shoot at Terminators more, which to me seems a bit more realistic anyway. Now you have something to shoot your Prism Cannon at. Oh wait, I forgot, you guys tend to not take those.:P ;D
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It isn't just Terminators, it is anything with a 2+ save like IC's in the unit that is butchering you etc.
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It isn't just Terminators, it is anything with a 2+ save like IC's in the unit that is butchering you etc.
One way of avoiding that issue, of course, is to avoid engaging that unit, since independent characters cannot be everywhere at once.
I remain undecided about Howling Banshees at the moment. I think that while there appear to be a number of downsides on paper, they may be less of an issue in practice. I'll certainly still be trying them out in my initial sixth edition list, in order to see if my concerns are actually remotely valid.
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Most people are saying that the Banshee's took a hit, but I don't feel this is the case. The Power Weapon AP is the thing that people will have to get used to, which I think is a great change.
Your missing several fundamental changes to the way the army works that hits them harder than the AP3 nerf.
Firstly you can no longer assault from a wave serpent or falcon, EVER.
Secondly they can be shot at as they assault. Overwatch.
So you are pretty much limited to having them on the field for 1 full turn at the very least. Before they can do anything. Added to that there a high priority target, with low T and a low save. To further compound them they only have an 18" assault range, This means they will be shot, Probably at least twice by the unit there targeting. And probably by other units as well.
A single 20 man guardsman squad (easy picking in 5th ed), Will hail you with a volley of fire over 2 turns that will turn the banshees into an ineffective unit as they hit combat (if they make it). And you have to remember due to the 18" rule you will take 2 full turns of shooting in most cases, followed by the overwatch. You will need to be within 30" prior to your assault turn. leaving your unit at less than 18" away from the enemy. @<30" a unit can move 6" and shoot you with rapid fire, and still be out of assault range, You then close the gap 18", take a turn of rapid fire, then assault taking an overwatch. Even if played perfectly and you only manage to get shot at the one time, they can close to rapid fire range, unleash a hail of fire and still overwatch your ass.... It's loose loose.
Without a seer the unit is weak, With a seer the unit is more durable but expensive and ineffective against TEQ's. So the seer is better placed in shooting units where he can augment the shooting to deal with those threats faster.
If the guardsman have some ability ro-roll hits the odds are even more stacked against you.
If you can get them into combat at full unit Strength then they will do fine, But in order to do that you have to have units stacking with units, And units screening units. in order to do this you need models in abundance, Added to that if your using 20 guardians as a meat shield you may not hit combat yourself with the new rules for assaults and how you engage models since the guardians would be taking up most of the BTB spaces since they assaulted first to take the overwatch hits.
Either way banshees are unfortunately relegated below more durable units, More shooty units and more defensive units. making them almost redundant if your taking a competitive play list.
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Yeah, I will give them a try but am not super optomistic about how they will do based on the games I've seen so far.
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Im trying a eldar and dark eldar combo were, by replacing my 20 guardians i have kalabite warriers with blasters and 2 spinter rifles, hq being Succubus replacing yriel, and for elites ill have icubis, with demiknifes that are able to at least kill termies easier. Ill see how this work. This also opens options of having two 5 man squads of DAs running around in venom with. Splinter connon = lots of anti infantry. For heavy, i see wraithlords being a must now, 3, since they cant be glance/pen, so they act as anti-tank. Finally carry haywire anywhere were i can.
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I'll restate my initial impressions as the AP nerf isn't the only issue.
Banshees
Pro: Challenges (Exarchs go Sergeant head hunting) CC wound allocation may prevent retaliatory attacks?
Cons: Overwatch, fleet nerf, random charge range, disordered charge, power weapon nerf, cover generally lower, shooting wound allocation
Nesbit pointed out the other thing that's a major concern, how are you getting them into the battle?
Depending on the unit you assault, overwatch can be a massive hit. Take lootas for example, if you assault 10 of these guys who happen to roll max for their shooting and roll average will kill 5 banshees before assault, due to shooting wound allocation this may mean you're now out of charge range.
What I mean with fleet nerf is this under 5th your charge range on average was 15.5", now it is13" - Honestly I don't know how to calculate the re-roll for Fleet under 6th rules (so assuming you reroll both and hit 7 again, if someone can enlighten me please do) but I do believe you want to reroll 1,2,3 at all times as this gives you the best chance (66%) of rolling equal or higher.
I think Harlequins is where it'll be at, even with the VoT nerf.
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Personally I haven't taken banshees since ulthwe strike force as even when you could assult from transports you had to be sat in your wave serpent for a turn in front of what you wanted to charge anyway, giving the enemy unit time to move away, or time to shoot at your transport. Now you just deploy the unit and hide behind the transport for a turn, not a huge difference. We should also start to see people using other units like warp spiders to distract enemy units while your combat units make their way up the battle field.
GW are steadily moving away from forces that could deliver a unit or even a whole army untouched to the enemy's front door. No more rhino rush, no more charging from reserve by any means unless you are vanguard veterans. So now you have to use your own tactics and the army as a whole rather than units in isolation. The game isn't 5 terminators vs 10 banshees so it shouldn't be played that way.
Eldar cc is good on the counter charge and I think that is the way we are going to have to use it. We will have to rethink that against armies that can outshoot us like tau but then if you do make it into combat you will ruin them.
Don't forget thes rules work for you opponent too, you get a chance to overwatch his ork boys or his nid warriors, his grey knights don't get to charge from their rhino and if he/she wants to take a land raider with 5 terminators in it and spend a 1/3rd of his points on it you can be damn sure I'm either going to ignor it and keep my army as far away as possible or it is going to be the first thing to die.
I'm really interested to see how people cope with not being able to sit their troops in transports to claim objectives, it isn't something I have ever done so will be really nice to see people thinking ahead again in terms of getting troops down before the end of the game.
I think Harlequins is where it'll be at, even with the VoT nerf.
Nerf in some ways, not in others. Before if someone got inside you VoT range you were gone, this wasn't impossible to do by any means. Now at least you have that cover save no matter the range. Again I think this makes you use them as part of the whole army rather than a unit out on their own.
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I think Harlequins is where it'll be at, even with the VoT nerf.
Am i missing something here. VOT works as originally intended. It is not night fighting. You always have to roll and the Unit gains no benefit from rules such as night fighting because of it.
RAW.
Roll to spot, If you can't spot them you loose that units shooting.
You do not benefit from night fighting as this is not the night fighting USR, Nor does it confer the bonuses of night fighting to your unit.
You can in effect not spot them as the unit is assaulting... you have be be lucky for the roll to go that way but it can happen. Also night vision USR does not negate this roll.
I am missing something FAQ Page 2.
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pg 2 of the new FAQ. VoT gives Stealth and Shrouded. No more not being able to see them.
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I'll restate my initial impressions as the AP nerf isn't the only issue.
What I mean with fleet nerf is this under 5th your charge range on average was 15.5", now it is13" - Honestly I don't know how to calculate the re-roll for Fleet under 6th rules (so assuming you reroll both and hit 7 again, if someone can enlighten me please do) but I do believe you want to reroll 1,2,3 at all times as this gives you the best chance (66%) of rolling equal or higher.
Don't have time to calculate the exact percentages at the moment however Fleet did not get nerfed in ANY way. Fleet was made considerably stronger. See the rulebook to see how it works. I'd be very surprised to see units with fleet not managing a 9" charge range consistently although it would be interesting to calculate the exact precentages.
[mod]Edited for copyright - Iris.[/mod]
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Yes, fleet is good. It is the other stuff that is the issue.
Seer Council still wrecks infantry pretty well but takes a considerable nerf vs. vehivles (AV). I'm really not sure what my go to CC unit will be now.....shining spears look good with skilled rider due the jink improvement....
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Don't have time to calculate the exact percentages at the moment however Fleet did not get nerfed in ANY way. Fleet was made considerably stronger. The ability to re-roll 1 dice, 2 dice or no dice and keep the highest number if you wish makes Fleet exceptionally powerful. I'd be very surprised to see units with fleet not managing a 9" charge range consistently although it would be interesting to calculate the exact precentages.
You lost a guaranteed movement for open terrain.
And you lost the old fifth edition system.
Basically now the unit will always average 7. Since that is average for 2d6.
5+6 should be left on all rolls, re-roll anything lower. This will at least account for a 6" guaranteed charge.
2 low roll are a pain tho, 6" or less on 2d6 should be re-rolled unless it is enough, on both dice.
More than 7" should be left.
Every unit lost range because of the change.
7" was always guaranteed in 5th. now it's a nice average roll. Anything less than 7" your missing out.
before there was a 1/6 chance of going 12" 20% on the charge now that's reduced to a 1/36 chance 3%.
[mod]Edited for copyright (please remember that quoting fifth edition rules is as much against the forum rules as quoting sixth edition rules) - Iris[/mod]
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We can't theory craft based on 7" being the average roll on 2D6 if fleet gives you the ability to re-roll those dice giving you a higher chance of getting more than 7". I have no idea how to do that maths (awaits clever people). Secondly it is possible to get significantly further for units that did not have fleet prior to the change so it isn't true to say that every unit lost out. I think we might see scorpion units making a good return, with a better save and the ability to take move through cover they should work really well.
Yes random charge range will make people think twice about how they line up their charges but at least you will know the distance and know what your odds are of making it (roughly, lol). Again, it is going to make using units in isolation alot riskier and will reward those who set up attacks on multiple fronts.
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In the game I played in vs. DE and all the games I watched, there was only a single combat where the unit failed to get the charge range. More noticable, was there were far less units even in range to make the charge to begin with as they were being shot to death. lol
Divination power list is where it's at for Eldar. The default power is very good and none of them require more than 1 warp charge. I'm gonig to run a dual Seer list this week and see how it works.
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Yes random charge range will make people think twice about how they line up their charges but at least you will know the distance and know what your odds are of making it (roughly, lol). Again, it is going to make using units in isolation alot riskier and will reward those who set up attacks on multiple fronts.
I have a feeling it's going to do more than make people think twice about charging.
Armies are going to become very standoff-ish, becoming a game of big guns and glancing guns. With a meat shield.
Take this for example.
6 leman russ.
3 basilisk
and as many platoons of men with as many heavy weapon teams as possible to fill the points.
Aegis defence line.
The line is placed in a line in front of the troops. The leman russ protect the basilisk and stay at 4" apart.
Flyer wise the aegis line can take the quad gun, and the heavy weapons teams can take multishot weapons able to glance AV12.
Troop wise if you footslog at it the russes and basilisks are going to eat your face,
Shooting at it the troops have a 2++ cover save, and the tanks are spread enough to spread glancing hits. Penetratings are still problematic.
You cannot get close enough to assault, and if you did you would be assaulting through terrain and be overwatched.
You cannot deepstrike in the formation as it's too tightly pack for your unit to land.
The solution.... you play 3rd ed. And do exactly the same tactic. With no one willing to give up ground the game becomes a game of lasting out. With a last turn grab for objectives. neither tactical nor fun to play.
This is my only fear for this ruleset. As i cannot in my head come up with a logical counter tactic, without been dangerously overextended. Reliant on luck. Or using non eldar models like the aegis landing platform to increase my own chance of survival. All of which are option i would not be willing to take with eldar.
The only way to beat that is to sneak wins with guardian jetbikes objective grabbing 5th turn and cheating a victory.
There is some sadistic bastard guard player leaping with joy writing this list out as i speak....
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Damnit I lost what I just posted.
The mean of 1d6 is 3.5 thus your charge range could be considered 6" move, 3.5" fleet, 6" assault = 15.5"
Under the new system you will need to roll at least a 10 - substantially higher than the average of 2d6 (16.65% chance of being rolled) to be beneficial 6" move 10" assault = 16"
In open terrain you were guaranteed to go 13", now you are guaranteed 8"
Also as Nesbitt said, previously you had 1/6 chance of maximum assault range, now it's down to 1/36
This is great for units that don't have fleet as they just gained an average of 1" and it is a slap in the face to units that did have fleet.
Onto the witchblade I am really sore about this - my fluff bunny is crying. It's an iconic weapon that has been 3x str for some time. Look at the shuriken catapult, it is still reeling from the treatment Gav gave it in 3rd ed.
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100% agreed about Banshees dropping in quality - the single biggest issue is that you cannot deliver them to the enemy effectively anymore, it has very little to do with the AP of their weapons. And Nesbitt has it best, it's more ideal nowadays to have your Farseer boosting shooting anyways.
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Agreed, I do think our Farseers will become top dogs. I'll be looking to run codex + divination mostly, 2 Runes of Warding on the table, improving Deny the Witch to their squad (remember warlocks and the shadowseer do this as well). Good luck using your powers! I have high hopes for this.
I've started writing up several lists, I still have my 2 primary lists from 5th but they'll be hurting a little. I got it so in my head that *the word Iri bleeped out of my first post regarding vehicles :P) would be the death of mech that I went so far the other way that I didn't have much above strength 6.
I do wonder if guardian squads w/ Star cannons may make a resurgence. Geez they're expensive guns though.
I'm even excited to use rangers again.
So in short I'll be trying out 2 farseers, lots of dakka, not many/no vehicles.
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I still think people are missing the point. When individual units get weaker (except terminators but good on them bring back 3+ on 2D6...) armies as a whole become more of the focus.
Use the terrain to your advantage, concentrate your forces and overpower a section of your opponents army or spread your faster army over the table to distract your opponent into splitting his up. Present too many options for chrages so that your opponent has to choose what to shoot at or sit back and pound him with fire. Yes you won't be able to out shoot static guard but that has always been the case, the point is they either have to wipe you out or move from their cover in order to claim objectives. The game isn't won when you type up your army list any more which is awesome.
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As long as a vehicle is allowed to move that turn and does not shoot
Yes you can use them, But if you use 1 you cannot use the other. Since both require you to be able to shoot, and both stop you been able to shoot.
So you can "move+star engines" OR "move+flat out", But you cannot "Move + star engines + flat out" Or "move + flat out + star engines."
The 2 rules cancel As you cannot forfeit your chance to shoot twice.
Looking at the FAQ for Star Engines again, I think they do stack with Flat Out. Star Engines need the vehicle to be capable of moving & not to have shot - or (dis)embark pax - that turn in order to use them. Flat out happens instead of shooting & Star Engines require you not to have shot, which you won't have done if you go Flat Out. The Star Engines aren't forfeiting shooting as such, they're something you can use if you haven't shot.
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Played a couple of games so far.
The biggest competitive change for Eldar is Troops that can rapid-fire.
Because Tau and DE are Battle brothers, there is really no reason not to take two Firewarrior/DE Warrior units in your army. They score, you can cast Prescience on them, They are much better than Guardians and on the whole better than Dire Avengers.
Round out your Eldar Troop requirements with Rangers and/or Jetbikes.
DE allow you to take a Flyer as well.
I reckon Eldrad with full Divination all the way. The chance of rolling Malediction power is too good not to pass up on, and by my reading his third power may be one he has already used. At the very least, you're guaranteed to have the option of double-prescience.
Vehicles will fall by the wayside...Fire Dragons in Serpents with dual Shuricannons perhaps, but the rest footslogging. Walkers, Wraithlords, and Reapers all got a boost.
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I reckon Eldrad with full Divination all the way.
Actually, I'm trying Eldrad with full Eldar powers along with a Jetbike Seer purchasing cheapest four powers and swapping them for Divination powers. The default power is awesome (better than guide) and all but one of them are good. None cost over 1 either...
Fire Dragons in Serpents with dual Shuricannons perhaps
I still think we will see some Brigtlances as there is going to still be AV14 on the table.
Because Tau and DE are Battle brothers, there is really no reason not to take two Firewarrior/DE Warrior units in your army
I'm honestly not looking forward to the weirdness that the allied rules are going to bring...lol
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Wraithlord
Pro: Easier to gain cover, Fear, Smash, Hammer of wrath, Overwatch/Wall of Death
Cons: Krak grenades/melta bombs
I'd like to address this little issue... How is Smash a 'Pro' for Wraithlords? Half of the ability is wasted right from the onset because of the Wraithlords S characteristic anyway, so you are sacrificing attacks for rerolls. Using Smash, even when including Hammer of Wrath (which won't benefit from Smash anyway) leaves you just barely able to glance a tank to death, and only if you roll like a champ. It's totally useless against anything but Vehicles, and even then NOT using is probably going to inflict more reliable damage. In short, Smash is practically useless on a Wraithlord. I can see it being great for, say, Broods of Carnifex, but for us it's a major hit over the last editions rules for MC's.
The Fleet issue is, to me, not even remotely concerning. We are faster than average with Fleet, and everyone has received a less reliable Charge. Even then, because of Fleet, we're still better at charging than other armies. I don't see what the issue is, regardless of what the math-hammer says. Eldar are now, on average, faster than non-Eldar. That's the way it should be, doesn't matter if we're slower on the whole, because so is everyone else.
I do worry about Banshees though. The AP of a Power Sword means that Terminators are no longer a viable target for the girls, particularly when combined with their lower volume of attacks compared to Scorpions. The concern i've heard about the Executioner isn't an issue, because it clearly falls under the Unusual Power Weapon category, so the rules for Power Axes are irrelivent. Still, their going to cut holes in regular Power Armoured foes, as long as they can survive the Overwatch.
I also don't feel that you really say Witchblades got a substantial nerf... Armour Bane means that your max AP value is still 15, with your average being 10. Because you alwas hit the rear armour in CC, you're going to be regularly glancing vehicles to death, which of course means you never have to worry about explosions.
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Eldar are now, on average, faster than non-Eldar.
No, they are faster than non fleet models.
I also don't feel that you really say Witchblades got a substantial nerf...
Are you serious? Autoglancing AV10 compared to now needing 7 on 2d6? I'd say that is a massive nerf if you compare the statistic of aoutomatic to roughly 50%. Overall, I'm ok with it but it doesn't change what it is.
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I see Eldar CC being used as counter attacks rather than the unit used offensively. In this roll Banshee's are still useful against assault Marines.
I also see more people taking more full units as the game is going to become a war of attrition.
Lachdonin - The problem with Armourbane is its randomness, especially against dreadnoughts when its taken against front armour now.
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Are you serious? Autoglancing AV10 compared to now needing 7 on 2d6? I'd say that is a massive nerf if you compare the statistic of aoutomatic to roughly 50%. Overall, I'm ok with it but it doesn't change what it is.
This is all a differance in oppinion on the use of massive. It's dramatic, maybe even substantial, but to me massive implies being nerfed into uselessness. Had they been religated to S5 PAP3 weapons, that would be a massive nerf. As it is, it's a change, but does nothing to diminish their potential. It just makes that potential less reliable.
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Looking at the FAQ for Star Engines again, I think they do stack with Flat Out. Star Engines need the vehicle to be capable of moving & not to have shot - or (dis)embark pax - that turn in order to use them. Flat out happens instead of shooting & Star Engines require you not to have shot, which you won't have done if you go Flat Out. The Star Engines aren't forfeiting shooting as such, they're something you can use if you haven't shot.
You can of course believe what you want.
However the fact still remain that in using 1 you can not shoot, and therefore can not give up your ability to shoot to use the other. Regardless of how you try and stack it 1 always overrides the other until you have a permissive FAQ stating you may use star engines in the turn when you move flat out.
Currently the FAQ stated nothing of the sort,
It states a vehicle that can move can use star engines.
if you look at the FAQ, you will see that a vehicle that can move can also shoot, albeit at a lower BS.
Therefore you still give up the ability to shoot in a turn where you are "crew shaken"
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I think Phoenix Lords got a hell of alot more powerful the 2 + save and eternal warrior being much more useful with them still getting save against power weapons and the lark. I think Maugan Ra got a massieve boost from this and his weapon kicks ass. Im pretty sure the executioner is an unusual power weapon as stated in the rule book not an power axe.
I think theres been a move away from vehicles and towards flyers. As flyers seem very strong now and I do not believe it will be long before they are more flyers available due to it being the "Summer" of Flyers and we still have 2 months of summer left.
I think big guardian squads footslogging could come back into play as with overwatch and reduction of cover saves they seem more useful.
Also seems that Dark Reapers might work there way back into Heavy support as they got a boost from cover being not as good and the vehicles especially falcons are alot weaker.
The strongest tank we have availale by far now is the Wave serpent due to the energy shields and the hull poins rules. I would not be suprised if in our next codex that Holo-Fields was changed to work like these do.
I think we might be seeing alot more choices from the fast attack section as Singing spears got some nice buffs and haywire grenades on the swooping hawks looks fantastic. Also If im right it is now possible to shoot with grenades making them useful the turn they land, and deepstriking was made safer.
It seems like a Saim-Hann army list could be very competitive this edition due to the positives from warlocks / Jetbikes / Jetseer council / Shinging spears.
I also feel that Hull points has kinda messed up War walkers sure you can get a fortuned save but as soon as you start to fail you only need 2 glance / pens to go through and its gone. With theyre low AV it just seems like they will die alot easier.
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I guess I just play differently as I still don't see the issues of the Banshee's even with the issues of transports being mentioned. For example, your transport lands, and you get out with the transport between you and the enemy. Then in the next turn, the transport flies away and you move forward, then assault. Isn't this how we had to do it back in 3rd or 4th edition?
(Granted that is an extremely simplified example, but you get the point)
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This is all a differance in oppinion on the use of massive. It's dramatic, maybe even substantial, but to me massive implies being nerfed into uselessness.
When you cut the effectiveness of something by half, that is at least substantial. That is the word you used.....how much of a drop is required to fit that wording?
I think Phoenix Lords got a hell of alot more powerful
Agreed. Maugna Ra is espcially nice as his shooting weapon interacts well with the new rule set.
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This is all a differance in oppinion on the use of massive. It's dramatic, maybe even substantial, but to me massive implies being nerfed into uselessness.
When you cut the effectiveness of something by half, that is at least substantial. That is the word you used.....how much of a drop is required to fit that wording?
And i acquiesced to the fact that it could be substantial. For me, at least, it won't be, because i think in the entirety of 5th edition is assaulted a Vehicle with Witchblades a grand total of 5 times. It's a trivial change which isn't going to impact my gaming. People who rely on Witchblades more often, however, are going to see a bigger impact, though i still suspect that its not going to be nearly as problematic as some are making it out to be.
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I actually had a unit brainwave earlier.
Seer council on bikes.
Farseer using the divination guide, and fortune.
Emb warlock
Enh warlock
8x Des warlock.
Firstly durability is not altered between 5th and 6th. Apart from instant death, But these are 1 wound models.
Secondly the unit is a lot faster.
and finally you should never need to assault.
8x destructor, with the new wound allocation system pretty much means any casualties will be on destructor's and not Enh/Emb. Added to that this is a whole new world of pain in the shooting department.
Someone correct me, does a re-roll to hit class as a re-roll to wound with templates, because of twin linking..... I'm not sure on that one.
And finally 11 wychblades even with the nerf work out damn nasty against vehicles with AV10 armour.
Oh and you can take 2 of these hoser units in 1750 points. And still have 300 points left for troops. lol
You also get a save against dangerous terrain.. with a re-roll
And the assault move to leap back behind cover to slow a unit that would assault next turn. Or to leap over to a tank and force it to tank shock next turn so it has to forfeit shooting and can't disembark a shooty unit in your face.
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still a little confused about switching psychic powers out, do you have to switch all of them or can you switch as many as you want. For instance If i buy guide, fortune and doom with a farseer and want to take divination spells can I just switch out guide or do I have to switch out all 3?
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still a little confused about switching psychic powers out, do you have to switch all of them or can you switch as many as you want. For instance If i buy guide, fortune and doom with a farseer and want to take divination spells can I just switch out guide or do I have to switch out all 3?
I am confused about this as well.
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still a little confused about switching psychic powers out, do you have to switch all of them or can you switch as many as you want. For instance If i buy guide, fortune and doom with a farseer and want to take divination spells can I just switch out guide or do I have to switch out all 3?
I am confused about this as well.
According to the Eldar FAQ you buy whatever powers you want, and swap whichever ones you want. So it is NOT all or nothing. Any time I run Eldrad I will be dropping E-storm to take my chances on one of the new powers. I can possibly see people paying for one extra power than usual on their Farseer and using one (a cheap one) to roll for a discipline power.
I got one game in tonight with a pretty standard 5th edition mech-dar list for me (2x prisms, banshees+farseer in serpent, DAs and Stormies both in serpents, DAVU falcon) and here are my initial findings:
1) Assaulting from Serpents is an even bigger hassle than before
2) Serpents are still pretty strong and still good for getting something into the enemy back lines quickly
3) Overwatch rules (at least against non-MC bugs and Orks)! I will likely now be making a list based on "overwatch bait"
4) Prisms got some versatility back with the new blast rules against armor
No ones lists tonight were really tweaked at all for 6th edition. We just wanted to relearn the basics with all the new wound allocation and CC rules. I have a few ideas floating around focusing on massed shooty foot units to abuse overwatch.
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You have to switch all of the powers. It IS all or nothing.
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Powers are *All or nothing*, otherwise it wouldn't say that Eldrad generates four new powers.
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I take 4 divination with a Seer. The default spell you can fall back to is excellent which gives you have decent odds of getting the one spell you really wanted. So, it is about 66% to get what you went after aqnd 100% guaranteed that you do not end up with the only dud for your Farseer.
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Wraithlord
Pro: Easier to gain cover, Fear, Smash, Hammer of wrath, Overwatch/Wall of Death
Cons: Krak grenades/melta bombs
I'd like to address this little issue... How is Smash a 'Pro' for Wraithlords? Half of the ability is wasted right from the onset because of the Wraithlords S characteristic anyway, so you are sacrificing attacks for rerolls. Using Smash, even when including Hammer of Wrath (which won't benefit from Smash anyway) leaves you just barely able to glance a tank to death, and only if you roll like a champ. It's totally useless against anything but Vehicles, and even then NOT using is probably going to inflict more reliable damage. In short, Smash is practically useless on a Wraithlord. I can see it being great for, say, Broods of Carnifex, but for us it's a major hit over the last editions rules for MC's.
The Fleet issue is, to me, not even remotely concerning. We are faster than average with Fleet, and everyone has received a less reliable Charge. Even then, because of Fleet, we're still better at charging than other armies. I don't see what the issue is, regardless of what the math-hammer says. Eldar are now, on average, faster than non-Eldar. That's the way it should be, doesn't matter if we're slower on the whole, because so is everyone else.
I do worry about Banshees though. The AP of a Power Sword means that Terminators are no longer a viable target for the girls, particularly when combined with their lower volume of attacks compared to Scorpions. The concern i've heard about the Executioner isn't an issue, because it clearly falls under the Unusual Power Weapon category, so the rules for Power Axes are irrelivent. Still, their going to cut holes in regular Power Armoured foes, as long as they can survive the Overwatch.
I also don't feel that you really say Witchblades got a substantial nerf... Armour Bane means that your max AP value is still 15, with your average being 10. Because you alwas hit the rear armour in CC, you're going to be regularly glancing vehicles to death, which of course means you never have to worry about explosions.
Smash gives you an AP value as well, how is that not a pro?
Everyone else is not slower on the whole.
*Generic non-fleeting unit*:
maximum charge range in 5th 12" (6" move 6" assault)
Maximum charge under 6th 18" (6" + 12" - this'll happen 1/36 times as opposed to no chance under 5th)
Minimum charge 8" (6"+2")
Average charge 13" (6" + 7")
Potential loss of 4" potential gain 6"
Fleet got slower and everyone else got faster.
Lazarus explains my issue with the witchblade.
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[mod]My moderation finger is getting twitchy guys, as some posts are getting close to being edited again. The important information sticky (http://www.40konline.com/index.php?topic=180207.0) was updated to include a new link to the Eldar FAQ, so please make use of this link to avoid having to go into detail about the FAQ in your replies.[/mod]
I'm enjoying reading everyone's in game experiences being reported back in this thread, so please keep those coming :).
Regarding the Howling Banshee debate versus Terminators, I actually don't view this as having a significant impact over whether I take Howling Banshees. The reason being is that if I was facing Marines in fifth edition, I wasn't using my Howling Banshees to assault Terminators, they were there for engaging regular Marine squads. All this debate about whether to assault Terminators in sixth is, therefore, somewhat moot in my opinion.
A far better test of how Howling Banshees perform will be to evaluate their effectiveness against regular Marine squads, and see whether they can still cut it. If anyone is interested in taking on that challenge over a number of games, I'd be interested to read the results.
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All this debate about whether to assault Terminators in sixth is, therefore, somewhat moot in my opinion.
I think it is the fact that you are going to see more terminators. At least that is how it is working out here so far.
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Well... we cannot disembark from the safety of our own Serpents/Falcons and assault the same turn no matter whether the vehicle moved or not so... banshees took a great hit.
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A far better test of how Howling Banshees perform will be to evaluate their effectiveness against regular Marine squads, and see whether they can still cut it. If anyone is interested in taking on that challenge over a number of games, I'd be interested to read the results.
A buddy of mine always runs at least two full units of Banshees (and sometimes even 3). I will get with him and find out how things go in the new edition. My test lists for this week do not have them because I'm exploring other options that are less assault orriented.
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We just can't get away from what we do best as Eldar and focus on the specialty of each unit and use them together. Somehow I feel this edition really makes Eldar a lot stronger. We just have to get away from the notion of what has worked in the past.
I have always used Banshees and Harlequins as a counter assault and mop up unit and they really excel in these roles. I don't see HOW baiting a squad of marines with Dire Avengers to be assaulted, using overwatch (possibly with a psychic boost), combined with Defend, some leadership advantage to keep them from running (Avatar), and then in your next player turn crashing in with those Banshees won't wipe the marine squad. Lots of set up, but isn't that how we roll?
I always try to abuse my opponents over eager desire to squish the elves. It sacrifices movement speed however.
Aside from all that jazz...I'd love to invest in Vibro Cannons. Indiscriminate multiple unit threat for the win!
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Vibro cannons seem a viable choice now
The other thing I like is that on jetbikes we are now T4 which means they now need S8 to instant death our characters which is a nice boost.
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I see eldar as beeing an excellent counter attack army right now, many of our troop weaponry is pretty short range but high volume so anyone charging at us is gonna take a beating, then we got plenty of units that can jump into the right after our front lines get hit to deal out some pain.
However, how do we deal with long range armies. Our transports are going to have huge targets painted on them, and will most likely be taking a lot of glancing hits, and even if we do manage to drop a squad off near the enemy they have to stand out in the open for a turn getting shot at before they can charge.
the only thing I can think of is to take bikes as shock troops to tie up the enemy while you bring up your heavy hitters, but I've only got a small squad of bikes I use for seer councils. Probably going to have to change that in this new edition.
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I think that vehicles as a whole will decrease as they are awesomely nerfed in 6th so we will have to handle long range infantry more than we will care for vehicles. Jetbikes and Warp Spiders are good at that.
War walkers with scatter lasers became much better because their glancing hits are now death to light and medium vehicles, but to keep them alive they may need to outflank. And since you roll a 3+ on second turn instead of 4+ you CAN count on them. More so if you take an Autarch (or if you get the new psychic powers and count on the one that gives you a rerol on the reserves). Even with Shuri-cannons the walkers are very good and very-very cheap.
Warp Spiders can Deep-strike and handle infantry quite nicely so I think they will make a come back. Also most long range armies like Imperial Guard and Tau (not very good at the moment but still throw a punch) are very bad in CC so even Warp Spiders can kick their asses. So can Guardian Jetbikes (maybe with a Warlock with Destructor). And both Jetbikes and Jump Infantry have Hammer of Wrath so more hits at I10.
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I think Warp Spiders definitely will be carrying much bigger sticks along with a boost to War Walkers as well. I truly believe it'll be harder to glance AV10 to death unless by small arms fire as it's much easier to penetrate that value. The squads of 3 are money too.
I would very much like to see a return to the 3 Shining Spears kit that used to be offered. On the GW site now you can only buy them 1 at a time along with Guardian Jetbikes. We could really use the update with some better kits. I am hesitant to spend money because of the changes just yet with the potential for a new dex or kits in the future.
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I would very much like to see a return to the 3 Shining Spears kit that used to be offered. On the GW site now you can only buy them 1 at a time along with Guardian Jetbikes. We could really use the update with some better kits. I am hesitant to spend money because of the changes just yet with the potential for a new dex or kits in the future.
I forgot to point out that Shining spears can too come back on the tables. With skilled rider they are even better.
I'm not sure about buying the old eldar jetbikes. I think a conversion of the new Dark Eldar jetbikes to some guardian or spear bikes will be great and not that hard to do.
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I'm not sure about buying the old eldar jetbikes. I think a conversion of the new Dark Eldar jetbikes to some guardian or spear bikes will be great and not that hard to do.
That's what I have done. It looks better IMO. It was also super easy.
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Looking at the FAQ for Star Engines again, I think they do stack with Flat Out. Star Engines need the vehicle to be capable of moving & not to have shot - or (dis)embark pax - that turn in order to use them. Flat out happens instead of shooting & Star Engines require you not to have shot, which you won't have done if you go Flat Out. The Star Engines aren't forfeiting shooting as such, they're something you can use if you haven't shot.
You can of course believe what you want.
However the fact still remain that in using 1 you can not shoot, and therefore can not give up your ability to shoot to use the other. Regardless of how you try and stack it 1 always overrides the other until you have a permissive FAQ stating you may use star engines in the turn when you move flat out.
Currently the FAQ stated nothing of the sort,
It states a vehicle that can move can use star engines.
if you look at the FAQ, you will see that a vehicle that can move can also shoot, albeit at a lower BS.
Therefore you still give up the ability to shoot in a turn where you are "crew shaken"
I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. My interpretation of the FAQ is that Star Engines are no longer in lieu/instead of shooting (they require you to have not shot, which is subtly different), so do not trump/override Flat Out. (Also, why would GW not make clear in the FAQ that Star Engines are now a useless waste of points if that was the case?)
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[mod]If the debate about the rules governing Star Engines is going to continue, please take it to the rules board, as this is not the place for an in-depth rules discussion.[/mod]
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Quote from: Enigma the Black Dragon on Today at 12:10:15 PM
I... don't really see how Veil of tears have been nerfed.
The FAQ. states that the second and third sentence are replaced, but the rest of the rules are still there. Didn't they just get boosted?
Or have I really missed something now?
I think they meant the part where it starts "Any enemy unit wishing to target..."
According to RAW currently, Shadowseers indeed still have the Veil of Tears psychic power with its old rules.
The sentences that were omitted stated that this power acts like a Warlock power, and one sentence of description of this power.
-Note that later in the FAQ, it states the warp charge of the shadowseer, while also noting that basically, VOT still works like it used to. (Page 3 in magenta towards the bottom).
This is bizarre to me, and I'm under the impression that they meant to replace the 2nd and 3rd paragraphs. However, at the moment this entry is simply weird all thanks to a pretty terrible job on the FAQ.
On another note, I really like how Fire Dragons are looking right now, especially the firepike. If the squad is given tank hunters, all of a sudden just that one gun being in range lets use seriously threaten vehicles. Then, one can move the squad forward to threaten infantry blocks.
Also note that Fuegan has a firepike on his own, and while he is incredibly expensive, he can strike as a monstrous creature against vehicles. I'm not going to push this (as it states in his entry what this apparently means), but if one ignores the parenthesis in his entry, one can assume that he can make smash attacks with the aid of the tank hunters' special rule. Eternal Warrior also keep his FNP from being removed, which is nice for challenges.
I'm almost considering having a large Harlequin unit with Eldrad+Fuegan. They can threaten vehicles, survive shooting with fortune, and win challenges somewhat easily.
Also before people switch completely to Wave Serpents, do consider the AP of the pulse laser. This may come in handy. I'll be pondering the use of inexpensive falcons more recently. 120pts for 3 str6 shots and 2 str8 shots.
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Just got my rule book today, so my verdict
wave serpants: damn, I've just got several, and they've been nerfed :'(, but at least it changes all the cut/paste lists everywhere (although that isn't as bad here as other forums)
Scat laz WW: very good, even better than they used to be, a very viable anti vehicle unit
Warp spiders: amazing before, more amazing now, they will become my chief anti mech from now on.
banshees: the only thing that is worse is assaulting out of wave serpants, although they have been nerfed slightly, it doesn't effect the way I use them.
farseers: great, can't wait, and will probabally take two in many games
Phoenix lords Are looking better too, now that very few things can ignore their save, just keep thyem in units for (las) cannon foder, and watch out for Snipers.
I think that we will see more footsloging lists on the forum, what with wave serpants going down (even if they might/might not get more speed), for Footdar there are some fights you just won't win, and have to resign yourself to losing, and just try to trash there army, most of those are against one dimensional shooty lists, such as the 6 russ 3 basilisk lists mentioned several pages back. my advice for that is stay out of LOS and in heavy cover, and try to tempt them forwards if possible to exploite that weak rear armour with WS.
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Glad to read about everyone's experiences and thoughts. Agree that warp spiders and war walkers are even better than before, and I understand just how dangerous swooping hawks are to vehicles now. I don't actually think that banshees have been hit that badly, as someone else pointed out, assaulting out of WSs with them now is like how it worked back in 3rd/4th - takes a little more thought, but not that big of a deal, and I also agree with what was said about not assaulting termies with them.
That said, I think counter assault is going to be more useful this edition, I may begin to make more frequent use of scorpions over banshees. The increased durability will also help them survive overwatch shots when used more offensively.
I really don't understand the new psychic power system, but I haven't gone over it in depth yet... *stretches hand to rulebook across the table*
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Something I have noticed for 6th that should make many more lists now. Singing spears on farseers and locks.
The codex clearly states that they are not 3x strength when thrown ad the FAQ hasn't said anything specifically either.
So surprise your opponents vehicles with a high Bs singing spear.
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Sorry mates, never thought the harlequin issue would be such a can of worms...
And as I don't play tourneys I can always discuss with my opponents which rules make sense and which doesn't... Of course RAW should be followed, and I can see that it's probably intended as you say Reepy. But as long as the FAQ is as it is, then I'm playing it so. If my opponent doesn't like it? Well of course I'll have to discuss it with him or her. Which will probably lead to us playing two games instead of one to see how it works out. win/win
Cheers mates!
---<Edit>---
Other than that. There's a lot of changes in this new edition. I can hardly say that I'm too fond of most of them. The way you can now wear down vehicles with glancing blows feels silly... that they still keep true line of sight... the new power weapon rules feel overly complicated in a game that has been simplified for so long... but my biggest issue is the feeling of how close combat have been pushed back even further, with shooting now truly dominating the field.
BUT!
I still feel that the game has needed some change for a long time, and that I've got a slight problem when it comes to adapting. I'm going to try these rules out and I'm sure that this will be a great ed. as soon as I get the hang of it ;)
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[mod]I've separated the Harlequin discussion, and moved it to the rules board. You can find it here (http://www.40konline.com/index.php?topic=222386.0)[/mod].
I'm going to try these rules out and I'm sure that this will be a great ed. as soon as I get the hang of it ;)
I think that this is very important to stress.
When the last big shift in the rules took place (second to third edition), my friends and me initially refused to play the new edition, because we thought it was too different on paper, and that the Eldar, in particular, had lost too much of their flavour. It was only through actually getting games in that I came to the conclusion that I was mistaken, and ever since then I've been a lot more relaxed about edition changes.
I think that it is also important to remember that the current codex is very much a temporary state of affairs for the Eldar in sixth edition. As a result, I'm more than happy just to muddle through until the new one is released, especially since some units in the book look as though they will actually benefit from the new rules. At any rate, I am seeing quite a few potential positives here, although I can't draw any firm conclusions until I've played a number of games.
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I think that it is also important to remember that the current codex is very much a temporary state of affairs for the Eldar in sixth edition.
This. +1
I'm less focused on competitive play which makes this easier for me to do now. I just hope they don't take 3 years to do the book...lol
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According to RAW currently, Shadowseers indeed still have the Veil of Tears psychic power with its old rules.
The sentences that were omitted stated that this power acts like a Warlock power, and one sentence of description of this power.
-Note that later in the FAQ, it states the warp charge of the shadowseer, while also noting that basically, VOT still works like it used to. (Page 3 in magenta towards the bottom).
This is bizarre to me, and I'm under the impression that they meant to replace the 2nd and 3rd paragraphs. However, at the moment this entry is simply weird all thanks to a pretty terrible job on the FAQ.
Fun fact: This is correct for RAW in English.
The German version of the FAQ explicitly substitutes the new sentences for all subsequent text, deleting the old rule completely.
I shall have to ask if I can use my English Codex and FAQ as I have those two in both languages. :P
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I am slightly curious as to what Swooping Hawks with Intercept will do against Hovering Flyers.... ;D
actually it wont work at all. first of all no matter how much a swooping hawk can move, all flyers, unless your the worst tactician with flyers, willl always be moving it so anything unless it has the anti air special rule will be hitting on 6's including swooping hawk since the only way for a swooping hawk to take down a flying is with haywire grandes in base contact.
My first couple of thought:
- Swooping Hawks are relatively useful again as Haywire is godly now.
- Mech has been weakened severely overall, Eldar is no exception. Shooty Dire Avengers will do reasonably alright (but they can't hide in a Wave Serpent too safely as now Stunned affects you even if you disembark next turn) but stuff like Banshees have taken a massive hit.
- The new powers are tolerable and even a few decent ones in there but I think the majority of Eldar players are going to just stick with the codex powers as they are more consistent.
- Shining Spears are harder to shoot down! Jink + Skilled Rider = awesome.
- Witchblades have been pooooowerrrrrrreddd d dooooowwwwwwwn against vehicles. Not useless by any stretch but definitely not amazing vs AV.
- On the flipside, Seer Council members with Destructor will be absolutely brutal to charge against. Very nice.
- Pathfinders got a nice boost with the new Sniper rules! Interesting....
- Our Jetbikes are pretty mindblowing right now. I'm still trying to wrap my head around whether they are now "awesome" or "totally awesome". Hammer of Wrath will mean lots more targets of opportunity for charging with bike units, especially if you keep Doom in the army.
Just a few thoughts for now, going to keep studying the book.
actually even though witchblade have been dulled down against vehicles, pay the points to upgrade them to a singing spear, rules and stats removed, have a warlock bodyguard of even just 5 or 6 and the farseer with the spear, can potentially take down any vehicle esepcially like the monolith when it deep strikes behind your lines to deploy troops.
[mod]Please don't double post, it's against the forum rules. Please also don't post rules and weapon stats, as this is also against the forum rules. As a new member to the forum, I recommend that you take the time to look at the rules which can be found here (http://www.40konline.com/index.php?action=about;sa=rules) - Iris[/mod]
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So something that people have talked about and I just realised. Swooping Hawk Intercept power is now another useless upgrade along with Warp Spiders Surprise Assault.
From what I've read so far there's no need for the power, so unless youre like me and in love with the sunrifle and shooting with them, 5 naked hawks can be your tank bombers for kinda cheap - though squishy.
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Just like Acute Senses on Maugan Ra will likely become night vision when we get our codex.
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Just like Acute Senses on Maugan Ra will likely become night vision when we get our codex.
So something that people have talked about and I just realised. Swooping Hawk Intercept power is now another useless upgrade along with Warp Spiders Surprise Assault.
From what I've read so far there's no need for the power, so unless youre like me and in love with the sunrifle and shooting with them, 5 naked hawks can be your tank bombers for kinda cheap - though squishy.
basically, what I think is very important, is that yes we have a very outdated codex but A it could be worse for power rankings, and B we will (hopefully) be getting a shiny new dex soon, so all of ese grievances are only temporary.
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My take on things:
Avatar: better with addition of smash (can now kill vehicles better), hammer of wrath, fear, and the changes to fearless rules. The character rules are pros and cons as he can single out enemy IC's or get blocked from fighting a squad by some annoying unit champion due to challenge. The addition of Warlord rules to the avatar are particularly interesting and flavourful (immovable object and tenacity I'm looking at).
Autarch: throwing plasma and haywire grenades can be useful esp when assaulting buildings, challenges are irritating, but the reserve bonus is awesome as reserves already have improved. Warlord rules seem much more useful on an autarch than any other type of eldar character. My autarch has a power lance unfortunately, so we will see how useful that is...
Farseer: not too sure on the psychic powers but there are some good ones in the rulebook. Deny the witch is not nearly as bad for us as for other armies as most of our powers are blessings. That being said our runes of warding are now the best anti psychic defence in the game. The singing spear/witchblade changes are irritating as I lose my portable lascannon. I will still take one of these guys in every army. Not sure if I would ever make my farseer a warlord or not...
Warlocks: giving a buff to deny the witch to every unit they are in is good, however deny the witch vs destructor is annoying though wall of death is an advantage, same issues for witchblades, conceal is a bit meh now as well... however being a character a protecting the unit they are in from big grumpy enemy characters is definite buff, esp when your troops are trying to hold that objective in the final phases of the game.
Dire avengers: only major change to these guys is their increased defensiveness against chargers. Overwatch plus bladestorm, defend, Buff with foreboding... ouch... using bladestorm against a charge is also a bit of a no brainier, as there is a high probability that you wont get to shoot the following turn because you'll be locked in combat.
Banshees: acrobatic will be used more often as the vehicle assault rules have changed, triskele as well. They are not as useful against termies but will still most likely be my go to combat troops. Standby for "unit cannot overwatch against banshee mask armed models" to become a rule in the new eldar codex...
Fire Dragons: got better with the changes in tank hunter and the ability to use melta bombs in combat against monstrous creatures! Crack shot vs jink is also very useful. Wall of death from the dragons breath flamer is also a nice addition but probably wont take it as I prefer the firepike.
Striking Scorpions: Plasma grenades are good for throwing, and are awesome against troops in buildings! Their better AS compared with other aspects if also very good. Scorpions claw got worse because of the specialist weapon rules, though it still provides a threat against enemy challengers and bigger characters or monsters.
Dark Reapers: a bit better because of crack shot and the ability to glance light vehicles to death (Dark eldar skimmers anyone?). Also because you can take buildings and deploy them you should always be able to pick a nice place for these guys to bunker down (litterally) and sweep large areas of enemies away.
Swooping hawks: infinitely better as they can now throw grenades, both plasma and haywire. As stated in the scorps entry they can really do damage on an assault on buildings with all the plasma death or the haywire damage to the building and the troops inside. Against vehicles they have improved due to the vehicle HP issue. However I cannot for the life of me find where people think they can assault fliers. No one can assault fliers. Not even with intercept. Actually intercept is now junk unless you are against a walker as the new vehicle assault rules mean that in most cases you are hitting with a much better chance than the minimum from intercept.
Warp spiders: better due to the move rules, and the glancing vehicle rules.
Shining spears: better due to hammer of wrath, and instant death rules, jink, and turbo boost. However as they are amed with a power lance by the new rules they are not as effective in subsequent rounds of combat against MEQ's. If I didn't hate the models so much... Skilled rider is a must for every squad. So is withdraw (see power lance comments).
Rangers/Pathfinders: Love the new changes, with being able to target enemy characters and special weapons troopers every once in a while, seems very characterful...
Guardians: Better for defending objectives due to overwatch, include the weapons platform and destructor in your defensive fire calculations. Still pretty weak though as hammer of wrath and similar abilities will really hurt them as they have such a low AS.
Jetbikes: improved for all the same reasons as the shining spears were.
Vipers: I'm going to try these guys again. The massive amount of Str6 attacks they can potentially shoot out and the glance to death options available for such weapons have potential. Jink, flat out rules means they can get in the backfield quickly and shoot out the rear armour of enemy tanks. 2x shuricannon for me, or perhaps the scatter laser if I have the points. open toped isn't as much as a weakness as two glances can kill them just as quickly. Speed, jink and positioning to keep them alive. Squadron rules help here as well.
Falcon: always shoot two weapons is great, and the AP of the pulse laser is going to be really useful now that power weapons will have trouble killing termies. Pulse laser and brightlance for my falcons now. No bother with any vehicle upgrades as they seem kinda useless now, maybe spirit stones. I may try a holofield if I'm carrying an important squad as the falcon can ill afford an instant pen and kill. But I don't expect him to last long.
Night Spinner: the AS to dangerous terrain tests is very annoying but I always though of it as a bonus to the difficult terrain test/pinning test to slow down enemy mobility. Anyone notice in the eldar list at the back of the book the night spinner is listed as a transport??
Fire Prism: the AP of the fire prism is now its greatest asset, as the bonuses to pen hits and killing of AS 2 guys will be harder to come by than before. Otherwise I'm not expecting too much again, and there will be no vehicle upgrades on this guy either.
War walkers: the vehicle rules are making these guys really powerful potentially. If you can't glance a vehicle to death with them in a single turn you are not using them right. Squadron rules are improved as well.
Support weapons: Same as before IMHO, there are still better heavy support choices. Vibro cannon is not as good as everyone thinks because I'm not seeing the lining up of multiple vehicles as easily as some think. I always though that vibros were best against horde armies, and their rules are pretty meh even there. no changes in the D cannon and shadow weaver though anti vehicle is better and D cannon have anti termi AP.
Wave serpent: I'll still use them, though their weapons loadout may change. The way troops can assault out of them now is a big nerf but then again I mostly take DA and Fire dragons anyways, and shoot the enemy to death with a tidy up assault following. Perhaps some scorps to better survive the enemy shooting would be better... we will have to see how things work out. What I am anticipating is the WS will not survive till the end game now, but will still survive long enough to deliver their packages to their first objective. They will also be destroyed more easily in counter assault so using them a a block to protect my units will not be as viable a tactic unless I'm planning on losing them in a sacrifice.
Wraithguard: better due to fearless changes and now one can protect the warlock in combat a bit. Wraithcannon is a beast if its overwatch hits. Despite their expense they are still going to be very good at defending an objective.
Wraithlord: smash is useless, fearless is better, cause fear is good, and the ability to act as a character is good and bad. Hammer of wrath is good as well, esp when charging a vehicle. The negation of the previous monstrous creature bonuses against vehicles is bad but hey we are already max St what more do you want. Oh and the AP of monstrous creatures means that you get the termi smashing ability and a great bonus on the vehicle damage chart.
Harlies: still very good, the changes to veil of tears (I will be using the intended rules not RAW) is interesting especially when the unit is in cover. Plasma grenades are great as I pointed out before, rending is still good, furious assault changes are ok but not game bending.
Special characters: Needless to say phoenix lords got much better as their armour is going to be much harder to pierce in CC. Wound allocation will be key, and with lookout sir etc they will never die. Fearless changes help them here as well. Ulthran is still good, and the only nerf really is Yreil's weapons anti vehicle abilities.
End of a long post; overall some interesting changes. I'm not as down in the dumps as others, but I will have to figure out how best to shoot out termies bunkered down. Perhaps avoid and take all the other objectives (as there are more with variable VP up for grabs). Certainly I will be trying different vehicle combos and may move to a more short ranged shooting type army with DA's, FD and Scorps. I can tell you one thing the avatar will be making more of an appearance and my swooping hawks which I haven't used this entire edition will be comming off the shelf for a dust off. Avoiding being glanced to death will be different, but I'm relying on jink to save 1/3 of those shots. Looking fwd to the eldar flyer when it comes out soon from what I hear. I'm guessing the rules for psychic pilot and vector dancer will be making an appearance...
[mod]On the whole you did a good job here of staying within the limits of the forum rules on copyright, but I did have to take out a couple of rules references which were too detailed/specific - Iris.[/mod]
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I do not believe the Shining Spears are armed with Power Lances. They are armed with Unusual Power Weapons and would use their own rules but have the AP as listed in the Rulebook.
The Power Lance would only be used if the codex referred to the weapon generically (i.e. "they are armed with power weapons"). Then you look at the weapon and determine what type it is. The Dire Avenger Exarch's "power weapon" would be such a scenario.
The laser lance however is not a generic power weapon and as such would fall under the Unusual Power Weapon rule, where it takes the AP from the rulebook and everything else works as described in the codex.
Hope that helps.
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Singing Spears are still at their usual high-str, they are not nerfed like Witchblades. Read their entry again, it clearly states what STR they are.
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With regards to War Walkers being more powerful, they certainly are on the offensive, but they're much more fragile now (despite the squad rule changes). They can be quickly glanced to death with a moderate amount of S4 fire.
Also, with the increase in the number of fliers on the board, keeping them standing is going to be much harder than before.. if I was faced with them and had fliers they'd likely be my first target.
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With regards to War Walkers being more powerful, they certainly are on the offensive, but they're much more fragile now (despite the squad rule changes). They can be quickly glanced to death with a moderate amount of S4 fire.
Also, with the increase in the number of fliers on the board, keeping them standing is going to be much harder than before.. if I was faced with them and had fliers they'd likely be my first target.
Well I've never had any issues with trying to keep them alive. They're not exactly pricey. Also killing them with S4 weapons is still hard as you have to shoot a lot of those. It's almost as hard to kill termies, though termies are usually closer and you can rappid fire at them, but the cost is not much lower. Actually Warwalkers with Shuricannons cost just as much as terminators.
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I have to share the fact that wraithguards are unaffected by much they gained a slight buff due to the warlock/spiritseer being a bonus to "Deny the Witch" and with the farseer being part of the unit most of the time. It makes it a bad target and makes them a don't bother trying to cast against that unit especially when enemy psykers have to cast on 3d6.
The problem is that many SM armies are trying to field their dusty scout snipers into their lists now. They're using them to try and pick-out my warlocks/farseers. Of course these haven't happened yet, but it does linger out there that they could get tripped and be assaulted by a MC or a dreadnought.
I didn't get hurt much by the Banshees getting a slight nerf when I was able to make them invisible and they assaulted a FULL squad of devastator squad. So they didn't get hit by OW, and Grenades of ALL sorts.
My Wraithlords saw some actions there and due to their S10 and damn good AP, most of the time the enemy bikers or jump packers didn't see through their thoughts of assaulting.
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I do not believe the Shining Spears are armed with Power Lances. They are armed with Unusual Power Weapons and would use their own rules but have the AP as listed in the Rulebook.
The Power Lance would only be used if the codex referred to the weapon generically (i.e. "they are armed with power weapons"). Then you look at the weapon and determine what type it is. The Dire Avenger Exarch's "power weapon" would be such a scenario.
The laser lance however is not a generic power weapon and as such would fall under the Unusual Power Weapon rule, where it takes the AP from the rulebook and everything else works as described in the codex.
Hope that helps.
I was refering to the AP of power lances vice generic power weapons. As the AP is lower after the charge is over it really doesn't matter to much IMHO as you can charge then withdraw then charge again to get the better AP. However I will double check my rulebook as there are so many minor rule tweaks one can easily miss something.
Ref warlocks getting sniped, I'm not to worried about that. They still get their IS, and a look out sir roll, and its pretty hard to hit them. Doing the math backwords for every 10 shots its about a 1 in 20 chance that everything goes according to plan and the warlock dies from the snipe. Its a nice cinematic effect but hardly game breaking. More likely the wraithguard will all be dead before the warlock.
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The problem is that many SM armies are trying to field their dusty scout snipers into their lists now. They're using them to try and pick-out my warlocks/farseers. Of course these haven't happened yet, but it does linger out there that they could get tripped and be assaulted by a MC or a dreadnought.
Ahhh! Deathmarks! This really hadn't occured to me and actually makes large sniper units pretty scary against warlocks who are fairly vulnerable, less so for farseers who have 3 wounds.
At the moment I'm having a 5 wraithguard and a warlock vs 10 fire dragons with kitted out exarch debate (who is also pretty scared of those damn deathmarks).
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I am pretty excited about the newfound survivability of the support platforms now. They went from my least to second favourite heavy choice! (crown still goes to walkers)
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I am pretty excited about the newfound survivability of the support platforms now. They went from my least to second favourite heavy choice! (crown still goes to walkers)
agreed, I will have to get my hands on some weapon platforms.
The problem is that many SM armies are trying to field their dusty scout snipers into their lists now. They're using them to try and pick-out my warlocks/farseers. Of course these haven't happened yet, but it does linger out there that they could get tripped and be assaulted by a MC or a dreadnought.
Ahhh! Deathmarks! This really hadn't occured to me and actually makes large sniper units pretty scary against warlocks who are fairly vulnerable, less so for farseers who have 3 wounds.
At the moment I'm having a 5 wraithguard and a warlock vs 10 fire dragons with kitted out exarch debate (who is also pretty scared of those damn deathmarks).
Snipers do seem rather worrying, but I'm not too worried. Do the exarch powers require the exarch to be alive to use them? That would make me worry mor ein they did.
With regards to War Walkers being more powerful, they certainly are on the offensive, but they're much more fragile now (despite the squad rule changes). They can be quickly glanced to death with a moderate amount of S4 fire.
Also, with the increase in the number of fliers on the board, keeping them standing is going to be much harder than before.. if I was faced with them and had fliers they'd likely be my first target.
WW have always been extremely fragile, as soon as anything shot at them they evaporated, that hasn't really changed much.
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Snipers do seem rather worrying, but I'm not too worried. Do the exarch powers require the exarch to be alive to use them? That would make me worry mor ein they did.
See page 21 of the Eldar codex for the answer to your question.
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Snipers do seem rather worrying, but I'm not too worried. Do the exarch powers require the exarch to be alive to use them? That would make me worry mor ein they did.
See page 21 of the Eldar codex for the answer to your question.
Thank you, I had a look just before the large unit section, it evidently didn't look far enough forward :(
So, snipers are now more deadly, especially for DA and FD, where the best exarch powers lie (IMO), I think that cover will be useful, as if you keep them in cover, the focus fire rule means that they might be kept safer, ( eithe shoot the exarch with a cover save, of not the exarch without a save)
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I'm wondering why Destructor cant be used in Overwatch. Flamers are allowed and it says in the FAQ that warlock are mastery level 0 because their powers are "always on", so why wouldn't they be allowed?
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I'm wondering why Destructor cant be used in Overwatch. Flamers are allowed and it says in the FAQ that warlock are mastery level 0 because their powers are "always on", so why wouldn't they be allowed?
Don't have either book on me to check the wording, but Destructor I believe is technically is not a weapon. It is a power used in the shooting phase. Overwatch is NOT the shooting phase.
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overwatch states its resolved like a normal shooting attack, (though in the enemies assault phase) id take this to mean you can use any/all shooting attacks you normally could (within the snap fire limitations ofcourse), just at bs1, or in the case of a template ability, you would get the template rules for overwatch.
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I was refering to the AP of power lances vice generic power weapons. As the AP is lower after the charge is over it really doesn't matter to much IMHO as you can charge then withdraw then charge again to get the better AP. However I will double check my rulebook as there are so many minor rule tweaks one can easily miss something.
Yes, I know what you were referring to. But Laser Lances are Laser Lances. They are not "Power Weapons." The Power Lance rule you are talking about is to be used when a model is described as having a "power weapon" and you determine the specific effect by looking at the model.
The laser lance, however, is a Laser Lance and falls under the Unusual Power Weapon rule, which tells you the correct AP to apply to the weapon while you use the weapon's special rules from the Eldar Codex.
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With regards to War Walkers being more powerful, they certainly are on the offensive, but they're much more fragile now (despite the squad rule changes). They can be quickly glanced to death with a moderate amount of S4 fire.
Also, with the increase in the number of fliers on the board, keeping them standing is going to be much harder than before.. if I was faced with them and had fliers they'd likely be my first target.
WW have always been extremely fragile, as soon as anything shot at them they evaporated, that hasn't really changed much.
This is the experience i've had with Warwalkers between 5th and 6th. They can put out alot of punishment, sure. They always have been able to, but the minute a full squad of Marines turns their bolters on them, they have always had a tendancy to fall appart. I've found, thus far (mind you, only after 3 games) that they are no less duable than they were before.
overwatch states its resolved like a normal shooting attack, (though in the enemies assault phase) id take this to mean you can use any/all shooting attacks you normally could (within the snap fire limitations ofcourse), just at bs1, or in the case of a template ability, you would get the template rules for overwatch.
The issue with this is that, regardless of taking a psychic test or not, Destructor is considered a Shooting Power. I have yet to see anything which states you can use Shooting Powers in overwatch.
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overwatch states its resolved like a normal shooting attack, (though in the enemies assault phase) id take this to mean you can use any/all shooting attacks you normally could (within the snap fire limitations ofcourse), just at bs1, or in the case of a template ability, you would get the template rules for overwatch.
The issue with this is that, regardless of taking a psychic test or not, Destructor is considered a Shooting Power. I have yet to see anything which states you can use Shooting Powers in overwatch.
This is essentially what I was getting at, but though another point. I'm going to say no Destructor in overwatch.
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Another thing I am keen to try out are the Phoenix lords and the new wound allocation system. As long as they are at the front of their unit then they get to use their 2+ save against all shots and 'look out sir' the failed saves. Like, 20 storm guardians with Karandras on foot just became an awesome unit?!
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Another thing I am keen to try out are the Phoenix lords and the new wound allocation system. As long as they are at the front of their unit then they get to use their 2+ save against all shots and 'look out sir' the failed saves. Like, 20 storm guardians with Karandras on foot just became an awesome unit?!
I don't think you can "Look out sir" after you've failed the save. I believe you take it before the saving throw.
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People seem to think you can move, run and assault... but I haven't found any rule that confirms that.
Read the rules for "Run" on page 14.
Then read the rules for "Fleet" on page 35.
The latter uses the word "and," but at not time can a model actually DO both (run and charge to even allow the dice re-rolls) at the same time.
Or am I missing something?
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The Rulebook: This edition will field way more vehicles, and especially Flyers. The skirmishpart is close to an end, as Melee gets shafted once again. Shooting got boosted to the limit where you will take shooting models/units before Melee units – They are jsut hat much better.
I had high hopes for this edition, but the Mech problem didn't diminish, instead we will see more of it. They might die easier, but they are still that much better then melee.
Allies: GW money rule that brings nothing good to the game. Hate it.
Buildings: GW money rule to help those without flyers. Hate it.
Jetbikes: Jetbikes got indeed boostet with the extra thoughness, and new incredible speed, and Jinx.
By far our best troop choice now since, this edition got evenmore mech heavy.
Shining Spears: Same as Jetbikes, but still overprised in opinion.
Swooping Hawks: Yes, Haywire granades sounds awesome, but one shooting attack from 7 models worth of 200+ points are redicoulous. They get better during assaults, since every model does one attack with the Haywire granade – That is ofcause if you are willing to take the risk of blowing up your own models. The unit is not worth it in my opinion.
Witchblade: This one got nerfed as well. Even when we always hit vehicles in the rear, they a far more random then before. But I can see the use of it with a unit of Warlocks + Farseer on jetbikes hunting vehicles.
Pathfinder/Sniper: Now with a chance of takng down light vehicles. Too random and expensive for my taste.
Holofield: Nerfed! Has no effect at all against glancing hits. Hardly worth the points now, since when penetrated it is probably already too late when hit by AP1 and AP2.
Falcon: Still abit overprised, but got better now it can go cruise speed and shoot two weapons.
Love the jinx rule and more speed overall.
Wave Serpent: Still abit overprised, but got better now it can go cruise speed and shoot two weapons.
Love the jinx rule and more speed overall..
Flyers: Brainfart from GW as they are hairpulling redicoulously overpowered – But hey, they need to earn money.....right? ...Why!...Why!!.
Guardians: Cheap unit for controlpoints, besides that useless.
Dire Avengers: As good as before, but I bet Rangers and Jetbikes will be chosen before these guys now due to better survivabillity and speed, and msot importantly the chance to bring down light vehicles.
Howling Banshees: Nerfed! So more Fire Dragons, and Wraithguards for those Terminators, or Avatar – If he ever get to them.
Warp Spiders: Good solid unit to dish out alot of S6 against units, and light vehicles.
Fire Dragons: Survivabillity = close to none, but they get the job done.
Avatar/MC:
Fear:
A nice close to worthless rules as most models already only hits him on 5+.
Smash:
A big nerf to the old rules description removed MC rule. Because of the shooting buff overall he will have a harder time to get to hsi target – And if he gets to a skimmer/fast the opponent played badly.
Hammer of Wrath: Wooot! rules description removed. Hey wait a min.. Armour save..why? He is a MONSTER!
Move trough Cover: Great rule that doesn't work while charging – Still puzzled over this one.
Vyper & Squadrons: Overall better, due to be able to fire two weapons at cruise speed, and break off from immmobilized models.
D-Cannons: Better survivabillity, but I doubt they will be fielded much with jsut the range ”24”.
Farseer: Gets absolutly nothing from the new deck of powers, as those is the Codex are superior. You don't want to roll for your powers and hope for the best. Guide even with the shorter range are in my opinon way better then the one(Prescience) you can get from the Divination deck, as it does not require LOS.
Fleet: Yep, it got better, and works during charges as well.
Overwatch: Why? Another shooter friendly rule which gimps the chance of melee further.
Warlords Traits: A nice little feature on the paper, but close to pointless when actully playing – Unless you roll your lucky number...
Deny the Witch: I've always seen Psykers being the trademark of Eldar, and there superiority in this regard. That gap has closed some to my dissapointment.
Striking Scorpions: Not much here, Infiltrate might be use full to get your Exarch scorpions claw clsoer to vehicles he can Smash.
Enjoy. :)
[mod]Please don't go into detail about rules, as this is against the forum rules - Iris.[/mod]
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Wow for a first post you've really put a dampner on the entire hobby!
personally I think you're wrong about the allies and the buildings. It add huge versatility into the hobby I believe.
But just glacing back over your post there are very feww comments made without some sort of a negative outlook. Time to pack it in I think if this is the way its making you feel.
Still, welcome to the Forum.
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Farseer: Gets absolutly nothing from the new deck of powers, as those is the Codex are superior. You don't want to roll for your powers and hope for the best. Guide even with the shorter range are in my opinon way better then the one(Prescience) you can get from the Divination deck, as it does not require LOS.
No, the Codex powers are not just superior. There is some inheriant risk with rolling random powers but Divination's default spell is simply ace. Lots of pwerfull stuff in there notto mention increase of FOC allows us 4 HQ's where we can massively multiply our forces with psychic powers. You think shooting is king? Try 4 Seers that support a firebase. You can do prescience cheaper than guide and more flexible too.
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Wow for a first post you've really put a dampner on the entire hobby!
personally I think you're wrong about the allies and the buildings. It add huge versatility into the hobby I believe.
But just glacing back over your post there are very feww comments made without some sort of a negative outlook. Time to pack it in I think if this is the way its making you feel.
Still, welcome to the Forum.
Thanks for the welcome :D
I will say that we are suffering from a old codex being put to a new RuleBook, I'm sure that will help alot.
I don't play Eldars to field marines, necrons, or deamons in my lists. I don't play Eldar to field buildings to have a fair chance against Flyers. On top of that the balance is further screwed by the new Allies rules, I can't see how thats a good thing.
Yes, I always have a sceptical view on new Rulebooks like this, unlike others who will accept anything to keep playing. I love to play 40k, Fantasy, and WM/H, but we all have a limit. Luckily we play with a AS system at our community, that usual takes the top off, and helps on enjoying the game.
No, the Codex powers are not just superior. There is some inheriant risk with rolling random powers but Divination's default spell is simply ace. Lots of pwerfull stuff in there notto mention increase of FOC allows us 4 HQ's where we can massively multiply our forces with psychic powers. You think shooting is king? Try 4 Seers that support a firebase. You can do prescience cheaper than guide and more flexible too.
So you're saying that shooting gets even better from that? Can't see your point. How do you get presicence cheeper when you need to buy powers form the Eldar Codex to exchange for those in Divination?
[mod]Please don't double post, it'a against the forum rules. You can find these rules here (http://www.40konline.com/index.php?action=about;sa=rules) - Iris[/mod]
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[mod]A reminder to everyone about rules discussion: I'm noticing a lot of rules debates creeping into this thread. This is not the right place for that, please start new threads in the rules board if you want to debate these points. Any further rules disucssion in this thread will be removed as being off topic.[/mod]
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Posted by: Dinesen
I will say that we are suffering from a old codex being put to a new RuleBook, I'm sure that will help alot.
This is fixable though. :)
I don't play Eldars to field marines, necrons, or deamons in my lists. I don't play Eldar to field buildings to have a fair chance against Flyers. On top of that the balance is further screwed by the new Allies rules, I can't see how thats a good thing.
Agreed. However, short of a tournmanet or the like, you can pretty much agree to use ot not use whatever you like. Similar to playing APOC games.
So you're saying that shooting gets even better from that? Can't see your point. How do you get presicence cheeper when you need to buy powers form the Eldar Codex to exchange for those in Divination?
Yes, I am saying shooting gets even better. Sorry on the cheaper part - I mean better in flexibility. Prescience has double the range that Guide does and does not mention being limited to the shooting phase either. When you add in all that extra bang for the buck, it does seem cheaper than guide conisdering it does everything Guide did and more as the default power. You are guaranteed to get this even if you only choose one power.
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Yes, I am saying shooting gets even better. Sorry on the cheaper part - I mean better in flexibility. Prescience has double the range that Guide does and does not mention being limited to the shooting phase either. When you add in all that extra bang for the buck, it does seem cheaper than guide conisdering it does everything Guide did and more as the default power. You are guaranteed to get this even if you only choose one power.
I see your point, and yes it brings more flexibillity then Guide. However, you can't "hide" i Vehicles with your Seer, and use it on other units then the one he is with. This is where Guide shines. But I can see the possibillities, of 10 WG with Warlock+Conceal and a Seer attached with this power. :)
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I see your point, and yes it brings more flexibillity then Guide. However, you can't "hide" i Vehicles with your Seer, and use it on other units then the one he is with.
Honestly, I don't see our Seers hiding in vehicles much in 6th edition. They will be either Bike mounted for additional toughness, better save and speed, or they are likely part of a firebase group.
Guide does not shine when you compare double the range and flexibility. I know other than Eldrad, I won't have guide on any of my Seers.
having up to 4 Seers in a 2,000 point list will magnify firepower like nobody's business...lol
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I see your point, and yes it brings more flexibillity then Guide. However, you can't "hide" i Vehicles with your
having up to 4 Seers in a 2,000 point list will magnify firepower like nobody's business...lol
How does this happen?
As far as I can see the FOC is exactly the same as it always was... barring an allied detachment.
Have I missed something?
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I guess I'm just having some difficulty with the dismissiveness of your long post, Dinesen, as well as some things in it that are hand-wavingly presented as being obviously right when I feel they are either highly debateable or just completely wrong. Of course you are entitled to your opinion but I think you will find more experienced players will read and respond better if you present a more reasoned argument. Naturally I agree with you about certain things so let me debate those I don't necessarily:
Allies: GW money rule that brings nothing good to the game. Hate it.
Hobby-wise Allies are a fantastic addition because they allow for some great modding and painting options that many people will be happy for. Game wise, I doubt they will be as deadly as people are afraid of. Some armies will like taking allies more than others but I don't think in any case allies will make or break most games. My Eldar for example will prefer to just stick with more Eldar for the time being...unless GW continues to stiff us on things that can kill Flyers, ha ha!
Swooping Hawks: Yes, Haywire granades sounds awesome, but one shooting attack from 7 models worth of 200+ points are redicoulous. They get better during assaults, since every model does one attack with the Haywire granade – That is ofcause if you are willing to take the risk of blowing up your own models. The unit is not worth it in my opinion.
You aren't paying 200+ pts for a single grenade, come on now. You are buying them now for all around capabilities and because they can actually kill vehicles rather than just annoy them - drop from the sky, nuke an infantry unit, fire in the shooting phase at another infantry unit, next turn charge a vehicle (or two) and glance them to death with ease - in the old edition they could barely do anything against vehicles at all since Glancing hits generally just made it so things couldn't shoot or lost a gun, etc. They are naturally still overpriced but their overall utility went up spectacularly. As for blowing up your own models to kill things, Fire Dragons, Seer Councils, Harlequins and a few other unlucky customers are averting their eyes and whistling in the corner.
Witchblade: This one got nerfed as well. Even when we always hit vehicles in the rear, they a far more random then before. But I can see the use of it with a unit of Warlocks + Farseer on jetbikes hunting vehicles.
I think you have to understand that without the nerf, the old Witchblades would have made a mockery of the new Hull Point rules. In the old edition, Glancing and Penetrating hits all rolled on a table and most of the time glancing hits didn't do much and penetrating hits did little unless you rolled high. Now 3 of either will wreck a normal vehicle - that is a huge difference. Consider now that a charging Seer Council on bikes (a unit I use frequently) will still only need roughly the same number of *hits* to wreck a vehicle as they did before. Do the math and you'll see what I mean. And now that Witchblades are more likely to glance, there's less chance of your target exploding to hurt you after you slice it down.
Pathfinder/Sniper: Now with a chance of takng down light vehicles. Too random and expensive for my taste.
Well they always had a chance of taking down light vehicles, anyone who's used them has done it at some point, they just now do it slightly better since glances have gone up in value. They are not "too random" if you give them rerolls to hit and to wound (aka Guide/Doom) and now with the new Precision Shot rule they have zoomed up in usefulness as well. In my first game I've already shot out the Powerfist from a marine squad with ease.
Guardians: Cheap unit for controlpoints, besides that useless.
Complete nonsense. Guardians have always been a highly useful troop choice and they have only gotten better in the new edition. Their heavy gun is even better now with Snap Fire options if they go to ground and Overwatch has made them rather dangerous to try and charge. With the changes to Fearless keeping an Avatar nearby now makes them rather godly objective holders for the points.
Fire Dragons: Survivabillity = close to none, but they get the job done.
With the potential of Forewarning to gain an invul save, they can actually gain some survivability. Larger units could actually prove very useful too (reroll to hit in shooting phase, reroll (or use Foreboding) for Overwatch, throw meltas at MCs in melee) thus making it more likely you'll put some kind of Farseer support in with them for something like Fortune.
Avatar/MC:
Fear:
A nice close to worthless rules as most models already only hits him on 5+.
Not most characters, or the myriad of things that have WS 5.
Smash:
A big nerf to the old rules description removed MC rule. Because of the shooting buff overall he will have a harder time to get to hsi target – And if he gets to a skimmer/fast the opponent played badly.
So now he auto-glances and Penetrates on a 2+ when using Smash, seems pretty decently fair given that 3 of any glance/pen will automatically wreck versus the old edition where you still had to roll well...
Hammer of Wrath: Wooot! rules description removed. Hey wait a min.. Armour save..why? He is a MONSTER!
You are complaining about a completely free bonus attack? Not to mention the fact that nothing in the game ignores armor saves with Hammer of Wrath. I'm just confused at this complaint.
D-Cannons: Better survivabillity, but I doubt they will be fielded much with jsut the range ”24”.
Not disagreeing really (although the D-Cannon effect got a boost from the Hull Point rules) but just wanted to point out that Vibro Cannons have been made extremely attractive now given that three hits will down a zooming Flyer - one of the only consistent anti-zooming-Flyer things in our codex currently. I see these as much more likely to be fielded over the other two cannon types anyways.
Farseer: Gets absolutly nothing from the new deck of powers, as those is the Codex are superior. You don't want to roll for your powers and hope for the best. Guide even with the shorter range are in my opinon way better then the one(Prescience) you can get from the Divination deck, as it does not require LOS.
Wow, that first statement is just plain wrong. Divination and Telepathy are both excellent trees and there are compelling reasons to take powers off of them. Prescience is way, way better than Guide since with the increased range you can actually effect more targets of opportunity as the battle gets underway and its effect is twice as good because it works in melee. The fact of not needing LoS for Guide is a bit moot now as hiding your Farseer in a vehicle is quickly becoming a thing of the past. Just about every single power on both lists is useful too (arguably only Scrier's Gaze is currently mostly useless since GW screwed up the wording to make it give no benefit to Reserves or Outflank currently). I can see serious reasons I would take powers off either list so just dismissing them with a wave of the hand is highly short-sighted, in my opinion.
Deny the Witch: I've always seen Psykers being the trademark of Eldar, and there superiority in this regard. That gap has closed some to my dissapointment.
On one hand, people can now get lucky and stop our offensive powers once in a blue moon. On the other hand, the vast majority of armies cannot in any way stop our boosting powers...I'll gladly take it.
The bottom line right now is that the number 1 issue facing Eldar players is going to be how to deal with multi-flyer armies that just zoom around all game. Our preponderance of rerolls will help a bit but we'll need to think of other consistent ways to do well against an army that brings 3+ flyers.
Anways, just some of my thoughts. Enjoy the forum and good luck in your games!
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I see your point, and yes it brings more flexibillity then Guide. However, you can't "hide" i Vehicles with your
having up to 4 Seers in a 2,000 point list will magnify firepower like nobody's business...lol
How does this happen?
As far as I can see the FOC is exactly the same as it always was... barring an allied detachment.
Have I missed something?
Correct me if I'm wrong but they are insinuating you take 2 contingents of Eldar, therefore the possibility of 4 HQ choices ergo, 4 seers.
The bottom line right now is that the number 1 issue facing Eldar players is going to be how to deal with multi-flyer armies that just zoom around all game. Our preponderance of rerolls will help a bit but we'll need to think of other consistent ways to do well against an army that brings 3+ flyers.
Anways, just some of my thoughts. Enjoy the forum and good luck in your games!
We have two dedicated anti Flyer units. The air superiority fighter, Nightwing and the Falcon hull AA tank, the Firestorm.
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Correct me if I'm wrong but they are insinuating you take 2 contingents of Eldar, therefore the possibility of 4 HQ choices ergo, 4 seers.
According to the allies section, allies must be taken from a different codex and use a different, limited, FOC (including a maximum of 1HQ choice).
EDIT:
P109
Force Organisation Chart
and
Allied Detachments
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Correct me if I'm wrong but they are insinuating you take 2 contingents of Eldar, therefore the possibility of 4 HQ choices ergo, 4 seers.
According to the allies section, allies must be taken from a different codex and use a different, limited, FOC (including a maximum of 1HQ choice).
In that case I have no idea how they intend to run 4 Farseers.
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Correct me if I'm wrong but they are insinuating you take 2 contingents of Eldar, therefore the possibility of 4 HQ choices ergo, 4 seers.
According to the allies section, allies must be taken from a different codex and use a different, limited, FOC (including a maximum of 1HQ choice).
[/quote]
In that case I have no idea how they intend to run 4 Farseers.
[/quote]
They are referring to page 110 under the section, "Bigger Games"
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Haven't got my rulebook with me at work, strangely, but by "Bigger games" are we refering to Apoc? in which case anything goes and you could have an army of Farseer if your so wished?
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Although games of Warhammer 40,000 will probably make a shift from 1500 to 2000 for tournament play, games above that amount, probably most like 2500 can have 2 force organisation charts (which has been the same since 4th edition, no changes there). But Farseers are alot more powerful now, so its fun to dream about having 4 on the field at once.
I had a Dark Eldar player dreaming about having 12 Haemonculus in a 3000 point game, at which point I reminded him thats an apocalpse size game anyway, so take what you want rules were in effect.
So between 2001~2999 can be considered bigger games.
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Haven't got my rulebook with me at work, strangely, but by "Bigger games" are we refering to Apoc? in which case anything goes and you could have an army of Farseer if your so wished?
[mod]In that case, please look it up when you get home. Asking for rules is against the forum rules.[/mod]
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Correct me if I'm wrong but they are insinuating you take 2 contingents of Eldar, therefore the possibility of 4 HQ choices ergo, 4 seers.
According to the allies section, allies must be taken from a different codex and use a different, limited, FOC (including a maximum of 1HQ choice).
In that case I have no idea how they intend to run 4 Farseers.
It's part of the "Bigger games" section on page 110 of the BDB.
The second paragraph details how you get access to a second primary detachment and it's well within the normal scope of a non-apoc game.
(and you can take a second allied force if you want, Eldar plus Dark Eldar and Tau? sounds like a rule headache waiting to happen!)
Scratch that last bit, a second allied detachement has to be from the same army as the first
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The bottom line right now is that the number 1 issue facing Eldar players is going to be how to deal with multi-flyer armies that just zoom around all game. Our preponderance of rerolls will help a bit but we'll need to think of other consistent ways to do well against an army that brings 3+ flyers.
Anways, just some of my thoughts. Enjoy the forum and good luck in your games!
We have two dedicated anti Flyer units. The air superiority fighter, Nightwing and the Falcon hull AA tank, the Firestorm.
I feel that i need to point out that neither of those units are Codex units. They do not change the fact that there is nothing in our Codex which is geared towards taking out Flyers with any degree of reliability.
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Well I'm not going to get in to the validity of FW rules / models but if it says in a small box in the rules section words to the effect. the xxx is a HQ/EL/TTR/FA/HS choice for a CWE army" then I'm going to take it especially if is has the Skyfire and Interceptor rules!
@Iris, I wasn't asking for the rule merely asking what the guy was on about as it was infered that there are now 4 levels of games, this was news to me. but yes I will go away and read the book ;)
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The bottom line right now is that the number 1 issue facing Eldar players is going to be how to deal with multi-flyer armies that just zoom around all game. Our preponderance of rerolls will help a bit but we'll need to think of other consistent ways to do well against an army that brings 3+ flyers.
Anways, just some of my thoughts. Enjoy the forum and good luck in your games!
We have two dedicated anti Flyer units. The air superiority fighter, Nightwing and the Falcon hull AA tank, the Firestorm.
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Forgeworld models being the only things with a particular rule doth not a rebuttal make :). Joking aside, Forgeworld is forgeworld as far as most people are concerned, they are not stock Eldar models from the codex and highly limited in availability - I wouldn't exactly include them as part of general army building strategies against Flyers.
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Another thing I am keen to try out are the Phoenix lords and the new wound allocation system. As long as they are at the front of their unit then they get to use their 2+ save against all shots and 'look out sir' the failed saves. Like, 20 storm guardians with Karandras on foot just became an awesome unit?!
Most anything will eat stormies alive. With challenges, even a lesser character will want to pull your PL out of the fight so the rest of the squad can destroy your Guardians. 20 stormies are also going to have to hoof it. With the reduced cover saves, and the fact it's hard to hide 21 models, i don't see this as a good option. Stormies are still very much a niche shooty unit still (flamers) despite holding CCWs+pistols. Ten Scorpions are the same price as 20 Stormies before upgrades, and a much better option with Karandras.
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Another thing I am keen to try out are the Phoenix lords and the new wound allocation system. As long as they are at the front of their unit then they get to use their 2+ save against all shots and 'look out sir' the failed saves. Like, 20 storm guardians with Karandras on foot just became an awesome unit?!
Most anything will eat stormies alive. With challenges, even a lesser character will want to pull your PL out of the fight so the rest of the squad can destroy your Guardians. 20 stormies are also going to have to hoof it. With the reduced cover saves, and the fact it's hard to hide 21 models, i don't see this as a good option. Stormies are still very much a niche shooty unit still (flamers) despite holding CCWs+pistols. Ten Scorpions are the same price as 20 Stormies before upgrades, and a much better option with Karandras.
Not to disagree with your whole point, bit actually as the rules currently stand, it seems that a sergeant can't just neutralize a lord like that,
Challenges and wound overflow (http://www.40konline.com/index.php?topic=222477.0)
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Another thing I am keen to try out are the Phoenix lords and the new wound allocation system. As long as they are at the front of their unit then they get to use their 2+ save against all shots and 'look out sir' the failed saves. Like, 20 storm guardians with Karandras on foot just became an awesome unit?!
Most anything will eat stormies alive. With challenges, even a lesser character will want to pull your PL out of the fight so the rest of the squad can destroy your Guardians. 20 stormies are also going to have to hoof it. With the reduced cover saves, and the fact it's hard to hide 21 models, i don't see this as a good option. Stormies are still very much a niche shooty unit still (flamers) despite holding CCWs+pistols. Ten Scorpions are the same price as 20 Stormies before upgrades, and a much better option with Karandras.
Regarding challenges, the unit that is charging gets to issue a challenge first and you only get one challenge per fight, so I think that as long as your warlock gets in there and calls out some random sergeant then you're free to swing away with your PL.
Regarding survivability to shooting, the entire unit has a 2+ armour save with a PL at the front so they are as easy to shoot up as a squad of 20 terminators!
My post was really just about drawing attention to the tactic of sticking a PL at the very front of a squad (pretty much any squad), but regarding the value of stormies vs. scorps, An enhance warlock makes up the WS and I deficiencies of the guardians, so you are trading an large number of attacks and wounds for a small difference in S and a save that only matters in assaults (you also need to weigh up the value of an exarch vs the value of a warlock and 2 special weapons). I think that the stormies come out ahead by a mile here.
The Karandras example was probably a bad one though, I think on reflection that I'd sooner have a PL that strikes with a power weapon at their actual initiative in a unit like that. Probably Fuegan or Maugan Ra.
EDIT: Oh cool, thanks Log, nice that we don't even need to throw the warlock under a bus to keep the PL swinging :)
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Another thing I am keen to try out are the Phoenix lords and the new wound allocation system. As long as they are at the front of their unit then they get to use their 2+ save against all shots and 'look out sir' the failed saves. Like, 20 storm guardians with Karandras on foot just became an awesome unit?!
I might need to direct you to this (http://www.40konline.com/index.php?topic=222473.0;topicseen) thread.
Long story short; would allocation and Look Out Sir doesn't work like that...
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Another thing I am keen to try out are the Phoenix lords and the new wound allocation system. As long as they are at the front of their unit then they get to use their 2+ save against all shots and 'look out sir' the failed saves. Like, 20 storm guardians with Karandras on foot just became an awesome unit?!
I might need to direct you to this (http://www.40konline.com/index.php?topic=222473.0;topicseen) thread.
Long story short; would allocation and Look Out Sir doesn't work like that...
I quite relieved that it isn't as good as I thought - it was looking likely to be the 'multi-wound models all equipped different' exploit of 6th Edition. I still think that taking all your AP3+ shots on a PL and allocating away all your AP 1 and 2 shots is going to be a massive boost to the survivability of a unit. Another reason for Fuegan to be the PL of choice in this tactic as his FNP will help him stay up against torrents.
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I still think that taking all your AP3+ shots on a PL and allocating away all your AP 1 and 2 shots is going to be a massive boost to the survivability of a unit.
You can't do that.
The attacking player decides in which order the different AP wound pools are allocated to a unit.
Defenders no longer have any say in wound allocation other than to try to make look out sir rolls.
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I still think that taking all your AP3+ shots on a PL and allocating away all your AP 1 and 2 shots is going to be a massive boost to the survivability of a unit.
You can't do that.
The attacking player decides in which order the different AP wound pools are allocated to a unit.
Defenders no longer have any say in wound allocation other than to try to make look out sir rolls.
Why would the order in which they are allocated matter? They all hit the front model (the pl in this case) and then whenever the ap1/2 comes up I look out sir.
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Regarding survivability to shooting, the entire unit has a 2+ armour save with a PL at the front so they are as easy to shoot up as a squad of 20 terminators!
Not really a fair comparison. 3 failed saves and you revert back to the durability of guardsmen. The shooting player controlling the action makes this far more dangerous but it can still be done with the right type of support. Basically, anything with a + as well as an invulnerable....stu ff like Asurmen or any Phoenix Lord (Eternal Warrior) with the Divination power that grants a ++...especially when combined with Fortune.
There is still a way around this though. Flyers / outflankers etc. can get around targetting the "front" of a unit to attack the "unprotected" side so I don't really see this as a reliable tactic....neat when it works though.
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Regarding survivability to shooting, the entire unit has a 2+ armour save with a PL at the front so they are as easy to shoot up as a squad of 20 terminators!
Not really a fair comparison. 3 failed saves and you revert back to the durability of guardsmen. The shooting player controlling the action makes this far more dangerous but it can still be done with the right type of support. Basically, anything with a as well as an invulnerable....stu ff like Asurmen or any Phoenix Lord (Eternal Warrior) with the Divination power that grants a ++...especially when combined with Fortune.
There is still a way around this though. Flyers / outflankers etc. can get around targetting the "front" of a unit to attack the "unprotected" side so I don't really see this as a reliable tactic....neat when it works though.
If we're adding fortune in then you can dump ap2 shots onto the warlock fairly reliably, which would be really nice. But then we're investing 2 hqs in this squad which sounds a bit too all in for my tastes. Could be done at a 2000 point game (double slots!) though. Coming at them from the side is definitely the best plan against a unit like this - yay for another reason to be happy about eldar mobility in this edition!
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If we're adding fortune in then you can dump ap2 shots onto the warlock fairly reliably, which would be really nice
Of course we are adding in Fortune when making a defensive strategy....that's what we do...lol
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I played my first 6th edition game with the Eldar and I wanted to share my experience. This is the list I used.
Craftworld Eldar - 1000pts.
Eldrad Ulthran - 210pts.
Farseer on Jetbike - 168pts.
Singing Spear, Spirit Stones, Guide, Eldritch Storm, Mind War, Eldar Jetbike
Dire Avengers (8) - 113pts.
Exarch, Second shuriken catapult
Guardian Defenders (10) - 85pts.
Shuriken cannon platform
Guardian jetbike squadron (5) - 110pts.
Striking Scorpions (5) - 107pts.
Exarch, Scorpion claw
Warp Spiders (5) - 127pts.
Exarch, Additional Death spinner
War Walker Squadron (2) - 80pts.
Two Shuriken cannons
I wasn't trying to use an optimal list, but more try the new psychic powers, jet-bikes, characters and so on.
I played against a Chaos Space Marine player. He had two Berserker squads, a Defiler, a flying Demon Prince and some kind of other Demon, as well as a Rhino for one of the squads and a unit of lesser demons.
First on the psychic powers:
With Eldrad I got Devination powers: Prescience, Misfortune, Precognition and Forboding.
With the second Farseer I got Telepathy powers: Mental Fortitude, Psychic Shriek and Hallucination.
I've got to tell you Prescience is so much better then Guide. It was the first game for as long as I've played Eldar that I felt I could move my Farseers wherever I want.
Misfortune is the other jewel. Got Misfortune on a squad of Berserkers and Prescience on the War Walkers... it was devastating to watch.
With the second Farseer I only used Hallucination as it seemed far superior to the other two. I should have used Psychic Shriek. Hallucination didn't do much. I used it four times. First time I got denied. Second the target unit did a few hits on itself but only one died. The third and the fourth turns I only got the pinning test... Those weren't points well spent.
Jetbikes - they are faster... that's for sure. And having a Jink does help for their survivability. But they still cannot kill stuff reliably. Too few shots. I really needed the Shuriken Cannons in this game but I don't think it would have made a big difference (BS and all that - it's not my first rodeo). They aren't that hard to kill. And when you close up to try and shoot the catapults you might not get far enough in the assault phase to be out of charge range. A Demon Prince tried to assault my bikes this game. He had only one wound though. Twin-linked helps so much when you Overwatch. I got that wound.
Not much to say about the Guardians and the Dire Avengers except that the Avengers didn't let me down. They never have.
I've never had much luck with Striking Scorpions. I didn't this game either. Don't know why I didn't take banshees instead. They managed to show me the new Challenge rules though. You can really control the battle when you use Challenges. Killed 4 marines - one of them a sergeant. Good enough I guess.
Warp Spiders are even more awesome now. They zoom around and kill stuff. Especially stuff with Misfortune. ;) I didn't remember to leave all of them in cover though - two dead from a defiler shot plus three Avengers that were also in the open. Focus fire really hampers things that stay in the open.
War Walkers... I just cannot stress enough how valuable this guys have become. First turn - no more Rhino. Second turn - 2HP from a Defiler. They did die to that same Defiler though. Blasts not needing to have their hole over the model is a big deal.
Those are my first impressions. I made a lot of mistakes. There is a lot to process in the new edition. But overall I think it made our codex somewhat better and I do believe that 6th edition is far superior in tactics and game-play to 5th.
[gmod]You know, it is possible to actually post without including too much copyrighted information. I've seen it done before. Give it a try and we'll both be happy.[/gmod]
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had my fist three battles in 6th, all against most,y Nurgle chaos space marines.
basically what I had was: seer, guardian jetbikes, DA is serpants, WS, and FD in serpants, and banshees/shining spears(swapped them out after first two games)
Farseer: didnt get great psychic powers, and I used both divination and telepathy, with divination being far superior, the only real thing telepathy did was make him scared of my seer, he pinned a unit, that was it.
guardian : I thought they were great, they killed more than the DA, and were able To skip out of assault range a few times.
DA: quite good, I prefer the jetbikes, but the DA did have the added bonus of Moving 42 inches in one turn ;D
The WS did quite well, I only used them in one game, and they died quie swiftly when they came in, but they did maul a squad of plague marines, and drew fire from the rest of my force.
the FD made the best of a bad situation, my opponent took no vehicles but they were quite good, they and the falcon pact teq death, but the termies deep striked (is that the right word, striked?) miles away from them, and I decided to keep them foreign rather than relocating (it feels like I use a strategic redeployment each time I go flat out with star engines ;D) but they drew a lot of fire. Decimated some plague bikers, and killed about a dozen marines.
the banshees were useless, i used them in 1 game, and never even dismounted them. I had not taken doom (I think next time I will get a doom seer to baby sit the banshees, and a new seer with divination) I just didn't want them to die/ be tar pitted by plague marines. As it was they contested one objective, and hat was it, but it may be that I am to blame for that.
the spears were good, I just misused them, I charged them at a squad, who they promptly mauled, (the exarch took out the power fist sarge, the rest of the squad took out 5 more, but the last marine refused to die, he locked me in combat, and with large charge ranges, he manged to get two full squads at them, dragging them down.
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Another thing I am keen to try out are the Phoenix lords and the new wound allocation system. As long as they are at the front of their unit then they get to use their 2+ save against all shots and 'look out sir' the failed saves. Like, 20 storm guardians with Karandras on foot just became an awesome unit?!
Most anything will eat stormies alive. With challenges, even a lesser character will want to pull your PL out of the fight so the rest of the squad can destroy your Guardians. 20 stormies are also going to have to hoof it. With the reduced cover saves, and the fact it's hard to hide 21 models, i don't see this as a good option. Stormies are still very much a niche shooty unit still (flamers) despite holding CCWs+pistols. Ten Scorpions are the same price as 20 Stormies before upgrades, and a much better option with Karandras.
Not to disagree with your whole point, bit actually as the rules currently stand, it seems that a sergeant can't just neutralize a lord like that,
Challenges and wound overflow (http://www.40konline.com/index.php?topic=222477.0)
Fair point, however, It is still much better to throw a Warlock/Exarch in the challenge than your PL depending on the fight. Even if wounds can flow over, I'd rather they go on the squad than the PL. Honestly, I forgot to take the Warlock into account with the Karandras+stormies example :P It's always going to be situational though.
Another thing I am keen to try out are the Phoenix lords and the new wound allocation system. As long as they are at the front of their unit then they get to use their 2+ save against all shots and 'look out sir' the failed saves. Like, 20 storm guardians with Karandras on foot just became an awesome unit?!
Most anything will eat stormies alive. With challenges, even a lesser character will want to pull your PL out of the fight so the rest of the squad can destroy your Guardians. 20 stormies are also going to have to hoof it. With the reduced cover saves, and the fact it's hard to hide 21 models, i don't see this as a good option. Stormies are still very much a niche shooty unit still (flamers) despite holding CCWs+pistols. Ten Scorpions are the same price as 20 Stormies before upgrades, and a much better option with Karandras.
Regarding challenges, the unit that is charging gets to issue a challenge first and you only get one challenge per fight, so I think that as long as your warlock gets in there and calls out some random sergeant then you're free to swing away with your PL.
Regarding survivability to shooting, the entire unit has a 2+ armour save with a PL at the front so they are as easy to shoot up as a squad of 20 terminators!
My post was really just about drawing attention to the tactic of sticking a PL at the very front of a squad (pretty much any squad), but regarding the value of stormies vs. scorps, An enhance warlock makes up the WS and I deficiencies of the guardians, so you are trading an large number of attacks and wounds for a small difference in S and a save that only matters in assaults (you also need to weigh up the value of an exarch vs the value of a warlock and 2 special weapons). I think that the stormies come out ahead by a mile here.
Wow, I didn't even realize this tactic as far as sticking the better armor save up front. I'll need to re-read the rules when I get home, but I would have though this still would have been bad as wounds are going to stack on the different armor save "group" making it too dangerous to do this on the pricey and important PL. Man, Archons with the 2++ got more annoying for this (Wyches).
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Man, Archons with the 2++ got more annoying for this (Wyches).
You think that is annoying. Try facing the same Archon inside a Seer Council with Fortune on it.
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Man, Archons with the 2++ got more annoying for this (Wyches).
You think that is annoying. Try facing the same Archon inside a Seer Council with Fortune on it.
situation just came up in the Dark Eldar 6th Edition topic. Archon isn't affected by said power.
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Thinking a bit more about this tactic and counter-tactics. In addition to zooming to the side as Lazerus suggested you could also try deliberately blocking your LOS to the annoying frontman with a vehicle or something so you can only shoot the (squishier) models you can see. If they accidentally put the guy at the front in cover then you can also focus fire other members of the squad. I think that its a really nice tactic (and I love that they've improved the desirability of Phoenix Lords), but there seems to be plenty of solutions so it doesn't seem overpowered to me.
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situation just came up in the Dark Eldar 6th Edition topic. Archon isn't affected by said power.
Good to know.
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Let me add to the fire here, especially those who loves close combat. We have weapons that are still great since they'll tear 2+ saves still, since these weapons have "Ignores Armour Saves".
As old is our codex, we're crutching into 6th till the new codex. We still have a few weapons for melee that is and should be considered as AP2 weapons.
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situation just came up in the Dark Eldar 6th Edition topic. Archon isn't affected by said power.
Good to know.
I dont believe this is true;
Fortune targets the "eldar unit" (page 28 of codex:eldar). An independant character becomes "part of the unit for all rules purpses" (BDB page 39).
Finally the relationship betweeen DE and Eldar on page 113 of BDB show both that the archon can join an Eldar unit and that "are counted as froendly units for the targeting of psychic powers".
I would maybe argue that, even though the last part says the archon can be targeted, because he/she isn't an 'eldar unit' he/she would still not be a valid target for the power. However, as part of an eldar unit that has been targeted by fortune, RAW supports that the archon would benefit also.
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Didn't have my book handy but I thought that it did work....not looking forward to seeing someone do it though....Shadowfie ld, Soul Trap & Huskblade.....ugh..
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The bottom line right now is that the number 1 issue facing Eldar players is going to be how to deal with multi-flyer armies that just zoom around all game. Our preponderance of rerolls will help a bit but we'll need to think of other consistent ways to do well against an army that brings 3+ flyers.
Anways, just some of my thoughts. Enjoy the forum and good luck in your games!
We have two dedicated anti Flyer units. The air superiority fighter, Nightwing and the Falcon hull AA tank, the Firestorm.
I feel that i need to point out that neither of those units are Codex units. They do not change the fact that there is nothing in our Codex which is geared towards taking out Flyers with any degree of reliability.
I would expect to see nightwings to make it into our next codex or even an FAQ when they are ready to sell the models directly. In the mean time war walkers with Scat Lasers and a Guide seer works reeeally well, just glance those marine transports into flaming ball of death :)
You can also purshase fortifications which have the skyfire rule, sure they are static but the range is rather good.
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[mod]Wishlisting and speculation posts moved to Rand Paul where such discussion belongs. Please don't engage in either in this thread.[/mod]
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Don't think moving that post was entirely necesary it was hardly wishlisting (maybe a little bit ;) ) I do think it is obvious that in the forthcoming codexes we will very likely see flyers and/or AA tanks options for all armies. In the mean time the newly released FW aeronautica will cover the gap between codex armies as they stand now before theri new codex is produced.
As for these Eldar flyers / AA tank not being "codex" units, I couldn care less. Legitimate rules as produced by GW exist for the these models therefore as far as Im concerned they are legit. As with all models / games you play with the consent of your opponant. I've yet to play a cry baby who won't play an army with FW models. then again I can't speak for everyone. The way I see it people who run Eldar armies and choose not to use these units are only putting yourself at a dissadvantage as far as I can see. Ofcourse there is the money question and I hardly expect people to rush out and splurge an incredible amount of money on three Nightwings :-\
I do have a comment on the Shodowfield, Fortume combo. I'm with Lazarus on this. As far as I can see the rule should be Ok. I think the overriding rule is stated in the allies section and that in the matrix. As close allies, all powers can be shared. Seems daft how the Warlord trait can boost the Ld of an allied unit but a psychic power can not. Also seems sill how a Farseer can Doom effect an enemy unit but cannot buff an allied one. If its the wording i/e/ the power effects an "Eldar unit" then you have to remember the codex was written before the allies rules wereand so you need to give some leeway. Either way until the issue gets FAQ'd I'm playing it as is.
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Something I just realized is the wording for turbo-boost has changed and how it effects Jet-seers in a biker unit. The extra boost is done during the shooting phase, and other voluntary actions AFTER that can not be done. Cast a start of turn power->move->boost->profit!
Unless I am reading it completely wrong, this is awesome. I found it silly that we could not cast powers that take place before any other actions just because you wanted to turbo-boost (an action that happens in a later "phase").
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I love my JetCouncil so much I was thinking of starting a thread purely to discuss new stuff they can do. The one you just stated was the big one I was thinking of, Part Ninja. I'm not sure if we can reserve and cast or not, but of so that would be another biggie.
Being able to combine our proper durability with incredible mobility should make them better than ever :)
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Pretty sure you can't reserve and cast any powers that need to be done at start like Fortune. However, it is easier to hide and protect the unit than it was before due to LOS and the way shooting works now.
Witchblades got a substantial nerf against AV but I'm not sure if Singing Spears are affcted in the same way. Don't have my book handy but thought that the codex entry had Singing Spears listed as S9 when thrown instead of the rules for the Witchblades. Crappy AP makes it less effective than it previously was in actually destroying a tank in one shot. However, several of these together could strip hull points quickly, assuming that wording is still good.
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Just read the codex, it's very clear Singing Spears are still at the same strength they always were.
One thing I have to draw attention to that people have been talking about is this: *in actual effect* Witchblades have not been nerfed at all. First of all, consider that you no longer have to roll on the table really to kill a vehicle with them so you need fewer glances/pens anyways - 3 of either will kill a vehicle, so you'll no longer have those situations where a squad of Warlocks gets 3 penetrations and 2 glances and because of bad rolls only blows off a weapon or two.
Secondly, whereas before you would have needed 4s or 6s to hit a vehicle running away from you, now at worst you'll only ever need a 3+ which means you will pile on many, many more hits (not to mention the possibility of Prescience if needed). This means you will flood any vehicle with hits - and you only need 50/50s to glance or better generally so you're still going to shred vehicles with ease. In many cases, statistically, you are actually going to do much better!
The only vehicles Witchblades can truly be said to be nerfed against are AV 14 ones because their odds of glancing/pen is way lower than before per individual hit, which is a fair enough trade. Those kinds of vehicles are still going to require specialized weaponry to deal with.
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The only vehicles Witchblades can truly be said to be nerfed against are AV 14 ones because their odds of glancing/pen is way lower than before per individual hit, which is a fair enough trade. Those kinds of vehicles are still going to require specialized weaponry to deal with.
which we Eldar have in abundance :))
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I second NightMoor... witchblades can still tear apart most vehicles, and in most councils there are atleast a singing spear or two, so really vehicles still don't stand a chance.
What I am most excited about, apart from the psychic powers (which I like and dislike), is the allied detachment... but I am also tremendously scared of it... Why you ask?
Pros (Dark Eldar): Really looking forward to using Incubi as a hard hitting unit... with psyker support can quite easily take on an equivalent size termie unit, and with challenges and the special rules for the Klaivex will make mincemeat of any termie sergeant, and quite a few ICs
: Webway portals... need I say more?
: access to flying stuff 8)
: scourges... for essentially the same price as Hawks, but can get upgrades for Haywire blasters, and are more survivable
: can get the required FOC stuff cheap and focus on what you need (or fit the required stuff into your pan... such as archon with webway portal)
etc etc
Pros (Tau): Have a problem with ranged armies? Now you can have some expert Tau shootyness, and use our Divination to vastly help (thinking Prescience, Perfect Timing, Forewarning and Foreboding)
etc
Cons: Other armies have acces to RoWar now, but RoWi can help us out.
etc
Cons: Now non-eldar armies have access to RoWar... That is kind of annoying
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How would you use a Webway portal? Only Dark Eldar units get to use it, and reserves that com through got nerfed by the no assault allowed FAQ.
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Cons: Other armies have acces to RoWar now, but RoWi can help us out.
etc
Cons: Now non-eldar armies have access to RoWar... That is kind of annoying
Wouldn't this mess with their own psykers for non BB allies?
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@ Grieva, I must have missed something that says only DE get to use it? Never played with them before... Can you direct me to where it says this?
And you may not get to assault, but what if you had a first squad of wraithguard go through? They are shooting, and can form cover for anything more breakable that comes through next... its tactics :P
@magenb, it would (unless they are Tau or DE), but if your not using any psykers of your own, it doesn't matter. Say Space Marines decide they want to use a Farseer instead of a Librarian... Get RoWar for psychic defence and use Farseer as a buffer on their units.
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@ Grieva, I must have missed something that says only DE get to use it? Never played with them before... Can you direct me to where it says this?
The Dark Eldar FAQ confirms this. I guess it comes under the same kind of rules as allies and transports.
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lol our short range firepower is too good for them to let us use that portal anyways.
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There goes my idea... but allies can really make up for what Eldar lack...
Don't like Fire Prisms? Take a Hammerhead! Need something tough in CC? Take some Incubi! Need a better (but still cheapish) HQ in CC? Take an Archon! Need some shooty footsloggers? Tau FireWarriors!
Get my point? 8)
The one major thing I'm annoyed about is the randomness of powers... Just doesn't make sense that Eldar, who meticulously plan everything, would start a battle not knowing what their most important unit/model can do...
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If you look at the fact that the Eldar have acess to only 2 of the 5 disciplines and that Chaos Daemons, which are made from the Warp have acess to none, I would think that it would not be too hard to imagine that these races will get thier own psychic lists in their new codex.
Until then we still have access to the origional powers in the current codex.
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There is that... Definately there will be our own powers in the new codex... its just annoying ::)
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Just looking through the FW FAQ on their psykers, Bel Annath from IA11 has access to 3 disciplines not 2 like regular Farseers. I might try him out as his template weapon is awesome. Shame he doesn't have Warding however.
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The worst thing about Bel Annath is that he prevents you from having other farseers, so you can't have any runes of warding then......
Also of note is the fact that besides the aura, special template attack, and increases in WS and attacks, he is about 155pts as a normal farseer, but only has 1 of the really effective farseer powers. He almost relies on using the BRB disciplines, which can be good, though its sad that the primaris for pyromancy is basically a worse version of the template attack that comes standard in his profile.
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Previously I wouldn't have even considered using him due to his no warding, no other farseers, and the powers he knew. Now however I can change those powers I'll be trying him out in some fun one off games. I think it's cool he's somewhat combat orientated.
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hi guys, been some time since my craftworlders have come out of their boxes (thanks to 8th edition wfb and 6th ed dark eldar as well as a stack of repainting and repairs to do!)
though i've been reading through a few things and thinking how eldar would fare now in 6th.
it looks like to me:
autarchs got better for CC challenges/precision shooting
farseers became even more awesome for psychic defense, access to new powers is nice though generating mechanism is a bit clunky
warlocks now become amazing as a defensive unit; try charging through a wall of heavy flamers, i dare ya!!!
out of our elites:
scorps are about the same, though the fist became more valuable
banshees took a big hit now vs 2+ saves
dragons became overkill against most vehicles and godlike against av14 (not that they struggled before tbh)
w.guard seem pretty much the same
harlies got a big boost with stealth/shrouded and ignoring terrain rules. these guys can be advacning on the enemy with a 2-4+ cover save. rending rocks now as the only AP2 option against TEQ. think these will be making an appearance in more lists when wwp are brought in with the new book (certainly going in my wwp dark eldar!!)
out of our troops:
avengers are the staples they always were, but the power weapon option, with shimmershield and defend seems a lot more useful now you can get +S versions of power weapons.
these guys desperately need grenades for the next edition though.
rangers/pathfinders became the snipers they were always meant to be. need that heavy flamer dead? these are the guys to do it!
guardians are still cack, at least they are cheap! flamers options are nice though for a more defensive unit.
jbikes are awesomely fast now, as well as resilient. i like these a lot and cant wait for the new models
out of our fast attack:
shining spears seem to have gotten a mild boost thanks to skilled rider. still seem dependent on the jetbike autarch for the extra attacks and grenades though.
spiders are still good, got a boost against vehicles and could make a decent hit n run unit for a power spear equipped autarch.
hawks are still weird. better vs vehicles but would rather have the spiders tbh
vypers are a bit better now thanks to the squadron rules, but super squishy thanks to open topped, 2 hp and abundance of ap2 shooting.
heavy support:
weapon batteries appear to be a mixed bunch, d-cannon are much better thanks to HP and ap2, vibro now suck thanks to HP (i read they only ever cause a single glance?), shadow weaver seems a bit daft use of points when you could take a nightspinner instead? artillery rules much better vs shooting
reapers should get more use now cover is only 5+ and transports are much weaker choices. still uber expensive though!
wraithlord, poor wraithlord. not only are you bloody expensive, but you can now be stickied with grenades or fled from if they cant actually hurt you. it doesnt benefit anything from the new smash rules either.
war walkers are pretty cool still, best AA option by a long stretch, especially with guide! bye bye void ravens.
spinners, long range AI, in an era of more infantry. 'nuff said.
falcon relied on only being glanced, stones and holofields to stay alive. can see this going down quickly now.
fire prism became better at popping tanks, is still v.good AI, but less survivable. take two at all times i guess!
wave serpents for me always relied on being glanced, stones and on holofields for survival. now with HP, i think these are going to go down a lot quicker.
after playing DE for a few months, i cringe at the point costs for CWE, the codex is really showing its ace now i guess.
how have you found 6th has changed your builds?
what are your experiences with the craftworlders? do they still work as intended?
cheers!
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I would like to say one thing, I think it is more than just a small boost that the Shining Spears got from Skilled Rider. Add a farseer with Fortune and Guide into the unit and you have a hammer unit that is almost as resilient as the seer council, hits harder, and won't get bogged down in combat thanks to hit and run.
The bonus to the jink save and the boost you get for terrain, in addition to the speed of the Eldar Jetbike... you can reach out and hit a key unit at your leisure with little fear of reprisals. I watched an Eldar player use a full squad with exarch and farseer just rip into the flank of a guard army and roll them with just that unit.
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Today I was playing a 1250pts game with a not too optimised list and had two Farseers (Eldrad and one on a Jetbike) against an allied squad of 750pts Grey Knights and 500pts Imperial Guard. I decided to keep Eldrad's Eldar powers and exchange the Farseer's with the new Divination spells. I got Forwarning, Misfortune and exchanged Forbodin for Prescience.
I cannot express how awesome some combinations are. Not totally sure if I could do all of them but cannot find anything that says I cannot.
First of all - Doom and Misfortune means dead Terminators. Seriously... I even had Prescience on the firing squad. It was ridiculous.
Next - 3 War Walkers with Fortune and Forwarning... they were in the middle of the table on turn two and my opponents (different people controlled the two allied detachments) were just discouraged to shoot at them. I am not even sure if it is legal to cast Forwarning on Walker squadrons but couldn't find anything that prohibited it.
Casting Prescience on 12" is a big deal. It is so much better then Guide.
Against Marine type units and with Eldar superior fire power Misfortune is much better than Doom. You cannot count you will get it, but if you buy three powers for your seer you will get something good for sure. And having one of your farseers keep his usual powers gives the much needed certainty that you will have at least half of the needed spells.
I don't know if I was just lucky to get maybe the best spells in the Divination discipline, but with three spells you always have at least 50% chance to get the one you need, and when you don't get something useful Prescience is very good too. The support from the combination of Divination and Eldar powers is just devastating to the opponent.
PS. This is the actual list if someone is interested:
Eldrad Ulthran - 210pts.
Farseer - 178pts.
Singing Spear, Spirit Stones, Runes of Witnessing, Guide, Eldritch Storm, Mind War, Eldar Jetbike
Dire Avengers (10) - 152pts.
Exarch, Second shuriken catapult, Bladestorm
Guardian jetbike squadron (3) - 76pts.
Shuriken cannon
Guardian jetbike squadron (3) - 76pts.
Shuriken cannon
Fire Dragons (6) - 116pts.
Exarch, Firepike
Wave Serpent dedicated to Fire Dragons - 125pts.
Shuriken cannon, Twin-linked scatter lasers
Warp Spiders (5) - 137pts.
Exarch, Additional Death spinner, Power blades
War Walker Squadron (3) - 180pts.
Two Scatter lasers each
The mission was "Dawn of War - The Emperor’s Will". I got first blood, line breaker and both objectives. My opponents got no points. The game was devastating.
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Personally I've been thinking about Tau Allies a decent amount.
We can ally with Commander Farsight, which lets us get what once was a large group of overpriced crisis suits.
Now these crisis suits are characters, and therefore all have precision shots and look out sir.
I'm thinking of this kind of set up:
(170) Farsight
(401) 7 Crisis Shas'Vre, 7 twin-linked flamers, 7 missile pods, 7 drone controllers
or
(420) 7 Crisis Shas'Vre, 7 burst cannons, 7 missile pods, 7 multi-trackers, hard wired drone controllers (maybe, if you want to add some gun drones)
So here you have a rather expensive unit, but one unit is nearly impervious to assaults, while the other deals out an amazing amount of shots that can pick off important targets within units.
Talking about the burst cannon/missile pod unit, each suit gets 5 shots. Overall you have 35 shots. Now for some mathhammer.
-note that not taking the balistic skill upgrade for the suits saves points and increases the number of precision shots by maximizing rerolls.
35 Shots:
17.5 hits
5.83 of those hits are precision shots
then you reroll all the misses if you used prescience
So you roll 17.5 dice, and get:
8.75 total hits
2.9 precision shots
So you should get
26.25 total hits
8.73 precision shots
possibly enough to ruin the unit you shoot at. Also then imagine if you cast misfortune, and doom an enemy....and you are going to have dealt a ton of damage.
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Personally I've been thinking about Tau Allies a decent amount.
We can ally with Commander Farsight, which lets us get what once was a large group of overpriced crisis suits.
Now these crisis suits are characters, and therefore all have precision shots and look out sir.
I'm thinking of this kind of set up:
(170) Farsight
(401) 7 Crisis Shas'Vre, 7 twin-linked flamers, 7 missile pods, 7 drone controllers
or
(420) 7 Crisis Shas'Vre, 7 burst cannons, 7 missile pods, 7 multi-trackers, hard wired drone controllers (maybe, if you want to add some gun drones)
So here you have a rather expensive unit, but one unit is nearly impervious to assaults, while the other deals out an amazing amount of shots that can pick off important targets within units.
Talking about the burst cannon/missile pod unit, each suit gets 5 shots. Overall you have 35 shots. Now for some mathhammer.
-note that not taking the balistic skill upgrade for the suits saves points and increases the number of precision shots by maximizing rerolls.
35 Shots:
17.5 hits
5.83 of those hits are precision shots
then you reroll all the misses if you used prescience
So you roll 17.5 dice, and get:
8.75 total hits
2.9 precision shots
So you should get
26.25 total hits
8.73 precision shots
possibly enough to ruin the unit you shoot at. Also then imagine if you cast misfortune, and doom an enemy....and you are going to have dealt a ton of damage.
I can dig it, means taking a fortune, guide jetseer aswell. For 2500 point games, Farsight and then a jetseer, plus the burst cannon + MissilePod Crisis suit body guard for Farsight. Eldard casting Forwarning will help too.
let me just check the points for that:
Farsight = xxx
Farseer, Jetbike, Spirit Stones, Runes of Warding, Fortune, Guide = 173
Shas'vre, burst cannon, cyclic ion blaster, multi-tracker, 2 Gun Drones
Shas'vre, burst cannon, missile pod, multi-tracker, 2 Gun Drones
Shas'vre, burst cannon, missile pod, multi-tracker, 2 Gun Drones
Shas'vre, burst cannon, missile pod, multi-tracker, 2 Gun Drones
Shas'vre, burst cannon, missile pod, multi-tracker, 2 Gun Drones
Shas'vre, burst cannon, missile pod, multi-tracker, 2 Gun Drones
Shas'vre, burst cannon, missile pod, multi-tracker, 2 Gun Drones = 563
+ Eldrad = xxx (somewhere near by)
___________________ ___________________ ___________________ ____
1116
more than 2/5 of your army total in 2500 points, it creates a pseudo seer council, with FIRE POWA!
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I really hate to burst your bubble but tau crisis suit bodyguards where errated to be only be infantry (jet pack), no character in there. So farsight is a character, his bodyguards aren't. It is in the tau FAQ online here (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2420320a_Tau_Empire_6th_Ed_V1.pdf)
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I really hate to burst your bubble but tau crisis suit bodyguards where errated to be only be infantry (jet pack), no character in there. So farsight is a character, his bodyguards aren't. It is in the tau FAQ online here (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2420320a_Tau_Empire_6th_Ed_V1.pdf)
Not bursting any bubble on my part. Guided / Fortuned Farsight body guard is still painful and tough to take down when properly supported.
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If I understand correctly the spears hit harder now on the charge as well without the Autarch or exarch, correct? You'd still need the Exarch for withdraw if you wanted to keep the unit active on more than one strike, but I'd think it might now be feasible to just drop a squad of three on the table, unattended, hit em with fortune to send em up as a fairly inexpensive distraction, and if they do hit, they'll be doing a more reasonable amount of damage than in the past.
My 6th-fu is weak though, but I've so many hopes for my poor shining spears... 5th was not too good to them for me :/
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weapon batteries appear to be a mixed bunch, d-cannon are much better thanks to HP and ap2, vibro now suck thanks to HP (i read they only ever cause a single glance?), shadow weaver seems a bit daft use of points when you could take a nightspinner instead? artillery rules much better vs shooting
Vibro cannons are outstanding now. Glancing hits strip Hull points so thus are much more effective than glances in 5th generally were, if you line up more than one vehicle for a single shot you are rocking. Just imagine 3x Vibro batteries guaranteeing a dead vehicle every turn barring cover saves. Plus, the line from a Vibro hits flyers.
wraithlord, poor wraithlord. not only are you bloody expensive, but you can now be stickied with grenades or fled from if they cant actually hurt you. it doesnt benefit anything from the new smash rules either.
This was jarring. I think you need to actually play with a Wraithlord before judging it, since Wraithlords got an enormous boost in the new edition. Hammer of Wrath for automatic penetrations? Challenges? Precision strikes/shots? Fear? Wall of Death? I've barely lost a game out of 15 when using Wraithlords. Take another look before you judge them.
spinners, long range AI, in an era of more infantry. 'nuff said.
I love my 'Spinner but the nerfing of dangerous terrain damage hurts the 'Spinner's killiness squarely. It'll still be good as a slowdown machine.
falcon relied on only being glanced, stones and holofields to stay alive. can see this going down quickly now.
wave serpents for me always relied on being glanced, stones and on holofields for survival. now with HP, i think these are going to go down a lot quicker.
All vehicles are more consistently killable by glancing/pentrating and with the savings of holofields the Falcon becomes much cheaper while still gaining solid defenses with the new Jink rule. Wave Serpents never had Holofields anyways and their turret guns make them naturally decent against Flyers. Same survivability trade-off that all vehicles have had to make, but of course they gain Jink.
I'm finding Eldar gained new zest in 6th edition and my many battle reports are there to prove it. I would even go so far as to say that I feel everything in the codex is now playable as a result of 6th, and that's a hefty statement given how pricey everything already is compared to newer books.
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This was jarring. I think you need to actually play with a Wraithlord before judging it, since Wraithlords got an enormous boost in the new edition. Hammer of Wrath for automatic penetrations? Challenges? Precision strikes/shots? Fear? Wall of Death? I've barely lost a game out of 15 when using Wraithlords. Take another look before you judge them.
I have had the complete opposite exerience with Wraithlords in 6th. In 10 games so far, the 4 i took a Wraithlord i lost, and rather badly. Snap Shots means that there are enevitably more heavy weapons comming its way, Smash (vs the old MC rules) means he is less likely to damage vehicles, even if he hits with his Hammer of Wrath, and the mediocre I means he's as likely to strike first as he is last, giving you about a 50% chance of being grenaded before killing anything. Wall of death is cool, yes, and i've had some success with it, but my Wraithlord always dies without making any real impact. Maybe it's the fact most of my opponents have high LD, so Fear is just as useless as Warshout...
If I understand correctly the spears hit harder now on the charge as well without the Autarch or exarch, correct? You'd still need the Exarch for withdraw if you wanted to keep the unit active on more than one strike, but I'd think it might now be feasible to just drop a squad of three on the table, unattended, hit em with fortune to send em up as a fairly inexpensive distraction, and if they do hit, they'll be doing a more reasonable amount of damage than in the past.
My 6th-fu is weak though, but I've so many hopes for my poor shining spears... 5th was not too good to them for me :/
Spears are moderately better. The increased speed of Jetbikes means you can get them just about anywhere they need to be, Jink makes them a touch more durable, and Hammer of Wrath gives them an extra nerd-slap to get them started on the charge.
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I have a whole host of ideas about 6th, and I'm busy putting them together but I think one really overlooked unit is Vypers. The rules changes for squadrons allow them to be fielded relatively compactly, and they could now be fielded in a mech/JetBike army in large numbers. I feel like the low HP doesn't do much against them as they usually die in one or two hits anyway. But with jink you at least have a shot at surviving a stray las cannon blast. But most importantly they can be fielded with double shurricanons and use them both at speed for the same price as a SL. This means they have great mobility and cheap War Walker like firepower. It's something I'll be looking in to.
Something to consider about shining spears that just occurred to me in reading previous posts: imagine two farseers on bikes with singing spears, one with prescience and some other power and one with Fortune/Doom. Exarch with the works. Now imagine driving up to a transport and glancing the passengers out if it and giving them a good old assault in the face. I haven't run the numbers but I suspect this would work consistently so long as you add prescience. This works in 6th of course due to HP. You could also do a farseer and Autarch with fusion gun...but I find two seers makes a more Killy squad than one.
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The Eldar army will struggle against air units. Currently we have no skyfire outside of fortifications or allies.
I could have sworn missile launchers could be fired as AA now, you fire the same missile (krak) as a marine and they get AA
Edit: slight off topic, but I see plenty of people talking about how the vehicles in general got nerfed with hull points and being glanced to death...all I have to say that is now you know how your dark cousins feel :P
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Allies DE
The Baron adds stuff clearly spelled out in the Codex
Wyches with haywires and a venom
Talos with more stuff in the Codex attacks.
Now you can do monstrous creatures and still field your WW. with the Avatar.
Firedragon exarch on the quad gun. Kill the sniper scouts first.
[gmod]If it's in the Codex you don't need to spell it out in great and glorious detail. We may read it for ourselves.[/gmod]
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The Eldar army will struggle against air units. Currently we have no skyfire outside of fortifications or allies.
I could have sworn missile launchers could be fired as AA now, you fire the same missile (krak) as a marine and they get AA
Edit: slight off topic, but I see plenty of people talking about how the vehicles in general got nerfed with hull points and being glanced to death...all I have to say that is now you know how your dark cousins feel :P
There is a 'flak missile' in the 6E rulebook that has skyfire, but there is currently no army able to take it. I imagine that as 6E codexes come out, the missile launchers that could previously shoot frag and krak will also be able to shoot flak (or maybe they will be able to pay points to upgrade to it).
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The Eldar army will struggle against air units. Currently we have no skyfire outside of fortifications or allies.
I could have sworn missile launchers could be fired as AA now, you fire the same missile (krak) as a marine and they get AA
Edit: slight off topic, but I see plenty of people talking about how the vehicles in general got nerfed with hull points and being glanced to death...all I have to say that is now you know how your dark cousins feel :P
There is a 'flak missile' in the 6E rulebook that has skyfire, but there is currently no army able to take it. I imagine that as 6E codexes come out, the missile launchers that could previously shoot frag and krak will also be able to shoot flak (or maybe they will be able to pay points to upgrade to it).
I see now, that must have been where my confusion came in. We all thought it just ended up as an alternate firing method for missile launchers (you don't have to pay extra to fire frag/krak, you start with both options) so we assumed hydra just added on played it as such. You're right though and it probably is something that will get added later, but I figure we'll just keep playing it like we have been at our stores since for most armies right now a missile launcher would be their only form of AA
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Can anyone explain to me what is meant by Stacking RoWard? I seriously don't understand.
Alright so here's something to ponder...Look at page 51. Rules for no CC weapon listed. Then rules for pistols. This effects Rangers/Pathfinders and the Autarch.
So I want to say this about the CC units as they used to make up my primary force:
Scorpions: Not actually really weaker the way I run them. I'm going to be including a second seer in their midst which will mean the following build for them:
Eldrad (normal powers), thus Fortune and Doom and perhaps Eldritch Storm to add to the shooting fun.
Farseer, cheepy powers swapped for Divination and a spear. Prescience and a random Divination spell. This guides my Scorps in CC and shooting.
Scorpions, just add a biting blade in case I want to throw the exarch into a challenge. Keep the claw for the Shuriken catapult and its awesomness.
Wave serpent with Shuricannons.
So I take this unit, rush up to the front line, hop out. Everything is Guided, Fortuned and the enemy is Doomed. Perhaps I have something awesome as my random Divination power. Now 8 scorpions fire their Pistols, Farseer throws his spear. Eldrad unloads Eldritch Storm. 1 Scorpion throws a Plasma grenade and the Exarch has two re-rollable shots with opportunities for precision strike.
Thanks to the re-rolls everywhere that is actually some very effective firepower. And, speaking form many battles of experience, fortuned scorps are incredibly durable so long as they aren't hit with a large ammount of low AP stuff. Thus they can survive the enemy turn so as to fight their way into CC the next turn.
Banshees: That is where banshees fail, for me, they will never ever survive enemy shooting to make it into the assault phase. After which why would I bother any way with APx they no longer have a hope in face against the only thing they were better at than Scorps (termies). Now my Scorpion murder brigade is the only unit i'll bother fielding. In fact to fill their gap in my forces I am swapping them out for Fire Dragons.
to me one of the most astonishing changes is the effectiveness of our troops. Jetbikes, Pathfinders and DAs are all either amazingly better or slightly better. One thing to consider is the DA exarch can have whatever PW he wants. Though the Spear is probably best. And Guardians are at least marginally better thanks to overwatch. Thanks to the fearless buffs running a Avatar Orbital Pattern with guardians or whatever else is viable again.
Spears are starting to really look good to me too. Never mind attacking terminators, just use your mobility to keep your army away has always been my motto. Spears and some Farseers could pop open a can in shooting and then charge the contents. Yummy! With a little Synergistic prepping of the can to be popped this could be done reliably. Perhaps something like Vibro Cannons?
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Can anyone explain to me what is meant by Stacking RoWard? I seriously don't understand.
The Eldar FAQ https://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2420312a_Eldar_6th_Ed_V1.pdf (https://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2420312a_Eldar_6th_Ed_V1.pdf)
The FAQ changes the Runes of Warding rules to be able to stack.....if you haven't read the Eldar FAQ you really should since it has a lot of relevant rulings both from 5th edition and 6th edition.
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Sorry for being slow, but I guess that means that if you have 2 RoWar, your opponent has to roll 2 extra dice? That is incredibly mean... ;D
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it is incredibly mean, but also incredibly hilarious. I myself want to field a list with 2 detachments, 4 farseers, all with Row, 6 die sounds very nice to me :). That said, probably not worth it... but HILARIOUS!!!
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I have seen the FAQ but I guess I'm just blind..that is...holy face..I'll never be able to justify this to my friends...
To stay on task I've been thinking about our vehicles and i think as I said before Vypers remain worth it. Wave Serpents are, for me, only ever supposed to survive 2 turns anyway so they feel unchanged. I'll be replacing my now entirely too frail Falcons with bare bones Night Spinners.
Oh and Star Engines...do they stack with Flat Out? Seems like not. However it also seems if one buys them they could use them instead of moving flat out thus avoiding the immobized = wrecked problem though reducing the Jink save.
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it is incredibly mean, but also incredibly hilarious. I myself want to field a list with 2 detachments, 4 farseers, all with Row, 6 die sounds very nice to me :). That said, probably not worth it... but HILARIOUS!!!
Stay away from my IG/BA Psyker Spam list!
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Spears are moderately better. The increased speed of Jetbikes means you can get them just about anywhere they need to be, Jink makes them a touch more durable, and Hammer of Wrath gives them an extra nerd-slap to get them started on the charge.
You are taking into consideration the Exarch with Skilled Rider and what that does for the unit, right? That goes from a "touch" more durable to "rivaling the seer council for durability."
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Can anyone explain to me what is meant by Stacking RoWard? I seriously don't understand.
The Eldar FAQ http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2420312a_Eldar_6th_Ed_V1.pdf (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2420312a_Eldar_6th_Ed_V1.pdf)
The FAQ changes the Runes of Warding rules to be able to stack.....if you haven't read the Eldar FAQ you really should since it has a lot of relevant rulings both from 5th edition and 6th edition.
Okay, so I'm just starting to get into the 6th edition thing and dealing with an excuciating amount of catch-up. Saw the above-referenced point on RoW stacking, read the FAQ, don't catch where in there it says they stack. Am I missing something?
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Can anyone explain to me what is meant by Stacking RoWard? I seriously don't understand.
The Eldar FAQ http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2420312a_Eldar_6th_Ed_V1.pdf (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2420312a_Eldar_6th_Ed_V1.pdf)
The FAQ changes the Runes of Warding rules to be able to stack.....if you haven't read the Eldar FAQ you really should since it has a lot of relevant rulings both from 5th edition and 6th edition.
Okay, so I'm just starting to get into the 6th edition thing and dealing with an excuciating amount of catch-up. Saw the above-referenced point on RoW stacking, read the FAQ, don't catch where in there it says they stack. Am I missing something?
The runes of warding simply has a +1 to it. If you have 2 its +1 +1, if you have 3 its +1 +1 +1 etc. The fact that it doesn't say that it doesn't stack, means that it can. Much like stat modifiers, Wyches for Dark Eldar with +1 S drug and Furious charge, because it doesn't state that the Strength can't stack both effects are present.
Further more consider the following.
Eldar Farseer Runes of Witnessing Casting a Psychic Power.
Enemy Farseer with runes of Warding.
What happens? Well both of them add a die, and then give further rules, so in this case the RoWit Farseer uses 4 dice discarding the highest one.
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The runes of warding simply has a +1 to it. If you have 2 its +1 +1, if you have 3 its +1 +1 +1 etc. The fact that it doesn't say that it doesn't stack, means that it can. Much like stat modifiers, Wyches for Dark Eldar with +1 S drug and Furious charge, because it doesn't state that the Strength can't stack both effects are present.
Further more consider the following.
Eldar Farseer Runes of Witnessing Casting a Psychic Power.
Enemy Farseer with runes of Warding.
What happens? Well both of them add a die, and then give further rules, so in this case the RoWit Farseer uses 4 dice discarding the highest one.
Thanks for explaining, I had the same question. Makes perfect sense.
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Played my first serious game of 6th last night and LOVED it!
The divination powers are great. Prescience is a good fall back spell. My question was regarding the spell Misfortune. I got it randomly and omigosh - so good! I have guide on my farseer that I trade in for a book power, so if I get a Divination spell I don't love I can fallback to Prescience(rule book version of guide).
Here's my question - Can my Farseer cast spells that target enemy units with spells like Misfortune from inside a falcon? If I'm reading the BDB right anytime a psyched targets another players unit with a rule book power there has to be LoS. I might just stick with Doom. Idk need to play more.
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Well I for one am very happy with the new psychic system. Two farseers with 10 Warlocks, give the Warlocks Physic Scream and yes, you can expect to slay large numbers of your opponents, as I found out earlier. I was killing 2 marine squads per turn (after turn 3). Pluse the fact that Warlocks dont need to roll for their powers. An old saying of mine is "The less dice you have to roll the better"
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Well I for one am very happy with the new psychic system. Two farseers with 10 Warlocks, give the Warlocks Physic Scream and yes, you can expect to slay large numbers of your opponents, as I found out earlier. I was killing 2 marine squads per turn (after turn 3). Pluse the fact that Warlocks dont need to roll for their powers. An old saying of mine is "The less dice you have to roll the better"
I was under (the perhapse erroronious, since the FAQ won't load for me to check...) that Warlocks were not included in the ability to take either Codex powers OR new Psychic powers. As such, Warlocks are still limited to their codex powers, and thus cannot take Psychic Scream. I do know that Warlocks are considered Mastery Level 0, meaning they wouldn't have the Warp Charges to expend to use Psychic Scream in the first place anyway.
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Well I for one am very happy with the new psychic system. Two farseers with 10 Warlocks, give the Warlocks Physic Scream and yes, you can expect to slay large numbers of your opponents, as I found out earlier. I was killing 2 marine squads per turn (after turn 3). Pluse the fact that Warlocks dont need to roll for their powers. An old saying of mine is "The less dice you have to roll the better"
Warlocks cannot take the BRB powers, and they do not have a mastery level to cast the BRB powers even if they could.
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Here's my question - Can my Farseer cast spells that target enemy units with spells like Misfortune from inside a falcon? If I'm reading the BDB right anytime a psyched targets another players unit with a rule book power there has to be LoS. I might just stick with Doom. Idk need to play more.
The way the rules are now written, you can't even use Doom from within your transport. It explicitly states it can't be done, exception is a shooting phase power being used out of a fire point though.
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Can anyone explain to me what is meant by Stacking RoWard? I seriously don't understand.
The Eldar FAQ http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2420312a_Eldar_6th_Ed_V1.pdf (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2420312a_Eldar_6th_Ed_V1.pdf)
The FAQ changes the Runes of Warding rules to be able to stack.....if you haven't read the Eldar FAQ you really should since it has a lot of relevant rulings both from 5th edition and 6th edition.
Okay, so I'm just starting to get into the 6th edition thing and dealing with an excuciating amount of catch-up. Saw the above-referenced point on RoW stacking, read the FAQ, don't catch where in there it says they stack. Am I missing something?
The runes of warding simply has a +1 to it. If you have 2 its +1 +1, if you have 3 its +1 +1 +1 etc. The fact that it doesn't say that it doesn't stack, means that it can. Much like stat modifiers, Wyches for Dark Eldar with +1 S drug and Furious charge, because it doesn't state that the Strength can't stack both effects are present.
Further more consider the following.
Eldar Farseer Runes of Witnessing Casting a Psychic Power.
Enemy Farseer with runes of Warding.
What happens? Well both of them add a die, and then give further rules, so in this case the RoWit Farseer uses 4 dice discarding the highest one.
Actually the more terrifying question would be if what if there was 2 eldar players facing off against each other with 4 farseers each.
Would that mean that each farseer rolls 7 dice?
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The runes of warding simply has a +1 to it. <snip>
Son of a be-atch! I read and re-read the damned codex looking at the wording for Runes of Warding, wondering how the hell another farseers forcing a 3D6 roll would make any sense..... and then went back to the FAQ. Sputtered coffee out of my nose; that was a subtle if not important change!
;francois
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Actually the more terrifying question would be if what if there was 2 eldar players facing off against each other with 4 farseers each.
Would that mean that each farseer rolls 7 dice?
If those farseers had Runes of Witnessing when casting then yes, they would roll 7 dice.
The runes of warding simply has a +1 to it. <snip>
Son of a be-atch! I read and re-read the damned codex looking at the wording for Runes of Warding, wondering how the hell another farseers forcing a 3D6 roll would make any sense..... and then went back to the FAQ. Sputtered coffee out of my nose; that was a subtle if not important change!
;francois
Yes, the Errata for Eldar is the middle finger to 6th edition.
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Actually the more terrifying question would be if what if there was 2 eldar players facing off against each other with 4 farseers each.
Would that mean that each farseer rolls 7 dice?
If those farseers had Runes of Witnessing when casting then yes, they would roll 7 dice.
Technically you're right. In reality they would roll 0 dice because no-one in their right mind would attempt psychic powers under those conditions because it's pretty much auto-perils! ;)
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Here's my question - Can my Farseer cast spells that target enemy units with spells like Misfortune from inside a falcon? If I'm reading the BDB right anytime a psyched targets another players unit with a rule book power there has to be LoS. I might just stick with Doom. Idk need to play more.
The way the rules are now written, you can't even use Doom from within your transport. It explicitly states it can't be done, exception is a shooting phase power being used out of a fire point though.
Actually we're allowing Eldar powers to be cast from within vehicles and without line of sight, as it was in 5th. The reasons are that:
- the codex states that [...] and do not require the Eldar psyker to have a line of sight to target. (see p. 28, Farseer psychic powers)
-> powers used in the shooting phase are exceptions and that's already written in their description
We handle codex rules above rulebook rules.
- most Eldar blessings can only be cast on Eldar units (small drawback when using allies)
- Eldar blessings have a low range
So you have to decide between the shiny new rulebook powers and live with the requirement of needing line of sight (although the larger range of Prescience compared to Guide can really compensate for that very much) or you stick with the old powers and live with the restrictions from above.
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Here's my question - Can my Farseer cast spells that target enemy units with spells like Misfortune from inside a falcon? If I'm reading the BDB right anytime a psyched targets another players unit with a rule book power there has to be LoS. I might just stick with Doom. Idk need to play more.
The way the rules are now written, you can't even use Doom from within your transport. It explicitly states it can't be done, exception is a shooting phase power being used out of a fire point though.
Actually we're allowing Eldar powers to be cast from within vehicles and without line of sight, as it was in 5th. The reasons are that:
- the codex states that [...] and do not require the Eldar psycher to have a line of sight to target. (see p. 28, Farseer psychic powers)
-> powers used in the shooting phase are exceptions and that's already written in their description
We handle codex rules above rulebook rules.
- most Eldar blessings can only be cast on Eldar units (small drawback when using allies)
- Eldar blessings have a low range
So you have to decide between the shiny new rulebook powers and live with the requirement of needing line of sight (although the larger range of Prescience compared to Guide can really compensate for that very much) or you stick with the old powers and live with the restrictions from above.
Actually, and now I am paraphrasing the start of page 28 in the eldar codex: -Unless otherwise noted, farseer psychic powers work as described in the BFB, are used at the start of the eldar turn and do not require the eldar psyker to have LoS.
Compare this to BFB page 67 which says psykers need LoS unless otherwise stated, this means that it's a clear conflict and "codex > BFB" and "eldar psyker > psyker" as it's more specific.
This means no LoS required for any farseer wether taking powers from codex or BFB, as the powers there do not say they do.
Back on topic... I find Eldar in 6th edition to do quite well with the old codex, however we have not seen any 6th ed codexes yet, which I think will beat the crap out of most of the existing codexes once they arrive. 5 man units of hawks are now awesome, except in KP missions where they are basically only orbital bombardment, but in 1 mission they are scoring, just deep strike them onto objectives. don't forget the ongoing reserves rule, which allows them to arrive automatically from turn 2+.
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Actually, and now I am paraphrasing the start of page 28 in the eldar codex: -Unless otherwise noted, farseer psychic powers work as described in the BFB, are used at the start of the eldar turn and do not require the eldar psyker to have LoS.
Compare this to BFB page 67 which says psykers need LoS unless otherwise stated, this means that it's a clear conflict and "codex > BFB" and "eldar psyker > psyker" as it's more specific.
This means no LoS required for any farseer wether taking powers from codex or BFB, as the powers there do not say they do.
allows them to arrive automatically from turn 2+.
I see what you did there, very clever Mr Bond ¬_¬ Malidiction and Blessing Powers without line of sight is crafty Eldar trickery at its finest.
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Can anyone explain to me what is meant by Stacking RoWard? I seriously don't understand.
The Eldar FAQ http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2420312a_Eldar_6th_Ed_V1.pdf (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2420312a_Eldar_6th_Ed_V1.pdf)
The FAQ changes the Runes of Warding rules to be able to stack.....if you haven't read the Eldar FAQ you really should since it has a lot of relevant rulings both from 5th edition and 6th edition.
Okay, so I'm just starting to get into the 6th edition thing and dealing with an excuciating amount of catch-up. Saw the above-referenced point on RoW stacking, read the FAQ, don't catch where in there it says they stack. Am I missing something?
The runes of warding simply has a +1 to it. If you have 2 its +1 +1, if you have 3 its +1 +1 +1 etc. The fact that it doesn't say that it doesn't stack, means that it can. Much like stat modifiers, Wyches for Dark Eldar with +1 S drug and Furious charge, because it doesn't state that the Strength can't stack both effects are present.
Further more consider the following.
Eldar Farseer Runes of Witnessing Casting a Psychic Power.
Enemy Farseer with runes of Warding.
What happens? Well both of them add a die, and then give further rules, so in this case the RoWit Farseer uses 4 dice discarding the highest one.
Actually the more terrifying question would be if what if there was 2 eldar players facing off against each other with 4 farseers each.
Would that mean that each farseer rolls 7 dice?
Quick silly question?
How to you get 4 Farseer in your army? The FOC only allows two at the most. Allied detachments must be from a different codex.
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@Galderon
I would assume that is just a missprint, and he means 2 farseers on each side.
Or, they are playing a larger than 2k game, using 2 force org charts, and both Eldar players have decided to use 4 farseers.
Too much madness for me! *throws myself into a giant pit*
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@Galderon
I would assume that is just a missprint, and he means 2 farseers on each side.
Or, they are playing a larger than 2k game, using 2 force org charts, and both Eldar players have decided to use 4 farseers.
Too much madness for me! *throws myself into a giant pit*
2000 points games are not an unusual thing and 4 Farseers is something many Eldar players have thought about. So it's more a question if two Eldar players would take more than two Runes of Warding and would play against each other. Doesn't seem too far fetched to me. The hardest part here seems to be finding two Eldar players and making them play against each other.
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@Galderon
I would assume that is just a missprint, and he means 2 farseers on each side.
Or, they are playing a larger than 2k game, using 2 force org charts, and both Eldar players have decided to use 4 farseers.
Too much madness for me! *throws myself into a giant pit*
Rats guts - when I read their post I was so excited cos I though I missed something.
[returns to crystal chambers to see what else can be squeesed out of the new rules]
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Actually, and now I am paraphrasing the start of page 28 in the eldar codex: -Unless otherwise noted, farseer psychic powers work as described in the BFB, are used at the start of the eldar turn and do not require the eldar psyker to have LoS.
Compare this to BFB page 67 which says psykers need LoS unless otherwise stated, this means that it's a clear conflict and "codex > BFB" and "eldar psyker > psyker" as it's more specific.
This means no LoS required for any farseer wether taking powers from codex or BFB, as the powers there do not say they do.
Wait, are we sure that works? I just re-read the codex section on farseer powers adn it specifically states that no LoS is needed for 'These powers' referencing the ones in the Eldar Codex. I don't think that translates to the generic BFB spells, unfortunetely, as they are not specifically 'Farseer powers'.
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[mod]Please take all rules based discussion regarding what you can and cannot do with Eldar psychic powers and line of sight to the rules board. This thread is not meant for such a detailed rules debate.[/mod]
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I'll just ask simple question for people who are already familiar with 6ed games: I am bringing jetbike council, two squads of jetbike guardians, maybe some FA or HS for support (I have spiders, wraithlord, a fire dragons squad in tank maybe?). How fast will I die and how many stuff will I kill in 6ed compared to 5ed? I am not asking for long winded comment about "well it all will depent on ehhh...", I just want to know how viable is Saim-Hann in 6ed and am I going to play it or not. I'll admit following ever-changing rules and more and more imba from new codexes is hard for a slowpoke like me.
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I'll just ask simple question for people who are already familiar with 6ed games: I am bringing jetbike council, two squads of jetbike guardians, maybe some FA or HS for support (I have spiders, wraithlord, a fire dragons squad in tank maybe?). How fast will I die and how many stuff will I kill in 6ed compared to 5ed? I am not asking for long winded comment about "well it all will depent on ehhh...", I just want to know how viable is Saim-Hann in 6ed and am I going to play it or not. I'll admit following ever-changing rules and more and more imba from new codexes is hard for a slowpoke like me.
Now that abilities to deny self-buffs are rare, jetbike seer council is much more reliable than in 5th. Since they are generally the heavy lifters of a Saim-Hann list, I would say they are looking good.
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I'll just ask simple question for people who are already familiar with 6ed games: I am bringing jetbike council, two squads of jetbike guardians, maybe some FA or HS for support (I have spiders, wraithlord, a fire dragons squad in tank maybe?). How fast will I die and how many stuff will I kill in 6ed compared to 5ed? I am not asking for long winded comment about "well it all will depent on ehhh...", I just want to know how viable is Saim-Hann in 6ed and am I going to play it or not. I'll admit following ever-changing rules and more and more imba from new codexes is hard for a slowpoke like me.
Go with 8-10 FD Serpent.
Bikes are awesome, 'nuff said. Comparatively a Jb army is way better.
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Cool. Thanks.
Go with 8-10 FD Serpent.
Seems like Tank Hunters for our Exarch can be a viable choice now. We can pop 'em tanks from 12" with it quite reliably.
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jetbike seer council is much more reliable than in 5th. Since they are generally the heavy lifters of a Saim-Hann list, I would say they are looking good.
Rubbish. Jetbike seer councils are a crutch. Oh, they're dead-nasty and have been since 3rd edition. And they're even nastier in 6th, to hear everyone talk. But to say they're the "heavy lifters" of a Saim-Hann list is to...overgeneralize . The shining spear is the heavy lifter of a Saim-Hann list. I don't even own a farseer, but at 2000 points I bring fifteen shining spears, and my wild rider chief rides with them.
Saim-Hann is a very viable list. Beginning with the 4th ed Eldar codex, shining spears became amazing in large, 5-spear squads working in teams of two. They're even better now. So are guardian jetbikes. And, if you feel like you can't pull it off without your farseer, the jetbike seer council sounds like it's pretty nasty, too (at least that's what everyone seems to think). I also bring two fireprisms, which people are pretty down on (not sure why; they don't seem much more vulnerable than they were in 5th edition) and a night spinner. I'm thinking of trading in the night spinner for my night wing because I can have a fourth FA choice in most of the games I am likely to play.
Note: I've seen a lot of previous posts with questions about multiple primary detachments. I'm concerned that folks have been either confused by the "Bigger Games" rule or what constitutes a "bigger game." We're not talking apoc, here, folks. I encourage you to revisit the BRB on page 110; if you're evening of warhammer consists of a 2,000 pointer, prepare to have your mind blown.
So, I'm thinking it's time to bid adieu to the night spinner and replace it with a nightwing in order to have something that can bring down a flyer without taking two or three turns to do it.
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Does metagame imply we can be looking for an increase in mindstrike missiles to deal with seer councils?
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Does metagame imply we can be looking for an increase in mindstrike missiles to deal with seer councils?
It all depends. Grey Knight players generally don't all take Stormravens. They are quite expensive, and unless people are using coteaz, you can't get inexpensive units to throw in them. The metagame might shift, but that probably won't happen if people aren't beating other armies while using a stormraven.
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I'm just stoked that Footdar is viable. I played foot in 5th and struggled...now though!!! YAY! I run classic foot with D.Eldar antitank allies...with some 6 walkers, an avatar, a wraithlord, a harliestar, and warpspiders = profit
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Does metagame imply we can be looking for an increase in mindstrike missiles to deal with seer councils?
It all depends. Grey Knight players generally don't all take Stormravens. They are quite expensive, and unless people are using coteaz, you can't get inexpensive units to throw in them. The metagame might shift, but that probably won't happen if people aren't beating other armies while using a stormraven.
On top of that, if they want to drop off anything Ravens have to go into hover mode, which means getting shot at normal BS. Add to the fact they have to go in reserves no one is using them at my LGS including myself (blood angels).
I'm just stoked that Footdar is viable. I played foot in 5th and struggled...now though!!! YAY! I run classic foot with D.Eldar antitank allies...with some 6 walkers, an avatar, a wraithlord, a harliestar, and warpspiders = profit
They never really weren't viable. It's just foot lists were limited in units that would work. Also the fact that vehicles are weaker, and transports are harder to use knocked mech lists down a few pegs making what was a huge gap, a much smaller one. The only thing Eldar ever suffered from (and still do) are aged point costs.
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I'm just stoked that Footdar is viable. I played foot in 5th and struggled...now though!!! YAY! I run classic foot with D.Eldar antitank allies...with some 6 walkers, an avatar, a wraithlord, a harliestar, and warpspiders = profit
I wouldn't say its "more" viable then it ever was. Its just the way people play now that Mech has been nerfed a bit.
In fact, I would say that foot eldar has actually fared LESS in this edition then other armies. The changes to rapid fire rules don't make eldar "special" anymore as a run and gun list, and challenges and precision shots can REALLY mess over your aspect squads if your exarch goes down to a lucky shot.
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I'm just stoked that Footdar is viable. I played foot in 5th and struggled...now though!!! YAY! I run classic foot with D.Eldar antitank allies...with some 6 walkers, an avatar, a wraithlord, a harliestar, and warpspiders = profit
I wouldn't say its "more" viable then it ever was. Its just the way people play now that Mech has been nerfed a bit.
In fact, I would say that foot eldar has actually fared LESS in this edition then other armies. The changes to rapid fire rules don't make eldar "special" anymore as a run and gun list, and challenges and precision shots can REALLY mess over your aspect squads if your exarch goes down to a lucky shot.
Afraid I'll have to disagree with you there. While it's true that certain things can potentially mess with us by sniping out squad leaders, I think a few things have made hybrid and infantry lists a lot more viable. The biggest thing, for me, is the relative vulnerability of enemy transports. Now my hawks, spiders, and scorpions are able to actually kill vehicles pretty reliably rather than just slow them down. This means that I can actually field such units in place of transports. I also don't feel like I *need* the anti-vehicle guns I used to put on wave serpents because my other army choices can deal with enemy vehicles reliably enough on their own. It feels good to be looking to make lists that I really like the idea of again instead of constantly compromising "coolness" for effectiveness. :)
My biggest concern this edition is fliers. :P I can finally leave the vehicles at home for the most part when not dealing with enemy fliers. I don't want to spend money on/field forgeworld units/my own fliers or other vehicles just to shutdown enemies in the air. I'm really hoping my usual opponent doesn't start making a valkyrie heavy army any time soon, because then I'd probably have to forget about runnign the sort of list I actually enjoy again.
I love Swooping Hawks and have since 3rd edition (back before I as actually playing the game), so I hope they get an exarch power that lets them deal with fliers or something in the next book. Then all these enemy planes will stop being game wreckers for me and start being ideal targets for one of my favorite aspect warriors. >: )
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I love Swooping Hawks and have since 3rd edition (back before I as actually playing the game), so I hope they get an exarch power that lets them deal with fliers or something in the next book. Then all these enemy planes will stop being game wreckers for me and start being ideal targets for one of my favorite aspect warriors. >: )
You can suggest house rulling the Intercept rule for the Exarch to allow Swooping Hawks to assualt flyers. I wouldn't think this to be too unreasonable considering the cost both money wise and points wise in investing in AA support for Eldar.
If you play for fun, and it sounds like you do then your opponent shouldn't have too much of a problem with this as otherwise the game would become very one sided and not much fun at all.
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I love Swooping Hawks and have since 3rd edition (back before I as actually playing the game), so I hope they get an exarch power that lets them deal with fliers or something in the next book. Then all these enemy planes will stop being game wreckers for me and start being ideal targets for one of my favorite aspect warriors. >: )
You can suggest house rulling the Intercept rule for the Exarch to allow Swooping Hawks to assualt flyers. I wouldn't think this to be too unreasonable considering the cost both money wise and points wise in investing in AA support for Eldar.
If you play for fun, and it sounds like you do then your opponent shouldn't have too much of a problem with this as otherwise the game would become very one sided and not much fun at all.
Good suggestion! My buddy can be a stickler on rules, but he's also pretty open to trying out new rules, so I'll run this by him.
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New FAQ out today: http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2570042a_Eldar_v1.1.pdf: (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2570042a_Eldar_v1.1.pdf:)
Page 35 – Swooping Hawks, Intercept.
Replace the second sentence with “In assaults, they always treat
vehicles, except Walkers, as having Weapon Skill 0”.
So no joy on help with the flyers, alas.
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Aw man, when I saw the Swooping Hawk change I was all "YES! HERE IT COMES, ANTI FLYING...!" but nope!
Still, for a Xp power automatic hits are not bad at all! :)
[mod]Please don't post individual points costs, it's against the forum rules - Iris.[/mod]
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Other useful things to note:
-Banshees specifically have swords now. Executioner has specific profile now (AP3)
-Warding doesn't stack
-witnessing and warding cancel out
-You can bladestorm during overwatch, but can not overwatch after bladestorming in the shooting phase (sad face, but logical as far as the current bladestorm rules are concerned.
-Destructor can't be used in overwatch
-Vibros can't hit zooming/swooping flyers
-DE allies don't count as Eldar for Fortune and Guide (no uber archon power balls)
-Fuegan's axe has specific profile in CC now
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That kinda sucks with Fuegan... I always liked tearing vehicles apart with him. Guess he can glance stuff to death :( He still can do some decent damage against everything else though.
And VoT got helped a bit.
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That kinda sucks with Fuegan... I always liked tearing vehicles apart with him. Guess he can glance stuff to death :( He still can do some decent damage against everything else though.
How so?
The Smash Rule attributed to his weapon, and his strength combined, actually give him more Vehicle damaging potential than a Wraithlord. If you check your BRB for the rules for the special rules of the weapon, you'll discover that Fuegan is now capable of 2 (3 on the charge) attacks at the strength of a Wraithlord with re-roll Armour Pens. Which is easily capable of destroying even a Land Raider. Also, if you're REALLY worried, you can always use his melta bomb (don't know why you would though...)
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-Warding doesn't stack
-witnessing and warding cancel out
I see no changes to the runes, where did you get this from?
-DE allies don't count as Eldar for Fortune and Guide (no uber archon power balls)
Again, I don't see how this changes anything. As far as I can tell, you can still get around it by attaching the archon to an eldar unit
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-Warding doesn't stack
-witnessing and warding cancel out
I see no changes to the runes, where did you get this from?
Bottom Right of Page 2 will answer both of those questions nicely. It's actually the FAQ section, but hey...
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-Warding doesn't stack
-witnessing and warding cancel out
I see no changes to the runes, where did you get this from?
Bottom right of page 2. It's in magenta..
-DE allies don't count as Eldar for Fortune and Guide (no uber archon power balls)
Again, I don't see how this changes anything. As far as I can tell, you can still get around it by attaching the archon to an eldar unit
Fortune and Guide can only effect an Eldar unit. It specifically states DE do not count as an Eldar unit when taken as allies. I read this as a DE IC attached to an Eldar unit, does not become an Eldar and so can not gain the benefit for Fortune or Guide.
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I'd really love to hear their reasoning for an ap3 Executioner when Incubi have been made ap2. Just seems like a needless further middle finger to banshees.
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That change doesn't really matter all that much in my view. It's not as if you would be assaulting Terminators with Howling Banshees in sixth edition anyway, so making the AP of Executioner identical to the Power Sword is not something which unduly worries me.
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Not to mention the already present imbalance in favour of the Executioner when it comes to the different weapon options for the Howling Banshee Exarch.
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Logically it would make sense foe the executioner to be AP2 but with the way mirror swords work now in comparison to other PWs the executioner isn't exactly a no brainer anymore. It brought some balance within the Exarch's wargear.
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A bit tongue in cheek, but maybe actually a serious problem;
BRB<Codex<FAQ<further down the page in a FAQ??
page 1;
Page 35 – Intercept.
The last sentence should be changed to: “In assaults, they
never require worse than 4+ to hit vehicles that do not have a
WS.”
page 2;
"Page 35 – Swooping Hawks, Intercept.
Replace the second sentence with “In assaults, they always treat
vehicles, except Walkers, as having Weapon Skill 0”"
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A bit tongue in cheek, but maybe actually a serious problem;
BRB<Codex<FAQ<further down the page in a FAQ??
page 1;
Page 35 – Intercept.
The last sentence should be changed to: “In assaults, they
never require worse than 4+ to hit vehicles that do not have a
WS.”
page 2;
"Page 35 – Swooping Hawks, Intercept.
Replace the second sentence with “In assaults, they always treat
vehicles, except Walkers, as having Weapon Skill 0”"
Quote 2 just means that quote 1 will never come up, so I don't think there's a problem. Lazy editting though.
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So if banshees have power swords does that mean I can give them axes? And how does that work with their masks?
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So if banshees have power swords does that mean I can give them axes?
You can certainly remodel your Banshees to have axes if you so desire, but in terms of rules, they have swords. No ifs, ands, or buts here; they specifically have swords and the only model in the whole unit that can have anything different is the Exarch.
Axes and swords are not the same thing.
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To be clear, Koval is saying that because of the update to the Eldar FAQ (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2570042a_Eldar_v1.1.pdf)
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[mod]The discussion on Fortune and Guide being cast on allied Dark Eldar units has been moved to the rules board. Please continue the discussion in that thread (http://www.40konline.com/index.php?topic=223262.0).[/mod]
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That change doesn't really matter all that much in my view. It's not as if you would be assaulting Terminators with Howling Banshees in sixth edition anyway, so making the AP of Executioner identical to the Power Sword is not something which unduly worries me.
Well beside flimsy harlies its not like we are going to assault termies at all in sixth. Banshees are well let me put it in a polite way crap, and I own 40 of them!
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That change doesn't really matter all that much in my view. It's not as if you would be assaulting Terminators with Howling Banshees in sixth edition anyway, so making the AP of Executioner identical to the Power Sword is not something which unduly worries me.
Well beside flimsy harlies its not like we are going to assault termies at all in sixth. Banshees are well let me put it in a polite way crap, and I own 40 of them!
to be fair though, most termies i saw in 5th were of the hammer/shield combo. i suspect that will change a bit now in 6th due to 2+ being pretty golden.
i just hope you brough a lot of scatter lasers instead of sharp pointy things!!