Topic: Battle Debrief - 1000 Corsairs vs Orks

[Khorne25]

Today I played Corsairs for the first time with proper models and rules. (yes all models). I played against my friend with Orks (again). Here is the Order of Battle. NB: He was above 1000 so I simply bumped mine up.

1040 pts Corsairs

1 Corsair Prince w/Balelight + meltabombs + fusion pistol + power weapon + jetpack
5 Bladestorm + melta bombs + 2 FP + jetpacks
10 Voidstorm + 3 FG
6 Fire Dragons + exarch + tank hunter

10 Corsairs + 2 Shuricannon + jetpacks
10 Corsairs + 2 EMLs + jetpacks

10 Warriors + blaster + darklance
1 Raider + shockprow + flickerfields

Orks (dont have his exact list)

Warboss
Big Mek
2 Killerkans
1 Killerkan
1 Boyz squad
1 Kommando squad
3 Deffcoptas
1 Battlewagon

--

Order of Events

Turn 1 Deployment

Corsairs had 2 Corsair squads and a Raider deployed on table.
Fire Dragons, Voidstorms and Bladesworn + Prince were deepstrike reserves

Orks had Battlewagon, 2 Killerkans behind and Nobz + Warboss behind that
Big Mek, Boyz and a Killerkan inside Battlewagon
Kommandos + Deffcoptas outflanking.

Map:
Legend - Blue is Cover, Red is hostile,


-
Events of Turn 1

Corsairs start first with a roll of 5 to the Ork's roll of 2.

Raider moves forward at battlespeed.
2 krak missiles fired at Side Armour of Battlewagon. No effect.
Dark Lance fired at Side Armour. Miss.

Orks turn.
Battlewagon moves forward. Killerkans and Nobz follow behind.

Map:

-
Events of Turn 2

Corsairs turn.
Fire Dragons deepstrike to the left of the Battlewagon.
Voidstorms deepstrike to the rear of the Battlewagon, Nobz and Killerkans.
Corsairs with 2 Shuricannon move forward

Fire Dragons open fire with Fusion Guns on the Battlewagon. Battlewagon is destroyed, spewing the Big Mek, Killerkan and Boyz out.
Voidstorms fire Fusion Guns on Nobz. No effect.
2 Krak missiles fired on Killerkan from Battlewagon. Immobilised.
Lasblaster, Shuricannon fire upon Boyz. Orks take 6 causalties.

Voidstorms jetpack in the Assault phase away 6".

Orks turn.
WAAAAGHHHH!
Deffcoptas and Kommados outflank on the right flank.

Deffcoptas fire on Raider. Raider wrecked.
Kommandos fire upon Corsair squad with a flamer and standard dakka. 5 casualties taken.

Big Mek, Killerkans charge Fire Dragons.
Fire Dragons use Meltabombs against Killerkans. 1 immobilised, 1 destroyed.
Fire Dragons hold in combat. Combat drawn.


-
Events of Turn 3

Corsairs turn.
Bladesworn and Prince arrive, scattering just to the south of the Corsair squad with 2 SCs.
Sonic Torpedo bombardment on Nobz scatters off.
Warriors fire on Nobz. One wounded.
Corsairs fire with Shuricannon and Lasblasters at Deffcoptas.

Fire Dragons continue combat with Big Mek and Boyz. Combat drawn.

Orks turn.

Nobz move through cover 4".
Big Mek and Boyz resolve combat with Fire Dragons. Fire Dragons destroyed.
Deffcoptas tarpit Corsair squad w/SCs.
Kommandos charge and wipe out the other Corsair squad. Consolidate 6" towards the last pocket of Corsairs.
-
Events of Turn 4

Corsairs turn.
Combat sustained.
2 Bladesworn are killed. Prince sustains 1 wound.
Orks hold combat with Boyz, Big Mek and one remaining Deffcopta.
Corsair squad fails to damage the Deffcopta.

Orks turn.
Nobz charge Warriors and wipe them out.
Combat sustained.
2 Bladesworn are killed. Prince sustains another wound - one W remaining.
Deffcopta kills further Corsairs.
-
Events of Turn 5

Corsairs turn.
Combat sustained.
Minor losses.

Orks turn.
Nobz join the fray.
All corsair forces are wiped out bar one Bladesworn.

Bladesworn fails Ld test and suceeds in fleeing the table.

Orks win.

--
Corsairs Analysis

Voidstorms are the biggest waste of points since the Vyper. Quote Abusive Puppy from 3++ is the new black

Forge World's favorite unit in the world, one that they put into every Yhwh-condemned codex ever, is the "amphetamine parrotty Veteran Squad." Here's how it works: you take whatever the normal troop squad for the codex is, you take away all their normal options, you give them one extra attack, and let them take Power Weapons and fancy pistols.

If Bladesworn are to be taken, they should be there as a cheap retinue. Nothing more. Jetpacks is the only upgrade I would ever take.

Fire Dragons are a god send. They dont need a Wave Serpent, just Deepstrike and watch stuff explode.

Equally, Kabalite Warriors are too a god send. I would take many many many more of these if only the FOC allowed just a few more Elite slots...

I havent quite gotten the trick of using Corsairs jetpacks to the greatest effect so in this battle, they performed much worse than they should have.
Lasblasters are only effective in with more squads of Corsairs using them. I would still take Shuriken Catapults.

Corsairs have no decent CC at all. There is no effective counter assault unit in the army list other than from the Craftworld Outcasts or Harlequins. As such, dont even bother with CCW Corsairs or Voidstorms. Bladesworn are different as they serve as retinue (to soak up shots in a way) for the Prince who is quite decent in CC.

I didnt use Wasps because at this point level I felt they cost too much. I also have no vehicles as I was trying to stay away from my usual vehicle approach that my friend anticipates with glee.

Some ammends I would personally make to the Corsair list (and this is based off a lot of theorycrafting and mathshammer Ive been doing over the past week every night). Bladesworn should all have power weapons base. Voidstorms should have an Aspect statline (ie, a better armour save). In the same vein, Bladesworn have an awful statline, at least the wounds could be bumped up to serve as a better retinue. At the moment theyre just more expensive Dire Avengers with a squad limit which prevents them being used really well in sufficient numbers.

The whole Eldar weapon costs and upgrades costs I hope will be fixed in 6th Ed. It is pretty clear that the army list was rushed out (IA11 was rushed for sure) and not enough playtesting went into this list. I do hope that FW updates this army list in 6th Ed. Its fun, its fluffy, but it lacks real edge. I will continue to play with many new lists and against more opponents with the end goal of hammering out a potentially competitive list.

PS: On another note, my Bladesworn (made of Dire Avenger bitz and Corsair bits) and my Voidstorms look AWESOME! If only Bladesworn were Incubi-level warriors :<

[greenmtvince]

Corsairs Analysis

Voidstorms are the biggest waste of points since the Vyper. Quote Abusive Puppy from 3++ is the new black

Forge World's favorite unit in the world, one that they put into every Yhwh-condemned codex ever, is the "amphetamine parrotty Veteran Squad." Here's how it works: you take whatever the normal troop squad for the codex is, you take away all their normal options, you give them one extra attack, and let them take Power Weapons and fancy pistols.

I disagree.  Voidstorms are there to escort the Void-dreamer.  It's her retinue.  Their fusion guns pairs nicely with her withering radiance.  At the end of the day it's still storm guardian squad. 

If Bladesworn are to be taken, they should be there as a cheap retinue. Nothing more. Jetpacks is the only upgrade I would ever take.

 

I'm not sure about this, but you'll notice I've dropped the bladesworn in favor of the a cheaper voidstorm squad.  I feel like they have their place with fusion pistols, but I haven't tested this yet.

Fire Dragons are a god send. They dont need a Wave Serpent, just Deepstrike and watch stuff explode.

Mine whiffed incredibly despite a good deepstrike, still I think they're money. 

Equally, Kabalite Warriors are too a god send. I would take many many many more of these if only the FOC allowed just a few more Elite slots...

At that point aren't you just playing Dark Eldar?  I dunno, I look at their statline and options and don't think they're bringing anything to the table you can't get with a corsair squad except maybe some marginally better CC ability. 

I havent quite gotten the trick of using Corsairs jetpacks to the greatest effect so in this battle, they performed much worse than they should have.
Lasblasters are only effective in with more squads of Corsairs using them. I would still take Shuriken Catapults.

The jetpacks are really about deployment, planning your movements 3 turns in advance, and anticipating where your opponent will move.  I was able to kite a CC heavy army for 6 turns of my game.  Your diagram looks like you were on a 4'x4' table and I think that may be too small for a mobile army like this. 

I disagree about the shuriken catapaults.  That extra 12" on the lasblaster is worth the 1 point of strength.  If you're in range of shuriken catapaults, you're going to get assaulted (see your next point) the lasblaster allows you to kite. 

Corsairs have no decent CC at all. There is no effective counter assault unit in the army list other than from the Craftworld Outcasts or Harlequins. As such, dont even bother with CCW Corsairs or Voidstorms. Bladesworn are different as they serve as retinue (to soak up shots in a way) for the Prince who is quite decent in CC.

Agree on the CC and said so in my earlier list analysis.  Yet another reason why I think the voidstorms are a better retinue.  That 5++ save they get at cost is way better than the 4+ save that's nullified by just about everything out there. 

I didnt use Wasps because at this point level I felt they cost too much. I also have no vehicles as I was trying to stay away from my usual vehicle approach that my friend anticipates with glee.

  When you get the hang of jetpacks, the Wasps earn their points for the kiting game.  That jump jet move is great itself when you need to bug out. 

Some ammends I would personally make to the Corsair list (and this is based off a lot of theorycrafting and mathshammer Ive been doing over the past week every night). Bladesworn should all have power weapons base. Voidstorms should have an Aspect statline (ie, a better armour save). In the same vein, Bladesworn have an awful statline, at least the wounds could be bumped up to serve as a better retinue. At the moment theyre just more expensive Dire Avengers with a squad limit which prevents them being used really well in sufficient numbers.

I agree about the bladesworn, or they should at least have some other perk like maybe shimmershields built in.  Right now they cost slightly more than banshees with the same weapons and don't have any of the banshee perks, and I think banshees are a bit overcosted/underperforming for 5th ed. 

The voidstorm I think are fine as they are and while I could've done with a leadership bump the built in 5++CC save is nice.  I just would've liked an option to drop the jetpacks and take a venom.  I think they're priced about right though.

The whole Eldar weapon costs and upgrades costs I hope will be fixed in 6th Ed. It is pretty clear that the army list was rushed out (IA11 was rushed for sure) and not enough playtesting went into this list. I do hope that FW updates this army list in 6th Ed. Its fun, its fluffy, but it lacks real edge. I will continue to play with many new lists and against more opponents with the end goal of hammering out a potentially competitive list.

I disagree that it lacks real edge.  It's a finesse list that requires as much or more synergy than the craftworld list and has more room for error in the listbuilding stage because of that.  My picks were far from perfect, and I could see where I'd want to swap out units one way or another.  I think if you're going with the jetpack list you need to give it another go to get a hang of the kiting, use the wasps, and probably pick some elites with better synergy.  I think a venom or falcon based list would be far more forgiving.

PS: On another note, my Bladesworn (made of Dire Avenger bitz and Corsair bits) and my Voidstorms look AWESOME! If only Bladesworn were Incubi-level warriors :<

  Post pics!

[SKEETERGOD]

I just love it when the orks win, Good Stuff, you should get your ork friend to sign up on the ork forum so that we orks can congratulate him on his win.  (in case you couldn't tell I am an avid ork player)

One thing that bothers me; a dread riding in a battle wagon. First off, as far as I know (unless you have a house rule that says different) a battle wagon can only carry one squad, not two. I understand that using IA rules that vehicle capacities can be used by other than infantry units, but still can't mix units unless specifically stated in its rules that it can (like the SM Thunder chicken).

One mistake that I see that you should work on is the getting into combat with orks. This is the one area that orks excel at. While eldar are far more shooty. You should try to practice on shooting for effect, and getting your drop troops in behind the orks to go for the trapped result (used to be called crossfire) to more effectively wipe out ork units before they get into combat. If you get into CC with orks you have made a mistake, and this will usually cost you the unit if not the game.

A good report, and I like the use of graphics to help show the flow of the battle. As for your opinion that the eldar list was rushed... I think that someone in games development hates the eldar, as the last few codexes the eldar have suffered nerf after nerf (come on now; gods of battle (Phoenix lords) without an invuln save, and assault troops without grenades, etc. etc. etc.) So to play as eldar you must be willing to continue to endure the hatred of the development people, and learn to play a substandard list well.

[Arquarian]

I agree with skeetergod, getting into combat with Orks is generally a no no. Eldar getting into combat with Orks is a double no no.
NO to the power 4 if you will.

Stand off and shoot is the wat to go with Corsairs I feel. You should only be thinking about combat to mop up on turn 5 at the earliest I'd say.

Having said that you're doing better than me as I've yet to have a game with my Corsairs.

I think you can still do pleanty of Dakka with an all foot army. 10 man corsair squads with jetpacks and 2 EMLs/Shuricannons has plenty potential for stand off dakka.

Also as GMTV said the voidstorms are really the retinue for the Void dreamer. This combo I think would work quite well.