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Offline Lord of Winter and War

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Re: Elder is next.
« Reply #60 on: October 18, 2017, 02:26:47 PM »
The other armies all have at least some recent models except for the Imperial Guard. Most of the Eldar range dates to 3rd Edition, and the army has more resin infantry than any other. The Avatar, all of the special characters, the Warp Spiders and the basic vehicle frames for the Vyper, Spear jetbikes, and Falcon variants are all from 2nd Edition, while the Eldar got a significant redesign in 3rd that makes elements of these (including the crew and underslung shuriken catapults for the vehicles) look thoroughly out of place.

The failure to update the Spears when the jetbikes were redone is bizarre, especially as the Spear Exarch has a bright lance option that hasn't been supported in the Codex for years from what I can gather.

I don't disagree that the models are old. Chaos Space Marines have the same issue with some of their their models too, same with Astra Millitarium regiments. Doesn't change that the focus right now is getting all factions rules up to date. There will be more models eventually, GW is very keen to eradicate all pewter/finecast models. It's just not going to happen until the blitz to update all the armies books are done.

Also, I'm sure that the Jetbike Autarch has a laser-lance, not a bright lance.


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Offline Partninja

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Re: Elder is next.
« Reply #61 on: October 18, 2017, 04:02:43 PM »
You will have shuirken weapons, so you'll be getting a bonus. Pistols are still relevant, as you can shoot them while in combat.

I do wish it was re-roll 1s to wound though, that'd be nice to help trigger bladestorm.

My guess for sam-han is ignore -1 to hit for shooting heavy weapons on bikes, and re-roll charges.

Altioc will get the obligatory -1 to hit beyond 12".

Sure, but my Scorps or Banshees success was never contingent on their pistols shots in my experience this edition. I would have preferred wound rerolls as well.

Don't misunderstand though, I will likely be running a Biel-tan list as my most used list. Likely to be running an Avatar, Avenger + guardians core, supplemented by some Scorpions and Shining Spears.

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Re: Elder is next.
« Reply #62 on: October 18, 2017, 04:05:45 PM »
The other armies all have at least some recent models except for the Imperial Guard. Most of the Eldar range dates to 3rd Edition, and the army has more resin infantry than any other. The Avatar, all of the special characters, the Warp Spiders and the basic vehicle frames for the Vyper, Spear jetbikes, and Falcon variants are all from 2nd Edition, while the Eldar got a significant redesign in 3rd that makes elements of these (including the crew and underslung shuriken catapults for the vehicles) look thoroughly out of place.

The failure to update the Spears when the jetbikes were redone is bizarre, especially as the Spear Exarch has a bright lance option that hasn't been supported in the Codex for years from what I can gather.

I don't disagree that the models are old. Chaos Space Marines have the same issue with some of their their models too, same with Astra Millitarium regiments. Doesn't change that the focus right now is getting all factions rules up to date. There will be more models eventually, GW is very keen to eradicate all pewter/finecast models. It's just not going to happen until the blitz to update all the armies books are done.

Also, I'm sure that the Jetbike Autarch has a laser-lance, not a bright lance.

The Autarch may, but that's a more recent model. The Shining Spear Exarch - unless they removed the component when the change to resin took place - has two options: a sword and a bright lance. The bright lance looks different from the laser lances used by the rest of the squad (as well as simply looking like a bright lance).

In the past they've always preferred to release models alongside the Codex while that army was flavour of the month. We've just seen new models for Typhus (shame, as the old one was better) and basic Death Guard infantry which are direct replacements for figures that already existed - it's not clear why they couldn't have done the same with the Eldar. I don't think Chaos has a comparable issue - they have 3rd Ed. basic infantry plastic kits, but even then they've had recent figures for Kharn, Ahriman, Chaos Dreadnoughts and the Thousand Suns, and I don't think anything in the range still dates back to 2nd Ed. (Abaddon maybe?)

Offline magenb

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Re: Elder is next.
« Reply #63 on: October 18, 2017, 04:06:19 PM »
I hope we get some kind of change to Rangers. Somehow they just don't seem to be cutting it presently. That being said, if they had an additional -1 to hit for Alaitoc, this would make Alaitoc Rangers pretty sweet. Will we see the return of Pathfinders?

This is the eara of overwhelming firepower, rangers are, high points, low damage output, they are only really useful as meat shields for illic or picking of entry level characters such as cryptek. Maybe an alternate firemode/ammo type that removes sniper rule but causes extra autohits kind of like the old shuriken cannon sherieker ammo causing things to exploded and causing leadership shenanigans.



This look really depressing,

while the court is for Banshees, you still need that Avatar close by to take full advantage of the court, combined with Jain Zar this would just be CC-overload, so noone would ever go near them.
Yes it does.

Court of Khaine is meh, it is too expensive and does not really do enough for that cost, and frankly with Banshee's they probably already have the distance, expecially if they are with in 6.

I'll be disappointed if there really are no new models

I'm not expecting any new models, we got some new ones not too long ago, if anything it would be a new upgrade kit for spears since they are the new black for eldar.



Post Merge: October 18, 2017, 04:36:09 PM
In the future, please use the modify button. Double posting is against the forum rules, and for that reason, the system merged your posts.

The Autarch may, but that's a more recent model. The Shining Spear Exarch - unless they removed the component when the change to resin took place - has two options: a sword and a bright lance. The bright lance looks different from the laser lances used by the rest of the squad (as well as simply looking like a bright lance).

It is star lance.



In the past they've always preferred to release models alongside the Codex while that army was flavour of the month.

GW makes a lot of noise before the codex drops when they have a new model. They would be exceedingly quiet if they did  have new kit for Eldar and proably wouldn't have bothered with the rogue trader stuff if they had something new.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2017, 04:36:09 PM by magenb »

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Re: Elder is next.
« Reply #64 on: October 18, 2017, 05:25:50 PM »
Interesting news on the Biel-Tan front. I think the Biel-Tan trait counter-intuitively lends itself to using Psyker or Phoenix Lord HQs. Why? The Autarch's bonus isn't useful for shooting with Shuriken Weapons if you are Biel-Tan. Still, in an army that was, say, mostly Banshees and Fire Dragons and Shining Spears, which use assault or non-shuriken shooting, the Autarch will have plenty to do. So we could see some of that. Morale boost seems pretty meh, but it's coupled with a very strong ability so it's sensible. Better morale wouldn't be useful on small squads or units near the Avatar of course, but could be useful in a pinch. The real secret tech of course is that if you have a bunch of Aspect Warriors crouched in a Wave Serpent, the Serpent itself can reroll its Shuriken shots even if your Autarch is also inside.

Hearing Dire Avengers are getting a price reduction is very exciting to me! I am very happy about this. This was my #1 request for this Codex, because right now DAs do not seem playable (or at least I have not been able to use them) due to being more than 2x the price of Guardian Defenders. This alone makes me satisfied.

Feigned Retreat seems like a great Stratagem, the kind that you'll get a lot of use out of. It means as long as you have CP, your opponent can't be absolutely sure he'll tie up your stuff by charging it. Even the threat of this Stratagem will be valuable.

The Avatar Resurgent could be pretty good. Bringing back the Avatar might be worth the CP spent on this, though it is very pricy.

Court of the Young King re-rolling hits instead of wounds is a little sad but being able to charge more reliably is nice.
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Offline funkyfellow

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Re: Elder is next.
« Reply #65 on: October 18, 2017, 05:31:25 PM »
I had been expecting for Biel-Tan something along the lines of the army being able to charge after advancing and aspect warriors having a re-roll 1s for wound rolls with shooting attacks.

This would have captured both the aggressive nature of Biel-Tan as well the quality of their aspect warriors without any overlap with the Autarch, Avatar, or Phoenix Lords. But oh well.

I also thought Ulthwe would be +1 to Ulthwe psyker cast rolls and Shuriken weaponry re-rolling 1s to hit. And Iyanden having the 6+ FnP roll, but GW had other ideas :)

I would hope Saim-han ignores the penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons and having +2" to Jetbike advance and charge rolls. And Alaitoc  having a -1 to being hit at 12", but we will have to see.

Offline Rhyleth

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Re: Elder is next.
« Reply #66 on: October 18, 2017, 06:17:57 PM »

I'll be disappointed if there really are no new models

I'm not expecting any new models, we got some new ones not too long ago, if anything it would be a new upgrade kit for spears since they are the new black for eldar.

If the new upgrade kit comes with the new bikes, all to the good. As it is I don't think the Spear upgrades are sold separately so you need to buy two sets to use them if you want the new bikes.

I'm not aware of any recent models for Eldar other than the updates to the bikes and Wraithguard, both of which were long overdue at the time, and models for a couple of new units which were necessitated by new rules for fliers and superheavies which saw every army get new models. That fits the 'no new models without new units' rule they seem to be following now - the Wraithguard got new weapon options and jetbikes got extra heavy weapons.

And even those were the first new models for the Eldar since the addition of the Night Spinner (5th Edition?), I believe.

Quote
It is star lance.

Ah, so they just renamed it despite the fact that it still looks like a bright lance. Star lance didn't exist in 3rd as I recall.


Quote
GW makes a lot of noise before the codex drops when they have a new model. They would be exceedingly quiet if they did  have new kit for Eldar and proably wouldn't have bothered with the rogue trader stuff if they had something new.

How much fuss did they make about the new Plague Marine models before the models themselves were actually previewed? People obviously expected them thanks to the Death Guard being in the boxed set, but I don't recall seeing anything about them until they were actually ready for release.

EDIT: I don't know if this is any kind of hint, but the community page has a bunch of Eldar silhouettes on a 'Regimental Standard' and many of the Aspect Warriors look somewhat different from the present models:

The Dark Reaper looks like the RT incarnation, with tapering helmet, more prominent sensor vanes, and thicker leg guards, only with current-style sensor backpack.

The Warp Spider looks very slender, and notably with much slimmer legs than the current models.

The Hawk looks very much like an RT-era version, but the weapon doesn't look like either a current lasblaster (no second barrel and the tip is upside down) or an RT lasgun.

Minor differences to the Striking Scorpion (more slender) and Howling Banshee (taller).

This could all be artistic licence, especially as most of these Aspects bar the Reaper and Spider are shown in poses the current models don't allow, but all of the other silhouettes look as though they're based on the current models.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2017, 06:31:28 PM by Rhyleth »

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Re: Elder is next.
« Reply #67 on: October 18, 2017, 06:40:50 PM »
Quote
EDIT: I don't know if this is any kind of hint, but the community page has a bunch of Eldar silhouettes on a 'Regimental Standard' and many of the Aspect Warriors look somewhat different from the present models:

The Dark Reaper looks like the RT incarnation, with tapering helmet, more prominent sensor vanes, and thicker leg guards, only with current-style sensor backpack.

The Warp Spider looks very slender, and notably with much slimmer legs than the current models.

The Hawk looks very much like an RT-era version, but the weapon doesn't look like either a current lasblaster (no second barrel and the tip is upside down) or an RT lasgun.

Minor differences to the Striking Scorpion (more slender) and Howling Banshee (taller).

This could all be artistic licence, especially as most of these Aspects bar the Reaper and Spider are shown in poses the current models don't allow, but all of the other silhouettes look as though they're based on the current models.


It's just art, not the actual models. Don't get too excited. I wouldn't expect any new models until all the codex books are out. The only faction I'd expect to see new models for, is Ynnari.
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Offline Rhyleth

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Re: Elder is next.
« Reply #68 on: October 18, 2017, 07:25:46 PM »
Quote
EDIT: I don't know if this is any kind of hint, but the community page has a bunch of Eldar silhouettes on a 'Regimental Standard' and many of the Aspect Warriors look somewhat different from the present models:

The Dark Reaper looks like the RT incarnation, with tapering helmet, more prominent sensor vanes, and thicker leg guards, only with current-style sensor backpack.

The Warp Spider looks very slender, and notably with much slimmer legs than the current models.

The Hawk looks very much like an RT-era version, but the weapon doesn't look like either a current lasblaster (no second barrel and the tip is upside down) or an RT lasgun.

Minor differences to the Striking Scorpion (more slender) and Howling Banshee (taller).

This could all be artistic licence, especially as most of these Aspects bar the Reaper and Spider are shown in poses the current models don't allow, but all of the other silhouettes look as though they're based on the current models.


It's just art, not the actual models. Don't get too excited. I wouldn't expect any new models until all the codex books are out. The only faction I'd expect to see new models for, is Ynnari.

Just putting it out there. I can see them using artistic licence with the Warp Spider - the current models don't look at all Eldar following the 3rd Ed. redesign for the rest of the range - but the Reaper is striking. It's noticeably different from the current figures, whose terrible helmets look nothing like the one depicted, having that weirdly oblong shape instead of the conehead, and prominent tassles that are altogether missing from this one.

The Reapers have already been redesigned twice, unlike any other Aspect, given how badly the 3rd Ed. models were received, and while the later models were an improvement they still aren't as good stylistically as the RT ones - which however have the same over-bulky scale problem with both models and weapons as the Warp Spiders. New Reapers more faithful to the RT style but better-proportioned in keeping with the current Eldar style would certainly be welcome.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2017, 07:30:18 PM by Rhyleth »

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Re: Elder is next.
« Reply #69 on: October 19, 2017, 07:42:53 AM »
I'm really not understanding the ferocious gnashing of teeth that is going on with the previews of the Elder Codex.

Do the various Craftworld abilities look as powerful as the Guard Codex? No. But the Guard Codex should be seen as an outlier. Are the abilities in line with Space Marines, Ad Mech and to a lesser degree Death Guard? Yes, they are.

Are they fluffy? Yes. They add character to each craftworld.

Are they OP? No. That is a good thing people! You want opponents to want to play you. Not the bad old days of the last Codex or the Days of the Flying Circus.

Are they all Elder are getting? Who the beslubber knows!!! Seriously, GW are leaking what they want to leak. We haven't seen what the profiles of models looks like (Except for Wraith Guard and Wraith Lords, which both got better). We have no idea about the points cost for models (All we know is that Dire Avengers are cheaper).

So take a beslubbering breath people! You'll find out in just over a week whether the Craftworld rules are meh, or whether they interact beautifully with stratagems to craft a rewarding, exciting, balanced set of characterful armies.

So far, every single rule presented makes Craftworld Elder better and more viable. Get over the fact that you aren't going to be able to just turn up and win; the days of 7th are long gone.

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Re: Elder is next.
« Reply #70 on: October 19, 2017, 08:07:38 AM »
I must concur that there seems to be a rather a lot of negativity being expressed towards the information released so far.  I can see a number of the new rules being quite handy and I think that it would be wise to wait for further details before drawing so many negative conclusions.  There seems to be too great an expectation that Eldar should receive unique traits.  I see no reason why this has to be the case.  It helps if there are similarities with traits awarded to other armies, especially in terms of not having to incorporate too many rules into the game.

Regarding new models, I've never understood the constant clamour for new Eldar models.  Many of the old Rogue Trader and second edition models have stood the test of time very well, in my opinion.  The most recent Jes Goodwin sculpts are also very good.  The Jetbikes are dated, I agree, but otherwise I'm more than happy with what is available.

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Offline Partninja

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Re: Elder is next.
« Reply #71 on: October 19, 2017, 10:12:54 AM »
Welcome back scatter bike spam! Now cheaper and mobile.

Think I'd still prefer catapults for the bladestorm though.

Offline Lord of Winter and War

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Re: Elder is next.
« Reply #72 on: October 19, 2017, 10:16:29 AM »
Welcome back scatter bike spam! Now cheaper and mobile.

Think I'd still prefer catapults for the bladestorm though.

At least the days of scatter bike scam mixed with riptide wing are long gone lol.
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Offline Bego

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Re: Elder is next.
« Reply #73 on: October 19, 2017, 11:05:26 AM »
Due to the new woundtable scatterbikes are not as hard as they were in 7th though. It's nice because there is a niche for both cannons and lasers on bike now, not sure what to do with catapults.

And I'm really looking forward to field my Vypers with heavy weapons again! I hope for a change/points reduction for starcannons. I love the models and have been playing them with double shurican cannons for a while. They were hardly worth their points, but offered a good mix of mobility and toughness. Depending on how much cheaper they will be they might be really worthwhile then.

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Re: Elder is next.
« Reply #74 on: October 19, 2017, 11:06:26 AM »
Welcome back scatter bike spam! Now cheaper and mobile.

Think I'd still prefer catapults for the bladestorm though.

 Biel-Tan is looking like the best way to run a "craftworld" list, but that may be because it made the best approach from the Index (Shuriken Cannons everywhere) better. But it's also a demi-army wide bonus that you can build for. Probably depends on Dire Avengers being worth it.

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Re: Elder is next.
« Reply #75 on: October 19, 2017, 12:40:45 PM »
In all seriousness I think it's balanced. Windriders aren't troops anymore (with obsec coming back this matters) and have a weaker armor save now. I think the point reduction is good assuming it's not a lot cheaper. They did feel a bit over costed. I'll be happy to field vypers again if they're cheap enough.

I agree Biel-tan is pretty well rounded assuming you are following the "shuriken all the things" the 8th edition version of the rules went. What non-shuriken focus aspects lose from the faction trait is made up for with the new strategems. That extra charge distance for a scorpion bomb is really appealing.

At the same time I am liking the idea of a Saim-hann list using a mix of scatter and shuriken windriders units, Vypers, Shining Spears and some Guardians in wave Serpents. Although a similar list with a lot of shuriken cannons would work as Biel-tan too..Or Ulthwe for "free spirit stones" on all your multi-wound models...
« Last Edit: October 19, 2017, 12:43:49 PM by Partninja »

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Re: Elder is next.
« Reply #76 on: October 19, 2017, 01:18:28 PM »
In all seriousness, altioc will be seen a lot,if they get the -1 to hit. That's a huge deal.
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Offline Rhyleth

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Re: Elder is next.
« Reply #77 on: October 19, 2017, 01:19:21 PM »
I must concur that there seems to be a rather a lot of negativity being expressed towards the information released so far.  I can see a number of the new rules being quite handy and I think that it would be wise to wait for further details before drawing so many negative conclusions.  There seems to be too great an expectation that Eldar should receive unique traits.  I see no reason why this has to be the case.  It helps if there are similarities with traits awarded to other armies, especially in terms of not having to incorporate too many rules into the game.

I'm generally liking what I'm seeing, though we haven't yet seen what if anything has changed about units that needed more than a cost reduction to fix (such as the Fire Prism).

While it was inevitable I'd also have preferred not to have 'Craftworld traits' but instead had 'Warhost traits' that don't demand a specific paintscheme, and allow traits for unit types not associated with a particular Craftworld - while Iyanden can work for a generic Spirit Host, Swordwind for an Aspect Host, Saim-Hann for a Windrider Host and Ulthwe for a Warhost, there's nothing for vehicles, either generically or grav-tanks specifically.


Quote
Regarding new models, I've never understood the constant clamour for new Eldar models.  Many of the old Rogue Trader and second edition models have stood the test of time very well, in my opinion.  The most recent Jes Goodwin sculpts are also very good.  The Jetbikes are dated, I agree, but otherwise I'm more than happy with what is available.

The big issue with the Eldar models is that the Eldar had a major aesthetic makeover in 3rd Edition - the surviving 2nd Ed. models are somewhat akin to having RT Carnifexes or Tyranid Warriors in a Tyranid list. They're somewhat recognisable as coming from the same basic place, but they're stylistically very different. This is especially jarring with the Avatar (which was in all honesty never a great model to begin with, as someone who's played since before it was released) and the Phoenix Lords, but vehicle styles have changed too.

Most of the more recent vehicles have taken elements from the Vyper and Falcon, so they still feel coherent with the rest of the range and were always good models in their own right, but they could still benefit from an update incorporating 'evolved' features. The grav-tanks could benefit from streamlining and incorporating elements from FW kits like the Scorpion, as the Fire Prism turret did when that model was updated - both they and the Vyper look rather squat in comparison with the rest of the range, and the Vyper has suffered further from the jetbike update as it looks pretty dated in comparison. That's on top of elements that are simply stylistically wrong these days - underslung shuriken catapults are the big offender, but the Guardian crew are also from an era before the 3rd Ed. Guardians revised the style for Eldar infantry.

There's also simply a general scale issue with all models from that era - infantry models were bulkier for all armies and weapons larger relative to the rest of the figure. This is glaring with the Warp Spiders, and the malproportioned weapons make otherwise good models like Eldrad look very dated.

Finally the Shining Spears simply haven't been updated in line with the rest of the range - the bright lance (now star lance) doesn't closely resemble the Autarch version and the jetbikes are the now-obsolete models.

Every one of these changes seems necessary, rather than just a subjective would-be-nice update to replace the weaker models in the range like the Dark Reapers.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2017, 01:21:11 PM by Rhyleth »

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Re: Elder is next.
« Reply #78 on: October 19, 2017, 01:33:40 PM »
Looks like shoot + scoot is back, and it can apply to anything! Very exciting. I'm glad they've fixed Fire Prism, as it had serious problems. Still haven't heard about Support Battery though, hopefully there's something in the works for that.

I must concur that there seems to be a rather a lot of negativity being expressed towards the information released so far.  I can see a number of the new rules being quite handy and I think that it would be wise to wait for further details before drawing so many negative conclusions.  There seems to be too great an expectation that Eldar should receive unique traits.  I see no reason why this has to be the case.  It helps if there are similarities with traits awarded to other armies, especially in terms of not having to incorporate too many rules into the game.

I'm generally liking what I'm seeing, though we haven't yet seen what if anything has changed about units that needed more than a cost reduction to fix (such as the Fire Prism).

While it was inevitable I'd also have preferred not to have 'Craftworld traits' but instead had 'Warhost traits' that don't demand a specific paintscheme, and allow traits for unit types not associated with a particular Craftworld - while Iyanden can work for a generic Spirit Host, Swordwind for an Aspect Host, Saim-Hann for a Windrider Host and Ulthwe for a Warhost, there's nothing for vehicles, either generically or grav-tanks specifically.

I am not sure, but I was under the impression that some of these Craftworld traits may apply to vehicles. The Ulthwe one in particular might be good for grav-tanks to keep them alive longer, or perhaps the Iyanden one (if it applies to things other than wraith units) for keeping them shooting more accurately. Until we see specifics on how these traits apply, (with the exception of certain traits we already know about like saim-hann which are biker only) I wouldn't get too down on it.

My army is painted in a custom color scheme and fluff wise is not one of the big 5. I don't think it will be a problem with my friends that I play with though, I'll pick a ruleset that fits best and they won't mind if my custom craftworld uses Iyanden rules even though it's not Iyanden. Whether this is called "warhost" or "craftworld" by the rules doesn't matter for my purposes.
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Re: Eldar is next.
« Reply #79 on: October 19, 2017, 01:45:04 PM »
The style question is highly subjective, but one area where I will disagree is regarding the supposed change heralded by third edition.  All that did was to change the style of the Guardians and their associated weapons platforms and some constructs, such as Wraithlords and War Walkers.  The third edition style Aspect Warriors were awful and almost all of them (Swooping Hawks being the exception) were reverted back to the original Rogue Trader style by Jes Goodwin for the fourth edition Eldar codex.  Rogue Trader and second edition Eldar infantry do not look out of place at all as result.  I use them all the time and apart from the newer models being slightly larger, the differences are negligible.

Going back to the craftworlds, I maintain that it's the narrative of the craftworld and the colour scheme that ought to be the key factor in determining choice.  Those were the elements that persuaded me to opt for Alaitoc when I was young, long before any of the craftworlds had any different rules.  The days of my playing any of the craftwolds are long since over for me, and I suspect that more players these days choose their army based on the bonuses the army receives, but it would be nice to think that some players still choose their craftworld for reasons which go beyond the rules.

Either way, at least it looks as though the craftworlds are not going to receive overpowered bonuses, which was my main concern, so I'm encouraged by the way things are looking on that front.
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