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Offline Calamity

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Re: Improving the Astra Militarum
« Reply #100 on: April 19, 2015, 11:08:52 AM »
If you compare that to a Drop Pod with Deathwind Launchers... a very reasonable comparison... you're 50 points too high.

Plus, you're transporting IG, not Marines. :)

So even with the drill bit and frag launchers you say it should be around 50-55pts?  I'm game for that if people think it's fair. :)

Say, a squadron of 1-3 as a single FA choice?  They should probably be part of a special formation or two as well.

And what sounds better, the large blast launchers or the template launcher?

Offline Spectral Arbor

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Re: Improving the Astra Militarum
« Reply #101 on: April 19, 2015, 03:02:18 PM »
Well, I guess I was a bit overboard there. I wasn't considering the Melta-Hit upon arrival.

65 points is probably reasonable. Tougher than a Chimera [as they are now]. More or less guaranteed to deliver your cargo to wherever you want them. Assuming you don't get half on the first turn, I think that point level would be fair.

I think a 12" large blast has more versatility, whereas the Template [IgCo] would be more useful in certain scenarios. Anything that close to your unit is a problem, though, and I probably wouldn't decide to come up that close to something. I mean, it's no Scatter Laser, no matter how you slice it. ;)

Offline Calamity

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Re: Improving the Astra Militarum
« Reply #102 on: April 19, 2015, 04:15:01 PM »
OK, 65pts and large blast?  Job's a good one.  :)

I think we're almost done here!  I think we've covered pretty much all units, and I don't think there's too many things left to fix, so soon we could start posting sample army lists.

There was a few issues with the fliers still to sort out, and the issue of whither or not voxes should take the maximum range of orders way.  And I didn't get an answer on my Sentinels in 'Platoons' idea.  So there's those still.

Offline Spectral Arbor

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Re: Improving the Astra Militarum
« Reply #103 on: April 19, 2015, 04:40:30 PM »
Even the cheapest sentinels rock in at 105 pts for 3. The most expensive, "Weapons without upgrades," come in at 150 points. So one would need to be wiling to hypothetically want to run more than 3 in a list.

A command squad might have BS 4, or something, maybe a even modified version of the LR Commander "orders" to issue. Command upgrade could be a 30 pt upgrade to a full 3-Man squad, assuming orders are thrown in.

From there... 0-1 Sentinel Command Squad, 1-3 Sentinel Platoon Squads. Kind of like how Scions work in the Guard Dex. I'm not sure about minimum squad sizes.

Offline Calamity

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Re: Improving the Astra Militarum
« Reply #104 on: April 19, 2015, 04:48:42 PM »
Even the cheapest sentinels rock in at 105 pts for 3. The most expensive, "Weapons without upgrades," come in at 150 points. So one would need to be wiling to hypothetically want to run more than 3 in a list.

A command squad might have BS 4, or something, maybe a even modified version of the LR Commander "orders" to issue. Command upgrade could be a 30 pt upgrade to a full 3-Man squad, assuming orders are thrown in.

From there... 0-1 Sentinel Command Squad, 1-3 Sentinel Platoon Squads. Kind of like how Scions work in the Guard Dex. I'm not sure about minimum squad sizes.

Yeah, 1-3 Sentinel Squadrons and 0-1 Sentinel Command Squadron (all the same type, grouped together into an Emperor's Talon Recon Squadron) was what I was thinking.  Actually, maybe this would work better as a Formation?

The Command Sentinel would be BS:4, and uses the 1d6 vehicle order system, issuing orders to other Sentinels only.  I was thinking Move! Move! Move!, Forwards, For The Emperor! and Smite At Wil! for usable orders?

And you guys where OK with them having 'Dunestrider' yes?

Offline Spectral Arbor

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Re: Improving the Astra Militarum
« Reply #105 on: April 19, 2015, 10:39:30 PM »
beslubber yeah. Dunestrider is absolutely a needed thing.

Plus, I want an Armoured Sentinel that can take a CCW. Make it S:8, AP:2. Maybe give him a pair. Rock'em'sock'em Sentinels. I wanna punch stuff with my walkers like everyone else in the game. Except for War Walkers, and ain't nobody got time for them anyhow.

Offline Calamity

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Re: Improving the Astra Militarum
« Reply #106 on: April 20, 2015, 10:36:05 AM »
beslubber yeah. Dunestrider is absolutely a needed thing.

I said this before, but GW should really distinguish between slow moving 'stompers' like Dreadnoughts and Killa Kans, and fast moving 'chicken walkers' like Sentinels and War Walkers.  And Dunestrider does that very well.

With that rule and being issued 'Fowards!', Sentinels could in theory move up to 18'' and still make a shooting attack at full BS.  This finally makes them worthy of being called Fast Attack, and also lets them move in time with Chimeras and Tauroxes, even when going flat out.  That sounds pretty useful to me!

Plus, I want an Armoured Sentinel that can take a CCW. Make it S:8, AP:2. Maybe give him a pair. Rock'em'sock'em Sentinels. I wanna punch stuff with my walkers like everyone else in the game. Except for War Walkers, and ain't nobody got time for them anyhow.

I suppose they could be fitted with lascutters.  They're about that I think.  Stronger in fact.  Then there's Powerlifters.  Weaker, but not Unwieldy...

Offline Spectral Arbor

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Re: Improving the Astra Militarum
« Reply #107 on: April 20, 2015, 04:58:21 PM »
No, power lifters can't even hurt regular Dreads, if I recall correctly. I wanna punch holes in stuff. :)

Offline Calamity

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Re: Improving the Astra Militarum
« Reply #108 on: April 20, 2015, 06:23:10 PM »
No, power lifters can't even hurt regular Dreads, if I recall correctly. I wanna punch holes in stuff. :)

Sounds like Lascutters are the way then.  ;D

Btw, is this the thread to discuss army list building ideas or is it the IG board?

And I've got some ideas for Tank Commander upgrades, some ripped off Forge World but others are original...ish...:

Artificer Hull: The vehicle has +1 HP.
Laud Hailer: The vehicle gains the Voice Of Command special rule.
Spirit Awakened: All snap shots made by the vehicle are at BS:2.

The Artificer Hull is easy to understand, but the others aren't, so let me try.

The Laud Hailer is a big megaphone (probably appearing as a trumpet played by an angel) that allows the officer inside to communicate with the troops outside, and play music and hymns too when the situation calls for it.  This was tricky to get right.  I could have went with a banner like re roll but then that begs the question of why the Sisters one doesn't do that.  I think that this is a happy medium. 

Spirit Awakened represents all the vehicles weapons being given a cognative upgrade (yes, just like Skitarii Cognis weapons).  The tank is now semi-robotic.

What points should these cost?  And should super heavy tanks be able to take these in addition to Leman Russ tank commanders?

Also, I was never happy that Tank Commanders are restricted in their choice of Warlord Traits, so I made these changes:

Tank Commanders may roll a D6 on the IG Warlord Trait table, which has the following changes:

Implacable Determination: If the Warlord is a vehicle, it may ignore the effects of Crew Shaken or Crew Stunned on a D6 roll of 5+.

Bellowing Voice: (a tank commander may now gain this trait, gaining VoC.  Obviously the commander likes to shoot out loud from the cupola  ;)).

Master Of Command: The Warlord gains the Voice Of Command special rule.  If the Warlord already has the Voice Of Command special rule or has the Tank Orders special rule, then it may issue an additional order.

How does all that look?

Offline faitherun (Fay-ith-er-run)

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Re: Improving the Astra Militarum
« Reply #109 on: April 22, 2015, 02:33:23 AM »
If you compare that to a Drop Pod with Deathwind Launchers... a very reasonable comparison... you're 50 points too high.

Plus, you're transporting IG, not Marines. :)

Ah, but a drop pod doesn't give you a str 8 ap 3 large blast when it comes in does it?  Not sure if that's worth 50pts,but that is why imo it's more expensive
So, what your saying is it's not your fault you look stupid by using words you don't get?
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Offline Calamity

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Re: Improving the Astra Militarum
« Reply #110 on: April 22, 2015, 11:39:44 AM »
How about 65pts?  Or maybe 75pts?  The Strength 8, AP 2 Large Blast Ignores Cover Armorbane attack is pretty nasty, but it's also a one time thing and it might not hit anything at all.

And I have a question; Space Marines get Auspexes, Signums and Omniscopes, and the Skitarii get Omnispexes.  Should the IG not get something similar?  Perhaps a device that only works on vehicles?

I can understand Skitarii and Astrates being able to use them thanks to their power armor/cybernetics, but IG infantry don't have any fancy stuff like that.  Even Scions don't have any gear like that I think.  But vehicles are a different story.  And this would allow better cooperation between infantry and vehicles.  What do you guys think?

Offline Halollet

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Re: Improving the Astra Militarum
« Reply #111 on: April 23, 2015, 10:27:37 AM »
Unless I've missed something there hasn't been a lot of focus on the troops in this thread. I play(ed) guard without any tanks and this latest edition sucked all the fun out of that style of play.  I don't want to play the same way every other guard player plays. The army shouldn't be like that, hell tau has multiple ways to set up an army and its just shooting.

So I what I would like to see are some formations that can add a lot of flavor to an army. I've though of some examples.

Penal Legion
Consists of 2 units of conscripts. May swap out lasgun for pistol and ccw, gains FNP 6+, treats all battle brothers as allies of convenience.

Catachan elite
Consists of 3 veteran squads, may not take carapase armour, replace flak armour with 6+ save, gains infiltration.

Al's desert raiders
Al has a custom platoon command, platoon must outflank, may not take HWS or conscripts.

Cherkov conscript hoard
Cherkov has custom PCS, also consists of 3 units of conscripts. Conscript units that are defeated may return from reserve as long as Cherkov is alive.

What do ya think?
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Offline Calamity

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Re: Improving the Astra Militarum
« Reply #112 on: April 23, 2015, 02:49:55 PM »
Unless I've missed something there hasn't been a lot of focus on the troops in this thread. I play(ed) guard without any tanks and this latest edition sucked all the fun out of that style of play.  I don't want to play the same way every other guard player plays. The army shouldn't be like that, hell tau has multiple ways to set up an army and its just shooting.

So I what I would like to see are some formations that can add a lot of flavor to an army. I've though of some examples.

Penal Legion
Consists of 2 units of conscripts. May swap out lasgun for pistol and ccw, gains FNP 6+, treats all battle brothers as allies of convenience.

Catachan elite
Consists of 3 veteran squads, may not take carapase armour, replace flak armour with 6+ save, gains infiltration.

Al's desert raiders
Al has a custom platoon command, platoon must outflank, may not take HWS or conscripts.

Cherkov conscript hoard
Cherkov has custom PCS, also consists of 3 units of conscripts. Conscript units that are defeated may return from reserve as long as Cherkov is alive.

What do ya think?

Damn your right!  We forgot about all the old characters and any formation ideas! :P

If I could make a suggestion, it would be that Al'Rahem and Chenkov be moved to Company Command Squad level.  Al'Rahem should get Grand Strategy as his Warlord Trait, and Chenkov should get Draconian Discipline.  I don't know if this is acceptable but I'd also say that whilst Al'Rahem is alive, all units in the army have Acute Senses (this would be the new Stalk The Enemy).  Chenkov should of course be allowed to recycle Conscript Squads.

My formation for Al'Rahem would be his Company Command Squad, 2 Infantry Platoons and a Scout Sentinel Squadron, all deploying together (one reserve roll!).  One other bonus would be he could roll on the Strategic Warlord Trait list (pray for Master of Ambush!) 

EDIT:

Actually, scratch what I had written there.  Here's a much better idea:

Emperor's Fist Armored Squadron: 3 Squadrons of Leman Russes (no restrictions on size, so 3-9 tanks).  One tank must be designated as Squadron Leader (gains Tank Orders rule).

Emperor's Fist Armored Company: 1 Tank Commander Squadron, 3 Emperor's Fist Armored Squadrons (so that's 10-30 tanks!).  If Commander is Warlord, re-roll warlord Trait on IG table.  I need some sort of special ability for this formation though.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2015, 03:42:15 PM by Skitarii Tangi »

Offline Spectral Arbor

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Re: Improving the Astra Militarum
« Reply #113 on: April 23, 2015, 09:42:10 PM »
10 tanks starts at 1500 points. 30 tanks would be well into Apoc levels. Just for the sake of pointing it out.

Captain Al, in his former glory, is what I'd want more than anything.

He could be a CCS, so long as he lets me outflank a Platoon. :)

Offline Calamity

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Re: Improving the Astra Militarum
« Reply #114 on: April 24, 2015, 10:47:01 AM »
I guess that was a bit excessive.  :P

I can go back to the original suggestion for an Emperor's Fist Armored Company (1 Tank Commander Squadron, 3 Leman Russ Squadrons, so 4-12 tanks) and maybe we can make Squadron Leaders an upgrade for a normal Russ that's in a squadron of at least two vehicles?

Beyond a re roll for Warlord Traits, I'm not sure what special bonus we could give to it though.
 
I have ideas for Al'Rahem here:

WS:4 BS:4 S:3 T:3 W:3 I:3 A:3 LD:9

Wargear: Flak Armour, Plasma Pistol, Claw Of The Desert Tigers, Frag Grenades, Refracter Field.

Warlord Trait: Grand Strategy.

Special Rules: Voice Of Command, Senior Officer, Desert Raider, Stalk The Enemy, Like The Wind

Stalk The Enemy: Whilst Al'Rahem is alive and deployed on the board, all units in the army with the Astra Militarum faction have the Acute Senses special rule.

Desert Raider: Al'Rahem's unit and 3 infantry units in his army with the Astra Militarum faction have the Scout special rule.

Like The Wind: Friendly units within 12'' of Al'Rahem have the Fleet special rule.

Claw Of The Desert Tigers: Range:Melee Strength:User AP:2 Special Rules:Master Crafted.

I hope that is suitably suitable.  There's a potential 7 outflanking infantry units...that should cover an infantry platoon I hope. ;)

One issue I have though is his rank.  Captain seems a bit low.  I'd make him a Major or Colonel or something like that instead.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 10:56:50 AM by Skitarii Tangi »

Offline Calamity

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Re: Improving the Astra Militarum
« Reply #115 on: May 3, 2015, 12:45:28 PM »
This idea came to me today and I'd thought I'd share it here, just to help restart this thread:

Formation: Astra Militarum Task Force:

1 Emperor's Shield Infantry Company (1 CCS, 1 Commissar, 3 Infantry Platoons)
1 Emperor's Fist Armored Company (1 Command Tank Squadron, 3 Battle Tank Squadrons)
1 Emperor's Talon Recon Company (1 Command Sentinel Squadron, 3 Sentinel Squadrons)
1 Emperor's Wrath Artillery Battery (1 CCS with compulsory Master Of Ordinance, 3 Basilisk Squadrons)
1 Lord Of War (Baneblade, Stormblade etc)
1 Valkyrie Assault Carrier Squadron OR 1 Vendetta Gunship Squadron

This formation, the equivalent of a Space Marine Battle Company or Skitarii War Cohort and under the command of a Colonel or General, represents a small IG army formed from multiple sources for independent operations.

At the very least, this Formation will consist of 87 infantry models, 4 Leman Russ tanks, 4 Sentinels, 3 Basilisks, 1 IG flier and 1 Big Tank, and with our revised points costs will cost around about 2000pts (I think  :-\).

Special Rules are:

If this Formation is your Primary Detachment, you can re-roll the result when rolling on the Warlord Traits table in Codex: Astra Militarum.  Furthermore, the range of any orders issued by your Warlord is increased by 12''.

Your Warlord may also roll once on either the Tactical, Command or Strategic Warlord Traits table.

Then there's the special rules of each individual formation (just like Skitarii Battle Maniple and War Cohorts, the units in this formation belong to both).  Which are:

- Emperor's Shield Infantry Company:

All units within this Formation have the Objective Secured special rule (I need something else on top of this but I'm not sure what).

- Emperor's Fist Armored Company: 

All models in this formation within 12'' of the Company Commander may add 3'' to their Movement distance.

- Emperor's Talon Recon Company:

All units within this formation have the Hit And Run Special Rule.

- Emperor's Fury Artillery Battery:

The Emperor's Fury: The MoO in the Formation may use this special shooting attack instead of using a normal Artillery Bombardment shooting attack.  It is resolved before any other unit in the formation makes a shooting attack.  It is also resolved separately from other barrage weapons in the same unit.  Declare how many Basilisk squadrons from the Formation are contributing to the attack.  Squadrons in reserve may still contribute to the attack, and contributors may not make a shooting attack in the same turn that they contribute to the Bombardment.  Then make the attack as follows:

Range: Infinite Strength:9 AP:3 Type: Ordinance x, Apocalyptic Barrage

x is equal to the number of Basilisk contributing to the shot.   

It scatters 2D6'' if a Hit is rolled.  If an arrow is rolled, scatters 3D6''.  If the model has line of sight reduce scatter by his Ballistic Skill.  And yes, it's effected by orders.  8)

How does this look?
« Last Edit: May 3, 2015, 01:27:37 PM by Skitarii Tangi »

Offline Spectral Arbor

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Re: Improving the Astra Militarum
« Reply #116 on: May 3, 2015, 02:33:24 PM »
Pre Lord of War, taking ABSOLUTE MINIMUM CHOICES WITH NO UPGRADES AT ALL the group of units is 1965 points... before a Lord of War.

No guns on the infantry, single Scout Sentinel "squads" with Multi-Lasers, LRBT without upgrades.

So a minimum of about 2500 points, without a single upgrade. Lasguns, lasguns everywhere.

Maybe start with smaller, 500 ish point formations. You can tack that onto 1000 point groups. Or plan on formations that, of themselves, come out to 1000 to 1500 point lists, that can get a bit bigger.

Forcing Bassies, unless you improve them or cheapen them, is a non-starter. No-one seems to take them anyhow, much less 3.

The Big-Block rule isn't all that great, for what you're forced to take. Benefits to Orders when 80% of your points are spent on vehicles is kinda meh. Compare that to Battle Focus where you get a guaranteed "6". The balance point has been shifted Post Decurion. New rules must balance in that environment.

All weapons gain Preferred Enemy, something like that. :) Yeah, I realize it's ridiculous, but so are White Scars Chapter tactics and they're Pre Decurion.

So maybe something smaller. Deal with one piece at a time. Consider the "core" formation of Guard.

Something like... 1x CCS, 1x Platoon, 1x Veterans, 1x Leman Russ and 1x "Artillery" Tank. Approx 740 points, as a base, after upgrades and such. Gets bigger if you want Chimera for the Platoon also... so even that's a big "core" choice. Maybe just CCS, Platoon, 1 Leman Russ or an Artillery Tank. That would bring you back closer to a 500 point chunk to start with.

From there, Scout Group, Armoured Group, Special Ops Group, "Fast" group. Maybe a couple more?

That's more where I'd start, if you're thinking Decurion-Like formations.

Offline Calamity

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Re: Improving the Astra Militarum
« Reply #117 on: May 4, 2015, 05:54:50 PM »
Thanks Spectral.  I guess this was too big.  :P

Companies are the typical IG formation right?  I guess we could start with them.  I think most of what I had could work;

Emperor's Shield Infantry Company:
1 CCS
3 Infantry Platoons

At a bare minimum, that's 80 models at 450pts.  Not a bad start way to start an army.  What sort of bonus should this formation have, beside the re-roll for the IG warlord trait table?

Emperor's Fist Infantry Company:
1 Tank Command Squad
3 Leman Russ Squadrons

Remember we agreed that basic Russes should have a points decrease, to 125.  So at a minimum that's 530pts for 4 tanks.  Again, it should get a re-roll for the IG warlord traits.  And I think a re-roll for tank orders, unless anyone can think of something better?

Offline Halollet

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Re: Improving the Astra Militarum
« Reply #118 on: May 4, 2015, 07:40:38 PM »


Emperor's Shield Infantry Company:
1 CCS
3 Infantry Platoons

At a bare minimum, that's 80 models at 450pts.  Not a bad start way to start an army.  What sort of bonus should this formation have, beside the re-roll for the IG warlord trait table?



Units that successfully receive an order get perfered enemy for the remainder of that phase(turn).

I would love that for my all infantry guard. Ignore cover and rerolls to hit, so sweet.
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Re: Improving the Astra Militarum
« Reply #119 on: May 4, 2015, 08:13:06 PM »

Units that successfully receive an order get perfered enemy for the remainder of that phase(turn).

I would love that for my all infantry guard. Ignore cover and rerolls to hit, so sweet.

Oh, I would love that too!  :D

Preferred Enemy or Twin-Linked?  Which is better?  Re-rolls to hit and wound is pretty sweet.....

 


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