40K Online
The Armies of 40k => Chaos Armies (Marines and Daemons) => Topic started by: Zilverscale on February 12, 2012, 02:14:48 PM
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[gmod]
- Since an update to Codex: Chaos Space Marines is (eventually) inevitable and rumors circulating that the traitor Marines will be in the 6th Edition boxed set, we are at the distant edge of seeing a new army book.
- Rather than quash discussion I am changing this thread to reflect its true nature: speculating about the contents of that Codex. Forgeworld will not write the Codex and probably gave an equivalent POTMS on the Chaos Proteus out of laziness, but it does show fresh attention to the army.
- Specious reasoning based on credible rumors and high hopes for the book can be posted here.
- As usual, credible rumors about the Codex go in The Rumor Mill. The thread is here:
http://www.40konline.com/index.php?topic=218850.0 (http://www.40konline.com/index.php?topic=218850.0)
-Mr.Peanut[/gmod]
Looking at the rules for the LR Armoured Proteus there is a chaos version of the POTMS.
So hopefully that is an indication of getting POTMS back for the chaos LR?
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eventually, quite possibly, personally i dont understand why it was left out in the 4th edition chaos codex.
but then again, the whole reason why CSM pay less points for their land raiders is because of this rule being absent.
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i hope they bring out different versions of the land raider aswell. the only reason i dont take a LR in my chaos army is becuase i dont want an assault vehicle with 2 lascannons lol, i'd rather a redeemer.
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I want a LR that holds more than 5 terms. :-)
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I want the 3.5 codex updated to 5th ed with the 4th ed abortion forgotten.
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You can keep your Raiders. My Dark Apostle wants to be able to summond Deamons with some teeth!
I understand Word Bearers will get the option to summom marked deamons once again....
Woohoo! my 1234th post!!
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Hoping for reaper autocannons on rhinos, or some type of rhino equivalent. And I agree with Nawari, some Landraider variants would be very welcome.
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I would really just love to see cult terminators. That's my one wish. I just want people to be more afraid of my terminators than they are of my troops choices. A rhino variant would be cool, or dread claws. Having Cipher back would be cool too.
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i want to see.. Daemon Engines return. The Subjugator, the Plague Tower, the Pestilence Engines, the Cannon of Khorn and all the sweet epic models they have yet to touch.
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Daemonic animosity!
None of this namby pamby we're all happy together rubbish.
Tzeench hates Nurgle. End of
Slaanesh hates Khorne. End of
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acute senses/night vision free for the Night Lords.
i mean... c'mon.....
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I expect :
- The possessed to get changed again (maybe with bolt pistols this time? and two ccws?)
- Basic stats for most marines to stay the same, with points variations for plague marines/1Ksons
- Av13 dread/defiler type ( and yet another change to dread behavior)
- No fast vehicules
- Probably more "marine-like options" in the list (ex : captain on bike == bikers are troops, gimmicks like that)
- More fluffy/expensive hero-types (dark chaplain/techpriests and shizzles like that)
- If they like us, new demonic troop weapons ( this is however, a looonng shot)
- A change to vehicule demonic possession(maybe some chaosy machine spirit for land raiders)
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I would like to see traditional use of weapons of old since their conversion to Chaos, just better at using those weapons, so lets see an increase in the skills/use of said weapons.
Bring back my 2 wound Rubric marines and flush that useless 4++ save down the toilet, or at least have the options of mixing the two in a single squad much like Grey Knights.
....and for the love of Chaos, isn't Ahriman supposed to be the most powerful Sorcerer in existence? If so, then make it so! Odd how a winged DP with two powers is a better option at a cheaper cost! lets at least make it make sense!
Predators were essentially nerfed by the BRB, so how about those increased skills to use them!
IRON WARRIORS! 4 Heavy slots would be great on the FoC!
Hell, just bring back some variations in the legions, not just a single codex with mild fluff and a single unit! Okay, you know what, just give me my old codex back!
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....and for the love of Chaos, isn't Ahriman supposed to be the most powerful Sorcerer in existence? If so, then make it so! Odd how a winged DP with two powers is a better option at a cheaper cost! lets at least make it make sense!
Technicly, yes, but when one understands 'sorcery' in 40k, Daemon Princes being more powerful makes sense in terms of background. Sorcery is using Daemons as a source of power rather than raw warp energy (as Psykers do) and thus it's perfectly understandabel the a Daemon would be better. Ahriman is also not supposed to be a match for Alpha level psykers, which means he's probably weaker, blow for blow, than senior Eldar Farseers...
Doesn't mean the guy doesn't need some love though. Still, he's one of the only (if not THE only) psyker who can use more than one shooting power. He's pretty potent as he is now.
As someone who regularly plays against Chaos, and who has been frusterated to no end at the fact i can't simply bypass the saves of Rubric Marines like everyone else (they make unbeleivable tarpits for banshees) i would also have to argue that giving them 2 wounds is unessessary. Their great as they are, so long as you use them against the right things.
No tampering with the FoC, please, gods, no more of that. If Chaos does it, it will only be a matter of time before we return to the Craftworld shenanigans, and no one wants that.
What they need, however, are proper Daemon Weapons. None of this generic +X attacks and a special rule nonsense. Bring back the Kai Guns, the Bound Swords, Brass Collars and such.
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As someone who regularly plays against Chaos, and who has been frusterated to no end at the fact i can't simply bypass the saves of Rubric Marines like everyone else (they make unbeleivable tarpits for banshees) i would also have to argue that giving them 2 wounds is unessessary. Their great as they are, so long as you use them against the right things.
I meant in lieu of the invulnerable saves. Bring back the 2 wounds and lose the Inv. save. In the previous codex they were resilient to small arms fire, now they drop just like any other marine except for power weapon wielding units, which there aren't that many units out their that you can't easily avoid just from simple placement on the table and/or use of transports.
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I meant in lieu of the invulnerable saves. Bring back the 2 wounds and lose the Inv. save. In the previous codex they were resilient to small arms fire, now they drop just like any other marine except for power weapon wielding units, which there aren't that many units out their that you can't easily avoid just from simple placement on the table and/or use of transports.
There may not be too many power weapon weilding units out there (though the number is growing quickly) but there is also an increasingly large volume of low AP fire. Thousand Sons shouldn't be resistant to small arms fire, but rather should form a army base which largely negates heavy weapons. They are the ones who can take a plasma cannon, demolisher shell or crack missile to the face and keep on trucking. Your standard power armour save is good proof against small arms, but if you were to change Thousand Sons to 2W, they would lose their ability to withstand the amount of heavy firepower they currently can.
The problem with Thousand Sons lies not in the current stats (save maybe cost) of Thousand Sons, but rather in their application, and as such are in very much the same boat as Shining Spears. They should not be proof against small arms, as that is something a Marine does rather well anyway. Thousand Sons are the anvil against massed, low AP firepower, as their invulnerable save effectivly strips half the potency from heavy weapons (can't do anything about their Strength).
Take, for instance, the new Necrons, who can field both massive amounts of low AP weapons, and plenty of power weapons. I have a Thousand Sons friend who has yet to lose a battle against the new Necrons, simply because the massed invulnerable save negates half their effectiveness. And that's before even taking into account the Thousand Son's own bolters. Their great the way they are, if somewhat overpriced, but what isn't when you look at the Eldar, Chaos and Tau?
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The return of some kind of way to differentiate the main traitor legions ( Night Lords, Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors ) and something that sets them apart, whether it be legion specific upgrades per HQ like the current Codex: Space Marine has, tinkering with the FOC like the older codex, or something else entirely.
Dreadclaws would be nice.
More tinkering with how Dreadnoughts work is probably inevitable.
I would also like to see the removal of Lash of Submission. It just irritates me to no end how lots of people seem to think that if you're not running dual lash princes, you're not even trying to be competitive.
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All I really want is really covered by you previous posters. Seeing as I just started repainting my Chaos Space Marines into Word Bearers I would want a proper way to represent them (i.e. Dark Apostle or Legion-specific rules kind of thing).
More variation and a codex with more versatility (rather than three or four things that are really good contrasted by tons of rubbish) would definetly do it for me :)
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What i want the most is a codex where most units are usable -_-"
Cult terminators would be really nice. As would non-generic demons, but that might be asking for too much content on a single codex.
I would also really like if our dread was made cheap enough to be worth the risk, or had rules that didnt make him nearly unusable.
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I would say a nicer plastic dread model with options and a whole overhaul on the chaos dread to make him a viable option. I think dreads should be an option in chaos that is usable as I could see them making a decent walker kit (to follow in sync with the other releases)
Also to that not some sort of flyer, since everyone else is getting them. Deathclaw drop pods or some sort of razorback equilant. 5th edition relies a lot on transports. Who knows with 6th edition. With chaos probably being the 1st or 2nd release dex in 6th edition hopefully they will give us stuff that we can work with. A little variety would also be nice.
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With GW's switch to resin over pewter, I think it's reasonable to say some models might be up for a facelift, as they haven't been redone in so long, it only makes sense to take advantage of change in medium.
With that out there, Dreads, Raptors and Havoc's are all on the table as possibly getting new models, and possibly new rules and/or upgrades. Oblits are on the table as well, but I can see those just being transferred to Resin without being redone.
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With GW's switch to resin over pewter, I think it's reasonable to say some models might be up for a facelift, as they haven't been redone in so long, it only makes sense to take advantage of change in medium.
With that out there, Dreads, Raptors and Havoc's are all on the table as possibly getting new models, and possibly new rules and/or upgrades. Oblits are on the table as well, but I can see those just being transferred to Resin without being redone.
Raptors already were switched to finecast, so I doubt they'll redo them sadly. I miss the old Oblit models. the new ones look like hamburger meat with guns jammed ino them.
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I really like the cult troops as they are now, I don't find them too overpowered for their points and they do have drawbacks. I'd like to see cult units other than just troops added so like khorne termies with all the differences that a berserker gets over a normal marine. Or tzeentch termies with SaP, inferno bolts, and the improved inv. That kind of stuff.
A more reliable dreadnought would indeed be nice.
Landraiders on parr with everyone elses landraiders. Ours shouldn't be inferiour just because it got a little chaos on it.
Cypher. Nuff said.
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Only wish I truely have is for them to bring legions back again!
Oww and make Oblits T5 again...they get 1 shotted waaaaaaaaaaaay to often now for what they cost! >:(
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According to the newest batch of rumors :
- Some kind of chaos flier ( described as some kind of weird dragon-like thing)
- cultists
There's also buzz that the next edition boxed set will contain some chaos models.
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According to the newest batch of rumors :
- Some kind of chaos flier ( described as some kind of weird dragon-like thing)
- cultists
There's also buzz that the next edition boxed set will contain some chaos models.
Any word on who will be packaged with them?
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Having Possessed reverted to what they were in the last book, with points heavily discounted to match the 5th/6th edition price scale would be great. They were slightly overpriced in the previous environment but were an excellent unit for crashing a party when configured right; fast, deadly, and durable.
I don't understand what direction Chaos should go in, now that Grey Knights have such astonishing individual power. Chaos was supposed to be the top of the pile for concentration of force in 40k, having very expensive but generally effective units (whereas Eldar, for example, pay a high price for high effectiveness while sacrificing durability). Grey Knights could not match this because they were, generally speaking, taken in limited numbers as allies rather than an inclusive force. As it stands, a basic Grey Knight can swat aside a Chaos Marine like a nuisance, and there is no way they are going to make Chaos Marines top that (a reaper in one hand, a lightning claw in the other?). The ancient, baroque, and incredibly deadly slot is clearly taken, will Chaos be relegated to the goofy, mutated magicians again?
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Grey knights were and always have been top of the pile in their corresponding editions, a well structured chaos list back then could be pummeled by a well structured GK list
Chaos are supposed to be like space marines with the crucial difference that their units are specialists, rather than generalised
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Chaos are supposed to be like space marines with the crucial difference that their units are specialists, rather than generalised
This seems like such a generalist and bleh statement... True grit pretty much made the whole 5th ed chaos army reliable and versatile (save the dumbness of fullrandom possessed without a second ccw or crazy dreads).
Of course, zerkers are good in close, plagues are good at living thru hell, 1Ksonsare good at killing marines and sonics are awesome in their crazyness... and yet they are usable outside their area of expertise , especially if you fistup the champ ( compared to say... eldar aspect warriors which are much more a"scalpel-type" units)
There's also buzz that the next edition boxed set will contain some chaos models.
Any word on who will be packaged with them?
Current buzz is some kind of chaos/Dark Angels matchup for the 6th boxed set, but like everything it's unconfirmed.
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The ancient, baroque, and incredibly deadly slot is clearly taken, will Chaos be relegated to the goofy, mutated magicians again?
If that is indeed the case look out on ebay for 3000 points of Word Bearers....
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The ancient, baroque, and incredibly deadly slot is clearly taken, will Chaos be relegated to the goofy, mutated magicians again?
If that is indeed the case look out on ebay for 3000 points of Word Bearers....
''You can't ditch your Chaos. It's so rare finding purists who play a particular god or chapter.
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Don't worry I'm not that fickle but put it this way, since the 4th codex came out I've used them once ??? If another Nerfdex follows they'll simple remain in their Dark Chapel reciting the Word of Lorgar.
Off Topic, has anyone read Aurellian? Its fantastic :)
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It'd be happy if we could purchase or take veteran skills again. This would at least help make the marines a little better then Loyalist ones in specific ways and helps show the fact that many of them are very very old. The Return of DoomRider would make me excited as well. I feel that there could be a lot of work done on the miniature line as well, with so many of the models being finecast or pewter, which shouldn't be the case for troops specifically.
I don't know. I need something to inspire me to play Chaos again. I'm certain what ever they do will do that, as they cannot make the book more bland.
Oww and make Oblits T5 again...they get 1 shotted waaaaaaaaaaaay to often now for what they cost! >:(
Maybe, but they are really powerful with natural toughness 5. Back in the early days of the last codex Iron Warriors were to the Tournament scene as grey knights are to it now. Mostly due to how freaking amazing Obliterators were. When they were FAQ'd to be 4(5) it kept them tough, but stopped them from just fotflstomping everyone.
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I'd like to see the malleus inquisitors daemonweapon be transferred over to chaos, as that thing has so many cool abilities in comparison to the chaos versions
Another thing I'd like to see is the return of the old style daemon prince, where the were essentially just super pimped lords, they could be around 250 points, but they were a wrecking ball, I remember it mine used to run around the board with its daemonic speed slubbing units of marines down like they were guardsmen, ah the chaos glory days
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hmm wish listing lets see.
give us back all of the traitor legions(I want my nightlords back)
return the fact that some gods will not work together korne=/= tzeench,slaneesh=/=nurgle
make our raptors diffrent from assult marines(this might come to pass as I have heard rumors of CSM getting there own assult marines)
give back the veteran traits I liked them (tank hunter auto cannons)
give us a reason to take lords and sorcerers so it is not always 2 DPs as HQ maybe give us retinue options.
an Idea to make the other options viable is to do things like if the lord has a jump pack you can tank assult CSMs as troops or similar things with bikes.
a fast troop transport(this might be the dragon I have heard about but I would like dreadclaw drop pods as well)
a not insane dreadnought upgrade then IU would buy one especially if they make it all plastic.
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return the fact that some gods will not work together korne=/= tzeench,slaneesh=/=nurgle
Those pairs are wrong, the ancient animosity of the Chaos Gods are Slaanesh versus Khorne and Nurgle versus Tzeentch...
As for wishes, I wish for absolutely no legion specific rules, no cult specific entries beyond the standard cult marines we have now and no stupid amount of upgrades. Go further with the warband style and make each Chaos Space Marine squad feel like the veterans they are, both in being adaptable and tricky.
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return the fact that some gods will not work together korne=/= tzeench,slaneesh=/=nurgle
Those pairs are wrong, the ancient animosity of the Chaos Gods are Slaanesh versus Khorne and Nurgle versus Tzeentch...
As for wishes, I wish for absolutely no legion specific rules, no cult specific entries beyond the standard cult marines we have now and no stupid amount of upgrades. Go further with the warband style and make each Chaos Space Marine squad feel like the veterans they are, both in being adaptable and tricky.
Actually this could be done real easy without stupid amounts of upgrades.
The 4 chaos god legions get their stuff through their mark (cannot take other legion upgrades if they have a mark).
World Eaters: No access to psykers, ability to summon GD of Khorne, bloodcrushers, bloodletters and hounds of Khorne instead of undevided daemons
Thousand Sons: Only DP and Sorcerers as HQ, ability to summon GD of Tzeentch horrors, flamers and screamers instead of undevided daemons
Emp's Children: Ability to summon GD of Slaanesh, fiends, daemonettes and seekers instead of undevided daemons
Death Guard: Ability to summon GD of Nurgle, beasts of nurgle, plaguebearers and nurglings instead of undevided daemons
Iron Warriors: Lord with Iron Warrior upgrade. Result: undevided daemons 0-1, no GD, lose 1 elie and fast attack but gain 1 heavy support
Night Lords: Lord with Night Lord ugrade. Result: All units gain accute senses
Black Legion: Is current codex rules.
Word Bearers: Lord with Word Bearer upgrade. Result: may summon any daemon, lose 1 elite, 1 fast attack and 1 heavy support but gains 2 troops. Daemons become scoring.
Alpha Legion: Lord with Alpha Legion upgrade. Result: All units gain infiltrate, if a dedicated transport is choosen they loose infiltrate. Access to cultists who can summon undevided daemons (not GD).
Or something like that.
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Modifying the FOC is, IMO, a total no-go. Those days are gone, and i for one shall not weep over them...
I would prefer, and think it more likely, that each Legion will have (at least) one character which modifies where units sit in the FOC (IE Havocs become Troops for Iron Warriors, Raptors for Night Lords etc).
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Modifying the FOC is, IMO, a total no-go. Those days are gone, and i for one shall not weep over them...
I would prefer, and think it more likely, that each Legion will have (at least) one character which modifies where units sit in the FOC (IE Havocs become Troops for Iron Warriors, Raptors for Night Lords etc).
Actually this is being brought back.
Especially seeing as more and more tournies allow FW lists/models/characters.
Some of which change FOC's or have different FOC's (IA11 Farseer, Tyrants Legion army list)
And it is actually the same as that characters change the FOC slot for units (only less powerfull....6 units of Havocs would be way to powerfull)
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Zilverscale essentially summed up the previous codex!
If Word Bearers gained the ability to take 8 Troops of CSM then I would certainly play that and exploit every single objective style game! Who wouldn't want this, CSM units as is are fantastic, take 8 of them and you would be hard to lose a game.
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Zilverscale essentially summed up the previous codex!
If Word Bearers gained the ability to take 8 Troops of CSM then I would certainly play that and exploit every single objective style game! Who wouldn't want this, CSM units as is are fantastic, take 8 of them and you would be hard to lose a game.
Hmm maybe put a limit on it then max 4 csm units and rest daemons ;)
(no access to cult troops)
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Actually this is being brought back.
Especially seeing as more and more tournies allow FW lists/models/characters.
Some of which change FOC's or have different FOC's (IA11 Farseer, Tyrants Legion army list)
FW rules should never, IMO, be used as a basis for wishlisting standard game rules any more than Legendary Items should be used in regular Fantasy games.
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Actually this is being brought back.
Especially seeing as more and more tournies allow FW lists/models/characters.
Some of which change FOC's or have different FOC's (IA11 Farseer, Tyrants Legion army list)
FW rules should never, IMO, be used as a basis for wishlisting standard game rules any more than Legendary Items should be used in regular Fantasy games.
Hmm and why not seeing as FW now put 40k approved stamps on their sheets meaning they can be used in normal games without opponents consent.
But that is another discussion (which I believe has been held in full extend in the rules forum a while back)
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Zilverscale essentially summed up the previous codex!
Indeed, which is the problem. The previous codex was severely flawed and the idea of catering to the legions that do not exist in such a shape or form on but the rarest occasions is just silly, the kind of list Zilverscale made is exactly the kind of thing I would loathe to see in the new codex. I hope they expand on the warband route and makes it possible to make characterful groups of Marines, not the fake legion lists which people claim are fluffy while they realy are not.
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I'm with Zilverscale. I want Legion orientated options.
Renegades are simply SMurfs with a very unimaginative red cross over their livery. lame, lame, lame.
But Legions have to be done carefully to avoid the Oblit spam we were used to in the previous codex. If fact any kind of Spam (LashPrince spam ::) )
The HQ unlock options are do-able. This list would also let you feild an unaligned warband if you so chose.
As Zilverscale has already pointed out messing with the FOC has not gone away the Mymeara Farseer in IA11 does just this (but I'm not getting into the IA vs codex list argument, although to me its not an argument)
I think the army should be able to be tailored to how you want it. obviously oconstraints will have to be in place but I like the wide scope of the last codex. The present one size fits all list just doesn't sit right with me considering the notion that Choas is the application of all eventualities.
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Renegades are simply SMurfs with a very unimaginative red cross over their livery. lame, lame, lame.
No, renegades is what Chaos Space Marines are. Legions are lame, lame, lame since that is clearly not how Chaos works in the background and has never been the case for how Chaos works. Also, the legion route is very much more "simply SMurfs" than what Chaos used to be, it is basically just evil chapters with a gimmick of their own just like their loyalist counter part, lacking much of what Chaos used to be and, in my opinion, should be about. Legion/Chapter oriented Space Marines was a bad move to make, GW has realised that too so any such return would be most unwanted.
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Renegades are simply SMurfs with a very unimaginative red cross over their livery. lame, lame, lame.
No, renegades is what Chaos Space Marines are. Legions are lame, lame, lame since that is clearly not how Chaos works in the background and has never been the case for how Chaos works. Also, the legion route is very much more "simply SMurfs" than what Chaos used to be, it is basically just evil chapters with a gimmick of their own just like their loyalist counter part, lacking much of what Chaos used to be and, in my opinion, should be about. Legion/Chapter oriented Space Marines was a bad move to make, GW has realised that too so any such return would be most unwanted.
Background wise, Benis is spot on as usual. Even amongst those who were formerly from the Legions, most Chaos Space Marines function in warbands organized around the whims of its Lord, not based on some codified tactical norm associated with largely extinct Legions.
Chaos Space Marines need more options, yes, but not strict legion-lines. That limits them, when their very nature is to be random, capricious and completely unpredictable.
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Personally if we getsomemarine stile options like :
chaos lord + mark == that mark's troops count as troops
or chaos lord + bike/jetpack == bikers/jetpackers as troops
.. i would be happy.
if i have to take a special named character to do that i wouldn't be happy tho.
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No, renegades is what Chaos Space Marines are. Legions are lame, lame, lame since that is clearly not how Chaos works in the background and has never been the case for how Chaos works. Also, the legion route is very much more "simply SMurfs" than what Chaos used to be, it is basically just evil chapters with a gimmick of their own just like their loyalist counter part, lacking much of what Chaos used to be and, in my opinion, should be about. Legion/Chapter oriented Space Marines was a bad move to make, GW has realised that too so any such return would be most unwanted.
Chaos Space Marines need more options, yes, but not strict legion-lines. That limits them, when their very nature is to be random, capricious and completely unpredictable.
Background wise, Benis is spot on as usual. Even amongst those who were formerly from the Legions, most Chaos Space Marines function in warbands organized around the whims of its Lord, not based on some codified tactical norm associated with largely extinct Legions.
Benis maybe right according to the fluff but thats not how the system works and neither is it relevenat in a wishlisting thread.
You and Benis want to see a progression of the warband idea. Thats cool, I'll even go with that so long as they make it more interesting. Like someone said earlier, they can't make the dex more bland ;)
Personally I, and others, like the Legion specific idea. I don't specifically want some codified 'rules' per se as you're right Lach, this wouldn't feel right. However I would like to see a way how I can tailor my CSM to portray the look and feel of my chosen legion. I'm a Word Bearers fan and so I'd like to see some credible way of creating, at very least, a Dark Apostle. I'd also like to see a nod in the direction of our mastery over the use of Daemons. Now this can be done with the existing codex but its nothing more than fluff and a paint job in reality.
I think when the last codex came out a lot of people were disenfranchised. The power cheese mongers amongst us simply moved from 9 Oblit Iron warriors armies to dual Lash Princes without a 'by your leave' However, us more fluff orientated players were kinda left out. That's how I felt anyway.
I have no objection to a warband-esq style of list and Benis is right the fluff points towards that being a more plausible stlye of army you may encounter but with such a rich tapestry of fluff, especially since the Heresy novels, it would be amiss in my opinion if GW wasn't going to cater for that someway.
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I have no objection to a warband-esq style of list and Benis is right the fluff points towards that being a more plausible stlye of army you may encounter but with such a rich tapestry of fluff, especially since the Heresy novels, it would be amiss in my opinion if GW wasn't going to cater for that someway.
So unlike all the other codices Chaos Space Marines have to be locked into the 31th millennium instead of actually being, you know, 40k?
To have certain capacities that can be used to represent different legions or different warbands would be fine, so long as the book isn't geared towards it. The static, unimaginary style Chaos had by the beginning of 4th edition was a monstrosity towards what Chaos is and it left the codex with too many masters to serve. Better to leave broad tools for customisation that fits with the warbands and can be used to loosely represent legions but that shouldn't be their prime function.
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So unlike all the other codices Chaos Space Marines have to be locked into the 31th millennium instead of actually being, you know, 40k?
ha ha, no I wasn't suggesting this. That really would be daft.
To have certain capacities that can be used to represent different legions or different warbands would be fine, so long as the book isn't geared towards it. The static, unimaginary style Chaos had by the beginning of 4th edition was a monstrosity towards what Chaos is and it left the codex with too many masters to serve. Better to leave broad tools for customisation that fits with the warbands and can be used to loosely represent legions but that shouldn't be their prime function.
I totally agree. I don't think the book should be expressivly "this is what Thousands Sons look like" end of argument, shut the book. That would be going too far and would be a disservice to all the unaligned Warbands / chapters / etc...
I think the best aspect of the 4th edition was the ability to customise your army. I could make a pretty good Word Bearers army. You could also make a World Eaters Army and be happy with it. Or you could simply use the Black Legion rules and create your own warband, renegades, heretics whatever.
I personally don't think the 4th ed codex was static. I think the way it was used was used by some people was very static but you can't help that ??? But there was also a lot of vairation.
The Warband fits well with me personally as a Word Bearer as after the heresy most of the legion fell apart and warbands arose as a Dark Apostle grew in power and attained a following. However as I said before there is no distinguishing my army from anyone elses save a paint job. I'd like to see some rules options such as those I mentioned before (not the pithy daemonic animosity comment, that was a joke ;) ) a Dark Apostle HQ choice would be good for the book as a wholoe not just as a Word Bearer. I don't want to get into Legion specifics but I don't think its impossible to cater for the two camps of thought.
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I personally don't think the 4th ed codex was static. I think the way it was used was used by some people was very static but you can't help that ??? But there was also a lot of vairation.
You are talking about the second Codex: Chaos Space Marines of the 3rd edition, right? Just so we both are on the same track. It was very static since there was little reason to play anything other than the specific legions, each one had significant advantages and the whole mess was geared towards making people field legions instead of using the basic list. Given the advantages build into each legion list you could be pretty certain of what to expect by simply knowing which legion in question you faced, each legion list was basically a mono-build of boredom that people fielded and claimed to be fluffy while doing so.
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Well that sounds like a horrible, horrible state of affairs!!
No I'm talking about the third codex. The previous one to the current. Its hayday was in 4th edition. Or 4.5th ed if you count the abomination of the first assault rules revision. (although for a brief time my Eldar Banshees were awesomly awesome!)
I felt with the release of the current dex GW dumbed down the entire CSM list. The whole shift on to renegades and the emphasis on Huron Blackheart, (who lets face it is a fart in the wind compared to Kharn, Abaddon Arihman etc... ) really did the list a diservice. I think its a direction I resented GW taking. The way I saw if GW nerfed my army overnight and I've played with it once since.
Ok... I realised we've hijacked this thread and taken it off the tracks widly so fearing the wrath of the Gods mods I'm going to attempt to get it back on track.
What I want to see;
I want to see options to enable the selection of Legion specific traits.
These should be both a boon and a restriction to those who choose them.
For example;
Alpha Legion: Whole army gets infiltrate but no access to armour, Mark; No mark, cannot summon deamons.
Black Legion: Standard Codex army (Ultramarine but WAY meaner ;) ) Any Mark
Deathguard: T5 standard, may take 0-2 Havocs as troops(not the compulsory choices) . Mark; Nurgle only
Emperors Children: I5 standard, Noise marines as troops, Mark; Slaanesh only
Iron Warriors: Access to seige equipment / specialist dreads but no access to bikes, raptors or army can't sweep in n cc. Mark; HQ undivided only, all other any mark.
Night Lords: 0-2 raptors + 0-2 bikes as troops (non compilsory) cannot take heavy armour Mark; HQ undivided only, all other any mark.
Thousand Sons: 5++ save for all infantry, some cool psychic stuff, Mark Tzeentch only.
Word Bearers: May select minor daemons from codex daemons as (not scoring) troops, Mark; undivided only.
World Eaters: Can take Beserkers as troops. Cannot take any other mark than the mark of Khorne.
Other: restore Oblits to how they were but restict to 0-1 per army and possibly a points hike.
Land raider varients.
More daemon engines. Blight drones. some sort of Talos for Slaanesh armies...
Ok this is all just rattled off the top of my head now as I'm bored at work and waiting to go into a meeting.
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One thing I'd like (and always wanted) is a Cultist option in the codex. What fun is it, honestly, to be the dominators of worlds and the kings of warp space and what-not and not to have any kind of chaff to kick around?
Put it in any slot you like, restrict it however you like, but I'd just like to be able to field a couple large units of cheap, disposable, low-Ld chaff with various cut-rate weapons and no transport option. This would open up some interesting strategic options to a list that, frankly, operates almost exactly the same as Loyalist lists, and it would be fun to play around with. It would also create some interesting wargear opportunities, perhaps give Fabius Bile something to do (experimenting on already genetically superior superhumans always seems a bit redundant to me), and open up opportunities to run Alpha Legion lists with lots of locals subverted to their cause backing them up.
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One thing I'd like (and always wanted) is a Cultist option in the codex. What fun is it, honestly, to be the dominators of worlds and the kings of warp space and what-not and not to have any kind of chaff to kick around?
Put it in any slot you like, restrict it however you like, but I'd just like to be able to field a couple large units of cheap, disposable, low-Ld chaff with various cut-rate weapons and no transport option.
The rumor mill says your wishes are about to become true, but honestly getting crap disposable troops is no trade for having cult marines as troops ( like we have now). Meanwhile, i'll try to come up with interesting things to do for the autogun/autocannon crowd.
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I just want my Noise Marine army to be able to have 4 Blastmasters in a Havoc squad. This would please Slaanesh.
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One thing I'd like (and always wanted) is a Cultist option in the codex. What fun is it, honestly, to be the dominators of worlds and the kings of warp space and what-not and not to have any kind of chaff to kick around?.
Would definately be nice to add some cannon fodder or minions to a list. (not to mention a cheap way to add some extra bodies) I think some cultists or some traitors should be available. It would make chaos stand out a bit from the usual MEQ crowd.
I just hope Matt Ward doesn't get another go at making yet another cheesinator MEQ codex.... *cringe* *twitch* I would like to see CSM be somewhat competative but not over the top.
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So, the new Daemons models came out...you guys don't think that means that was the big "chaos thing" and now there won't be a codex, do you?
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I do think that was the 'big chaos release' being rumored recently. That doesn't mean a Chaos Legions Codex isn't coming, it just means it isn't coming as soon as we hoped. I'd be surprised if it wasn't released in or around the same time as the rumored Boxed Set, since that's supposed to involve Chaos and even units we don't have rules for yet.