Topic: Venom Cannon useless?

[lord_guru32]

imo (from my experiences) i face a heck of alot av 13+ vehicles. the thing is almost everyone uses som e av13+ vehicles but only some people use av12 or less. also (as ive said) twin linking the strangler is unfair seeing as that makes it cost more than the single VC. also even vrs av12 the VC practically matches a tl strangler so even if av 12 is msot common (11 or less is rare apart from rear and getting a fex there is unlikely) the VC should be better as it costs less. so pt for pt (and in general) a VC on a 'fex will out preform a BS on anything 12 and over (the most common) pt for pt and in general.

[-Makenshi-]

If you wish to do the calculations this way, I will twin-link the stranglers, using the argument that nobody I know twin-links VCs due to their (very) limited effectiveness - even if they are better vs vehicles, most units are low toughness infantry. The calculations would then run as follows: (etc)

But that wasn't a twin linked venom cannon. Now you're comparing a twin linked barbed strangler to a normal venom cannon

I gave reasons for it, read again please.

Flawed reasons.

You are comparing an upgraded weapon with an un-upgraded weapon. If people don't use T-L VCs then compare normal VCs to a normal BS' instead of deliberately skewing your results to favour the BS, as that is what you seem to be doing.

~MTWC

[Arcas]

 

I gave reasons for it, read again please.

Could you point me towards them? The only thing which i saw which could be interpreted that way was this:

If you wish to do the calculations this way, I will twin-link the stranglers, using the argument that nobody I know twin-links VCs due to their (very) limited effectiveness - even if they are better vs vehicles, most units are low toughness infantry.

But that doesn't make any sense whatsoever! There is absolutely no justification for saying that a twin linked barbed strangler compared to a single venom cannon is a fair comparison in any way. You use up two weapon symbiotes for the strangler but grant the venom cannon only one, with no use for the empty weapon slot considered as compensation.
And for the record, a TL barbed strangler is clearly less effective against vehicles than the combination of venom cannon and barbed strangler.

I also mentioned several other reasons the BS is better besides the ability to penetrate.

Against vehicles there is pretty much none. It's better as a troop killer, but that's all. Against vehicles, the venom cannon clearly is the weapon of choice.

Besides, if mounted on a Carnifex, he will see over most terrain anyways.

The weapon being mounted 2" over the table doesn't help at all if the terrain which obscures the target vehicle isn't right in front of the carnifex. And in case of level 2 area terrain it's a complete non-issue. And then there is also "skimmers moving fast" and smoke launchers...

[ultimabond]

I can list all the AV13+ vehicles too! Of course, I can also list those of AV12 and under, for example the Rhino, probably the most common SM vehicle.

It's like saying that numbers from 1 to 5 are in the majority of all numbers, by saying, "Look how many numbers there are! one, two, three, four, and five, therefore they must be in the majority!"

i dont see how its like saying the majority of numbers are 1 to 5 seeing i never said that those tanks were the majority i just said common.

everybody knows 90% of vehicles are not AV 12 or under or a skimmer. seeing i named 5 AV 13 or over you would have to list 45 vehicles that are not  .

most vehicles that are AV 12 or under and not skimmers do not pose much of a threat (a rhino or razorback may be more common then a predator annilhator but scoring roughly 2.2 lascannon hits a turn its much more damaging and a priority to take out or supress from turn 1)

[Talos Claw]

twin linking the strangler is unfair seeing as that makes it cost more than the single VC...

Why...single Stranglers cost less than a single VC. Does that make it unfair to compare them? by which logic, I should do some compensations in effectiveness to make up for it anyways?

the VC should be better as it costs less.

In my experience, things that cost less are usually worse, not better.

Flawed reasons.

You are comparing an upgraded weapon with an un-upgraded weapon. If people don't use T-L VCs then compare normal VCs to a normal BS' instead of deliberately skewing your results to favour the BS, as that is what you seem to be doing.

How about looking at this separate comparison?

Close combat Warriors are often given rending claws. Carnifexes are not, due to their strength, and the fact that they are MCs and ignore armour anyways, and the fact that they could be given a more useful bioweapon.

If we were comparing the two, would it be "unfair" to assume that the Warriors were given Rending Claws?

If you wish to do the calculations this way, I will twin-link the stranglers, using the argument that nobody I know twin-links VCs due to their (very) limited effectiveness - even if they are better vs vehicles, most units are low toughness infantry.

But that doesn't make any sense whatsoever! There is absolutely no justification for saying that a twin linked barbed strangler compared to a single venom cannon is a fair comparison in any way. You use up two weapon symbiotes for the strangler but grant the venom cannon only one, with no use for the empty weapon slot considered as compensation.

Scything Talons are a nice choice, or twin-linked devourers. Otherwise the Fex would do absolutely nothing against a guy who decided not to bring vehicles.

And for the record, a TL barbed strangler is clearly less effective against vehicles than the combination of venom cannon and barbed strangler.

True, I agree. However, I find that mixing weapons that are best against different troop types does not work, since you can only shoot at one target. If you want to shoot at infantry, the VC will be pretty much wasted. Vice versa, it's not so bad, but there are only a limited supply of vehicles on any given battlefield.

It's like giving a Crisis a Burst Cannon + Plasma Rifle with no multi-tracker...

I can list all the AV13+ vehicles too! Of course, I can also list those of AV12 and under, for example the Rhino, probably the most common SM vehicle.

It's like saying that numbers from 1 to 5 are in the majority of all numbers, by saying, "Look how many numbers there are! one, two, three, four, and five, therefore they must be in the majority!"

everybody knows 90% of vehicles are not AV 12 or under or a skimmer. seeing i named 5 AV 13 or over you would have to list 45 vehicles that are not.

OK. Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino.

I didn't say they had to be different types of vehicles. I said that 90% of vehicles you will face on the tabletop fall into this category.

Come to think of it 90% was a bit of an exaggeration...I was just trying to get my point across.

most vehicles that are AV 12 or under and not skimmers do not pose much of a threat (a rhino or razorback may be more common then a predator annilhator but scoring roughly 2.2 lascannon hits a turn its much more damaging and a priority to take out or supress from turn 1)

$

I never said anything about threat level. And besides, if you have a high-threat vehicle, you want to take it out, not just stun it - meaning the VC wouldn't be that good anyways. Winged Tyrants or Zoanthropes would work better.

[ultimabond]

I never said anything about threat level. And besides, if you have a high-threat vehicle, you want to take it out, not just stun it - meaning the VC wouldn't be that good anyways. Winged Tyrants or Zoanthropes would work better.

i play a fast army and i find it CRITICAL that high fire power vehicles don't fire in the 1-2 turns they have to fire on me before i hit CC which then leaves those vehicles to target my sniper fexes with 5 wounds in 4+ cover being the only real target.

i find winged tyrants and zoanthropes to be a little unreliable having a large tendency to get killed before they can do the job. hive tyrants in particular as a smart player will just move his vehicle over 6" before the turn it is charged if it does not think it can kill it and the tyrant needs 6s to hit in CC. also because the tyrant does not count as locked in CC its as good as dead the next turn being out of cover and in sight of everything with rapid firing plasma guns hurting lots.

[Hivemind]

One issue that I have with comparing a VC to a TL Barbed Strangler was that one of the benefits of the 'strangler was that it was less expensive than a VC. 

As far as the argument for usefulness against vehicles goes, marines/chaos are really the only army that have ground AV 11 vehicles with Rhinos and Whirlwinds.  My experience has been that although Rhinos should be common they are not.  Of the last 3 marine opponents I played only one fielded Rhinos.  One of the others had a Whirlwind, Land Raider, Dread and Predator while the last had two Preds.  I see Chaos opponents field Defilers and Preds mostly, very few use rhinos.  This may be peculiar to my area (Philadelphia) but it seems to me that the majority of vehicles that you'll actually see are AV 12 or better because of the survivability that these offer.

[Arcas]

twin linking the strangler is unfair seeing as that makes it cost more than the single VC...

Why...single Stranglers cost less than a single VC. Does that make it unfair to compare them? by which logic, I should do some compensations in effectiveness to make up for it anyways?

But the difference in cost of a TL barbed strangler to a venom cannon is bigger than the difference of cost of a venom cannon to a barbed strangler.
If you want to set things into relation, then divide the results of the damage tables by the total cost of the carnifex

Scything Talons are a nice choice, or twin-linked devourers. Otherwise the Fex would do absolutely nothing against a guy who decided not to bring vehicles.

Then include them in the math. Else you're skewing the results

And for the record, a TL barbed strangler is clearly less effective against vehicles than the combination of venom cannon and barbed strangler.

True, I agree. However, I find that mixing weapons that are best against different troop types does not work, since you can only shoot at one target. If you want to shoot at infantry, the VC will be pretty much wasted. Vice versa, it's not so bad, but there are only a limited supply of vehicles on any given battlefield.

It's like giving a Crisis a Burst Cannon + Plasma Rifle with no multi-tracker...

That analogy is lacking, as the combination of BS and VC very clearly is the most effective layout against vehicles, and it's still reasonably effective againsty infantry. The tau counterpart excels nowhere, while the carnifex does.
Besides, i believe you underestimate what this layout can do to infantry. Often the venom cannon will make up for a failed to wound roll or a missed model in a unit and help you to get the torrent of fire nominated armour save. And different to a devourer that armour save will have to be taken at least against a S8 hit...this can be quite some fun if one assigns such a hit to a HQ character in a retinue...

OK. Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino.

I didn't say they had to be different types of vehicles. I said that 90% of vehicles you will face on the tabletop fall into this category.

Make that this:
Obscured Rhino, Rhino, ObscuredRhino, Rhino, Smoked Rhino, Obscured Rhino, Rhino, Smoked Rhino, Obscured Rhino, Rhino, Obscured Rhino, Rhino, Smoked Rhino, Obscured Rhino, Rhino, Smoked Rhino, Obscured Rhino, Rhino, Smoked Rhino, Obscured Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Obscured Rhino, Rhino, Smoked Rhino, Obscured Rhino, Rhino, Obscured Rhino, Smoked Rhino, Obscured Rhino, Rhino, Obscured Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Obscured Rhino, Smoked Rhino, Rhino, Obscured Rhino, Smoked Rhino, Obscured Rhino, Rhino, Obscured Rhino, Smoked Rhino, Obscured Rhino, Rhino.

I never said anything about threat level. And besides, if you have a high-threat vehicle, you want to take it out, not just stun it - meaning the VC wouldn't be that good anyways. Winged Tyrants or Zoanthropes would work better.

The only thing which does more damage there would be three zoas, but these won't be able to fire the concentrated blast from turn one. And, of course, in the end they won't do any damage in close combat.

[NidFood]

I admire how you are trying to show the BS is a great tank hunting weapon, but it's not compared to the VC.  Keep in mind, it's ok if Nids don't blow up a tank right away, so a VCs glancing is fine as we're concerned about stopping the tank from shooting.  Even a TLed BS will only hit 75% of the time.

I too rarely face rhinos.  Dreads, Predators, Land Raiders and Speeders are the most common, among other races vehicles.  Rhinos were gimped with 4th edition, so are rarely used.  They should be common, but aren't.

I don't know why you're argueing for a TLed BS, when possibly the best combo for a tank hunting fex is a BS + VC.  You get the best of both worlds, cost a shade bit more than a TLed BS, but get 3 times the shots.

[-Makenshi-]

Flawed reasons.

You are comparing an upgraded weapon with an un-upgraded weapon. If people don't use T-L VCs then compare normal VCs to a normal BS' instead of deliberately skewing your results to favour the BS, as that is what you seem to be doing.

How about looking at this separate comparison?

Close combat Warriors are often given rending claws. Carnifexes are not, due to their strength, and the fact that they are MCs and ignore armour anyways, and the fact that they could be given a more useful bioweapon.

If we were comparing the two, would it be "unfair" to assume that the Warriors were given Rending Claws?

Your reasoning is flawed again. If you want to compare weapons then they must be the only variables. If you compare a CC Carnifex with a CC Warrior then of course you don't give the Fex Rending Claws as it's a waste of points, just as many see givign Warriros two pairs of Talons is worse than a pair of Talons and Rending Claws. You are comparing a unit to a unit, and the unit's inherent stregths and weakness (Fex has lower I, is a Monstrous Creature etc. etc. etc.) must be taken into account.

If you want to compare weapons then you need to compare them on a number of the units that can use them and by having only the weapons as the variable.

However what you are doing is using biased examples to provide biased results, you want to compare a VC to a Strangler? Fine, but compare those weapons in their purest form, not against a single shot (the a Venom Cannon will get at least 2) nor giving one weappon a clear advanatage by Twin-Linking it.

~MTWC

[Talos Claw]

However what you are doing is using biased examples to provide biased results, you want to compare a VC to a Strangler? Fine, but compare those weapons in their purest form, not against a single shot (the a Venom Cannon will get at least 2) nor giving one weappon a clear advanatage by Twin-Linking it.

I told you, if you are willing to listen, then either agree or refute it (instead of sidestepping) I will tell you again.

Twin-linking a Venom Cannon is only very rarely done, and its benefits to the weapon are far less than twin-linking a Strangler. This is mainly because the Strangler has fewer shots and therefore needs to make them count. In addition, the use of the VC is relegated almost solely to anti-vehicle, and using both your weapon slots on something that can easily become pretty much useless throughout the game is not a smart thing to do, especially given a Fex's cost.

I don't know why you're argueing for a TLed BS, when possibly the best combo for a tank hunting fex is a BS + VC.  You get the best of both worlds, cost a shade bit more than a TLed BS, but get 3 times the shots.

I already agreed here. However, against most other targets (i.e. infantry) it is pretty much redundant, and therefore in most cases a twin-linked BS would be preferable.

I never said anything about threat level. And besides, if you have a high-threat vehicle, you want to take it out, not just stun it - meaning the VC wouldn't be that good anyways. Winged Tyrants or Zoanthropes would work better.

i play a fast army and i find it CRITICAL that high fire power vehicles don't fire in the 1-2 turns they have to fire on me before i hit CC which then leaves those vehicles to target my sniper fexes with 5 wounds in 4+ cover being the only real target.

As I Said. When you have a high threat vehicle you don't want to stun it, you want to take it out. Even vs say, an AV14 vehicle, a Carnifex VC will only cause a "Stunned" or better result one in four turns. That is not enough.

twin linking the strangler is unfair seeing as that makes it cost more than the single VC...

Why...single Stranglers cost less than a single VC. Does that make it unfair to compare them? by which logic, I should do some compensations in effectiveness to make up for it anyways?

But the difference in cost of a TL barbed strangler to a venom cannon is bigger than the difference of cost of a venom cannon to a barbed strangler.
If you want to set things into relation, then divide the results of the damage tables by the total cost of the carnifex

Scything Talons are a nice choice, or twin-linked devourers. Otherwise the Fex would do absolutely nothing against a guy who decided not to bring vehicles.

Then include them in the math. Else you're skewing the results

That is what I was suggesting.

OK. Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Rhino.

I didn't say they had to be different types of vehicles. I said that 90% of vehicles you will face on the tabletop fall into this category.

Make that this:
Obscured Rhino, Rhino, ObscuredRhino, Rhino, Smoked Rhino, Obscured Rhino, Rhino, Smoked Rhino, Obscured Rhino, Rhino, Obscured Rhino, Rhino, Smoked Rhino, Obscured Rhino, Rhino, Smoked Rhino, Obscured Rhino, Rhino, Smoked Rhino, Obscured Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Obscured Rhino, Rhino, Smoked Rhino, Obscured Rhino, Rhino, Obscured Rhino, Smoked Rhino, Obscured Rhino, Rhino, Obscured Rhino, Rhino, Rhino, Obscured Rhino, Smoked Rhino, Rhino, Obscured Rhino, Smoked Rhino, Obscured Rhino, Rhino, Obscured Rhino, Smoked Rhino, Obscured Rhino, Rhino.[/quote]

Last I checked, a) Rhinos can only smoke once per game and b) Fexes could see over most terrain rendering Obscured useless.

I never said anything about threat level. And besides, if you have a high-threat vehicle, you want to take it out, not just stun it - meaning the VC wouldn't be that good anyways. Winged Tyrants or Zoanthropes would work better.

The only thing which does more damage there would be three zoas, but these won't be able to fire the concentrated blast from turn one. And, of course, in the end they won't do any damage in close combat.
[/quote]

They are a far better choice for dedicated tank hunting, as they are cheaper etc, and also provide synapse. On the other hand, your Carnifexes could be wiping out hundreds of say, Guardsmen, with a Barbed Strangler.


Come to think of it, I would like to add another point. A Carnifex tooled to take out infantry (shooting or in close combat) is far more effective than one tooled to take out, or even suppress, tanks.

[-Makenshi-]

I told you, if you are willing to listen, then either agree or refute it (instead of sidestepping) I will tell you again.

Don't treat me like an idiot who can't read, I know what you said and I disagree with it because it is a poor excuse and only serves to skew your results to what you want them to show.

Twin-linking a Venom Cannon is only very rarely done, and its benefits to the weapon are far less than twin-linking a Strangler. This is mainly because the Strangler has fewer shots and therefore needs to make them count. In addition, the use of the VC is relegated almost solely to anti-vehicle, and using both your weapon slots on something that can easily become pretty much useless throughout the game is not a smart thing to do, especially given a Fex's cost.

I could care less 'what is rarely done'. You wanted to compare what is better, a Venom Cannon or a BS at taking out vehicles right?

You claim it is a Barbed Strangler, but it isn't in any of your examples, as all you have prooven is that one shot of a BS is better than one shot of a VC and that a T-L Strangler is better than a single Venom cannon.

So you have not proved what it is you are claiming, Arcas has shown you that the Venom Cannon, one on one, is superior, all you have shown is that the BS is superior when the VC only gets half of it's minimum shots and when the BS has a clear advantage.

Both of the above are biased and unfair statistics as the weapons are not on equal grounding, one has a clear advanatge in each situation which skews the results in it's favour so claiming the BS is superior is incorrect, as the VC is superior, the BS is only superior when you give it an unfair advantage, on equal grounds and as they are used without upgrades the VC is superior.

~MTWC

[Arcas]

 

Twin-linking a Venom Cannon is only very rarely done, and its benefits to the weapon are far less than twin-linking a Strangler.

Of course it's rarely done - because using both VC and BS is a better choice. And it's a better choice than using a TL BS as well, by the way.
However, that twinlinking is of greater benefit to the barbed strangler is an interesting aspect - i'd rather count that as a weakness of the strangler that it's so random, whereas a venon cannon with its 2 or 3 shots does not need to be twin linked to be relatively reliable in first instance. And by the hard math twin linking does exactly the same to both.

This is mainly because the Strangler has fewer shots and therefore needs to make them count. In addition, the use of the VC is relegated almost solely to anti-vehicle, and using both your weapon slots on something that can easily become pretty much useless throughout the game is not a smart thing to do, especially given a Fex's cost.

In combination with a strangler a venom cannon is pretty good against infantry...due to torrent of fire and instakilling T5 and so on. I've explained it above.

However, against most other targets (i.e. infantry) it is pretty much redundant, and therefore in most cases a twin-linked BS would be preferable.

Twin linking  the strangler will get you +50% hits in average. Since in most cases one won't hit many models with the template anyway there isn*t much of a difference there.

As I Said. When you have a high threat vehicle you don't want to stun it, you want to take it out. Even vs say, an AV14 vehicle, a Carnifex VC will only cause a "Stunned" or better result one in four turns. That is not enough.

But since a strangler evidently does not perform any better against most vehicles than a venom cannon, this is a non-issue.

And get your math straight...a carnifex with a venom cannon will score a glance on a AV14 vehicle every two turns in average. Your negligence of a venom cannon firing two shots borders on outright dishonesty.
And how many glances will a strangler score in that situation? One every twelve turns. So a venom cannon does six times as much damage as the strangler there.

Last I checked, a) Rhinos can only smoke once per game and b) Fexes could see over most terrain rendering Obscured useless.

After that single smoking they usually fulfilled their purpose.
And fices cannot ignore any terrain.  Being a few inches high is not going to be of significant use if the target is somewhat away and the intervening terrain isn't exactly right at the carnifex, and in case of level 2 terrain in between according to the rules on page 69 the target counts as obscured no matter what.

They are a far better choice for dedicated tank hunting, as they are cheaper etc, and also provide synapse. On the other hand, your Carnifexes could be wiping out hundreds of say, Guardsmen, with a Barbed Strangler.

And that's why one uses both a strangler and a venom cannon. That's the very best anti tank performance a fex can get, and it still is very close to the top spot in terms of infantry killingness.

Come to think of it, I would like to add another point. A Carnifex tooled to take out infantry (shooting or in close combat) is far more effective than one tooled to take out, or even suppress, tanks.

Tyranids do not lack things which can take out infantry, but we do lack things which can suppress or destroy tanks at range. Especially when going against eldar or dark eldar...

[lord_guru32]

i strongly disagree that a VC is redundant vrs infantry, 2 shots at ap4, wounding all infantry i can think of on 2+ and instakilling t5 is pretty nice, also it dosnt matter how spread out your enemys models are/how big their bases are since it isnt a blast weapon. id probably say that the VC and BS are almost equal in infantry busting power, the BS just pulling ahead due to pinning and the possibility of alot of hits.

[Talos Claw]

I told you, if you are willing to listen, then either agree or refute it (instead of sidestepping) I will tell you again.

Don't treat me like an idiot who can't read, I know what you said and I disagree with it because it is a poor excuse and only serves to skew your results to what you want them to show.

Then, please, refute it.

Twin-linking a Venom Cannon is only very rarely done, and its benefits to the weapon are far less than twin-linking a Strangler.

Of course it's rarely done - because using both VC and BS is a better choice. And it's a better choice than using a TL BS as well, by the way.
However, that twinlinking is of greater benefit to the barbed strangler is an interesting aspect - i'd rather count that as a weakness of the strangler that it's so random, whereas a venon cannon with its 2 or 3 shots does not need to be twin linked to be relatively reliable in first instance. .

So, you are saying that it is correct that the twin-linked Strangler be compared to the single VC?

This is mainly because the Strangler has fewer shots and therefore needs to make them count. In addition, the use of the VC is relegated almost solely to anti-vehicle, and using both your weapon slots on something that can easily become pretty much useless throughout the game is not a smart thing to do, especially given a Fex's cost.

In combination with a strangler a venom cannon is pretty good against infantry...due to torrent of fire and instakilling T5 and so on. I've explained it above.

When using Torrent of Fire, I find it much more effective just to link the Strangler.

Second, T5 multi-wound models don't exactly run around on their own out in the open...

As I Said. When you have a high threat vehicle you don't want to stun it, you want to take it out. Even vs say, an AV14 vehicle, a Carnifex VC will only cause a "Stunned" or better result one in four turns. That is not enough.

But since a strangler evidently does not perform any better against most vehicles than a venom cannon, this is a non-issue.

And get your math straight...a carnifex with a venom cannon will score a glance on a AV14 vehicle every two turns in average. Your negligence of a venom cannon firing two shots borders on outright dishonesty.
And how many glances will a strangler score in that situation? One every twelve turns. So a venom cannon does six times as much damage as the strangler there.

I said "the number of times it will score a Stunned or better, not the number of times it will glance.It will only score that one-half the time, which is what is most important.

Last I checked, a) Rhinos can only smoke once per game and b) Fexes could see over most terrain rendering Obscured useless.

After that single smoking they usually fulfilled their purpose.

Generally, it takes more than one twelve-inch move to cross the 36-inch range of a Fex.

And fices cannot ignore any terrain.  Being a few inches high is not going to be of significant use if the target is somewhat away and the intervening terrain isn't exactly right at the carnifex, and in case of level 2 terrain in between according to the rules on page 69 the target counts as obscured no matter what.

The Carnifex is Size 3...

They are a far better choice for dedicated tank hunting, as they are cheaper etc, and also provide synapse. On the other hand, your Carnifexes could be wiping out hundreds of say, Guardsmen, with a Barbed Strangler.

And that's why one uses both a strangler and a venom cannon. That's the very best anti tank performance a fex can get, and it still is very close to the top spot in terms of infantry killingness.

I prefer my Fexes to work against infantry (where they are more effective than when working against vehicles) and leave vehicles to those that can do it well, like Winged Hive Tyrants, Genestealers, or Zoanthropes.

Come to think of it, I would like to add another point. A Carnifex tooled to take out infantry (shooting or in close combat) is far more effective than one tooled to take out, or even suppress, tanks.

Tyranids do not lack things which can take out infantry, but we do lack things which can suppress or destroy tanks at range. Especially when going against eldar or dark eldar...

They don't lack things that are anti-vehicle either. And the point still stands - you have not refuted it, only said that it is not necessary.

[-Makenshi-]

I told you, if you are willing to listen, then either agree or refute it (instead of sidestepping) I will tell you again.

Don't treat me like an idiot who can't read, I know what you said and I disagree with it because it is a poor excuse and only serves to skew your results to what you want them to show.

Then, please, refute it.

I have, and you haven't commented on a single one of my comments.

~MTWC

[Arcas]

So, you are saying that it is correct that the twin-linked Strangler be compared to the single VC?

No. How do you get this from what i said?

When using Torrent of Fire, I find it much more effective just to link the Strangler.

Why? Fail a single to wound roll or don't hit all models of the squad, and you can forget it. Having a non twin linked strangler and another two shots from an extra weapon should be more reliable.

Second, T5 multi-wound models don't exactly run around on their own out in the open...

Daemon prince with stature? Quite a good target for anything S10.

I said "the number of times it will score a Stunned or better, not the number of times it will glance.It will only score that one-half the time, which is what is most important.

Ok, i misread you then. However, why don't you count shaken? It will suppress the enemy shooting just as good as stunned. The only result which will leave a glanced vehicle shooting with all weapons next turn is immobilized, and weapon destroyed is quite a  nice result as well. Bye bye battle cannon, assault cannon or TL lascannon. I consider the loss of one of these weapons to be about half as good as destroying the vehicle, and better than a stunned result if it happens early on and the  vehicle doesn't have many other weapons. A glance will seriously reduce the firepower a vehicle can dish out in the game in 5/6 cases. And besides, the venom cannon still scores three times as many stunned-or-better than the strangler.

Generally, it takes more than one twelve-inch move to cross the 36-inch range of a Fex.

That's under the premise that they want to get to the fex...which is rarely so. In order to get to a mission objective or something else they don*t have to drive that far, and typically they don't need smoke launchers every turn either, due to cover or more valuable targets on the table.

The Carnifex is Size 3...

Doesn't matter, read page 69. Any area terrain bigger than level 1 will make vehicles behind count as obscured.

I prefer my Fexes to work against infantry (where they are more effective than when working against vehicles) and leave vehicles to those that can do it well, like Winged Hive Tyrants, Genestealers, or Zoanthropes.

Neither of these are particularly good against skimmers, and only the tyrant has a chance to do anything to a vehicle with AV12+ on turn one. As previously mentioned, we don't need more anti infantry stuff. Gaunts, stealers and tyrants do that job just fine. Silencing vehicles from the distance and early on, as well as dealing with skimmer heavy armies is something that we only have carnifices for. And a VC/BS carnifex still is very effective against infantry.

They don't lack things that are anti-vehicle either.

Only in mid and late game, and only against non skimmers. Early on and against skimmers tyranids rely on carnifices. Well, and in termy of attacking vehicles in close combat...as soon ass the opponent begins moving more than six inches you need sixes to hit. Sure, that rhino may lose its stormbolter firepower then, but if that is the price for keeping a squad of stealers busy for a long time, then so be it.

[Talos Claw]

I have, and you haven't commented on a single one of my comments.

All you have said is that it is biased. I have given you logic as to why it is not, and you have not replied to it.

When using Torrent of Fire, I find it much more effective just to link the Strangler.

Why? Fail a single to wound roll or don't hit all models of the squad, and you can forget it. Having a non twin linked strangler and another two shots from an extra weapon should be more reliable.

A VC (average extra 1 hit) will give you only one extra wound, even if you make the roll.

I find that an increased likelihood of hitting with the Strangler in the first place is a much better choice, even if I don't get Torrent of Fire.

Second, T5 multi-wound models don't exactly run around on their own out in the open...

Daemon prince with stature? Quite a good target for anything S10.

They are Independant Characters, are they not?

Generally, it takes more than one twelve-inch move to cross the 36-inch range of a Fex.

That's under the premise that they want to get to the fex...which is rarely so. In order to get to a mission objective or something else they don*t have to drive that far, and typically they don't need smoke launchers every turn either, due to cover or more valuable targets on the table.

It is usually better to ignore a Rhino with smoke on and wait for it to dissipate. No matter where they are going to, they will be targetable the next turn.

[quote[

The Carnifex is Size 3...

Doesn't matter, read page 69. Any area terrain bigger than level 1 will make vehicles behind count as obscured.[/quote]

Very well...I must talk to my friends now.  Still, terrain is not infinite, and a vehicle which must stay behind terrain all the time is generally not going to do very much.

I prefer my Fexes to work against infantry (where they are more effective than when working against vehicles) and leave vehicles to those that can do it well, like Winged Hive Tyrants, Genestealers, or Zoanthropes.

Neither of these are particularly good against skimmers, and only the tyrant has a chance to do anything to a vehicle with AV12+ on turn one. As previously mentioned, we don't need more anti infantry stuff. Gaunts, stealers and tyrants do that job just fine. Silencing vehicles from the distance and early on, as well as dealing with skimmer heavy armies is something that we only have carnifices for. And a VC/BS carnifex still is very effective against infantry.

Hitting on sixes is fine, the Nids have enough attacks. And Zoanthropes or Biovores do quite well vs skimmers also.

They don't lack things that are anti-vehicle either.

Only in mid and late game, and only against non skimmers. Early on and against skimmers tyranids rely on carnifices. Well, and in termy of attacking vehicles in close combat...as soon ass the opponent begins moving more than six inches you need sixes to hit. Sure, that rhino may lose its stormbolter firepower then, but if that is the price for keeping a squad of stealers busy for a long time, then so be it.

That was the point, was it not? Suppressing the vehicle's firepower?

[Arcas]

A VC (average extra 1 hit) will give you only one extra wound, even if you make the roll.

In average, yes. And with a few models under the marker the chance to fail one to wound roll is pretty high.

And besides: A strangler will score how many hits in average?
Two full and two partials, 50% chance to hit, that's two hits per turn.Twin linking it will make that three hits. A venom cannon instead of twin linking will make that three hits too, but add flexibility against vehicles.

They are Independant Characters, are they not?

...can be chosen as a target despite of that, due to daemonic stature.

It is usually better to ignore a Rhino with smoke on and wait for it to dissipate. No matter where they are going to, they will be targetable the next turn.

That depends on what it is going to do or unload. With a venom cannon you don*t care about the smoke launchers anyway.

Still, terrain is not infinite, and a vehicle which must stay behind terrain all the time is generally not going to do very much.

It counts as obscured, but it still can see over it. The vehicle's firepower won*t be impeded in any way by level 2 terrain, except for the enemy getting cover saves if the vehicle isn't at least partially inside that terrain.

Hitting on sixes is fine, the Nids have enough attacks.

And then you need a nother six on the penetration roll to trigger rending....and a tyrant doesn't have many attacks. Great.

And Zoanthropes or Biovores do quite well vs skimmers also.

Skimmers are about two to four times as fast as zoas, and these only have an effective range of 24". Biovores are overpriced for what they do.

That was the point, was it not? Suppressing the vehicle's firepower?

A 150+pts squad of genestealers suppressing the stormbolter of a rhino by chasing it isn't exactly a good deal. They also have to get there in first instance, while a fex can suppress the vehicle as early as turn one, which is crucial. And fast vehicles won't care about this anyway, they outrun you and still fire back. And a squad of stealers can only force a vehicle to move more than 6" every second turn, with average FoC rolls.

Furthermore, once the vehicle has been destroyed or its big scary gun destroyed, a fex can engage a new target basically anywhere on the table, while stealers need to get there first.

[-Makenshi-]

I have, and you haven't commented on a single one of my comments.

All you have said is that it is biased. I have given you logic as to why it is not, and you have not replied to it.

No, you have not even replied to my comments, and nothing you have said has refuted them or diminished them in any way, shape or form.

~MTWC