Topic: The Last Jedi (like spoilers up everywhere in this thread)

[Guildmage Aech]

Well. I walked out the cinema with a buzz of AWESOME! But that has faded to a lot of questions. And mild annoyances.

Lets start with amphetamine parrotty resistance bombers. With all the speed of a bumblebee, the total failure of health and safety detonator protocols and a formation so tight everything chain explodes if it gets sneezed on and all for an effective attack range of 0.5 of beslubber alls.

 I find it hard to blame Poe that they all died. Even old rattlebox y wings launched their bombs FORWARDS instead of down.

Lot of good character acting though Klyo Ren really good, scenes with Rey and Finn great and liking Finns surprise love interest.
Luke as a grumpy old hermit well portrayed and fits with "run off and hide" as a classic jedi technique of dealing with problems.

But lets skip the space mary poppins scene, silly kamakazi hyperspace ramming and move right up to how cheap it was to kill Luke with cgi at the end. Lame. By all means kill him off but a scene in the next film would have done more justice to Lukes character arc.

Also could have got by with 50% less cgi critters. Hopefully the remaining rebels will at some point think of a better plan than head on attack at some point... as its really not a winner.

Overal though an enjoyable move, great fight scenes but wouldn't stand up long on its own. Akin to a Pirates of Caribbean sequel... pick any you like really.

6/10 could try harder. 

[The GrimSqueaker]

The whole hyperspace mega death thing is the writers *finally* catching up with authors from the 60's who worked out that when you have that kind of drive then it's its own weapon. One of devastating proportions. Since something as small as an X-wing has a hyperdrive, make them drones and go balls to the wall at an enemy fleet. Or planets....

[Grand Master Lomandalis]

I will give them one thing, though.  Going into this movie, I was not expecting them to kill Snoke off.  I was expecting another Emperor / Vader type relationship to last through the three movies, but I can see why they broke with that mould.

If there is one thing that I left the theatre with, it was that this did not feel like the second movie of a trilogy.  If anything, it really felt like they were trying to push the feeling that there is so much to be added that it will not be wrapped up in a trilogy and that the story will continue well after Ep.9

[Guildmage Aech]

The whole hyperspace mega death thing is the writers *finally* catching up with authors from the 60's who worked out that when you have that kind of drive then it's its own weapon. One of devastating proportions. Since something as small as an X-wing has a hyperdrive, make them drones and go balls to the wall at an enemy fleet. Or planets....

But hyperdrive doesn't work like that in the universe. In rogue one we see transports getting bonked attempting to hyperspace into a surprise star destroyer.
If it was that awesome why bother with amphetamine parrotty bombers at all instead of hyperspace cruise missiles like you say. Its never even considered.

I will give them one thing, though.  Going into this movie, I was not expecting them to kill Snoke off.  I was expecting another Emperor / Vader type relationship to last through the three movies, but I can see why they broke with that mould.

Kinda made snoke seem like just some punk. It wpuld have been nice to start to see some reveal about who he was and were he came from (hes old enough to be around in the empire era right?) And where did the first order spring from.

It feels disjointed to me. Apparently Ryan got no guidance from JJ about story and I think that shows with the lack of continuation and how having a single writer/director is a weakness.

Its like he had a dozen ideas for cool scenes and decided to used all of them and just strung them together somehow.

[The GrimSqueaker]

But hyperdrive doesn't work like that in the universe. In rogue one we see transports getting bonked attempting to hyperspace into a surprise star destroyer.
If it was that awesome why bother with amphetamine parrotty bombers at all instead of hyperspace cruise missiles like you say. Its never even considered.

So an issue with continuity or writers not considering the implications? The Picard Manoeuvre is based on that but around the enemy making the FTL leap tactical. A recent novel I read did the same while still doing give me ramming speed as by the time they witness you blue shifting you're already there in their face.

Additionally:
https://www.theringer.com/2017/12/20/16800970/vice-admiral-holdo-maneuver-the-last-jedi

[Grand Master Lomandalis]

It wpuld have been nice to start to see some reveal about who he was and were he came from (hes old enough to be around in the empire era right?) And where did the first order spring from.

It could be said that this is the issue with Disney having an active hand in the novels as well as the movies.  Unlike the EU from before where authors were pretty much told "Don't kill a main character or go too far out there and you're good," the novels being released now are actually planned to have parts of the story.  Take for instance where the First Order came from, I know the Aftermath books take place immediately after the fall of the Empire.  While I've only read the first one, I could see them doing a similar series of books about the rise of the First Order.

[Blazinghand]

I really liked Kylo Ren in ths movie, much more than in episode 7. He's a much more compelling character and also a better villain than Snoke.

[The GrimSqueaker]

In this movie you get to see the kid kind of has a point rather than merely being a whiny rather unsavoury chap, what-ho old bean?.

[Grand Master Lomandalis]

Well, from his point of view the Jedi are evil.  Because... you know... Luke tried to kill him (from his perspective).

I went to see it again tonight and picked up on all of the hints that were dropped earlier about how things were going to develop.  Noticing those little details, I actually enjoyed the developments as the story progressed because the ones that gave me pause the first time didn't seem like they were just thrown in this time around.  There was planning for everything.  A small mention here, a drop of water there...

I don't know if I enjoyed it as much as TFA for an initial few viewings, but I think it does rank higher than TFA does and will have more rewatchability (yay making up words).

[Wyddr]

I loved everything with Luke/Rey/Kylo. Killing Snoke was the best thing ever (Snoke was so, sooo lame), the final lightsaber duel was AWESOME, and Luke's death was perfect.

The rest of the movie had a bunch of cool moments (the Holdo Maneuver was an awesome moment, no matter how little sense it makes), but was structurally awkward.

This movie, ultimately, needed another edit. Of note:

1) Space Battle #1 (w/Bombers) and Space Battle #2 (w/Leia getting blown up) could have been combined.

2) I don't know why we blew up Leia except just to get Liea on the Salt Planet to say bye to Luke. There was no other reason. She and Holdo are basically the same character in most ways, and Leia blowing the crap out of the First Order in a suicide charge would have been BAD ASS. Of course, they wanted Fisher in Ep9, so they kept her around, but still Holdo was this weird Leia doppleganger that I thought a little awkward.

3) There is zero (zero) reason they needed that whole rigamarole w/ the special "we track you through hyperspace" tech. All of it could have been managed with a mole on the ship (which they kinda hinted at anyway) or any number of other solutions that wouldn't have required us to take a weird side-quest to a casino planet.

4) Regarding Canto Bight, I thought it was a perfectly reasonable sequence (though the space pony chase went too long), but super, suuuper awkwardly inserted into the movie. Why couldn't the whole fleet have jumped *to* Canto Bight (in hopes of stealing/buying supplies while hiding in the SUPER CONVENIENT ASTEROID BELT I'M JUST NOW INVENTING)? That would have been more streamlined than them stealing a ship (somehow) to run off to another world and then jumping back again.

Overall, I enjoyed the hell out of the movie (it's ranking somewhere around #2 or #3 of all time Star Wars favorites), but it was really weirdly put together in a way that made things seem arbitrary. 

[Sir_Godspeed]

I'm pretty pissed they killed off Admiral Ackbar without any mention and then gave the epic self-sacrifice scene to a completely new random character never previously mentioned.

It also raises the question of why the hell the other Resistance ships didn't try the same once they knew they were going down. Instead they got shot down like chumps.

And the bombers in the initial scene... what the hell were they even thinking with that one.

Also, I wasn't crazy about the whole gambling-planet sideplot and the mechanic character that hung around Finn and suddenly got sad about children with a hamfisted exposition. It wasn't terrible, but it just seemed shoehorned.

I understand people had misgivings about the truth behind Luke's past. I'm kinda neutral about it, which is weird, considering how polarizing it apparently is.

All in all, I enjoyed it. Whatever flaws it had, it certainly was jam-packed with action and a good deal of character development as well!

[Grand Master Lomandalis]

I'm pretty pissed they killed off Admiral Ackbar without any mention and then gave the epic self-sacrifice scene to a completely new random character never previously mentioned.

Pretty sure that is because the actor who played Ackbar passed away...

[Sir_Godspeed]

I'm pretty pissed they killed off Admiral Ackbar without any mention and then gave the epic self-sacrifice scene to a completely new random character never previously mentioned.

Pretty sure that is because the actor who played Ackbar passed away...

That doesn't preclude a death with a minimum of gravity to it. As it is, there is basically just no mention of him, which I find a shame.

Frankly, a lot of the non-human characters are really marginalized. Chewbacca is completely ancillary, even when it comes to meeting his old friend Luke (just like there was no exploration of him losing his best friend in Awakens), and a lot of the other Resistance aliens are just... there. As window dressing, despite several of them being fan favorites. Maybe it's because the directors don't have confidence in audiences empathizing of the masks and prosthetics, but it has unfortunate implications.

[Wyddr]

Haven't all the movies marginalized the non-human characters (Yoda excepted)? I mean, other than a few lines in RoTJ, what has Akbar ever said or done in the movies to warrant more than he got? Chewie got about as much screen time as he did in EpIV or EpVI. He stood around, he played back up, he had one "cutesy" scene, and yeah...that's Chewie's thing. 

I think one of the problems this movie has is not so much a problem with the movie, but a problem with people putting all the expectations built by the books and comics into the movie (where Chewie gets more time and Akbar becomes more of a filled-out character). But they aren't doing that. They nuked all that stuff out of the canon for specifically that purpose--so they wouldn't have to do that.

Of course, it's backfiring with a large subset of fandom. Not that they care, given that Star Wars has overflowed the boundaries of its own fandom and doesn't actually need them anymore.

[Sir_Godspeed]

Actually, for all its failures, the prequel trilogy was really good at showing species-diversity, which is probably why I feel like these movies have taken a step backwards.

Well, that and going back to the relative lack of scale that I also argue the prequels improved upon from the original trilogy (I'm a bit of a heretic).

[The GrimSqueaker]

(I'm a bit of a heretic).

We see....

[Lord of Winter and War]

I saw last Jedi in theaters twice. I really enjoyed it both times. I don't know anything about the novels and amphetamine parrot, but the new movies are a lot of fun!

[magenb]

someone needs to send the writers back to primary school, there is no friction in space, so you only need to burn fuel to accelerate, change direction or slow down..

In the books there has been mini jumps, so a destroyer could have leap frogged them to block them off, or you know call in re-enforcements.

You can't just fire a missile into the launch bay, they do not have giant doors that vent everything into space like in other scifi (battlestar), those great big blue things are meant to stop missiles getting through.

There was no reason to keep the plan from the crew/Poe, it was just poor writing to make an excuse to mutiny.. apparently the punishment for mutiny is a slap in the face...

I better stop before it turns into nerdy raging rant lol.

If you just want a movie with eye candy and a bit of action then sure its good for that (John Wick is waaaay better for that), if you want a movie were you give 2 rats about the characters and has an interesting plot, then yeah not the movie for you.


Kind of a strange time for me at the moment, I'm more excited by the next Keanu Reeves movie than the next star wars.

[Grand Master Lomandalis]

To be fair, Star Wars has never gotten space combat physics correct.  The digndights were based on ww2 videos and so were  modeled after atmospheric combat.

[The GrimSqueaker]

The prequels went all Wooden Ships Iron Men with capital ships firing broadsides at each other at point blank ranges. If you want better physics watch The Expanse.