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Author Topic: Israel Goes To Hell in a hand basket  (Read 22782 times)

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Offline Gotchaye

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Re: Israel Goes To Hell in a hand basket
« Reply #40 on: July 15, 2006, 08:56:11 PM »
What could they do instead?  How could Israel effectively dispense justice to its attackers without causing civilian casualties?  I'm sure that, if it's not prohibitively costly or risky, it's something that they'd already be doing.  Again, I have to ask why they would be causing civilian casualties if it were avoidable.  It just doesn't make sense to me.

I believe that Israel has justified the destruction of bridges and whatnot by pointing out that, if Hezbollah gets the hostages out of the country and into Iran, they're gone forever.  Ultimately, Israel's strikes are all against the capabilities of Hezbollah.  That Hezbollah insists on hiding behind civilians is despicable, but Israel can't allow that to stay its hand.

Also, why is it unreasonable to think that Iran would be helping out in some way?  I mean, it's not like their leader has any love for Israel, and has gone on record multiple times calling for its destruction, and, I believe, even threatening such destruction.

I don't see what Israel's doing as saying 'sod it'; it very much seems to me that there's just no way to get to the enemy without going through the child, and the enemy has made clear, from past and present behavior as well as in threats for the future, that it's necessary to stop him.

Offline Wurzelmaniac

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Re: Israel Goes To Hell in a hand basket
« Reply #41 on: July 15, 2006, 09:05:57 PM »
Dude, to get hostages to Iran will mean going through Iraq. How are they going to do that? And if they can do that, blowing up a bridge will not stop them by much.

The soldiers were captured while in LEBANESE TERRITORY. In other words they were engaged in an illegal activity when they were taken. Now Israel wants us to believe it's the injured party in all this?

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Re: Israel Goes To Hell in a hand basket
« Reply #42 on: July 15, 2006, 09:07:59 PM »
I believe that Israel has justified the destruction of bridges and whatnot by pointing out that, if Hezbollah gets the hostages out of the country and into Iran, they're gone forever. 

You mean the country on the otherside of Iraq? Damn, that's a long way to go. Have you checked a map?

Ultimately, Israel's strikes are all against the capabilities of Hezbollah.  That Hezbollah insists on hiding behind civilians is despicable, but Israel can't allow that to stay its hand.

Explain yourself. How is striking down town Beirut striking against Hezbollah? The airport? The bridges? Still, if we're going to go down this road, then 9/11 was an acceptable strike. How dare the Bush government hide behind civilians like that. Sure, some innocent people died but how else were they to strike against the US government? Intended tongue in cheek rather rather than directly inflammatory but this does seem to be the way the conversation is heading. Any target appears to be acceptable as long as you believe your cause is just. Sure.  ::)

Also, why is it unreasonable to think that Iran would be helping out in some way?  I mean, it's not like their leader has any love for Israel, and has gone on record multiple times calling for its destruction, and, I believe, even threatening such destruction.

In the same manner the US has spoken out against Iran and happily arms anyone who agrees with them? Wouldn't this be a pot/kettle situation?

I don't see what Israel's doing as saying 'sod it'; it very much seems to me that there's just no way to get to the enemy without going through the child, and the enemy has made clear, from past and present behavior as well as in threats for the future, that it's necessary to stop him.

So, when your neighbour keeps breaking into your house and you finally confront them and chase them back outside and trample their flowers, it'd be okay for your neighbour to kick in your door and start beating your wife?
« Last Edit: July 15, 2006, 09:15:20 PM by Barr'El O'Rum »
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Offline Captain Hajime

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Re: Israel Goes To Hell in a hand basket
« Reply #43 on: July 15, 2006, 09:15:26 PM »
Well things keep getting better. Israel now claims that Iran aided Hezbollah in their attack on the Israeli warship. Can anyone see the train of thought here? This is going to get messy and drag a lot of people into it. I for one, am with Capt Hajime in a way. Pull out all foreign troops and let them kill each other. Whoever is left standing gets the pie. The countries in the middle east have been fighting for so long that it's enough. Let's just stop trying to keep the peace and let them have at it. Maybe the victor will look at the cost in the end and learn something from it.

Some of you are probably thinking: "That's cruel, even for you Brother Asreus! The international community has a responsibility to step in and save inncoent lives!" What about the responsibility of these countries to get their heads out of their rear ends and play nice? They have a responsibility to the international community as well to "try" and get along. I'm getting quite tired of hearing about all the conflict in the middle east. Let them have their wars and get it over with, so long as they keep it to themselves and don't try to nuke a non-participating country, go nuts. Get anyone out of the countries that want to have their little fight, evacuate tourist etc and then blow the whistle and let them go.

I honestly hope Canada takes a stand to tell Israel that they deplore their actions and will not aid them in anyway. This is their mess, they can clean it up. If the US is wise, they'll also just stand off to the side and wag a finger at Israel and telling them they're bad. Though I see this as an opportunity by the Bush administration to team up with Israel and invade Iran and possibly Syria if they come to the aid of Lebanon. If Iran is atacked though, you can bet on Syria getting involved and we have WW III and a rumble in the Jyhad jungle.

When will people stop using their arses to make decisions? *sigh*

Well the US isn't going to stop funding Israel, which of course is the problem. They can do what ever they want. It is stupid.

What could they do instead?  How could Israel effectively dispense justice to its attackers without causing civilian casualties?  I'm sure that, if it's not prohibitively costly or risky, it's something that they'd already be doing.  Again, I have to ask why they would be causing civilian casualties if it were avoidable.  It just doesn't make sense to me.

I believe that Israel has justified the destruction of bridges and whatnot by pointing out that, if Hezbollah gets the hostages out of the country and into Iran, they're gone forever.  Ultimately, Israel's strikes are all against the capabilities of Hezbollah.  That Hezbollah insists on hiding behind civilians is despicable, but Israel can't allow that to stay its hand.

Also, why is it unreasonable to think that Iran would be helping out in some way?  I mean, it's not like their leader has any love for Israel, and has gone on record multiple times calling for its destruction, and, I believe, even threatening such destruction.

I don't see what Israel's doing as saying 'sod it'; it very much seems to me that there's just no way to get to the enemy without going through the child, and the enemy has made clear, from past and present behavior as well as in threats for the future, that it's necessary to stop him.

Well sort of to the point is that Israel has never really tried to deal with it with any other aprooch than Smack them harder and kill more of them than us. it been like that for all my life. Israel is fishing, statements by Iran have been very unclear i believe bad translation was blamed for the last supposed clain of death to Israel, but looking at from an Arab point of view you have to admit Israel has done everything to make Arabs to Hate them. they use Rocket into refugee camps, keep the palistians dirt poor, threat them like dirt, Lanch raid and other ILLEGAL actions into Sovernations [which are acts of War] Conduct Assissations in confliction with interanational law and on top of all that the US give Israel thier Blessings and the West can't or Won't do anything serious about Israels clear transgretions of International law.
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Offline Full Metal Geneticist

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Re: Israel Goes To Hell in a hand basket
« Reply #44 on: July 15, 2006, 09:30:29 PM »
What could they do instead?  How could Israel effectively dispense justice to its attackers without causing civilian casualties?  I'm sure that, if it's not prohibitively costly or risky, it's something that they'd already be doing.  Again, I have to ask why they would be causing civilian casualties if it were avoidable.  It just doesn't make sense to me.

I believe that Israel has justified the destruction of bridges and whatnot by pointing out that, if Hezbollah gets the hostages out of the country and into Iran, they're gone forever.  Ultimately, Israel's strikes are all against the capabilities of Hezbollah.  That Hezbollah insists on hiding behind civilians is despicable, but Israel can't allow that to stay its hand.

Also, why is it unreasonable to think that Iran would be helping out in some way?  I mean, it's not like their leader has any love for Israel, and has gone on record multiple times calling for its destruction, and, I believe, even threatening such destruction.

I don't see what Israel's doing as saying 'sod it'; it very much seems to me that there's just no way to get to the enemy without going through the child, and the enemy has made clear, from past and present behavior as well as in threats for the future, that it's necessary to stop him.

The examples are getting silly... Trample his flowers??? Dude thats so not on...

I believe its the palestinians are the ones who should be talking about "dispensing justice" the palestinian kidnap response is one for the kidnap of a Hamas MP who was in Jail in the gaza settlement. Israel Invaded it killed security gaurds and prisoners and forcibly extridited him back. Now you know as well as i do "forced extradition" is a euphemism for Kidnap... And it does'nt change the fact that the terrorist was also a government leader. If Nelson Mandela can be one i don't see why can't he. Okay we don't take that into account. What about the kids killed on the seaside from the shelling? As pointed out the attack was in retaliation for Israel killing civilians. Killing Civilians, kidnapping soldier... The incorrect behaviour is in the hands of the Israelis having declared war on the Soverign nation and expected it to bend over and "take it like a man"...

Unavoidable civilian casualties? There are a lot of things that are quite "unpallatable" with Israeli behaviour. Including one attempted filing of an interesting warcrime called genocide. Sadly the only witness suffered from a fatal accident involving a car exploding on his way to the preliminary trial. Quite bizzare really. Links to a certain girlie Prime Minister. But the casualties were real. A camp of 3000 to 4000 palestinians were butchered under "some Israeli's" orders. Israeli soldiers Controlled the refugee camp. The Death toll is unknown. Israel says 300... BBC said 700... Other sources claim upto 4000 died at the Shabana and Shatila refugee camps... Is'nt that ironic? Israel can do no evil? Surprising how the only witness died in 2002... Mr. Girlie primeminister's name comes up here again... Draw your own conclusions...

Iran is the same as Israel. Iran does'nt recognise Israel. Why should it! After all Palestine is'nt  recognised by Israel in the same way. And Hezbollah is a Syrian organisation. Did you know that collective punishment is actually a Nazi tactic? For instance the commandant in charge of the czechoslovakia region was assasinated. Response? SS turned up at two villages and massacred the men. Ironic is'nt it? Killing 100s of people over a kidnapping? Do you think they are going to let him leave so easily? Alright a few IDFs got killed but to be fair they were on Lebanese soil. Its kind of invasion as stated. The troops were on the lebanon side of the border when hezbollah caught them.


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Offline Frescadude

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Re: Israel Goes To Hell in a hand basket
« Reply #45 on: July 15, 2006, 10:41:19 PM »
The whole thing is, Israel refused to stop violating the Geneva conventions, even to save the lives of its own soldiers.  Hamas was even playing nice for awhile but the Israelis just had to use any excuse they could to start fighting again.

I'm going off to camp tommorrow and my prediction is that by the time I get back, 5 more nations will be involved and at least 1 of those will be nuclear capable.
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Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re: Israel Goes To Hell in a hand basket
« Reply #46 on: July 15, 2006, 10:52:47 PM »
I'm going off to camp tommorrow and my prediction is that by the time I get back, 5 more nations will be involved and at least 1 of those will be nuclear capable.

One more I take it you mean?

Worst case would be perhaps involve Syria which leads us to Iran if they honour the mutual defence agreement. To get to the battlezone(s) Iran would be going through/over Iraq which leads us directly to the US (beyond their mutual defense agreement with Israel). Yeah, bad times all around if that were to occur.
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Offline Dux Aurelius Elysius

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Re: Israel Goes To Hell in a hand basket
« Reply #47 on: July 16, 2006, 06:32:49 AM »
Syria have already pledged their resources to Lebanon.  Escalation begins ...

What could they do instead?  How could Israel effectively dispense justice to its attackers without causing civilian casualties?

Justice?!  Are you kidding me?  Someone should "dispense justice" against Israel.  You do not kill that many innocents in the name of "justice".  They could go for a controlled troop action.  They could figure out where the soldiers are being held and specifically target only that location with controlled actions.  As has been pointed out, Israel are not restraining their attacks to Hezbullah targets.  They are using terrorist tactics to beat the Lebanese into submission, similar to their tactics against the Palestinians.  The kidnapped soldiers are just a good excuse going at the time.

Again, I have to ask why they would be causing civilian casualties if it were avoidable.  It just doesn't make sense to me.

Israel has never cared about civillian casualties.  When they get hit by a suicide bomber they bulldoze Palestinian buildings, they commandeer Palestinian homes and places of work, they set up curfews on Palestinian land where they have no jurisdiction.  They habitually shoot children who are breaking curfew, for whatever reason, they've been known to kill a child while in class surrounded by work mates with a sniper shot for sitting too close to an illegal Israeli settlement.  If there's a rocket attack they'll take to the streets and start shooting bullets left right and centre, regardless of who is there.  They've been known to kill journalists, they've taken Palestinians aside from checkpoints and used rocks to break their arms.  Caring about civillian casualties isn't something that Israel tends to do.

That Hezbollah insists on hiding behind civilians is despicable, but Israel can't allow that to stay its hand.

Striking against Hezbollah?  You think that even matter considering what Israel is doing in the process?  They are using the lives of two soldiers to justify the killing of hundreds.

... there's just no way to get to the enemy without going through the child, and the enemy has made clear, from past and present behavior as well as in threats for the future, that it's necessary to stop him.

At what cost?  You're saying that it is worth innocent lives, let alone hundreds of innocent lives, to stop Hezbullah?  Do Israel even know where they need to be hitting to stop Hezbullah, or is the shooting and bombing of fleeing refugees because they thought the Hezbullah operatives might be with them?  Do you think the bombs will get the soldiers back?

To bomb Hezbullah, you need to know where they are.  If they know that, why do they choose terror tactics over controlled operations?  During Iraq the British airforce tested concrete bombs - non explosive, accurate slabs of concrete dropped from the sky which could kill or severely unnerve a sniper.  This was done as opposed to cluster bombing a civillian location.  You could also employ the use of troop operations which would cut down on "collateral damage".  Israel hasn't bothered to negotiate, they haven't bothered to think about anything but the easy option.
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Offline Lonewolf

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Re: Israel Goes To Hell in a hand basket
« Reply #48 on: July 16, 2006, 10:28:17 AM »
Quote from www.heute.de/ZDFheute/inhalt/0/0,3672,3957120,00.html

Quote
Israel kündigt "heftigen Angriff" an

Am Vormittag - nach dem Angriff der Hisbollah auf Haifa - riefen die israelischen Streitkräfte die Bevölkerung im Süden des Libanons auf, sich vor einem bevorstehenden Luftangriff in Sicherheit zu bringen. "Wir empfehlen ihnen, ihre Dörfer und Häuser zu verlassen und in den Norden des Landes zu gehen", sagte der General des israelischen Nordkommandos, Udi Adam, der Fernsehnachrichtena gentur APTN. "In drei oder vier Stunden werden wir den Süden des Libanons heftig angreifen." Adams oberster Kriegsherr, Olmert, betonte, Israel wolle "in Frieden und mit guten nachbarlichen Beziehungen leben".

Translates as:

Israel announces "vehement attack"

In the morning - after the Hisbollah attack at Haifa - the Israelian forces called the population of south Lebanon, to save themselves from the coming air strike. "We recommand you to leave your villages and homes and leave to the north of the land", says the General of the Israelian north commando Udi Adam, to the TV news APTN. "In 3 or 4 hours we will attack the south of Lebanon vehemently." Adams highest Warlord, Olmert, stessed, Israel wants "to live in peace and in good neighborhood relations".


So we will see a further escalation, but 2 points strike me:

Quote
"We recommand you to leave your villages and homes and leave to the north of the land", says the General of the Israelian north commando Udi Adam, to the TV news APTN.

Could be a bit difficult with all that destroyed bridges and streets.

Quote
"In 3 or 4 hours we will attack the south of Lebanon vehemently." Adams highest Warlord, Olmert, stessed, Israel wants "to live in peace and in good neighborhood relations".

Feels anyone else the urge to laugh here?



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Offline Full Metal Geneticist

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Re: Israel Goes To Hell in a hand basket
« Reply #49 on: July 16, 2006, 10:42:06 AM »
Pray tell me who on earth can pack all their earthly desires and move in 3 to 4 hours? Not many! Who will compensate them for their loss? Their homes, their jobs and so on...?


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Offline Ollieb

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Re: Israel Goes To Hell in a hand basket
« Reply #50 on: July 16, 2006, 11:40:24 AM »
So where exactly were these Israeli soldiers at when Hezbollah took them?  The only thing I could find was the following;

Quote
Israeli troops have entered Lebanon to search for two soldiers captured by Hezbollah fighters during a cross-border raid.

And that was from the Aljazeera website (but then I guess their reporting would be skewed as they are so Pro-Israeli).  I would think that "cross border" means they entered Israel to take them.   

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Re: Israel Goes To Hell in a hand basket
« Reply #51 on: July 16, 2006, 12:08:05 PM »
I think that's amajor point of contention right now. Some sources say the Israeli troops were caught in Lebanon (probably doing recon on Hezbollah activity). Others say that Hezbollah crossed into Israel and abducted the soldiers. He said/she said really. Whatever the cause, it's escalating rapidly. That's it folks, bend over, grab your ankles and kiss your butts goodbye. It's been fun while it lasted, but now it's time for the final curtain...


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Offline Captain Hajime

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Re: Israel Goes To Hell in a hand basket
« Reply #52 on: July 16, 2006, 12:09:55 PM »
And what is the West doing? are they even trying to help some peaceful solution or are we going to let Israel runn rough shoed all over what ever Arab population they want?
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Re: Israel Goes To Hell in a hand basket
« Reply #53 on: July 16, 2006, 12:15:31 PM »
Apparently the UN Security Council has washed their hands of it. I think many countries in the West are sick and tired of always trying to bring peace in an area that obviously isn't willing to work towards or keep the peace. I mean think of it. If everyday you broke up a fight between two of your friends, after awhile, wouldnt't you just get fed up and let them have at it and get it over with? Like my mom used to say when my sister and I fought: "Go ahead and kill yourselves! I'm sick and tired of putting up with it. Do it and get it over with!" Now in most cases this would make people stop and think how silly they're being. In our case it just gave us an excuse when we oput each other through the walls. LOL You can't babysit forever and there comes a time where you have to acknowledge that there's nothing to do and nopoint since they're just going to keep doing what they're doing anyway.


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Re: Israel Goes To Hell in a hand basket
« Reply #54 on: July 16, 2006, 12:19:59 PM »
France is going to send down 700 soldiers 2 military ships and some helicopters to get their people out (according to our local newspaper). Now i can see some funny situation arise here, like french soldiers getting killed by Israel fire. Now that would be some escalation. Call the Fremden Legion in i say  :P


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Re: Israel Goes To Hell in a hand basket
« Reply #55 on: July 16, 2006, 12:24:22 PM »
Apparently the UN Security Council has washed their hands of it. I think many countries in the West are sick and tired of always trying to bring peace in an area that obviously isn't willing to work towards or keep the peace. I mean think of it. If everyday you broke up a fight between two of your friends, after awhile, wouldnt't you just get fed up and let them have at it and get it over with? Like my mom used to say when my sister and I fought: "Go ahead and kill yourselves! I'm sick and tired of putting up with it. Do it and get it over with!" Now in most cases this would make people stop and think how silly they're being. In our case it just gave us an excuse when we oput each other through the walls. LOL You can't babysit forever and there comes a time where you have to acknowledge that there's nothing to do and nopoint since they're just going to keep doing what they're doing anyway.

I be fine with that statement if it wasn't for the fact that the US is funding this terror against the Arabs with their tax dollars. The west must intervene because they are already involved.
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Re: Israel Goes To Hell in a hand basket
« Reply #56 on: July 16, 2006, 12:31:01 PM »
I could care less what other countries in the west do. Sure, get your citizens out that are traped, but as for funding, taking sides or getting involved, don't. Canada is on good terms with all the countries involved. It would be in our best interest to condemn the escalaing violence, offer to mediate if wanted and stay the hell out of it. Don't pledge support and take sides, don't send money, weapons or troops. Just stand off to the side and only get involved if asked to help mediate.


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Offline Lonewolf

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Re: Israel Goes To Hell in a hand basket
« Reply #57 on: July 16, 2006, 01:52:40 PM »
Quote
I could care less what other countries in the west do. Sure, get your citizens out that are traped, but as for funding, taking sides or getting involved, don't.

The problem is, that its already a bit late for that now. For once Israel is a construction of the western contries, which has caused those problems in the first place. But that is not even the worst. Pulling out American funds would solve the army problem, but the main problem is, that some raving luneatic decided to sell nukes to Israel, which will be used if Israel feels threatened in its existence. So simple solution? Give the Lebanon, Syria, Iran and Paleastina some Nukes on their own and see MAD work at its best...


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Re: Israel Goes To Hell in a hand basket
« Reply #58 on: July 16, 2006, 02:27:37 PM »
Quote
I could care less what other countries in the west do. Sure, get your citizens out that are traped, but as for funding, taking sides or getting involved, don't.

The problem is, that its already a bit late for that now. For once Israel is a construction of the western contries, which has caused those problems in the first place. But that is not even the worst. Pulling out American funds would solve the army problem, but the main problem is, that some raving luneatic decided to sell nukes to Israel, which will be used if Israel feels threatened in its existence. So simple solution? Give the Lebanon, Syria, Iran and Paleastina some Nukes on their own and see MAD work at its best...

Israel is an Undecalered Nucular power, it pretty much an open secret that they have nukes from somewhere. It really what keeps the Arabs as a group of Nation from pushing Israel back into the see in reaction to clear acts of war.
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Offline Ollieb

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Re: Israel Goes To Hell in a hand basket
« Reply #59 on: July 16, 2006, 02:30:47 PM »
And to think.  All they would have haf to do was a.  not abduct the Israeli soldiers in the first place or b. let them go when Israel told them to or face military action.  Instead they chose c.  Get their butts kicked and escalate a tense situation into one even worse. 

Seems there are some out there that are not happy unless they are on the receiving end of a gunbarrel.
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