40K Online
The Armies of 40k => Space Marines => Topic started by: Aislinn on July 5, 2011, 04:01:58 AM
-
I kinda don't like how GW nerfed the different factions of Marine Chapters, but I am slowly learning to deal with it. So, I was reading the New Space Marine codex, and saw how the Legion of the Damned is a add-on army now, and it got the wheels turning (thought those stopped working ages ago)... but anyhow; I thought, you know the Salamanders should be able to take Heavy flamers as a Heavy weapon choice for Devastators. and I was all yay the Legion of the Damned can :D so i got my brain (or what's left of it) out of the cupboard and thought about changing the paint scheme and whatnot and calling them something like the Promethean Dragons (name could be changed) and adding them to the First Company of my salamanders army. I think it would be cool and would totally fit with the salamanders... cause they seem kinda salamander-y with all their flamers and whatnot.
Any ideas or thoughts on this?
-
Well, do the rest of their rules fit with what you have in mind? Can you make their otherworldliness make sense?
-
It'd be a little hard to justify the deepstriking, fearless and invulnerable save.
If your looking for a heavy flamer unit then sternguard can take them and are a better all round choice IMO. Plus you can model them how you like, even use the legion models perhaps.
-
It'd be a little hard to justify the deepstriking
No it wouldn't. Teleporters.
fearless
No it wouldn't. They shall know no fear!
and invulnerable save.
That's what I was getting at with my own post. RAW, they don't technically have an armour save, only the invulnerable save, so if there are still things out there that ignore invulnerable saves, you're on your own...
If your looking for a heavy flamer unit then sternguard can take them and are a better all round choice IMO. Plus you can model them how you like, even use the legion models perhaps.
That, and Sternguard aren't Slow and Purposeful, which means you're not crippling yourself by using unnecessarily slow Legionnaires (who also get fewer heavy flamers).
Consider also that if Salamanders, then Vulkan He'stan, and more heavy flamers means more things Vulkan gets to enhance.
-
actually they do fit. all around. cause they are from the first company and are a special unit to the Salamanders I was planning on giving them Drake scales (3+ invuln) and that would solve that dilemma. as far as the other rules, the Deepstriking yes, cause the rest of my army is, and slow and purposeful: cause the average Salamander is Slower than the other space marines as far as reflexes go. So that is my thoughts on that.
Any other ideas? all the feedback so soon was awesome :) thanks
-
But Sallies aren't slower than normal humans.
I see your idea. Does sound quite cool.
-
But Sallies aren't slower than normal humans.
I see your idea. Does sound quite cool.
I sure hope they aren't slower than Guard. haha. but really I just like it cause even tho they will mozey on down the board slow after they drop in... they will take fewer casualties cause of the invuln save.
But in general, I am taking them as an elite, and as such... they probably won't be in every game. same goes for the terminators and whatnot. Stuff Like elites I might take one as the game calls for it. But I wanna make sure I get the fluff down for these guys before I use them.
-
So, I was reading the New Space Marine codex, and saw how the Legion of the Damned is a add-on army now
This threw me what codex are you reading? My 5th edition codex says they are an elite choice not an add-on army. My apologies if I misunderstood your statement.
I to run a derivative of the Salamanders and have had some issues. Like the guys who are the most into flame throwers and melta's do not have widest variety of weapons of that nature. The actual chapter that has the widest variety the Blood Angels for some damned dumb ass reason (if your unfamiliar they also get pistol versions of flamers and melta's). Disregarding that as you mentioned Devastators can not carry Heavy Flamers.
If you are looking for a more salamander feel to your army I would use sternguard with Heavy Flamers instead of legion of the damned. From what I have read it fits better with the Salamanders. Not trying to be a fluff nazi here just my personal opinion. The Salamanders are some of the best weapon smiths out of all the Space Marine Chapters they craft and care for there own weapons over centuries. Salamanders also have not spawned a single successor chapter in the 10,000 years since the Horus Heresy (at least none they have ever officially documented). So saying there troops are a bit rarer and thus more expensive than your typical Ultramarine knock off is an understatement. Sternguards with there increased attacks, better moral, weapons options, and ammo variants just talk more to the salamanders the fact that they can carry combi's as well since those are described as hand crafted combinations of different weapon types.
I agree with you as I am not a fan of the 5th Edition Space Marine Codex with its watered down chapter individualism. I have long said to the folks in my gaming club that they were 6 pages short of finishing the codex. There should have been an alternative rules page for each of the 6 1st founding Chapters/Legions covered in the book (Imperial Fists, Ravenguard, Salamanders, White Scars, Iron Hands). They could have simply set up the Ultramarine rules as the standard and said if your going to make an Imperial Fists chapter (or founding off of a Fists chapter) you replace chapter tactics with this, heavy bolters cost 5 pts less etc etc etc.
P.S. However keep in mind if I remember correctly in 4th edition the variant rules for the Salamanders actually allowed them to be the only chapter to carry Multi-Meltas. Even though I think this is the most useless heavy weapon to put in a devastator or tactical squad it will add a Salamander feel to your army fluff wise.
-
Salamanders also have not spawned a single successor chapter in the 10,000 years since the Horus Heresy (at least none they have ever officially documented).
Not necessarily true. The Sallies admittedly didn't take part in the Second Founding but there's nothing to suggest that they had no successors at all in later Foundings. The Black Dragons and Storm Giants are at least suspected to be Salamander descendents, and perhaps future background (possibly in a Deathwatch supplement) will reveal official descendents.
Point is that they potentially could, not that they absolutely can't. They're not Space Wolves.
If you are looking for a more salamander feel to your army I would use sternguard with Heavy Flamers instead of legion of the damned. From what I have read it fits better with the Salamanders. Not trying to be a fluff nazi here just my personal opinion. The Salamanders are some of the best weapon smiths out of all the Space Marine Chapters they craft and care for there own weapons over centuries. Salamanders also have not spawned a single successor chapter in the 10,000 years since the Horus Heresy (at least none they have ever officially documented). So saying there troops are a bit rarer and thus more expensive than your typical Ultramarine knock off is an understatement. Sternguards with there increased attacks, better moral, weapons options, and ammo variants just talk more to the salamanders the fact that they can carry combi's as well since those are described as hand crafted combinations of different weapon types.
No mention of dragonfire bolts?
...mind you, I only just remembered them myself.
-
Not necessarily true. The Sallies admittedly didn't take part in the Second Founding but there's nothing to suggest that they had no successors at all in later Foundings. The Black Dragons and Storm Giants are at least suspected to be Salamander descendents, and perhaps future background (possibly in a Deathwatch supplement) will reveal official descendents.
Point is that they potentially could, not that they absolutely can't. They're not Space Wolves.
Hence the "at least none they have ever officially documented" in the parenthesis in that statement. The "they" being GW or there proxies the authors of the Black Library and Forge World.
Good call on the Dragonfire Bolts yet another good reason why sternguard have a very Salamander feel to them.
-
Not necessarily true. The Sallies admittedly didn't take part in the Second Founding but there's nothing to suggest that they had no successors at all in later Foundings. The Black Dragons and Storm Giants are at least suspected to be Salamander descendents, and perhaps future background (possibly in a Deathwatch supplement) will reveal official descendents.
Point is that they potentially could, not that they absolutely can't. They're not Space Wolves.
Hence the "at least none they have ever officially documented" in the parenthesis in that statement. The "they" being GW or there proxies the authors of the Black Library and Forge World.
Fair enough. For some reason I -- in my typical awake-for-five-minutes "blargh, I need coffee" state -- interpreted that as relating to the table of Second Founding successors in the Codex. My fault entirely.
-
hey guys thanks for the ideas. I kinda just wanted the legion of the damned cause they are all about popping in and out of the battlefield and all the icons of flames of their armour. I think the models themselves will look better than the veterans. I mean the special rounds are cool and all, but I would just rely on the regular bolters for stuff and the extra flamers for taking out cover. They just seem to want to last longer cause they have the invul save. and they are slower so it fits with the scary theme of the Salamanders striking fear into opponents. that is my thoughts anyway. the veterans are cool, and I may take Veterans someday... but as far as making a special entry I would rather give that honour to a unit more fitting with the fluff that already exists in Salamanders. I just love the flames and deepstriking of the Legionnaires. Besides, I am going for model looks not necessarily how much stuff the model can take.
-
hey guys thanks for the ideas. I kinda just wanted the legion of the damned cause they are all about popping in and out of the battlefield and all the icons of flames of their armour. I think the models themselves will look better than the veterans. I mean the special rounds are cool and all, but I would just rely on the regular bolters for stuff and the extra flamers for taking out cover. They just seem to want to last longer cause they have the invul save. and they are slower so it fits with the scary theme of the Salamanders striking fear into opponents. that is my thoughts anyway. the veterans are cool, and I may take Veterans someday... but as far as making a special entry I would rather give that honour to a unit more fitting with the fluff that already exists in Salamanders. I just love the flames and deepstriking of the Legionnaires. Besides, I am going for model looks not necessarily how much stuff the model can take.
So... you really aren't looking for any advice/input at all then. The point of this thread was more of a "hey look what I'm gonna do" and I guess you were just looking for people to tell you how awesome your idea was?
-
well hey now. that wasn't it. I wanted to know if the idea totally sucked, and made sense. I mean I made the fluffy rules, kinda wanted input on if it needed changes. the fluff would be the same for whatever unit I use, more or less: an elite choice with the ability to take at least one Heavy flamer. I could use guardsmen and make fluff for them and give them a fancy name as long as it made sense. I am not really looking for imput on the models, rules would be cool, but I like the flame emblems on the Legionnaires.
So, I mean If I did use Sternguard vet rules, I would still take the legionnaire models is all I am saying. but personally I see more of them in my friends's lists, and i wanted a few models that would stand out.
-
So, I mean If I did use Sternguard vet rules, I would still take the legionnaire models is all I am saying.
This is more or less what we're suggesting, and in fairness, the Legion models do look sufficiently badass for that to be a deciding factor -- they look way better than the Veteran minis. Shame they're not plastic.
-
So, I mean If I did use Sternguard vet rules, I would still take the legionnaire models is all I am saying.
This is more or less what we're suggesting, and in fairness, the Legion models do look sufficiently badass for that to be a deciding factor -- they look way better than the Veteran minis. Shame they're not plastic.
Or finecast. Then people could take weapons they might actually want to take.
-
well I do prefer metal actually. I just don't like the plastic cause it is harder for me to work with sometimes. but that is just a preference thing.
More or Less I just like being able to model drake scales on the already fiery, Legionnaires. cause then they would be flamey and have the scales and be extra "fluffy." whereas, if I took the vets, then instead of the invul save I would get extra weapons and different ammunition, which in my opinion is secondary to the squads survivability.
-
which in my opinion is secondary to the squads survivability.
That's just a poor excuse for not using the rest of your army properly to support them, in my opinion. Granted, Marines are not Eldar, so you don't have to go quite as overboard as they do, but assuming your units can support themselves on their own is not how you win games. Legion are not a deathstar.
-
I am just putting that out there for this special unit. I have played other armies like eldar and SOB's with great success.
I will support them of course, but anything that can further their survivability will be greatly appreciated. just like you wouldn't make a commander without giving him a force field of some kind. If my unit of marines can take a mystical invulnerable save I will take that. Add to that, that their armour has icons of flames all over it and it just fits. all I got to do is make up some drake scales and stuff to put on the guys. Ya, the sternguard will last long with more firepower but not much longer cause they have the same armour as a normal marine.
-
all I got to do is make up some drake scales and stuff to put on the guys.
If your looking for a good source of kit bashable drake scales a good idea and one ive seen used quite successfully for Salamander conversions is the the fantasy Lizardman Army. Lot's of little useful bits there.
-
I think I saw somewhere, that the LotD USED to be Fire Dragons. I may be wrong but I definatly saw that USED to be called something else.
Also:
Here's three more I found (all non-official):
Fighting Tigres.
Promethean Dragons.
Screaming Cobras.
Angels of Deliverence.
-
I think I saw somewhere, that the LotD USED to be Fire Dragons. I may be wrong but I definatly saw that USED to be called something else.
Are you meaning the Fire Hawks? I think I saw on Lexicanum one time that the LotD were the remnants of the Fire Hawks or something like that.
Ah, here we go. They are believed to be the remnants of the Fire Hawks chapter.
-
Yeah, I knew it was Fire 'something' thanks. I couldn't find a link.
-
I love that idea about using Lizardmen bits. I haven't really looked at them, so I must now. I have also come up with a few new ideas for the dragons while i was on vacation. so here we go: Make special rules for them that allow them to exchange bolters for flamers at an undecided amount of points. and the only heavy weapons they can take are heavy flamers. this would make this unit the perfect anti-infantry unit. which is what i hoped for them. feed back is welcome so let the comments fly
-
I love that idea about using Lizardmen bits. I haven't really looked at them, so I must now. I have also come up with a few new ideas for the dragons while i was on vacation. so here we go: Make special rules for them that allow them to exchange bolters for flamers at an undecided amount of points. and the only heavy weapons they can take are heavy flamers. this would make this unit the perfect anti-infantry unit. which is what i hoped for them. feed back is welcome so let the comments fly
That sounds like a really good idea. Are you going to leave all the anti-tank to your vehicles?
-
I love that idea about using Lizardmen bits. I haven't really looked at them, so I must now. I have also come up with a few new ideas for the dragons while i was on vacation. so here we go: Make special rules for them that allow them to exchange bolters for flamers at an undecided amount of points. and the only heavy weapons they can take are heavy flamers. this would make this unit the perfect anti-infantry unit. which is what i hoped for them. feed back is welcome so let the comments fly
I'm not a fan of that idea, unless it's for a really really high amount of points. Yes it would make them the perfect anti-infantry unit, which is why it's not a great idea. 10 marines firing 10 flamer templates turn after turn is pretty crazy, if you really want flamers you can make something similar with sternguard veterans and combi flamers. Which is codex legal and not quite as strange. If it's only you using these rules then just limit yourself to only the heavy flamer option too.
Also think sternguard are a perfect choice for your LotD models too. Sternguard have a brilliant Elite space marine feel to them and Legion of the damned are pretty weird ghosty men. I'm also thinking that a 3++ save on a whole marine squad is pretty unlikely. The only reason I can see Vulkan having a 3++ save is the fact that he is wearing one of the super duper rare artefacts he's looking for. I wouldn't even assume Tu'Shan has one of those.
-
well see, this idea for a flamer heavy list occurred when I was conversing with one of my comrades. I was saying what if I made an army that used all/mostly flamers even for the troops? and he said for a house rule I would let u try it out. so I am lookin to do that, but first I want to get the first company veterans all straightened out. I think that a invul save for them may be good, maybe I will change it to a 4++, I only wanted it a three just cause the drake scales give 3++ so if they hunted a drake and took its scales they would have that, and I could model it on them. however if 4++ sounds better for a non special character then that can happen too. Also I am a big fan of one unit does one thing and does it really well, so I like the A-IFT power of flamers/heavy flamers. other troops may be less specialized but at least this one unit will be: which is why I won't take them in every game.
-
well see, this idea for a flamer heavy list occurred when I was conversing with one of my comrades. I was saying what if I made an army that used all/mostly flamers even for the troops? and he said for a house rule I would let u try it out. so I am lookin to do that, but first I want to get the first company veterans all straightened out. I think that a invul save for them may be good, maybe I will change it to a 4++, I only wanted it a three just cause the drake scales give 3++ so if they hunted a drake and took its scales they would have that, and I could model it on them. however if 4++ sounds better for a non special character then that can happen too. Also I am a big fan of one unit does one thing and does it really well, so I like the A-IFT power of flamers/heavy flamers. other troops may be less specialized but at least this one unit will be: which is why I won't take them in every game.
I understand where you're coming from really do but just wanted to say that a ten man squad armed with flamers is deadly against most infantry units in the game, even a squad of terminators would suffer under 10 templates. I just think sternguard are your perfect unit. Of course I'm not trying to discourage you from making your own unit, but perhaps use sternguard as a base because most of the work has already been done in the codex, you just need to add points values for your cloaks.
Not sure where the idea of drake scale cloaks granting brilliant invulnerable saves comes from apart from Vulkan? The last I've seen was the salamanders mantle in the Armageddon codex which stopped people being instant killed. Perhaps this is a nicer route to go down if you don't want to start paying mega points for an iron halo save. (I'd suggest something that's make them tougher against basic infantry attacks for example. So -1 Str to shooting attacks of Str 4 and under).
-
that does sound intriguing... so maybe enhanced toughness marines? but better toughness means they can still be killed, by things that ap them. hmmm, very perplexing. Well maybe I will still use the Legion models, but have the rules be more like: they can take flamers instead of bolters, and heavy weapons must be heavy flamers. the sergeant can take a thunder hammer and combat shield maybe? and all the models have drake scales which makes them toughness 5.
-
Go for Chaos and play Nurgle if you want Toughness 5 Marines. Problem solved. Sounds like you're just trying to formulate an invincible uber unit now because you don't like being given sensible advice (you want flamers, Sternguard get them by the bucket load)
-
as far as I understand it sternguard only get two heavy flamers so that is not a bucket load, and I don't want T5 marines. I just want a specialized unit that has drake scales and flamey stuff... the comments are telling me that an invul save is not cool for a unit of marines. I am ok without the invul save but the drake scales have to do something otherwise they are just going to be sternguard, but they are not intended to be sternguard: hence I went through all the trouble to come up with fluff and whatnot for a special unit. so they should be special, not just an elite unit for a vanilla marine army.
so, i guess what i want is advice on making a special unit. not advice for being a codex marine player and following what is in the books.
-
as far as I understand it sternguard only get two heavy flamers so that is not a bucket load
Every model in the unit is entitled to a combi-flamer (boosted by Vulkan if you take him, and really, why wouldn't you?), and incendiary bolter shells that ignore cover. I'd class that as a bucket load of burny stuff.
and I don't want T5 marines
Unless I'm misinterpreting something here, this runs counter to what you said two posts before: , but have the rules be more like: [...] all the models have drake scales which makes them toughness 5.
So clearly T5 entered into your thought processes somewhere.
I just want a specialized unit that has drake scales and flamey stuff... the comments are telling me that an invul save is not cool for a unit of marines.
I'm practically giving you a unit that has flamey stuff! You're just not seeing it for whatever reason.
And no, the I-save is not cool, because A) it conflicts with your theme B) some Codices have units that ignore I-saves, and considering that the Legion don't have armour saves (by RAW), you're absolutely buggered if you face off against old-style Witch Hunters. Psycannon bolts and Blessed Promethium will completely wreck a Legion unit, and I'm sure you'd find it jarring for a unit of Sallies of all people to be running scared of a big flamer.
I am ok without the invul save
EMPEROR BE PRAISED! Finally.
but the drake scales have to do something
...Uh, look impressive? Distinguish them from other Marines in power armour? Generally showcase their badassery?
otherwise they are just going to be sternguard
This is in no way a bad thing.
but they are not intended to be sternguard: hence I went through all the trouble to come up with fluff and whatnot for a special unit.
Then pray tell, why is it not in the Forge?
so they should be special, not just an elite unit for a vanilla marine army.
Synergy, mate. You play Eldar, you should know what I'm talking about there. Sternguard get loads of flamey stuff. Vulkan makes flamey stuff better. A blinged-out Rhino can get them to the front lines, or indeed a drop pod if you want to preserve the deep strike. See what I'm getting at? 'cos Sallies sure as hell aren't vanilla -- they're more like a mint choc chip. And there are ways to get that across.
so, i guess what i want is advice on making a special unit. not advice for being a codex marine player and following what is in the books.
From what I gather a good player can devise any number of different themes without leaving the confines of the Codex, and Codex: Space Marines arguably has the most options to play with for creating your own army as you see fit. So this should be much easier than with, say, Dark Eldar, or Orks, both of whom are much more restricted in terms of theme-choices.
-
C: SM is allot like the Eldar dex in the fact that they share some of the same limitations. You want to make your Eldar craftworld A eldar you paint them a certain way gear them a certain way give them HQ xyz and now they are eldar of craftworld A not craftworlds B, C, and D. But when you get right down to it a guardian is a guardian is a guardian no matter what color you paint him.
That is the limitation you are running into in C SM. We can paint them blue give them missile launchers and call them Ultramarines, paint them green give them multi-meltas and call them Salamanders, and I don't know what they hell you give them to make them Ravenguard but you get the idea! You fluff them up give them some unique looking bits but a sternguard is a sternguard is a sternguard they all function off the same rules.
On a side note the Chaos SM dex has the same issue as well. In a perfect world we could all have special rules and I wish there was some exchange rule A for rule b or if you chose these guys these weapons cost XX as opposed to YY but during 5th edition in which the codex was written they were all about simplifying things and trying to make everything a 3 page pamphlet instead of proper codexes. I am with ya I want more variety myself more ability to customize and make things truly unique but its like the old saying goes..."if life gives you lemons make lemonade". In this case if life gives you Sternguard paint'em green and call'em Promethian Dragons :)
-
ok. I see what you are saying about the sternguard, I really do. and I know I can be hard to understand with all my contradicting posts. sorry :)
So here is what I really want: 1) def want to use the Legion models. 2) correct me if I am wrong but aren't combi-flamers one time use flamers? that seems pretty crappy and I would rather take a standard bolter. 3) I like the sternguard and I respect them as an elite unit, but I really don't want to make a sternguard unit. or I would skip all of the extra crap and time wasted on buying cool models and modelling drake scales and just buy standard codex elites like every other marine player I know. 4) I want my salamanders to stand apart from all the other salamander players I know by taking the time to construct my own elite unit that fits better with the fluff in my opinion. which constitutes to a unit that could take all flamers if they want, or not. that is all. and I want the drake scales to have a purpose. I am talking about real dragon scales here... not some lizard scales. i mean the kind of dragon that even space marines would have a hard time lifting. something with that tough of skin would have to do something when added on to armour.
-
Combi-flamers are bolters with all the sternguard special ammo (inculding dragonfire bolts) plus a one-shot flamer and with vulcan a single twinlinked shot is great for 5pts.
Legion can only get one heavy flamer, sternguard can get two, and everyone else can take a flamer if thats what you want. Most Salamanders have drake cloaks of somekind, at least the elite ones like termies and sternguard (Basically the entire first company) and some sergeants.
-
2) correct me if I am wrong but aren't combi-flamers one time use flamers? that seems pretty crappy and I would rather take a standard bolter.
One use flamers plus special ammunition. The good thing about this is that they are cheap, they still allow you to shoot at range and deal with various enemies. Also, how many times do you expect to fire your flamers and do you expect to fire all of them at once? Once per game isn't so bad because if you have a whole unit you could ration the shots out (if you think you're likely to be flaming twice). So 4 of them shoot the first time + 2 heavy flamers. Then the other 4 shoot second time + 2 heavy flamers.
Don't forget there are plenty of reasons why you wont be able to fire your flamers anyway, an opponent with half a brain wont let you flame him turn after turn. You'll need to get in range, place all of your models in good positions to fire (pretty difficult out of a rhino...), not get bogged down into combat.
3) I like the sternguard and I respect them as an elite unit, but I really don't want to make a sternguard unit. or I would skip all of the extra crap and time wasted on buying cool models and modelling drake scales and just buy standard codex elites like every other marine player I know.
What you are saying here is that you want to be able to do unfluffy things because you're spending loads of time converting the models. I'm converting some honour guard with cloaks because it makes sense for the most elite veterans in my salamanders army to have cloaks and artificer armour. Doesn't mean they should all get invulnerable saves.
4) I want my salamanders to stand apart from all the other salamander players I know by taking the time to construct my own elite unit that fits better with the fluff in my opinion. which constitutes to a unit that could take all flamers if they want, or not. that is all. and I want the drake scales to have a purpose. I am talking about real dragon scales here... not some lizard scales. i mean the kind of dragon that even space marines would have a hard time lifting. something with that tough of skin would have to do something when added on to armour.
I think the main problem is that most people won't share your opinion that this is fluffy. A unit of ten salamander veterans all wielding flamers and with super duper cloaks is unheard of. They are at heart a codex astartes chapter and follow most of the same basic rules in organisation at a squad and company level. Just with variances, they don't use certain units as much but they lean towards certain types of weapon more, but within usual squad organisation.
I'm not sure why you think sternguard are such a bad choice really, how often do you see a squad of ten sternguard all with flamers and converted up with cool scaled cloaks? I haven't seen any so far (though I'm now tempted myself). If you really want to beef up the unit then use a librarian as a HQ, take the avenger for more flame goodness. Then take force dome to allow your librarian to 'fortify the once living scale cloaks with warp energy' or some such thing.
-
about the whole invul save thing. it doesn't have to be an invul saave. it could be +1 to the armour save, or allow failed armour saves. As far as Sternguard go, i like them and i may use them as well. but this unit isn't going to be a sternguard unit: hence why i didn't name this post Cool-Looking Sternguard.
And about the flamer thing: i said they have the option to take all flamers, which translates to me as any model can upgrade to a flamer for like 5 points or something. and if i wanted to take all flamers: i do know the consequences and if they get into combat they are marines in the end and will take out a few guys. plus whatever they shoot at I will charge cause they are assault weapons.
So, the main question I have is: should I just drop this idea and try to work out a new one? or should I just keep the idea but revamp it?
-
Another thing to look at here is if you are making a set of custom rules which it would appear you are several things matter
1. You can only play with people who consent.
2. You need to actually balance the unit and the ability to have 10 flamers for 50 pts is not balanced at all.
3. Everyone having an actual drakescale cloak is frankly as unfluffy as you can get as they are supposed to be nigh on impossible to kill and as such brother captains and chapter masters pretty much being the only people to manage it hence thier suitability to lead.
If you are looking to create a set of custom rules there perhaps you need to move this idea to the forge.
If you looking at genuine advice on how to model this people within the exhisting rule set then keep it here and spitball some ideas.
-
I know it seems unfluffy for a squad to have drake scales, and that seems reasonable. however, i am saying: what if this one squad worked as a unit to take one down and then they all took the scales from this one drake? that seems reasonable to me.
The thing I am really trying to get tho is help with the details of the dragons. I feel like people are trying to sway me toward the sternguard instead. which is fine, cause I may get them now. However, even if I do get sternguard I want to include a more special unit that looks, plays and, and is different. this is what I want: a unit that is more flamey and more specialized than sternguard, and that has more fluffiness than them also. so flamers scales and other special rules are needed. I like the sternguard but I also want to include something else, and that is all I am trying to say. I don't want one over the other, I just want two distinguish the two units. and make a special unit with a special name and different rules.
-
I don't think you understand why people keep pushing the sternguard.
There is nothing else that can be geared out as flamey as the sternguard using the rules of the codex. So without creating special rules there is no way to help you out there.
That being said I just had an idea for modeling some units that would fit your bill and use the existing rules of the codex. Just a warning though they woudl be expensive as hell to make cause they would be completely kit bashed.
Bikers! If my memory serves me correctly and I don't have my codex with me to verify this (having dinner at work...hurray for working late) you can give dam near every rider a flamer. The bikes boost there toughness up to T5 instead of the base of T4. If you put your captain on a bike then they count as troop choices if you take them in units of 5. Also this makes the troop choices more expensive and a little more rare giving them that elite feel even though they would be occupying a standard troop choice slot in your army.
So if you use some Dark Elf cold one models or maybe there are lizardman mounts you could use. Not really sure and just pulling this off the top of my head so bear with me. You use the Cold one mount models as a play as for the bike models. You fluffy up your space marines with drak scale cloaks and such and give them flamers.
Now you have a unit that operates within the confines of the codex looks and feels truly unique and amazing and eveyrthing makes sense. They all have flamers (not to mention twin linked bolters) and it's not the lizards they are riding that give them the T5 you just say it's the cloaks that make them tougher so they are T5. Your standard tactical squad joe space marine well he doesn't have a lizard mount or a cloak so he wouldnt be T5.
It's an idea. Heck you could even tweak around with a storm bolter piece or customize some bolters and arm them with them to reporesent the normally twin-linked bolters found on the bikes. It would make them again feel more salamandery as you could say they get to carry TL bolters cause they hand craft them cause they are uber weapon smiths and such.
-
yes. that does help, but with the fluctuating gravity on the salamander homeworld it makes using landspeeders and bikes harder to use so they have less of them and prefer not to use them. the point I am trying to make is I do want them to have special rules. or I would have just used a codex model. so I just wanted to present them in a quick fashion and present the entire unit... and maybe get help on the details. but the important thing isn't the rules it is the unit. the unit comes first and little details about the rules come next.
I envisioned a unit that was aesthetically pleasing first of all. then I am thinking about a unit that can take all flamers as a sidebar for little missions at home with the buds. and have scales that do something like add armour save or allow re roll armour saves... i don't care what they do but I want them to have a purpose. these things will distinguish them and make them unique. I don't want to play strict codex marines or I would have picked a vanilla marine army like Ultra weenies. the salamanders have very different unit composition. they have 6 companies instead of ten, and each company consists of 120 marines instead of 100. so they are very different and not the same. Given this deviance, I think I can deviate from the codex slightly and give them a special unit. I mean the Fire Drake terminators of the first company veterans are cool, but they are still just elites of the first company, and I want something more.
-
If you want to house rule some uber unfluffy wrecking-ball unit that doesn't fit who the Salamanders are, then obviously do it at home. Anything beyond house rules will need to stay within the realms of what the rules allow.
Seriously, you're getting hung up over these drake scale cloaks now, which have no reason to be able to do anything, and your insistence that they should is getting in the way of just having cool-looking models. Cool-looking models are literally all you need to distinguish your guys from the next player's. By all means give a Sternguard unit badass cloaks, but just leave the pointless magical boost effects at the door. Like I said earlier, it's just an excuse for not using them intelligently, or even well.
-
Last suggestion I can give you is don't use C SM and try the Dark Angel's codex.
Use the Dark Angel's codex if you want to make them table legal at your local shop. There veteran unit's can all take combat or storm shields. Instead of modeling them with combat or storm shields just model them with with drake scale cloaks and say they "play as" combat or storm shields. They can also equip every veteran in the unit with combi-flamer's. Combat shields give you a 6+ invulnerable and storm shields give you the 3+ with about a 10pt difference between the two.
That is about as close as you will ever get to being able to make these guy's table legal in any shop or tournament. Now you would have to build the rest of your army off the DA codex but it's very similar so it shouldn't be a problem.
Also a note about the bikes and speeders. If you reread my suggestion I wasn't using bikes. I was suggesting you use drake style mounts from the Dark Elf fantasy army to have a space marine mounted cavalry that rides drakes around and just use them as "play as" bikes again perfectly table legal in every table from here to the GW studios.
Beyond that sounds like your dead set on just making up some rules to fit whatever you model if that's the case as the one previous poster stated the Forge forum is better suited to that.
-
My suggestion is this if your looking for modelling tips or fluff perspective develop this thread here for actual rule/unit creation head over to the forge as the guys in that forum are much more competant at judging balance etc.
-
k can do. I will move this. probably under a similar themed idea.