Topic: Change "40K" to "The Space Marine game"

[RedTwo]

The only problem I really have is that everything seems to be written from the point of view of the Imperium.  Aside from a couple of short "stories" most of the fluff in Codex:Eldar is written as Imperial Field officers reporting back their findings.  I really dislike this.  Yes, it would be difficult to write a Tyranid codex from a Tyranid point of view, but this limitation isn't there for the Eldar.  I think it would be MUCH more interesting if it were written as an experienced Farseer preparing a new Farseer to lead the Eldar into battle, or an Eldar citizen about to embark on the Path of the Warrior.  They may still want to include "intercepted Mon-Keigh transmission" to explain the things that all Eldar should already know about their society and culture.  After all we don't want the new recruit to look like a child being taught his ABC's.

Preference for models is a matter of taste.  I agree that most of the Space Marine models are pretty dull, but I would never tell someone who liked them that they were wrong.  After all, there's no accounting for taste  

As to fluff, bad arguement.  Where are you going to find Space Marines?  You find them in battle, it's what they do.  It's the Imerial Guard that pull most of the garrison duty - guarding back water planets in the middle of nowhere.  So yes, there are many millions more Imperial Guard troops in the univers than there are Space Marines, but most them are not on the battle field.  On the other hand most of the Space Marines will either be fighting, or heading to a fight.

I, for one, think that the armies of 40K are very well balanced.  There are a few isolated situations that should probably be tweaked, but nothing so broken that it can't be compensated for with tactics.

I do think that there is a lot more material available to the Space Marine players.  However, it's difficult to tell if they are more popular because there is more material, or if there is more material because they are popular.  GW (and any company for that matter) is obviously going to focus on what is making the most money for them.  Personally, I don't really feel that my Eldar are being neglected.  It's true that GW does not currently produce our basic transport and one of our basic troop selections, but in all honesty even if they did I would most likely still customize my own models for these units.

[Niran of Asha An]

If the reason more people play marines than any other army is they're the good guys in the boxed set then make more than one boxed set, they should treat all fluff evenly and not have the game be 'the imperium fights the evil aliens.'  Even exposure by customers to all the races would quickly create balance.  Tactically I don't think they're unfair but It does seem like GW pushes them a little much.

ps.  Young King, with your apparent distate for the Eldar I find it surprising you do want to play them.  You clearly find them the cheesiest of armies, therein lies the temptation perhaps?

[TeKnO ShEeP]

Or is it because GW has chronically favored Marine/Chaos forces since 3rd edition in both models and rules?

Yes, definitly yes.  For all of you who say bs to this, eat this.  In every Chapter Approved, there has never, ever been anything about eldar.  Never.  Every other race has had a chapter approved, including Tau and necrons, but never eldar.

[Scars]

please. stop moaning. the fact of the matter is GW would have crashed LONG ago if they didn't have SM. no, they wouldn't have been able to crash because they wouldn't have got off the ground. SM are fine. they have good fluff and have cool models. anyone who denies that the space marine sprues are the most interchangeable, effective, flexaible sprue is lying or has never seen them.

[TheMightyPikachu]

not complaints about their quality, which is high, but their quantity compared to anyone else

[klardom]

the fact of the matter is GW would have crashed LONG ago if they didn't have SM. no, they wouldn't have been able to crash because they wouldn't have got off the ground.

I find that a little incorrect.  If the game was written from an Eldar viewpoint instead of an Imperial one, it probably would have raked in the same profits.  Sure, if GW cut the SMs now, they burn, but that's because at this point over 50% of the GW market is SMs

SM are fine. they have good fluff and have cool models. anyone who denies that the space marine sprues are the most interchangeable, effective, flexaible sprue is lying or has never seen them.

Very true, and nobody has said otherwise (at least I don't think so) the issue here is that the SMs are the pampered babies of GW.  They get a new transport before we get one at all.  They have a good 5 or 6 codexes out, everyone else has 1 or 2.  Everything is written from their veiwpoint.  They are much more adveritesed (look at the BattleWagon!) etc etc etc.

And just as how you can't deny the 2nd quote I made without lying or not having the proper info, you can't deny the above answers (except possible the 1st, as that is my personal openion.  everything else is fact)

[Tufnaz Zagstud]

Why so many marine armies in tournaments:

Flexibility.

The marine armies are the most likely to be able to deal with mission and any opponent from a single 1,500 point list.

[DeadSeraphim]

You have 19 units to choose from not counting HQ!! Marines do have maore units, but most of them are variations of one thing,  like a LS or their tanks!

Just for the sake of argument, go back and re-count those.  As you're not going to count SM units that are variations on a theme, don't count the Jetbikes seperate and don't count the Waveserpent/Falcon/Fireprism as seperate.  Also don't count the Storm Guardians seperatly from the Guardian Defenders, as they're variation of one thing.  Dire Avengers could be completly discounted.  Banshees and Scorpiuons could be counted the same (both HtH aspects after all, just banshees concentrating on anti-armor while scorpions concentrate on mass numbers of attacks).  Farseers and Warlocks are pretty much the same thing (psychers you add to other units or take together as a HQ).

You get the idea, I won't continue further.  Besides, one person's idea of a variation on a theme is another person's idea of a completly different unit.  That's a bit too subective.  Not even counting the number of ways that different squads can be geared-up to fill vastly different roles on the field.

Hardly a valid argument, is it?  So "variations" or not, count the ACTUAL number of units.

The origional point stands, SM have a wider variety of units available.  Some of which are just as hated by Eldar players as Wraithlords are by SM players (*cough, cough, WHIRLWIND, cough*).  The SM community just gets MORE stuff.  Period.

Some people think that's the reason new people pick the SMs.  Others think it's a problem with game balance.  I think it's a combination of the two.  WHFB is a good example of the same environment with balance.  There's no one dominant army.  Sure, people get Army-of-the-Month with the new ones and all that, but there's no one army that has anything close to a 50% market share.  Two games, by the same company, very very similar in both armies and background.  One has a 50% phenominon and one does not.

Sounds like there's something wrong there to me.  But hey, besides trying for a position with GW as a games developer there's not a lot anybody's gonna do about it.

Well, maybe a "Balance the Universe!" campaign on the GW Games Dev board, but you'd have to get them to admit that there's a problem first.

[Jiaurtel]

Nice...! Another SM bashing post. I would add my two cents but every possible thing was said already in every other board on every other site so why bother kicking the dead topic.


I will however add my own spin on why this happened, and you probably know why:

Corporate policy and flawed marketing campaign.
The new generation of 40K'ers is usually 13-14 year old kids with parents money they wanna throw away and GW want to get. So they create an " Army For Dummies" and made it extra spicy. True SM player need not have 3 whirwinds and 2 Venerable Dreads. Space Wolf army of mine is basicaly Wolfguard, Iron Priest and a crowd of BloodClaws. Sort of gang on gang ghetto fight army. My BA is basically Rhinos 2 Death Companies and Assault Squads. And I started those after I finished an Ulthwe and Biel-Tan Hosts. There comes a point in every Young King's life when you get tired of listeing to whines about Starcannons, Wraithlords and other anti Eldar cr*p and you take a horde of Blood Claws ram them down your opponents throat and say: "So What were you saying about me winning just 'cause I cowardly run around and fire overpowered weapons?" Dont rant on SM, go straight to the source and send hatemail to the Marketing and Research in UK!

[TheMightyPikachu]

well, SM flexibility is how u equip your squads
eldar flexibility is what squad u take
so...
SM's got a tac squad...
Marines with bolters, sarge with powersword
meltagun and missile launcher

instead, eldar take some guardians with lances
banshee's, and firedragons

[Tufnaz Zagstud]

I've had a look at the WPS tournaments (UK) for 1999, 2000 and 2001. The army mix is:

Codex Marines   19%
Eldar                   18%
Chaos                   14%
Guard                   10%
Ork                     8%
Dark Angels     5%
Tyranids                     5%
Blood Angels     5%
Space Wolves     4%
Dark Eldar     4%
Sisters Of Battle     3%
Tau                     2%
Necron                     1%

This is of 291 armies, with 34% being loyal marines, and 48% any flavour of marines.

[Disciple of Nagash: GT]

So what! That just proves that the Space Marines are easier to play! If you look at who won those, I almost guarentee that it wasn't a Space Marine player!

[HectorusShadowfall]

It's not who is easier to play or who won the tournament, it's the disproportion of army numbers.  

[Disciple of Nagash: GT]

Well, let's see here, most people start out as space marine, why, because the rules are easy enough to play. Also, they are the cheepest army to buy! If you buy a tactical squad, there is at least 166 points in the box, that's before character upgrades! If you're on a tight budget, a marine army is the way to go because they are cheep and all round not bad to play with!

[Iron Monkey]

There are two reasons I played with Marines when I first started.

1) They were what I had been exposed to. I knew about the space marines and not about other armies.

2) They were cheaper as everyone has been saying. I would have liked to play Squats, but I just couldn't afford em

[INsaim hann]

BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE STUPID! CHAOS MAY BE REALLY GOOD BUT I WAS BEATING AN ORK ARMY AND A SPACE MARINE ARMY WITH 18 GUARDIANS, 2 STRIKING SCORPIONS AND A WRAITHLORD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[MaddogMD]

I agree completely. Too many people play space marines, or it's variants, compared to other races. They may be the easiest to convert, the easiest to play, and may be the main choice of newbies, but they are GW's brainchild, or lovechild, or something like that, and they get all of the attention.

[chimera]

I hate SM so much! They're so boring to look at or even play against. They get the best stuff in the games.

[Spacewolf]

 Well I do agree there are alot of marine players. I do disagree it is because people are stupid or that they do not have tactics ect. GW pushes Marines this is plain and simple truth, alot of people out there look at them as being easy to paint, they pretty much are. But anyone out there is entitled to choose the army they like for what ever reason they want. They pay the money just like you do.
Me I choose Space Wolves because of a strong Danish heritage. I like the whole Norse overtone to them. But I have also looked at other army's to play as well. I have often thought of doing a guard army based on either Pattons 3rd army or Rommels Afrikan corp.
But I would not choose to do that because I was stupid or had anything against another army it would be purely based on what i found to be intersting or any other method I did to chose it.
 I do not know but it just seems kinda petty to bash people because of the army they choose, is not the army you like.

[Disciple of Nagash: GT]

Well, I don't think the space marines are cheep! I think you eldar players don't know how to deal with them!