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Author Topic: Dark Angel Advice Question  (Read 1685 times)

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Offline kaldolaf

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Dark Angel Advice Question
« on: June 30, 2017, 12:25:21 PM »
So a new Warhammer store opened up just a few minutes down the road from me and it's been pretty awesome but rough on the wallet as well.  After getting the store opening limited Captain and Chaplain in Terminator Armor my wife and I decided to start a Dark Angels army since we've both always liked their look.  So we ended up picking up the Dark Angels Gauntlet Tactical Squad and the Dark Vengeance Box (for about 30% off from another local store).

So we now have the following
Company Master (Captain) in Terminator Armor
Company Master in Power Armor
Interrogator Chaplain in Terminator Armor
Librarian in Power Armor
5 terminators (1 with assault cannon)
3 ravenwing bikes
20 tactical marines
1 rhino

My question is what would people suggest we look at getting next?

Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Re: Dark Angel Advice Question
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2017, 03:28:03 PM »
You can build the Dark Angels in a similar line as you would a vanilla marine list.  However, units that are almost an absolute must to pick up, in my opinion, are:
  • Ravenwing Dark Shroud:  Getting that negative to hit can be huge!  The best part is, is that there is no restriction on how being in range of more than one, so if you really want to protect a unit, you run two (or more) of them.
  • Deathwing Knights:  Just everything about this unit is fantastic now
  • Land Raider:  Primarily to use as a transport for your Deathwing Knights, but the variant will depend on what role you want it to play outside of transport.  The standard Land Raider is expensive, but a fantastic way to pack in Lascannons.  The Crusader is if you want to maximize on the transport aspect and beef the squad up beyond the starting five or add characters.  If you go down the Crusader road, I recommend Belial and a Deathwing Ancient to accompany the Knights at the very least.
  • Azrael:  Just an overall solid character.  The rerolls he grants, as well as the invulnerable save, makes him a serious force multiplyer.  I ran him beside 2 units of Intercessors, a squad of Hellblasters, a Dark Shroud, and a Primaris Ancient, and it was all a solid core to the list.


Start with those, and then expand into the Deathwing or Ravenwing.  Both are fantastic.  Hell, expand on basic marines and Primaris as well.  It's all good these days!
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Offline murgel

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Re: Dark Angel Advice Question
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2017, 05:16:33 PM »
...
  • Ravenwing Dark Shroud:  Getting that negative to hit can be huge!  The best part is, is that there is no restriction on how being in range of more than one, so if you really want to protect a unit, you run two (or more) of them.
Ok, I want to make sure I understand why people feel that the Darkshroud bonus stacks.
To me it is quite clear it does not stack.
Reasoning:
It says in the Icon of Caliban rule: "...must subtract 1 from..." "... units within 6" of this model."
This is clearly a singular in both part of the sentence. So you are either within or not and you either subtract 1 or not.(it is digital  ;D)
There is no "of these models" it states "model"  there is not "for each of this model" it just sates a singular. So there can be no stacking. It is as clear as it can get for a GW rule.  :(

Please enlighten me how I can convince my group that this is a stacking bonus.
 
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Offline Lord of Winter and War

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Re: Dark Angel Advice Question
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2017, 05:37:54 PM »
...
  • Ravenwing Dark Shroud:  Getting that negative to hit can be huge!  The best part is, is that there is no restriction on how being in range of more than one, so if you really want to protect a unit, you run two (or more) of them.
Ok, I want to make sure I understand why people feel that the Darkshroud bonus stacks.
To me it is quite clear it does not stack.
Reasoning:
It says in the Icon of Caliban rule: "...must subtract 1 from..." "... units within 6" of this model."
This is clearly a singular in both part of the sentence. So you are either within or not and you either subtract 1 or not.(it is digital  ;D)
There is no "of these models" it states "model"  there is not "for each of this model" it just sates a singular. So there can be no stacking. It is as clear as it can get for a GW rule.  :(

Please enlighten me how I can convince my group that this is a stacking bonus.


It's contentious, but rules as written it stacks. The spirt of the rule is that it probably shouldn't. I'll be expecting a rapid FAQ for things like this. Also, like how St.Celistine is not a unique model, so you can take multiples of her lol.
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Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Re: Dark Angel Advice Question
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2017, 07:03:34 PM »
...
  • Ravenwing Dark Shroud:  Getting that negative to hit can be huge!  The best part is, is that there is no restriction on how being in range of more than one, so if you really want to protect a unit, you run two (or more) of them.
Ok, I want to make sure I understand why people feel that the Darkshroud bonus stacks.
To me it is quite clear it does not stack.
Reasoning:
It says in the Icon of Caliban rule: "...must subtract 1 from..." "... units within 6" of this model."
This is clearly a singular in both part of the sentence. So you are either within or not and you either subtract 1 or not.(it is digital  ;D)
There is no "of these models" it states "model"  there is not "for each of this model" it just sates a singular. So there can be no stacking. It is as clear as it can get for a GW rule.  :(

Please enlighten me how I can convince my group that this is a stacking bonus.
If you look at the previous rendition of the rule, it specifically stated "within range of one or more." 

But let's look at why it will stack:


Enemy is firing at the unit, so you check to see that the Darkshrouds are within range.  You check Darkshroud 1 and reference the rule to ensure you are following it correctly.  Is the unit within the specified range?  Check.  Is your opponent's unit targeting it with shooting attacks?  Check.  Apply the modifier.

Then you check Darkshroud 2 and reference the rule to ensure you are following it correctly.    Is the unit within the specified range?  Check.  Is your opponent's unit targeting it with shooting attacks?  Check.  Apply the modifier.

The key phrasing that allows the ability to stack is that it specifies the Dark Angel units must be within of "this model."  If you meet that qualifier, then you will apply the modifier.  As we've seen from previous editions, when they don't want an ability to stack they will specify being within range of "one or more," and the Darkshroud is a perfect example of that because that was how the ability was written in the previous incarnation.
If there is anything that recent politics has taught us, it is that quotes taken out of context can mean what ever you want them to.
Well I always liked the globals...
I knew I had fans!!!

Quote
"Dark Angels are Traitors" is the 40k equivalent of Flat Earthers.  You can provide all of the proof you want that says otherwise, but people just can't let it go...

Offline murgel

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Re: Dark Angel Advice Question
« Reply #5 on: July 2, 2017, 05:07:06 AM »

If you look at the previous rendition of the rule, it specifically stated "within range of one or more." 

But let's look at why it will stack:
(Image removed from quote.)

Enemy is firing at the unit, so you check to see that the Darkshrouds are within range.  You check Darkshroud 1 and reference the rule to ensure you are following it correctly.  Is the unit within the specified range?  Check.  Is your opponent's unit targeting it with shooting attacks?  Check.  Apply the modifier.

Then you check Darkshroud 2 and reference the rule to ensure you are following it correctly.    Is the unit within the specified range?  Check.  Is your opponent's unit targeting it with shooting attacks?  Check.  Apply the modifier.

The key phrasing that allows the ability to stack is that it specifies the Dark Angel units must be within of "this model."  If you meet that qualifier, then you will apply the modifier.  As we've seen from previous editions, when they don't want an ability to stack they will specify being within range of "one or more," and the Darkshroud is a perfect example of that because that was how the ability was written in the previous incarnation.

I can and do follow your logical approach and at first reading of the rule I came to the same conclusion. I came to discard this conclusion however.
The clear use of two singular formulations in the rule leaves me no choice but to conclude that this bonus will not stack. As a second model uses the same exactly rule with the same reasons... To me it looks and reads as this bonus is digital either zero (0) or one (1).

Lets hope for an FAQ soon.
I'm not sure GW will follow my thinking. If they don't, they would sell quite some Dark Shroud models. (I alone would need 2 more)
sure you have an opinion,
but my swordplay is better than your´s

Take my advice, I never use it.

Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Re: Dark Angel Advice Question
« Reply #6 on: July 2, 2017, 07:25:38 PM »
And they faqd it to be in range of any.
If there is anything that recent politics has taught us, it is that quotes taken out of context can mean what ever you want them to.
Well I always liked the globals...
I knew I had fans!!!

Quote
"Dark Angels are Traitors" is the 40k equivalent of Flat Earthers.  You can provide all of the proof you want that says otherwise, but people just can't let it go...

Offline murgel

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Re: Dark Angel Advice Question
« Reply #7 on: July 3, 2017, 02:58:44 AM »
And specified that it does not stack. Better even they specified that no boni ever stack unless specifically stated so.
 ;D
sure you have an opinion,
but my swordplay is better than your´s

Take my advice, I never use it.

 


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