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Offline SKEETERGOD

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The New Speed Freak List and Tactiks...
« on: June 21, 2017, 12:33:24 AM »
I got my new rule book and the equivalent of the new codex ( Xenos 2) and have poured over them.

I probably missed something somewhere but from what I see for transports is you can only disembark before the transport moves. ( Page 183 right column of the hard back, or page 9 of the download) This means that gone are the days of ramshackling across no mans land and assaulting turn 2. (and the exploding trucks of turn 3) So I am going to have to rethink tactiks for my speed freaks.

Also gone is my "death star" unit of war boss with headwhoppa, pain boy, and ten 'ard boys in a trukk. The slimy gits at GW took away both the headwhoppa and the 'ard boys  >:( (they must have heard that this was a pretty successful unit down at their dungeon, and they can't have that...).

Also gone is that battle wagons are no longer able to be chosen as dedicated transports, and there is absolutely no mention of looted wagons or my skullhamma. (and to note that the death roller has been absolutely nerfed by the same whiney gits in the dungeon at GW).

I noticed that there is no real reason for worrying about LD checks. Unless there is something in someone else's armory that can cause you to take LD checks, the new ork mob rule makes it unlikely you will be running away, and the moral check now applies whether you win or lose a combat, kinda like the old fearless rule.

Good thing is that the new force org charts have some new options to add in more of what you need. You take a battalion detachment to get the three command points and then take outrider detachments to get all your fast attack needs met.   

So, since we can still ride and shoot because we are open topped, I will take the battalion detachment with Boss and pain boy, and three units of boys with shootas to go around doing drive by's. Take a unit of burna boys, a unit of tank bustas, and a unit of 5 nobs and three BWs.
 Then take outrider detachments to get all my death coptas and buggies stuck in.  ;D
 For the HQs of the three outrider detachments I will take meks (one for each BW) to restore wounds to them. Since we don't have to worry about immobilized or weapon destroyed results anymore. (or maybe big meks with KFFs) This gives me six command points, which should be enough for about any ability I might want to buy.

Funny thing is; they have turned my speed freaks into a shooty army.  :o

Now to try to add up points for the army was confusing (pretty bad for an orkcountant you know)
and the power "points" system is also a bit tricky as you have to add more points for more models. For example the power rating points for a boys unit almost doubles when you add in just two boys for a full trukk load. So, I will eventually get them added up both ways, but we will just have to wait on that one (till I finalize my list, I am still looking at getting Badrukk and unit of flash gits stuck in there somewhere).

I also like that there is a flyer detachment, so I can take all three of my planes. The bad thing is that there is no more ongoing reserve, if you fly off the board you are a casualty.  :'(

As for tactiks; I am going to have to work that out. I am still reeling from the not being able to disembark at the end of the transports move, so if you smell something burning it is just my brain working overtime.  ;)

Post Merge: June 21, 2017, 10:13:24 PM
In the future, please use the modify button. Double posting is against the forum rules, and for that reason, the system merged your posts.

Weeelllll then, we have some news for all you speed freaks a bit good and a bit bad. Let me demonstrate. First off, here is my list I used in my last game against umies and won with. The first points listed are from last codex and the second points listed are from Xenos 2 (don't worry mods, just totals, no breakdowns)


WARBOSS: heavy Armor, Boss Pole, TL shoota, Cybork, Headwhoppa   =97/68
(note: wargear modified to kustom shoota and big choppa as the other gear not available)

FAST: 
1:  4 Deffcoptas, Twin Link big shootas,. = 120/276
2:  5 Deffcoptas, Twin Link Rockits,.     = 150/415
3:  5 Deffcoptas, Twin Link Rockits,.     = 150/415


TROOPS
1: 12 BOYS; Slugga and Choppa, NOB, boss pole, Power Claw. = 112/108
DT: TRUKK; Wrecking ball, ram = 45/79;    Total = 157/187
(note: boss poles and rams no longer available)
2: 12 BOYS; Slugga and Choppa, NOB, boss pole, Power Claw. = 112/108
DT: TRUKK; Wrecking ball, ram = 45/79;    Total = 157/187
3: 12 BOYS; Slugga and Choppa, NOB, boss pole, Power Claw. = 112/108
DT: TRUKK; Wrecking ball, ram = 45/79;    Total = 157/187
4: 12 BOYS; Slugga and Choppa, NOB, boss pole, Power Claw. = 112/108
DT: TRUKK; Wrecking ball, ram = 45/79;    Total = 157/187
5: 12 BOYS; Shootas, Big Shoota, NOB, boss pole, Big Choppa. = 108/98
DT: TRUKK; Wrecking ball, ram, = 45/79;;    Total = 153/177
6: 10 ARD BOYS; Slugga and Pain Boy =150/100 (note: ard boys no longer available)
DT: TRUKK; Wrecking ball, ram.= 45/79    Total=195/179

TOTAL = 1493/2278 with a power rating of 136

As you can see the cost of ork vehicles has more than doubled. I do not know if the other races have this problem or not as I do not have their codexie (or codexes, or codices???)  to compare with.

The points of my little list have basically doubled, notice that the cost of the boys went down about the same as the former cost of a boss pole that is no longer an option.

If the games are going to be point based, I see myself as being out numbered and out gunned.

IF the games are by power level then I see the orks as being viable and competitive.

If the games are just bring what you want and try to out cheese the other guy/gal then I see the games as being very long and somewhat souring.

We will have to wait and see how GW is going to run tourneys (if any) and how LGSs are going to handle the new army building.

ON a different note; I think the only disembarking before the transport moves rule can be negated as you can disembark three inches from the front of the vehicle, then move, then advance(if within range of the boss, if not then no advance) and then have the truck assault to take the overwatch, and then have the boys assault. ;D
« Last Edit: June 21, 2017, 10:13:24 PM by SKEETERGOD »
"It needs but one foe to breed a war. And even those who have not swords can still die upon them" (Lady Eowyn)
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Skeetergod: (adj) A crazy fascination for all things combustible mixed with an unhealty lust for red paint. see also Speed Freak

Offline OD from TV

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Re: The New Speed Freak List and Tactiks...
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2017, 12:42:24 AM »
*Blows dust off the old Speed Freak membership card* Is this still valid?

Between the 3 main types of Ork Armies (Footslogger, DreadBash and Speed Freak), the other two have definitely improved more.  That doesn't make Speed Freaks bad, but like so much, we have to adjust with the times.

I probably missed something somewhere but from what I see for transports is you can only disembark before the transport moves.
Nope, you didn't miss anything, this is simply the tradeoff the devs made.  Think of all the armies that couldn't Assault out of Transports that can now, then think to all the Open Topped Transports.  We had the Trukks and Wagons, DE had their Raiders and Venoms, Harleys had their Venom knockoffs, and what did the Imperials have?  They had a scout vehicle (and scouts don't count) and a Forgeworld IG tank (and Forgeworld don't count).  This rule will almost prevent Rhino Rush (although I do think it'll be Razorback Rush this time around).  As Orks this is probably one of the bigger changes that reshapes how we'll play (a definite bummer for the trukk though).

Good thing is that the new force org charts have some new options to add in more of what you need. You take a battalion detachment to get the three command points and then take outrider detachments to get all your fast attack needs met.
I seem to remember there being a limit on Force Org charts based on point level.  I could be wrong, but since I don't have the core rulebook on hand at the moment to check just take this note with some salt.


Also gone is that battle wagons are no longer able to be chosen as dedicated transports, and there is absolutely no mention of looted wagons or my skullhamma. (and to note that the death roller has been absolutely nerfed by the same whiney gits in the dungeon at GW).
All Ded Trans are gone, its a bummer.  In fact Transports across the board are in a new category instead of being Fast options, which is a bit of a bummer.  With Skullhammers I have my fingers crossed that they'll return in an Ork book (they gotta put something in that other than fluff right?). As for the Deff Rolla, at least it survived while the Ram didn't.  I would have loved a return to the 4th Ed Deff Rolla, but we all knew that wasn't going to happen, and as it stands I think it might be the strongest vehicle ccw outside of Dreadnoughts.

Speaking of the Ded Trans though, in my eyes, Trukks will probably be best for Drive By Shooting, which I know is one of your favorite tactics Skeetergod.  And if we're lucky gitz, we can bail out with only a few Wounds left on the Trukk into an objective or cover and keep shooting.

When it comes to shooting and other Speed Freak vehicles, the loss of Twin Link, something I think we all heavily relied on, is a hard pill.  My own personal hopes of bringing back my old Buggy Hell aren't exactly dashed, but also not the most feasible (unless I'm taking Skorchas I guess).  In that Klassic Ork problem of Koptas v. Buggies I feel my strong Buggy position slipping.

Between the Kopta and basic buggy we have the same move, same BS, same Toughness and Save, but different strengths (I don't mean the stat!).  My beloved buggy is slightly cheaper with the added bonus of an extra Wound and strangely enough a couple extra attacks, meanwhile the Kopta with the Fly Keyword can assault those pesky Flyers, and with its move characteristic and optional Killsaw it can really wreck face on that front.  And while it is traditionally ignored by many if not most of us, the optional Bigbomm can do up to 5 Mortal Wounds and being free makes it quite worthwhile.

While I won't claim that there is a definitive coffin nail for the buggy (after all points cost is king), the kicker between which is the best tactical option between the two is in the details of their Outflanking ability, with the Buggies having to stay on the edge and the Kopta getting to move on from it.  At the moment I find myself leaning towards Koptas in what truly is a neverending debate.

Speed Freakiness will occur, regardless of pointcosts.

Peace
~OD
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Offline adamscurr

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Re: The New Speed Freak List and Tactiks...
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2017, 06:20:51 PM »
So on the transports, I think a definite difference is that trukks are no longer driving coffins that you need to get the boyz out of as soon as possible. They seem much more survivable so I plan to keep the boyz in them for a lot longer, preferable for some shooting for a round or two, followed by an assault...

Skeet, I think your idea of using the trukk to soak up overwatch is brilliant. I'm stealing it! :)

As for points, my store is having a tourney this Saturday and they are using points rather than power level. I think people are just used to points, though from your estimates, power level is much better for orks it would seem... I too am interested to see which direction GW heads...

Adam


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Offline SKEETERGOD

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Re: The New Speed Freak List and Tactiks...
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2017, 12:33:35 AM »

After a practice game against an uthwe strike force, I have come up with a couple of new opinions and ideas.

First, we can now take grots in trucks  :o Yes, any unit can take a transport,(of course our only transport is trukks) and grots with better BS would be a hoot to do drive by shootings with.

The trucks are still easy to kill but it took a whole 100 "power level" list to kill three trucks in one shooting phase.

The single death copta "Green Baron" is now worth his weight in gold. I can see a whole army of meks and death coptas, Bwahahahahahaha!!!  8) I haven't fought any flyers this edition yet, but the flying idea of using the coptas to assault planes and other flying things is just too good to pass up.  ;D

The big choppa deals more wounds than a PK, so the boss is keeping his big choppa.

OD, is right the buggies are a bit cumbersome, and the lack of twin link makes them even worse shots than they were. Looks like I will be be reconverting my buggies back to big shootas as they  need the volume to be effective. However they were great for leading the charge.

Also, OD, just a FYI you can use as many of the force orgs that you want up to your power or point limit. It is going to be a bit tricksy to try to field a Green Tide, as they no longer have the option of the 100+ ork boy unit.

Now, just to work out putting flash gits in a BW, and bringing out the biker nobs again.

I will keep you posted
« Last Edit: June 28, 2017, 09:57:01 AM by SKEETERGOD »
"It needs but one foe to breed a war. And even those who have not swords can still die upon them" (Lady Eowyn)
     We orks are not about being the hero; We orks are about being the mob.
                         
Quote from: angel of death 007
Skeetergod: (adj) A crazy fascination for all things combustible mixed with an unhealty lust for red paint. see also Speed Freak

Offline adamscurr

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Re: The New Speed Freak List and Tactiks...
« Reply #4 on: July 2, 2017, 11:06:59 PM »
I too found my buggies a bit lackluster... It's a shame cause deep down, I'm a buggy and bike man/warboss! :)

Twice as many shots for twin linked doesn't translate well into twice as many hits for orks, so we end up paying a lot of points for something that really is less good than before...

Adam


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Offline SKEETERGOD

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Re: The New Speed Freak List and Tactiks...
« Reply #5 on: July 5, 2017, 12:18:43 PM »
I now have two practice games under my belt with the new rules. This is not a batrep, but I will list my army and his army just so you can see what I was up against.

ORKS
Battalion build
Warboss with kustom shoota, big choppa and attack squig
Big mek with KFF and skorcha
4 units of 10 boys slugga and choppa nob with PK mounted in a truck with wrecking ball
1 unit of 10 shoota boys nob with big shoota and big choppa
Pain boy

Fast build
Bat mek
3 deff coptas with rockits and bomb(units of 1)

Fast build
big mek
Skorcha trak
rockit trak
rockit buggy

Eldar list
Farseer
4 units of defenders with missile launchers and each has a warlock with spear
3 vypers with scatter lasers (units of 1)
3 walkers two with scatter laser and missile launcher, one with scatter laser and star cannon
1 vauls gun unit 2 D cannons 1 weaver
5 Dark reapers with Maugan Ra

Both Games were RLU (rule looking upping) and fairly slow paced as we learned about the new rules and how our armies played.

The first game the eldar THINK they had a major victory, but my boss was sneaky and killed the farseer so he can't snoop on our plans anymore. (and he and the painboy escaped off the board with about eight boys who will be the new nobs soon)

I found out the eldar are really good at killing trucks, and once the boys are out they get shredded pretty fast. Something that came up is with the new everybody split fires thing, the missile launchers would kill the truck and the guardians would mow down the boys. Much RLU on that one.

The lack of twin link really hurt the shooting of the buggies, but they were good for tying up guardian units so they couldn't shoot my trucks anymore. The skorcha buggy really killed off some guardians, but we had a RLU about the trakk moving (doesn't say they are locked in combat) so I would move and re-skorch, but he argued that was withdrawing as I moved to two inches away and so  I couldn't shoot. We rolled for it and so the skorcha got to shoot twice before missiles blew it to pieces and then it didn't explode (probably because it wasn't next to any other orks).

The coptas were great, they kept the D cannons from shooting all game and even killed 2/3 of the unit.

The eldar walkers are just deadly, all that shooting really hurts, but again a deff copta kept them tied up after turn 3 (he should have taken them as three units of 1)

Maugan Ra is really hard to kill, try as I might the orks had to let him go so we can kill him later.

Game two he kept his list the same but split his walkers into units of 1 and his big guns into units of 1. I replaced all my buggies with coptas with shootas and bombs. I also traded one unit of boys for a unit of grots in a truck led by bat mek.

Again, the eldar THINK they had a massive victory. Again, we sneaky orks killed off another farseer, and this time we got rid of those pesky reapers. However the boss and both big meks made it safely off the board.

The sheer fire power of his list again blew up three trukks on turn one. But the grot drive by truck really shined and actually massacred a unit of defenders and the LD check at the end of the turn caused the warlock and gunners to disappear. Of course the grot truck was targeted by almost everything he had the next turn, but is was worth it.

Maugan Ra is really hard to kill. Again, we had to let him go so he will keep bringing us farseers to kill.

The coptas again shined, doing more killing than even the boss who only killed one farseer and two guardians. Coptas are now going to be a staple of my list.

We are planning a third game, maybe this one I will take pictures and post a real batrep.
"It needs but one foe to breed a war. And even those who have not swords can still die upon them" (Lady Eowyn)
     We orks are not about being the hero; We orks are about being the mob.
                         
Quote from: angel of death 007
Skeetergod: (adj) A crazy fascination for all things combustible mixed with an unhealty lust for red paint. see also Speed Freak

Offline adamscurr

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Re: The New Speed Freak List and Tactiks...
« Reply #6 on: July 7, 2017, 09:14:45 AM »
Thanks for the not-batrep Skeet! :)

Smeldar, my nemesis... :) I'm glad you had a good time. I'm concerned about the trukks being blown away. I do have to wonder if he can split his fire like that... I mean, can you use the heavy weapon to blow away a vehical, then have the small arms shoot the guys. Don't you have to declare what you are targeting all at once? Or am I just thinking like an older edition guy... :)

Adam


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Offline SKEETERGOD

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Re: The New Speed Freak List and Tactiks...
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2017, 09:22:01 AM »
Yes, we did much RLU during the games, and the new rules are simple to find and easy to use. That being said; a lot of sneaky trikses that many of the old rules were in place to prevent are now able to be used again. Like the heavy weapon killing the truck and the rest of the squad mowing down the dismounted boys. 

I heard there is an FAQ but was unable to find it. We will see if this edidition ends up being a rule book and then another book of FAQs like certain last editions.

And... I just saw that GW will be releasing codexes. YUP! to get more money out of our pockets we will soon have to get a codex as well as the xenos 2 book to run orks. Maybe, just maybe, the looted wagon and skullhamma will be in there, as well as the option to put the Waagh banna on a biker. (fingers crossed but not holding breath)
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/05/your-codex-is-coming-july-5gw-homepage-post-1/?utm_source=Warhammer+Community&utm_campaign

« Last Edit: July 12, 2017, 09:52:57 AM by SKEETERGOD »
"It needs but one foe to breed a war. And even those who have not swords can still die upon them" (Lady Eowyn)
     We orks are not about being the hero; We orks are about being the mob.
                         
Quote from: angel of death 007
Skeetergod: (adj) A crazy fascination for all things combustible mixed with an unhealty lust for red paint. see also Speed Freak

Offline Roboknee77

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Re: The New Speed Freak List and Tactiks...
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2017, 09:34:45 AM »
Good Read, Skeeter.  I'm thinking I'm gonna have to break out my Trukks to help get my Boyz into combat.  Footslogging is too slow and assault weapons after advancing are just too inaccurate.

As for the FAQ, you can grab them here.

Offline Irisado

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Re: The New Speed Freak List and Tactiks...
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2017, 10:23:57 AM »
I heard there is an FAQ but was unable to find it. We will see if this edidition ends up being a rule book and then another book of FAQs like certain last editions.

Roboknee has already linked to it directly, but the discussion topic can be found here.

Quote
And... I just saw that GW will be releasing codexes. YUP! to get more money out of our pockets we will soon have to get a codex as well as the xenos 2 book to run orks. Maybe, just maybe, the looted wagon and skullhamma will be in there, as well as the option to put the Waagh banna on a biker. (fingers crossed but not holding breath)

This matter is also being debated on the forum.  You can find the discussion here.

Alternatively, for those who haven't yet purchased the Xenos 2 index, you can use Ork cunning and wait for the Ork codex to be released and save yourself some money for purchasing more Orks ;).
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Offline SKEETERGOD

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Re: The New Speed Freak List and Tactiks...
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2017, 11:58:57 AM »
I looked at the FAQ, there is nothing there about the heavy weapon killing the truck and the squad mowing down the dismounted boys. So, I guess, this means that it is a legal tacktik in this edition. (Now, to figure out how to use to ork advantage Bwahahahahaha... snort)
"It needs but one foe to breed a war. And even those who have not swords can still die upon them" (Lady Eowyn)
     We orks are not about being the hero; We orks are about being the mob.
                         
Quote from: angel of death 007
Skeetergod: (adj) A crazy fascination for all things combustible mixed with an unhealty lust for red paint. see also Speed Freak

Offline Wyddr

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Re: The New Speed Freak List and Tactiks...
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2017, 12:03:40 PM »
I looked at the FAQ, there is nothing there about the heavy weapon killing the truck and the squad mowing down the dismounted boys. So, I guess, this means that it is a legal tacktik in this edition. (Now, to figure out how to use to ork advantage Bwahahahahaha... snort)

In the BRB, around where they talk about the Shooting phase, it is pointed out that all weapons need targets before any weapons fire. Since you can't select a target that isn't on the board, you can't blow up a transport with half a squad and shoot the passengers with the other half.

EDIT: Yup, just confirmed this. You have to select all targets then you fire with all models. Since passengers aren't a valid target at the start of the phase, they can't be shot by the same unit that kills the transport.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2017, 03:28:23 PM by Wyddr »

Offline SKEETERGOD

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Re: The New Speed Freak List and Tactiks...
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2017, 10:09:24 AM »
Yes, we did much RLU (rule looking upping)about that. Since you have to declare targets at the start of the shoot phase for that unit you have to declare what each part of the unit is going to shoot at before you roll dice.

So, what he would do would declare that the EML would shoot the truck and the guardians would shoot the boys once the truck is destroyed. He added that he can see the boys as the trucks are open top.

The similar situation occurred when he destroyed a unit of grots that were in front of a unit of boys. Three guardians shot at the two grots and wiped them out and the remaining seven then shot at the unit of boys that had been behind them.

To give you a run up to the situation, his warwalker shot the truck taking off eight wounds. So the EML of the squad took the last wounds of the truck and then the guardians took out the boys that appeared in plain sight.
The first time we did RLU, and we disagreed on the tactic, but there is no wording that prohibits the shooting of the passengers once they are disembarked. So last edition.... We rolled a dice and he won, but I added the caveat that he had to declare his targets before shooting to make it legal. For the rest of the game and the next game he would declare the EML to kill the truck and the guardians to shoot the boys.

This happened a lot, a heavy unit would shoot up the truck taking off eight or nine wounds and then the defender squads would finish off the truck and thin out the boys. (that is why I focused on killing off those reapers last game).

We did all that RLU, and avid discussion, and it is a "loophole" in the new rules. I am sure there will be other less friendly player who will abuse it. Maybe in the next FAQ that gets put out there will be a ruling on it.
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Offline Wyddr

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Re: The New Speed Freak List and Tactiks...
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2017, 11:48:06 AM »
It is totally *not* a loophole. You need to go through the shooting phase rules again. What you have described is expressly illegal.

And you can't "see" the passengers in a transport, open-topped or otherwise. Review the rules for transports, too.

If you want to go through this in more detail, take it to the rules board. I promise you, though, you *can't* do that. This is exactly like target locks and split fire units in previous editions--you have to declare all targets before dice are rolled. You can only select valid targets. Passengers in a transport are not a valid target. End of, man.

Online Blazinghand

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Re: The New Speed Freak List and Tactiks...
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2017, 05:35:33 PM »
It is totally *not* a loophole. You need to go through the shooting phase rules again. What you have described is expressly illegal.

And you can't "see" the passengers in a transport, open-topped or otherwise. Review the rules for transports, too.

If you want to go through this in more detail, take it to the rules board. I promise you, though, you *can't* do that. This is exactly like target locks and split fire units in previous editions--you have to declare all targets before dice are rolled. You can only select valid targets. Passengers in a transport are not a valid target. End of, man.

I believe Wyddr is correct. This is how I read the rules as well, same as the people I play with.
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Offline adamscurr

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Re: The New Speed Freak List and Tactiks...
« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2017, 04:17:52 PM »
Ya... I think he was breaking the rules as well... From a thematic standpoint, it doesn't make any sense that the guardians sat around and twitted their thumbs until the trukk was disabled... :)


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Offline SKEETERGOD

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Re: The New Speed Freak List and Tactiks...
« Reply #16 on: July 18, 2017, 05:01:49 PM »
I will direct him to this board, sure would be nice to settle that one. Maybe he will sign up and try to be another pointy ear member. I thought there might be a shenanigan going on. However to his credit we were (are) still learning to play within the new rule set and there might be some bleed through from other editions that will be a bit harder to unlearn.

While we are at it, is there a better way to kill Maugan Ra? That dude has survived two fights against orks without so much as a single (unsaved) wound. We will have to look at this matter more closely...
"It needs but one foe to breed a war. And even those who have not swords can still die upon them" (Lady Eowyn)
     We orks are not about being the hero; We orks are about being the mob.
                         
Quote from: angel of death 007
Skeetergod: (adj) A crazy fascination for all things combustible mixed with an unhealty lust for red paint. see also Speed Freak

 


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