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Offline Roboknee77

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New Git
« on: July 11, 2016, 03:38:42 PM »
Hello Everybody!

New guy here but you may have read about some of the battles I've played against my friend that got me into the game (see links below).  They give you an idea of what I've tried using and how they've worked.  I've had some success and some spectacular blunders but have been having fun.

mostly I'm looking for some advice on what to add to my 500 point army to make it a 750 point army against my friend's daemon army.  I'm thinking along the lines of some Deffkoptas, maybe some trukks for some mobility, and another unit of something like Burnas or Nobz.

My army so far:

The Dakka Boyz
Ork Combined Arms Detachment

Warboss w/'Eavy Armor, Power Klaw, Bosspole, TL Shoota

12 Shoota Boyz w/Big Shoota, Nob w/ 'Eavy Armor, Bosspole
11 Shoota Boyz w/Big Shoota
10 Lootas
5 Mek Gunz (Lobbas)

I'd also like any advice on what to do against Eldar, I've got another mini-campaign against a mutual friend. (40K Campaign: The Vaults of Kekes'tular)   The Eldar have already fought against the Daemons so I'm expecting a similar army to what was taken in that fight. (500 Point Eldar Vs Tzeentchain Daemons, Purge the Alien)

Anyway, hello, glad to be here and I appreciate any help you guys can give me.


Previous Battles:
Orks vs/ Daemons 1:
500 point Orks Vs Tzeentch Daemons: Crusade

Orks vs. Daemons 2:
500 point Orks Vs Tzeentch Daemons: Rematch!

Orks vs. Imperium 1:
750 Point Vostroyan AM Vs Orks: Big Guns Never Tire

Orks vs. Imperium 2:
750 Vostroyans Vs Orks: Rematch!

Offline dog_of_war

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Re: New Git
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2016, 10:56:12 PM »
Welcome to the most fun army ever to come out of the workshop. You won't always win with an ork army, but you'll never lose because orks don't lose! (see page 58 of your codex)  ;)
And besides, these guys are just plain fun.

As for you the lists you have been running with, they've got some great potential. I'm not sure what you have available to you for models, but I think wyddr afforded you the use of proxies in your first couple games, so this might be a good opportunity to try out some different units.

Some of the big things we have to look at is the point levels you are playing at.

1. consistency
2. durability
3. target priority

Orks are not known for their consistent behaviour and its their randomness that makes them such a fun army. At low point levels though, you are relying on every unit doing its job without a glitch. Look to units that help mitigate randomness with re-rolls and just massive amounts of dice.

For example: lootas are great, but can have a lower amount of hits due to their random shot count and worse balistic skill than a unit of killa kans with grotzookas for similar points. You may lose a single point of strength and AP in their firepower, but that is more than made up in their durability.

You did work out some good target priority balancing of your list, as wyddr had to choose between the lootas, lobbas, and orks, but a combination of deploying too far apart and have slower moving units or units that suffered from moving and shooting, he was able to pick apart your army.

The way your current list is setup you would definitely take advantage of using the castle technique. Have your lobbas and lootas in the rear flanks in some cover with the two units of shoota boyz in the center, being able to intercept or counterattack an enemy charging your ranks. There is plenty of firepower to make any opponent approaching pay dearly and you want to get as many turns of shooting in before you have to engage the enemy because you essentially have a gun-line army build. If you want to continue with this type of build there are some great units you could add for the next 250 point jump.

1. Battlewagon
I know it seems like you're trying to assault the enemy with it but hear me out. Put the lootas inside and they have an armoured fire base to shoot from. You have a plethora of weaponry you can add to the battlewagon to turn it into a devastating long-range shooter on its own and with that great front armour, it's going to withstand a lot of punishment. It would make a great unit to anchor your castle with.

2. Killa Kans
Great, cheap armour with better ballistic skill than an ork and is able to move and shoot. Comes with a handy pint sized klaw, that while not as strong as a power klaw, is not unweildy. I almost always take them with grotzookas for the higher strength and templates for greater number of hits.

3. More orks
The best unit to add to an ork army is more orks. The best upgrade for any unit is more orks. They are cheap and plentiful. Face it, you're running a horde style army. The more bodies in your list the better. The best look on your opponents face is always when he says at the start of the game "I don't have enough to kill all that".

4. Gretchin
Gretchin or Grots, as I call them, are great meat shields, can bog down an enemy unit for a crucial turn or two and can actual do some damage with enough shots from their blastas.

You could go the other way and make a more aggressive assault/drive-by shooting army, but you may need to drop/change some of the elements of your list.

You could put the lootas in a battlewagon, the boyz in trukks and then add koptas, buggies, and/or bikers to fill out the list. The mek gunz just don't seem to fit in that list, but at a higher point level, say 1500+ points, they'd be fine to put back in. At higher point levels you can have different factions of the army performing differently. Half the army could castle, the other could be on the offensive. There are many techinques, hammer and anvil being one of them, that would work with that style of army, but I think at this low point level you need to choose either a stationary/attack from afar list or a mobile/bring the fight to the enemy list.

Let me know if any of this piques your interest and I can go into more detail.

Welcome again to the ranks. I look forward to seeing your next showdown.

Offline Roboknee77

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Re: New Git
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2016, 09:44:10 AM »
Wow, thanks for the advice, there is a lot of stuff in there to think about.  And good point, there's more Orks coming after those pesky daemons, and this time they've learned a thing or two.

What I have available for minis right now is pretty much what I have in my 500 point lists.  And you're right, I'm sure I can get a proxy or two from Wyddr if I want to take a battle wagon.  Other units, like boyz or gretchin will be easy enough to purchase.

The main idea behind this army was to field units that could shoot long distance, like lootas and loobas, and could provide a volume of fire power.  The first game I played with orks I barely did anything but move and get shot.  So, in the second game I played, I was able to bring a lot of firepower to bear on the Imperial Guardsmen.  Pretty much everything was able to shoot every turn, so no unit was wasting time moving into position, or moving to help defend other units.  A mistake I made in my most recent game but one I will learn from.

I see your point about the lootas.  They can throw out a lot of dakka but aren't consistently doing 20-30 shots and they break and run way too easily once they get damaged.  Your battle wagon idea might be a good one, I'll have to think about that when I'm not at work.  If I were to add an HQ figure to them, what would you suggest?

The Mek Guns were nice against the Imperial Guard and I'd had great success against infantry with them.  But yeah, maybe adding some more Boys and Gretchen would be better against what I'm facing in the Deamon army, especially since the next scenario is a defense/objective holding mission.  What can you tell me about Kans?  They look awesome but I haven't looked too closely at them.

In the long run, once we start getting into higher point games, I think I want to take a fast attack army with bikes and trukks and koptas with the loobas and lootas as long range fire support.

Offline dog_of_war

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Re: New Git
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2016, 10:05:07 AM »
If you are sticking with the gunline theme, I would switch the warboss for a big mek. At 750 points, having two HQs as a pretty big point sink. The big mek can attach to either the lootas or the lobbas and you could give give a kustom force field (KFF) for protection, especially if he's going to be in a battlewagon with the lootas, as the save transfers to the transport. If you are feeling a little riskier, you could give him a shokk attack gun (SAG). While definitely not reliable, its probably the most satisfying weapon in the game when it does work. I've never been consistently successful with one, especially at a lower points game, but man is it exciting to use.

While lobbas are great against imperial guard, I would switch to kannons. They are more versatile and you'll find the option for high strength/low AP to help against some daemon shenanigans.

The lootas shouldn't break so soon, if you use the battlewagon and if they get charged, mob rule should keep them in the fight a little longer, if they lose a round of combat. Beefing up the unit to a full 15 models, should help add a lot more dice even if you get a low random shot roll and they'll all fit in a battlewagon with your HQ.

Kans are great; decent armour, reasonable weaponry and relatively cheap. They do suffer from the cowardly grot rule, but if you take them in larger numbers and keep a deff dread close by, it usually doesn't hinder them. I'd save them for a higher points game, as you want to keep the mek gunz and lootas and if you add a battlewagon, that's your third heavy slot. At a higher points game, we can start talking about taking multiple combined arms detachments (CADs) to unlock more heavy slots for you.

Offline Ork E Nuff

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Re: New Git
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2016, 02:36:35 PM »
Robo:  Welcome to the horde!  It's a blast playing orks, it just takes time to develop your particular theme (or flavor/klan, etc.).  I've had some limited success running a gun line, but due to the static nature, it doesn't really win games, visa vie, grabbing objectives, line breaking, etc...Looking at your list, I agree with DOW, change your warboss for a big mek.  You might save some points, but if you kit him out right, he can be just as dangerous as any other HQ.  I recently fought an 1850 pt game for fun and fielded a BM with a klaw and shock attack gun.  The SAG really was a game changer and, if you can do it, is well worth the investment.  I also ran 25 grots w/2 runtherders.  They drew more fire by turn 2 than any other unit.  My static shoota unit (25 orks) was reduced to 12 really quick, even in cover.  Kanz paid for themselves as their bs is better than your orks, and in a mob, chain reaction explosions killed more foes than any other unit. 

When you pick them up, go with more boyz...I'm an old foot slogger and enjoy racing across the board with 2 or 3 units of 30.  Remember, there is only so many orks that can be taken out by a lascannon or plasmacannon during a turn.  Keep your mobz big and watch your cohesion.  Stay close enough for checks, but far enough apart that your units are completely covered by a large blast template...

But, remember, have more fun than your opponent and you'll do fine.

my two teef...
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Blood n Guts is nuffin more dan bio-d-gradible axle grease.....Remember, that which does not kill you, will only try harder the next time...I've named me attack squig "Skippy"....is that wrong?

Offline Roboknee77

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Re: New Git
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2016, 09:53:05 AM »
Thanks Ork E Nuff.  Glad to be here and learning.

After what you and Dog said, I think I'm going to change to a Big Mek.  A KFF on the lootas would be nice but that SAG looks like it could be fun.  As I'm learning things, I may not take an optimized army so I can more things out.

The next scenario I'm playing against Wyddr is a defensive one, where he has to assault into my territory to grab objectives.  I'm very amused by the idea of taking a bunch of Gretchin and plopping them on one of the objectives.  And Kans do seem pretty cool and the Grootzooka looks like a blast.  I think he may add flamers or a demon prince to his list but not sure which one.

I have a question about Lootas in a Battlewagon.  I looked through the rules but couldn't determine if because the lootas in the Battlewagon can fire at their regular BS when the Wagon moves or not?

Offline dog_of_war

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Re: New Git
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2016, 02:24:53 PM »
They can fire, but it will have to be snap shots, which is not that bad, because it's at a ballistic skill one less than their normal. I'll try to get a page number for you. Ideally you would keep the battlewagon stationary, unless you're moving away from a threat. You won't be moving towards the enemy because you don't want the lootas to get engaged. The most moving you'd want to do is pivot to point the highest armour towards the greatest threat. Luckily pivoting does not count as moving, so it doesn't affect the lootas shooting.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2016, 01:59:37 PM by dog_of_war »

Offline Roboknee77

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Re: New Git
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2016, 08:54:24 AM »
That's what I thought.  I know that some vehicles transfer traits to units in them/on them but it wasn't clear if units in a tank got the ability to shoot at full BS even when they moved.

Offline dog_of_war

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Re: New Git
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2016, 10:25:17 PM »
Just for your reference it's on page 80 of the Big Rule Book (BRB) under Fire Points. As you're very interested in how kans work, I'm going to rejig my list for a game tomorrow night to include all the kans I have and you can see how devastating the really are when I post the battle report.

Offline Roboknee77

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Re: New Git
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2016, 09:08:22 AM »
Cool, thanks for the clarification.

I look forward to reading that.  I'm very much considering taking a group of them for the finale with Wyddr.  And as much as a KFF on a Big Mek in a group of Lootas would help their survivability, I think I want to try out the Shock Attack Gun.

I'll probably be putting together my list this weekend.  Thanks for all the advice.

Offline dog_of_war

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Re: New Git
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2016, 09:45:50 AM »
In the case of orks, the best defense is usually a good offense.  :D

Look forward to seeing what list you build.

Offline Roboknee77

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Re: New Git
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2016, 03:21:59 PM »
So, I've got 2 ideas to try, both are variations on my starting army.

Big Mek w/ Shock Attack Gun, Gitfinder, Bosspole, 'Eavy Armor & Da Finkin Cap
12 Shoota Boyz w/Big Shoota, Nob w/ Bosspole
12 Shoota Boyz w/Big Shoota, Nob w/ Bosspole
15 Lootas
3 Killa Kans w/ Grotzookas
19 Gretchin w/ Runtherder

It's 750 points and I'm thinking of the Finkin' Cap because a few of the Strategic Traits would be helpful in the scenario I'm going to be playing.

The second army is similar.


Big Mek w/ Shock Attack Gun, Gitfinder, Bosspole, 'Eavy Armor
12 Shoota Boyz w/Big Shoota, Nob w/ Bosspole
12 Shoota Boyz w/Big Shoota, Nob w/ Bosspole
12 Shoota Boyz w/Big Shoota, Nob w/ Bosspole
10 Lootas
3 Killa Kans w/ Grotzookas
10 Gretchin w/ Runtherder

This comes to 745 points and there are more units for my adversary to worry about.  After my last battle, I want to have a lot more pieces on the board watching each others backs and can weather the loss of a couple units while still be able to fill the air with Dakka.

Offline dog_of_war

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Re: New Git
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2016, 04:18:12 PM »
Both lists are very viable. If it was me, I would take the second list, but drop the third unit of boyz and take a deff dread, especially since you're keen on taking some kans. He will act as a bullet magnet, keeping your other units from harms way and helps the kans from losing their nerve. A high armoured vehicle at a low point level game will also be very strong, in comparison to using one at a higher points level.

I would also put the big mek with the grots. Having him join the lootas make them a big target. The grots won't likely run with him there and they act like extra wounds for him.

Offline Roboknee77

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Re: New Git
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2016, 04:27:43 PM »
Good point about the Deff Dread.  It would be cheaper than the boys, give me some more points to play around with, and make a bullet magnet.  Thanks Dog!

Offline dog_of_war

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Re: New Git
« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2016, 09:14:48 AM »
If you're going to take a deff dread, I've had my best results when going with four klaws. That way you won't hesitate running him every turn and he won't disappoint you in combat, even I'd you have some bad rolling. (Seven attacks on the charge is nothing to laugh at.)

But, since you're running a gun line army, you may be best running with big shootas. Ork ballistic skill is lack lustre and upgrading to rokkits or kustom mega blasters you're most likely to not see many successful shots. A scorcha is good, if you expect you'll be facing an assault army or you're running one yourself.

You can keep your dread near the kans to stop them from chickening out and provide a good counter punch to an assault. Keeping the kans in front of the dread will also provide him with a decent cover save.

Offline Roboknee77

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Re: New Git
« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2016, 01:19:16 PM »
If it were a higher point battle I think I would try four klaws.  At this point level and the style army I'm running, shootas will give me good versatility.

I'm tempted by the skorchas since I'll be playing against demons and without loobas my opponent may be more likely to klump his forces closer together, meaning more hits.  Plus, no to hit rolls on template weapons, which would offset the lousy ballistic skill of the the Orks.  The downside, limited range.

The scenario we'll be playing is also one where all the objectives are in my half of the board, so he will have to get move close to me to take them.  Oy, so much to think about.

Okay, here's a question, Grot Riggers?  Any good for dredds since they give it an It Will Not Die save?

Offline dog_of_war

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Re: New Git
« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2016, 01:44:29 PM »
It depends. If you think he can kill your dread in a single turn, then the grot riggers are pointless. If you think he'll have to whittle away at his hull points, the the riggers are a must have.

Did you notice a lot of high strength weapons, especially meltas, the last two games? Three successful shots can remove him from the table, but if you use the kans as cover, it has the chance to save some of those. It may turn out to be a waste of points, if the dice gods are not in your favour, but unless he has a ton of high strength and/or melta weapons, I'd pay the few points for a chance of higher survivability.

Offline Roboknee77

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Re: New Git
« Reply #17 on: July 19, 2016, 02:06:34 PM »
I've only played about 6 battles so I really don't know too much about other armies.

I saw heralds, horrors and screamers in his army last time with the possibility of summoning more units.  The first game only lasted a turn and a half and I only lost six orks.  The second game lasted 4 turns and I lost a unit each turn almost, mostly due to summoned flamers. Mostly I saw witchfire attacks and flames.  I don't think anything was really high damage.  He mostly whittled me down when I wasn't klumped too closely.

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Re: New Git
« Reply #18 on: July 19, 2016, 06:36:25 PM »
As Robo's opponent, I can say this: the advantage and disadvantages of playing Tzeentch Daemons is that I can't easily predict what powers I will get, however I do have access to high strength beam attacks, blasts, and even occasionally Strength D shots.

Or I might roll none of those things and I'll have to see if the Screamers can eat walkers in close-combat. Not ideal, but certainly possible.

Offline dog_of_war

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Re: New Git
« Reply #19 on: July 19, 2016, 11:27:41 PM »
Instead of the riggers, let's see if you could squeeze one more kan in there.

I've never taken boss poles myself. Now I normally take huge mobs of boyz, but you're still only giving yourself a 2/3 chance to reroll on the mob rule table that where most of the results aren't positive anyways.

Dropping the Da Finkin Kap and git finder as well, should give you a few more. You're using a blast template, so the extra BS doesn't give you much. I would also consider dropping the grots, which would give you enough for that fourth kan, which I would take over all those upgrades, including grot riggers. This should also give some extra points for some more shoota boyz and if you're willing to drop the mob upgrades too, that's almost 3 boyz per squad you could add. As you wouldn't be using a boss pole and you're not kitting the nob with any extra equipment, it would make sense to just take more boyz.

It would look something like this.

Big Mek w/ SAG, eavy armour

Shootas x15 w/ big shoota
Shootas x15 w/ big shoota

Killa Kans w/ grotzooka x4
Deff Dread w/ big shootas
Lootas x10

You'll have to put the big mek with the lootas, but he'll most likely be concentrating on those walkers.

 


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