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Author Topic: Accuracy of Dawn of War (games) campaigns fluff-wise?  (Read 4992 times)

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Offline Gornon

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Re: Accuracy of Dawn of War (games) campaigns fluff-wise?
« Reply #40 on: January 5, 2010, 06:19:50 PM »
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As of references, since most fluff is from the marines codex, where else would you expect me to find references?

The Black Library, for one.  Old White Dwarfs, the Main Rulebook, Imperial Armor are other examples.

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However if you like, go read Brothers of the Snake (novel) or the Soul Drinker series (especially the third volume) to see how pathetic IG is compared to SM.

Go read Gaunt's Ghosts and watch I.G. shred Chaos Marines.  It's even more canon than either of your novels because GW has produced figures for the Ghosts and has background to the Ghosts in the I.G. Dex; they used to have rules.  Still, I think the Ghost stories are exaggerated.  A grain of salt is needed when reading black library novels.  Each author wants to make his or her protagonists 'awesome' and so we get them doing things way out of proportion to where their abilities should be.  This somewhat applies to Codices, too.  The best and most balanced view is where the army in question is secondary to the main characters.  I rather like the presentation of the Guard and Marines in Esienhorn, for instance.

It's not that fact that I.G. are inferior to Marines I am arguing, but the fact that your statement implies they spend their time whimpering for Marines to save them, which is very false.  Read any story with the I.G. as protagonists or even secondary or tertiary characters and you won't ever see them doing that.  Guard are professional and competent and the fact that the Imperium's greatest conquest, the Macharian Crusade was done by the I.G. completely is proof of that.  Further proof comes from the fact that the I.G. fight most of the Imperium's battles and are the backbone of the Imperial military.  If the Imperium's core army was sucky and pathetic, well, it stands to reason that the Imperium would have crumbled before 10,000 years.

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"our prayers have been answered! Here come the SM!"

How do you know that they were praying for the Marines specifically?  They certainly were praying for salvation from the Emperor.  Most likely, they prayed that the Emperor would send someone, anyone to save them.  It was the fact that help had arrived, not that the help was specifically Marines is what caused them to rejoice.  They probably would have reacted with similar jubilation if a massive Imperial Navy flotilla appeared with transports loaded with Cadians led by Creed.
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Offline Koval, Master Verispex

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Re: Accuracy of Dawn of War (games) campaigns fluff-wise?
« Reply #41 on: January 6, 2010, 12:53:54 AM »
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However if you like, go read Brothers of the Snake (novel) or the Soul Drinker series (especially the third volume) to see how pathetic IG is compared to SM.

Go read Gaunt's Ghosts and watch I.G. shred Chaos Marines.  It's even more canon than either of your novels because GW has produced figures for the Ghosts and has background to the Ghosts in the I.G. Dex; they used to have rules.  Still, I think the Ghost stories are exaggerated.  A grain of salt is needed when reading black library novels.  Each author wants to make his or her protagonists 'awesome' and so we get them doing things way out of proportion to where their abilities should be.  This somewhat applies to Codices, too.  The best and most balanced view is where the army in question is secondary to the main characters.  I rather like the presentation of the Guard and Marines in Esienhorn, for instance.
I'm quite fond of how the lone Chaos Marine in Ice Guard is portrayed -- hard as nails and ridiculously strong, not to mention how he gets at least two Crowning Moments Of Awesome (one, lifting up the protagonists' truck and tipping it over -- which is more epic than I make it sound -- and two, being run over and shot to pieces, and still Not Quite Dead). I think The Traitor's Hand also does a fair job of it, but then again, that's a Cain book, so I'm understandably biased in its favour on the grounds that it's funny.

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It's not that fact that I.G. are inferior to Marines I am arguing, but the fact that your statement implies they spend their time whimpering for Marines to save them, which is very false.  Read any story with the I.G. as protagonists or even secondary or tertiary characters and you won't ever see them doing that.  Guard are professional and competent and the fact that the Imperium's greatest conquest, the Macharian Crusade was done by the I.G. completely is proof of that.  Further proof comes from the fact that the I.G. fight most of the Imperium's battles and are the backbone of the Imperial military.  If the Imperium's core army was sucky and pathetic, well, it stands to reason that the Imperium would have crumbled before 10,000 years.
Also from the original Dawn of War, "We are the Imperial Guard. It is time we started acting like it!" -- sums it up rather nicely, I'd say...

Offline legionnaire

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Re: Accuracy of Dawn of War (games) campaigns fluff-wise?
« Reply #42 on: January 6, 2010, 01:58:22 PM »
Well i have a few problems.....right now with the guard vs marines argument.

For one ice guard was a rather bland book and lets take a minute and say well there was only one marine and well the main group in the story is a squad of guardsman not a regiment not a platoon a squad on a mission who get it done somewhat(note i will not spoil the ending). Yes the beginning deals with a regiment and later in the book they meet another regiment. Yet at the heart of the story its a single squad of guardsmen.

Also in the first dawn of war game the guardsmen on this planet where in fact PDF. Which are two different forces. Guardsmen in fluff are the best of a planets military(varies from planet to planet) where as the PDF varies on a planets wealth and leader of how strong it is.
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The campaign begins with Colonel Brom and his 37th Tartarus Planetary Defense Force Regiment
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/PDF
So Dawn of war 1 doesn't really stick with the imperial guard/pdf story right so i generally don't count that point for from that respect it got a little confussing.
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Offline Gornon

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Re: Accuracy of Dawn of War (games) campaigns fluff-wise?
« Reply #43 on: January 6, 2010, 05:10:28 PM »
I need to yell at myself here for this, but we should be wary of dragging this thread off topic.  Guard vs Marines has been gone over before, so I don't want this thread to turn into this.  The short way to the end result is that Imperial Guard are not as good as Marines, but by how much depends on the author and the Regiment in question.  Everything is highly subjective.  We, including me, should not drag the thread into territory covered and flamed over countless times.

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So Dawn of war 1 doesn't really stick with the imperial guard/pdf story right so i generally don't count that point for from that respect it got a little confussing.

Well, the story does start with I.G.  We get about a 10 second movie with the I.G. running, the Colonel shooting a few, and then the Marines arriving.  The Guard feature in the story, but really don't take part.  Winter Assault is generally considered a better representation of the I.G.  I especially like the Commissar.  To me, he feels like a Commissar.  Sure, he caps I.G. for cowardice.  He also is an inspirational leader.  I think a good Commissar should mimic him, stubborn, but not stupid, with his men being inspired and fearful of him in equal measures.
« Last Edit: January 6, 2010, 05:37:30 PM by Gornon »
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Offline dalaran1991

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Re: Accuracy of Dawn of War (games) campaigns fluff-wise?
« Reply #44 on: January 6, 2010, 05:39:07 PM »
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I need to yell at myself here for this, but we should not get off topic.  Guard vs Marines has been gone over before, so I don't want this thread to turn into this.  The short way to the end result is that Imperial Guard are not as good as Marines, but by how much depends on the author and the Regiment in question.  Everything is highly subjective.  We, including me, should not drag the thread into territory covered and flamed over countless times.
Agree. And I didn't mean that IG are no-good soldier, only that SM are better and that they THINK they are better. If anyone has completed DOW2, Sergeant Avitus clearly has a very, very looking-down-on opinion concerning IG.

One more thing in DOW that I find quite suspicious is the life span of SM. True, they can live for a very,very long time. But in DC Davian THule was a young captain (young by SM standard, must be somewhere around 40) and all the 3 sergeants in DOW 2 fought with him. In DOW 2, it said that the captain has been over 400 years of service, that also meant all the sarges are too. And their hair are still not hoary, except for Gabriel (one may assume he is well over 600 years). Checking back with the codex and BL fluff, I don't think that SM lives this long. Chaplain cassius is 400 years and he looks quite ancient and tattered, and is also one of the oldest members of the Ultra.
Anyone has any idea what those secret Thule found on Kronus were?

Offline Gornon

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Re: Accuracy of Dawn of War (games) campaigns fluff-wise?
« Reply #45 on: January 6, 2010, 05:46:38 PM »
GW has never really given us a Space Marine age limit, so I can't answer that.  We knew Dante of the Blood Angels is about 1,200, but Angels are long lived for Marines.  Logan of the Space Wolves is called the 'old wolf' and is 750 and their Chief Wolf Priest is even older.

As for the second, I think Thule may have found out that the Blood Ravens are Loyalist Word Bearers.  At least that is what Alpharius is implying when the World Bearers attack the Marine citadel.
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Offline dalaran1991

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Re: Accuracy of Dawn of War (games) campaigns fluff-wise?
« Reply #46 on: January 6, 2010, 06:28:35 PM »
I thought that was just Eliphas's (not Alpharius sorry ;D) taunting Thule. But it might well be a possibility.
However if we consider the background of BR and WB I see very little similarity. Notably BR has lots of psykers, so we can hint at the Thounsand Sons. Considering the Thousand Sons were, at the outbreak of the horus heresy, still loyalist (Arihman tried to warn the Emperor using sorcery), this sounds more probable. The TS were forced to join Chaos when the Emperor send other legions to capture them.
"Welcome, Captain. Have u seen the truth at last?"--> this may just generally mean they are loyalist from any of the traitor legions. My horus heresy is a little bit rusty, so I would leave this to anyone who can tell which legions has loyalist elements (Aside from the unforgiven, of course)

Offline Gornon

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Re: Accuracy of Dawn of War (games) campaigns fluff-wise?
« Reply #47 on: January 6, 2010, 07:33:40 PM »
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I thought that was just Eliphas's (not Alpharius sorry ;D) taunting Thule. But it might well be a possibility.

My bad.  I was feeling so damn lazy I just couldn't be bothered to make the extra 6 clicks needed to look the info up.  I also agree that the 1k Sons are more likely.
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Offline Sir_Godspeed

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Re: Accuracy of Dawn of War (games) campaigns fluff-wise?
« Reply #48 on: January 7, 2010, 01:50:41 PM »
Well, there's always the Death Guard-gone-Deathwatch-or-whatever, but that's just pulling Chapters out of the ass, especially since Relic probably didn't think of that background when they created the BRs.

The thing I've always had a little problem with are these "X chapters has a lot of Y, A chapter has no B whatsoever". Is it the geneseed or the planet recruited from? The BR background states that they have strange requirements for choosing recruitment worlds, which mean that the large amount of psykers does not have anything to do with the geneseed at all, but the recruits (as it presumably did with the 1k Sons as well, Prospero wasn't your average world after all - psykers were revered and generally trusted even it seems.)

Offline ArchKnightLeon

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Re: Accuracy of Dawn of War (games) campaigns fluff-wise?
« Reply #49 on: February 4, 2010, 12:53:12 PM »
Where has the conversation gone to....

I havent played dawn of war II yet but the book was a little screwey, taking only ONE child from each recruitment world?
Almost unthinkable in most chapters i presume.

Dawn of war and Winter assault have pretty weird chaos lords Dark Crusade's Lord must have done something right coz hes coming back in DOWII-Chaos Rising.
But Soulstorm's lord takes the cake.
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Re: Accuracy of Dawn of War (games) campaigns fluff-wise?
« Reply #50 on: February 4, 2010, 12:56:47 PM »
It's been a month and so let this thread rest and regain its strength before the DoW II expansion comes out. We'd hate for Chaos to not get the welcome it deserves.

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