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Author Topic: 9/11 - The introduction of the police state and the day of high treason  (Read 3906 times)

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Offline Calus Drakin

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Re: 9/11 - The introduction of the police state and the day of high treason
« Reply #40 on: January 14, 2006, 05:44:09 PM »
How about this, Bush has proven himself to be one of the less competant president's we've had and it is truely disgusting the way he has and continues to take advantage of the tradgedy that happened on 9/11 to push his and his party's agenda's. He really needs to find other reasons besides 9/11 to justify most of the actions he takes.



Didn't Franklin Rooselvelt justify America's involvement in World War II with Pearl Harbor?

He did, but WWII had already been going on for a couple years at the point Pearl Harbor was attacked and it was already being debated whether or not America should try to remain neutral or join in.

I was not around during that era, but I don't think Franklin Roosevelt was shouting Pearl Harbor as a reason for everything he did the rest of the time he was in office.
Considering my chosen armies are Vampire Counts and Night Lords, yes, I think "Back from the dead" is probably the most accurate description of my return.

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Offline Chuckles, The Space Marine Clown

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Re: 9/11 - The introduction of the police state and the day of high treason
« Reply #41 on: January 14, 2006, 06:45:01 PM »
@Assault Terminator: Hey, I'm arguing for Bush here (oh god... I feel dirty). I don't think he masterminded (hah! Like he could mastermind anything) 9/11, merely that he fumbled it (he ignored a frankly obscene number of warnings that it was coming), and the goodwill the world had towards America.  I'm just saying, don't get locked into the self-pity and "you're with us or against us" attitude of Anakin Skywalk- er, I mean Israel.

How about this, Bush has proven himself to be one of the less competant president's we've had and it is truely disgusting the way he has and continues to take advantage of the tradgedy that happened on 9/11 to push his and his party's agenda's. He really needs to find other reasons besides 9/11 to justify most of the actions he takes.



Didn't Franklin Rooselvelt justify America's involvement in World War II with Pearl Harbor?

No, he used it to convince people to join the war. He was in favour of joining long before Pearl Harbour.

I'm gald you raised FDR and WW2, because it's an issue that's been preying on my mind since the start of the war. See, in the case of WW2, I think about the isolationists with a certain amount of contempt for being willing to leave millions of people to die without helping. But in the case of the war on Iraq, I'm going the other way, saying the Yanks should keep their noses out. Does this make me a hypocrite? Discuss.
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Offline Calus Drakin

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Re: 9/11 - The introduction of the police state and the day of high treason
« Reply #42 on: January 14, 2006, 08:54:25 PM »
The thing about WWII is that we sat by on our own little continent, unwilling to help because we didn't see how the Nazi advance into Europe could actually come onto our territory. I can think about that with a little bit of disgust myself because ( As far as I'm aware ) we were the last ones to join into the fight and we still might not have if not for Pearl Harbor.

In Iraq, we went in with everyone telling us not to. There was no war already going on before we invaded a foreign country. There were no signs of that country planning an attack on us or on one of our allies. When questioned, we flip-flopped on several excuses for our actions before we finally decided on one, and that reason is still questionable.

Pearl Harbor was an attack made during a war, which is what it was whether we were actively involved in it at that point or not. 9/11 was a terrorist attack carried out by extremist religious fanatics during a period of what was otherwise peace.

Except for the fact that both were attacks of one form or another carried out against an otherwise unprepared United States of America on our own soil, there really is very little to compare between the two incidents.

That's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

To answer the question, no Luke, I don't think that makes you a hypocrite  :D
« Last Edit: January 14, 2006, 09:02:31 PM by Calus Drakin »
Considering my chosen armies are Vampire Counts and Night Lords, yes, I think "Back from the dead" is probably the most accurate description of my return.

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Offline Kojiro

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Re: 9/11 - The introduction of the police state and the day of high treason
« Reply #43 on: January 14, 2006, 10:07:05 PM »
Unaware.  Hell of course we were aware of Pearl Harbor.  We heard it from the Russians when the attack would take place.  Heck, there were even warnings on the first day.  I believe that America let Pearl Harbor happen for two reasons, one is that we didn't want the Japanese to know that we had broken their codes and (although this theory is still debated) to create a national feeling of anti Axis in America.

Offline Calus Drakin

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Re: 9/11 - The introduction of the police state and the day of high treason
« Reply #44 on: January 14, 2006, 11:22:51 PM »
Unaware.  Hell of course we were aware of Pearl Harbor.  We heard it from the Russians when the attack would take place.  Heck, there were even warnings on the first day.  I believe that America let Pearl Harbor happen for two reasons, one is that we didn't want the Japanese to know that we had broken their codes and (although this theory is still debated) to create a national feeling of anti Axis in America.

This is news to me, do you have any links to support this ?

Now I'm going to look like a hypocrite.

Another theory that I have heard of, is that the attack on Pearl Harbor by the Japanese was actually a retalitory attack. A destroyer on patrol around Hawaii sunk a japanese submarine when it failed to identify itself after being spotted. I believe it was on a documentary on The History Channel. Although unfortunately I don't have any links to provide. 
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Offline AssaultTerminator555

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Re: 9/11 - The introduction of the police state and the day of high treason
« Reply #45 on: January 14, 2006, 11:41:19 PM »
Ahhhh... I see. Sorry guys, my fault.

Well, I believe that it all depended on the years. In the 40's, the United States wasn't classified as a world power yet, and was content to let other nations handle their own business. Now, however, the U.S. is a major world power and can't stand other competition and like Victorian Britain, Ancient China, and other strong nations in the past, we butt in whenever we feel a threat against us.  :P
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Offline Devern, The Unsung Hero

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Re: 9/11 - The introduction of the police state and the day of high treason
« Reply #46 on: January 15, 2006, 12:37:19 AM »
Well, Japan attacked Pearl Habor because of the embargo the US had placed on them, which was cutting their supply of oil IIRC, but I could be wrong.
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Offline Chuckles, The Space Marine Clown

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Re: 9/11 - The introduction of the police state and the day of high treason
« Reply #47 on: January 15, 2006, 06:00:35 AM »
The Americans did know Pearl Harbour was coming (the even, obviously not the place), but they let it happen because they thought that if they let the Nips know they had a source providing information they'd lose the source. Common problem with intel types, they want to protect the integrity of the source over actually using the data.
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Offline cubbie

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Re: 9/11 - The introduction of the police state and the day of high treason
« Reply #48 on: January 15, 2006, 08:08:29 AM »
Well, Japan attacked Pearl Habor because of the embargo the US had placed on them, which was cutting their supply of oil IIRC, but I could be wrong.

Another beautiful example of americas crappy forign policy creating emnities that result in "unprovoked attacks", much like Sept 11th attacks.
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Offline Devern, The Unsung Hero

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Re: 9/11 - The introduction of the police state and the day of high treason
« Reply #49 on: January 15, 2006, 11:39:43 AM »
Well, I wouldn't say it was crappy foreign policy.  They didn't get involved, but it doesn't mean they agree with the actions, so they refuse to trade.  It's actually quite logical.  But, you should expect some retaliation, especially when Japan was something of a world power at the time.
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Offline Kojiro

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Re: 9/11 - The introduction of the police state and the day of high treason
« Reply #50 on: January 15, 2006, 02:33:09 PM »
Thank you Skyscraper, for supporting the America knew Pearl Harbor was Coming Theory.  Yes, America probably knew it was coming and they could have prevented it, but in doing so give away the knowledge that they had broken the Japanese codes.  As the saying goes knowledge is power, you really don't want to give away any information to the enemy. 

Offline Devern, The Unsung Hero

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Re: 9/11 - The introduction of the police state and the day of high treason
« Reply #51 on: January 15, 2006, 06:40:10 PM »
I have to write an essay about whether knowledge is truly power...curses.
It's a good arguement against it.  While you may have knowledge, it doesn't give you the power you might think.  Sure the americans may have known it was coming, but to keep their secret, they were powerless to stop the attack.
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