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Author Topic: Mixed race units and power that target a specific race (fortune)  (Read 1080 times)

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Offline WisdomLS

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Ok this question is about eldar psychic powers but may aply to other powers in the game that I haven't thought of.

The farseer power fortune states that it can only target an eldar unit, so this would stop it effecting any units belonging to any allied units that they may have brought with them to battle.

What if an allied independent character, say a dark eldar archon joins an otherwise eldar unit, does it still count as an eldar unit? Does it count as a dark eldar unit as well or doesn't it count as either any more.

I'm unsure so thought I'd see what others thought.

Offline Galef

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Re: Mixed race units and power that target a specific race (fortune)
« Reply #1 on: July 6, 2012, 10:25:52 AM »
I think the jury is still out on whether Fortune & Guide are refering to "Codex: Eldar" units or "Eldar" as a race.

Nonetheless, in your example, the Archon would indeed gain Fortune as he was with an Eldar unit.  Since the unit can clearly be Fortuned and Allied DE IC's can join them, they benifit from all abilites effecting that unit.
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Offline Shas'Oink

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Re: Mixed race units and power that target a specific race (fortune)
« Reply #2 on: July 6, 2012, 10:53:14 AM »
I would disagree on the following grounds:

  • Models (ICs) that join a unit become part of that unit for all respects. The combined models become a single unit.
  • The Eldar psychic powers clearly state that you select a friendly eldar unit as your target.
  • A unit joined by a non-eldar model (read, anything not within the eldar codex) is no longer an eldar unit. It is a unit composed of eldar and other models. This would therefore not meet the criteria set out in the eldar powers rules.
  • Because the combined unit is no longer an "eldar" unit (it is a mixed one) you cannot select the unit as the target for the power.

Note, this would not necessarily extend to the "generic" powers in the rule book as they not differentiate between races but simply friendly or enemy models / units. It is also worth noting that there are some powers there that are not only similar in rules to the eldar powers, but also... better. Can anyone say 12" range Guide?


On the point about whether or not "dark eldar" models count as eldar then this is a no. simply put dark eldar are dark eldar, eldar are eldar. Exactly how space marines are space marines, whilst dark angels are dark angels.

yes, both dark angels and dark eldar might be "types" of eldar and space marines... but they are, in game mechanics not. One should not be confused between fluff and rules terminology.
 

Offline WisdomLS

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Re: Mixed race units and power that target a specific race (fortune)
« Reply #3 on: July 6, 2012, 12:36:18 PM »
I completely agree with 0ink in that Dark eldar are a seperate race to Eldar and are thus distinguished between in the rules.

On the issue of targeting, it can get a little muddier, say you fortune a unit comprised of only eldar models, it can then in the subsequent movement phase be joined by a allied friendly IC who would then benefit from the fortune as he is now part of the unit.

Offline Cavalier

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Re: Mixed race units and power that target a specific race (fortune)
« Reply #4 on: July 6, 2012, 12:50:53 PM »
But does the new allies system which states that battle brother allies are considered friendly units for purposes of psychic powers, trump the codex? There is so much redefinition due to added force orgs. and allies I would think the battle brothers rule would in fact trump. 
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Offline FearTheWarPigs

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Re: Mixed race units and power that target a specific race (fortune)
« Reply #5 on: July 6, 2012, 03:43:18 PM »
Codex always wins until it gets FAQed.  So Eldar specific remains Eldar specific.

@ Oink
"A unit joined by a non-eldar model (read, anything not within the eldar codex) is no longer an eldar unit. It is a unit composed of eldar and other models. This would therefore not meet the criteria set out in the eldar powers rules."

To my knowledge nothing in any rulebook, codex or faq reference the concept of mixed unit types.  So I'm not sure there is a precedence to argue the unit is no longer Eldar.

Personally I would play it as the unit gets fortune but the Dark Eldar attached IC wouldn't benefit from it.

This is based on the logic for the other 6th ed faqs.  Ex: Space Wolf IC joins a Blood Angels squad with a priest.  The unit still has FnP but the SW IC won't benefit from it.

Offline Galef

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Re: Mixed race units and power that target a specific race (fortune)
« Reply #6 on: July 6, 2012, 05:14:44 PM »
Also check out BRB pg 39: IC's & ongoing effects

Until FAQ'ed otherwise a DE character that starts in an Eldar unit would gain Fortune, however if he joins after the unit is Fortuned, he would not gain it.
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Offline Shas'Oink

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Re: Mixed race units and power that target a specific race (fortune)
« Reply #7 on: July 6, 2012, 07:08:47 PM »
To my knowledge nothing in any rulebook, codex or faq reference the concept of mixed unit types.  So I'm not sure there is a precedence to argue the unit is no longer Eldar.

you are right. in that there is nothing to say what to do about a mixed race unit. but i don't htink that is important, in this case a unit with models from different races is factually made up of more than one race. If a rule says to pick a unit belonging to a certain race... then one joined by a character from another race would not meet this criteria so imo could not be chosen as the target.

WIth that in mind, and with Galef's excellent rule checking reg ongoing effects I think we can say that not only can the unit in the OP not be the target of fortune, but that a character than joins a fortuned unit would never gain the benefit of the power either.

 


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